Aesir
Smash Master
Stop being an idiot
60/40 is pretty one sided.
You were making it sound like marth vs sheik which it definitely isn't.
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Marth vs shiek
- Thread starter BrandonOwnageking
- Start date
60/40 is pretty one sided.
You were making it sound like marth vs sheik which it definitely isn't.
Impact009
Smash Journeyman
60/40 is not one-sided.
Since it's impossible to get an exact statistic, and nobody's going to round to the nearest 5%, 60/40 is as close to slight advantage as you can get by numbers within this community. **** would be 90/10, and a decent advantage would be 70/30.
60/40 = 3/2. Assuming that ratio is 100% accurate, this means that in a set of 5 matches, Falco will win 3 and Sheik will win 2.
I completely agree that space animals have the advantage, but it's far from one-sided.
Aesir
Smash Master
60/40 is like saying falco wins on 4 stages and sheik wins on 2.
NeighborhoodP
Smash Hero
Dude, what are you talking about? Are you so prideful that you can't admit when you're wrong, or do you REALLY think 60/40 is "pretty one sided"? LMFAO. Wow. I don't know which is more pathetic, to be honest with you.
I don't even know what the latter comment is supposed to mean.
Aesir
Smash Master
How am I wrong? LOL
60/40 being completely 1 sided is stretching it, but its a definite advantage.
and my earlier comment ment 60/40 is like saying falco wins on 4 stages and sheik has 2 >_>
Impact009
Smash Journeyman
Please redo your math, or look at mine. 60/40 is exactly saying that Falco will win 60% of his matches against Sheik and lose the other 40%. Thus, in a set of 5 matches (which is the highest I've ever seen for brackets, usually in grand finals), Falco will win 3 matches and Sheik will win 2 matches.
This proportion also states that Falco will gain a .2 match lead for each additional match that is played in a set. However, since most sets don't go beyond 5 matches (most are double-elimination, thus two losses and you're out), we'd end up extrapolating if we try to calculate "the long-run."
The fact remains that a .2 lead-per-match is negligible in small sets.
The fact also remains that 60/40 means Falco will NEVER win twice as many matches as Sheik, assuming the proportion is true.
Vincent Vega
Smash Journeyman
Lol wow this thread has gotten too good. Lets talk about the Fox vs Peach match up now or something. Just as long as we don't touch Marth. 
Impact009
Smash Journeyman
Since editing seems to time out, I guess I have to double-post.
You were wrong to say that 60/40 = 4/2. Your opinion in saying that Falco ***** Sheik is wrong when compared to the majority of gamers' connotations. One-sided = Not having a chance. Since almost nothing will ever be a perfect 50% to 50%, are we to say that every situation is one-sided?
NeighborhoodP
Smash Hero
Thank you for proving my point. Get *****.
drephen beat dashizwiz, lambchop, forward. (falco)
drephen lost to kdj, km, pc chris (fox)
D
Deleted member
Guest
wait, characters with identical weight and falling speed, but one is easier to combo? you really have absolutely no idea at all what you're talking about in any way. You're embarrassing yourself, just stop.
To save time, I concur at every point Aesir has made, including and reinforcing the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Aesir
Smash Master
Like I said I admitted it was a stretch before.
My 4-2 scenario is close enough.
Stages falco beats sheik on: PS, YS, FD.
Stages sheik beats falco on: FoD, BF.
Dreamland is a toss up.
*recalls the convo he had with pc about you being dumb*
Okay. *listens to best ec falco, rather wc sheik*
Sounds like you mixed recent tourneys with past tourneys, I know for a fact forward doesn't really travel anymore so that had to be have been a while ago.
Also PC Still uses Falco do you know for a fact he was using fox against Drephen?
NeighborhoodP
Smash Hero
Aesis, dude, GET SOME LOGIC. Jesus christ.
You do realize you're impyling that by accepting pc chris' on this smash-related issue, he basically retains authority over anything smash-related? So basically any opinion he has on a matchup is right just because he's good?
That's akin to the logic that ex-athletes make great analysts just because they played the game and theoretically know more, when the fact is the majority of them are horrendous and don't know much.
Try again.
lmfao @ 60/40 = 4 wins to 2. Mow apparently likes agreeing with people who lack basic mathematical skills.
You do realize you're impyling that by accepting pc chris' on this smash-related issue, he basically retains authority over anything smash-related? So basically any opinion he has on a matchup is right just because he's good?
That's akin to the logic that ex-athletes make great analysts just because they played the game and theoretically know more, when the fact is the majority of them are horrendous and don't know much.
Try again.
lmfao @ 60/40 = 4 wins to 2. Mow apparently likes agreeing with people who lack basic mathematical skills.
Europhoria
Smash Lord
Basing a match up on how 1 player does at it isn't a good justification. I could follow your logic and make Jiggs/Sheik a 10-0 for Jiggs by citing Mango.
Aesir
Smash Master
lawl I was up for 24 hours when I posted. =(
Like I said before falco is almost garenteed a win on those 3 stages, DL is a toss up and the other two are pro shiek.
Pc's track record for beating sheiks, with falco his high.
How is that illogical to think he's right? Maybe if he didn't use falco I'd see your point.
And your Sports analogy was a failure.
I'm personally getting tired of this, this isn't even the falco or shiek boards. =\
You think it's in falcos favor I think it's in falcos favor more then you do. Can we just leave it at that? it could very well just come down to experience more then anything.
Like I said before falco is almost garenteed a win on those 3 stages, DL is a toss up and the other two are pro shiek.
Pc's track record for beating sheiks, with falco his high.
How is that illogical to think he's right? Maybe if he didn't use falco I'd see your point.
And your Sports analogy was a failure.
I'm personally getting tired of this, this isn't even the falco or shiek boards. =\
You think it's in falcos favor I think it's in falcos favor more then you do. Can we just leave it at that? it could very well just come down to experience more then anything.
Impact009
Smash Journeyman
It's just the fact that you try to validate incorrect statements. 60/40 being one-sided is more than a stretch, and 4-2 being "close enough" is extremely bias when you're working with small sets. Yes, one match does make a huge difference in best out of 3 or 5 matches.
Pros' views obviously have more weight through experience. Just remember that they're not always right. This doesn't mean that I don't agree with Chris though, because I do (minus the ****). I'll stick by the numbers tfat the community can agree on.
Pros' views obviously have more weight through experience. Just remember that they're not always right. This doesn't mean that I don't agree with Chris though, because I do (minus the ****). I'll stick by the numbers tfat the community can agree on.
NeighborhoodP
Smash Hero
the issue isn't even whether i'm right or wrong -- seriously, i couldn't care less -- it's just that you make blanket statements and don't follow them up with anything yet think you have refuted me. it's like basic logic and stuff.
Aesir
Smash Master
Acutally I did I mentioned how Falco's pressure game shuts her down, then I mentioned the stages falco wins on.
Did you want to know at what precent something works at?
I was using PC as a "blanket" as you put it because
1. I was tired, like really tired.
2. He's usually right and more a less I agreed with him due to my own experience
3. Because I'm jstu cool like that.
Impact: I said close enough because Dreamland can be seen as a toss up I personally find DL a good falco stage. Whether or not Sheik can live to *insert stupid percent here*
Hence why I said 4-2 I wasn't including counter picks just the neutral stages.
Did you want to know at what precent something works at?
I was using PC as a "blanket" as you put it because
1. I was tired, like really tired.
2. He's usually right and more a less I agreed with him due to my own experience
3. Because I'm jstu cool like that.
Impact: I said close enough because Dreamland can be seen as a toss up I personally find DL a good falco stage. Whether or not Sheik can live to *insert stupid percent here*
Hence why I said 4-2 I wasn't including counter picks just the neutral stages.
JBM falcon08
Smash Master
why are you talking about falco on the marth boards vs sheik? everything you are saying is correct aesir, but lets get back on topic.
people need to learn to have some pride and play their mains marth against sheik, its not as bad as it ever used to be.
people need to learn to have some pride and play their mains marth against sheik, its not as bad as it ever used to be.
Cancel
Smash Journeyman
I would totally have to agree on this one.
NeighborhoodP
Smash Hero
even when people already disprove your points? uhhh repeating the same thing doesn't make it true.
sheik still has a way easier time on falco than fox. it's similar to ICs; if you play it perfectly it's really not that much of a counter. But even if you play perfectly against Fox he simply has way too many cheap advantages against Sheik and can kill her too easily.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
It's more likely that you expose yourself to those cheap advantages and get killed too easily. If it was as one sided as you claim, M2k shouldn't even have trouble playing Fox against Sheik. Maybe it's just because KDJ is just too good, but I really think your playstyle heavily effects how well a character (and whoever is playing that character's style) can play against you. I think I'll just leave it at KDJ plays Sheik right while everyone else plays Sheik wrong against Fox.
NeighborhoodP
Smash Hero
a lot of it has to do with the fact that he's KDJ
Impact009
Smash Journeyman
In response to NeighborhoodP's statement that 60/40 is not **** or one-sided, you called him an idiot and proceeded to say that 60/40 is one-sided.
You also said in one sentence, that 60/40 is like 4/2, which was AFTER I had already corrected stated that 60/40 is 3/2.
How were you wrong? Your connotation of **** is a .2 per match lead. Most other people would consider **** to be getting 3-stocked, or just outright losing every match. 3/2 in a set of 5 means that whoever won that last match would win the whole set, so that is what one would consider a close game.
You also decided to change your mind and say, "It's a stretch." When something's a stretch, it's something that can happen, but isn't as likely as one would think. You however, tried to state concretely that it's **** by calling it simple.
Instead of just admitting that 4/2 is wrong, you say it's "close enough." Close enough to what, the simplified proportion that I already posted before you typed 4/2? The match-ups statistics already include all inherent advantages and disadvantages among the characters, thus using stages as your new reason was redundant.
FD, PS, and YS favor Falco. 3
BF and FoD favor Sheik. 2
Match-up ratio: 3/2
DL64 is a toss-up. What's a toss-up? In this case, it's a stage that both players would have a decent chance to win. However, it is of your personal opinion that DL64 is in Falco's favor. Nonetheless, a toss-up should not be automatically given to either character. 4/2 was not based on your personal opinion earlier, it was based solely on the 60/40 ratio which was the only source that you originally posted for your number.
In small sets, one win will make more of a difference than in larger sets. It is more likely for somebody to win by one match than with a larger sample size where spread can occur. Any slight bias will extremely hurt data in a small distribution more than in a larger one. What you did in essence, was multiply that .2 match advantage by 5.
If you want to get your point across, then stop changing what you're basing your arguments on, and don't insult somebody, then try to quickly retract your reason for doing so. You did say you were awake for 24 hours; I'll give you that, since most people are usually shutting down at that point, but you decided to stick by that 4/2 and gave a different reason for it.
I completely agree with you on the issue of advantages and disadvantages in a match between Falco and Sheik. I only disagreed with your original connotation of ****, and your incorrect simplification of an established ratio which you decided to stick to.
I do realize that match-up percentages are based on sets of nine, but there will probably never be a tournament that will have a "best 5 out of 9" set. I'm getting somewhat tired of this too, so I'll just end my post by saying that I agree based on my personal experience and other tournament results that 60/40 and 3/2 are for now true in sets of 9 or less.
Aesir
Smash Master
I had like no sleep when I was saying that stuff, hence I had no idea what I was saying LOL.
Falco's pressure game is just to good and he pressures sheik rather well. Someone mind pointing to where this was refuted? cause I can't seem to find it. >_>
and if all I see is nair out of shield I'm smacking a baby.
Honestly I've talked to chris extensivly about this match up today and he agrees that it is very much in falcos favor.
Nuetral stages.
pro falco:
PS
YS
FD
DL
Yeah I'm listing this as a pro-falco stage, it suits him well, sure sheik can live sometime but it's just prolonging the inevitable, and falco can dair camp the top platform and get favorable results.
pro sheik stages
BF
FoD
Do you even want to get into counter picks? falco has more counter pick stages then sheik does.
I mean honestly this doesn't mean much to me, I usually go marth vs sheik, unless it's the beginning of the set, in which case I go falco.
Falco's pressure game is just to good and he pressures sheik rather well. Someone mind pointing to where this was refuted? cause I can't seem to find it. >_>
and if all I see is nair out of shield I'm smacking a baby.
Honestly I've talked to chris extensivly about this match up today and he agrees that it is very much in falcos favor.
Nuetral stages.
pro falco:
PS
YS
FD
DL
Yeah I'm listing this as a pro-falco stage, it suits him well, sure sheik can live sometime but it's just prolonging the inevitable, and falco can dair camp the top platform and get favorable results.
pro sheik stages
BF
FoD
Do you even want to get into counter picks? falco has more counter pick stages then sheik does.
60/40 to me is a soft counter, I see it as falco has 4 neutrals, while sheik has two. I can see a sheik winning that in a best of 3, but not best of 5.
I mean honestly this doesn't mean much to me, I usually go marth vs sheik, unless it's the beginning of the set, in which case I go falco.
D
Deleted member
Guest
cali is clearly unfamiliar with the fruits of the east coast sheik.
edit: I found a counterpick stage where sheik literally cannot lose if played correctly vs anyone, but I'm not at liberty to discuss it.
EC keeps sheik sickly.
edit: I found a counterpick stage where sheik literally cannot lose if played correctly vs anyone, but I'm not at liberty to discuss it.
EC keeps sheik sickly.
NeighborhoodP
Smash Hero
only EC sheik i've seen is hayato and i was on par with him at scc
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
... KDJ? Dazwa? (I'm sure I'm missing some, but those are the first 2 that come to mind)
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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lol.
If 60/40 is **** then people need to change thier perspective on what ratio should be ****.
60/40 isn't ****. **** is usually 70/30 or more of a difference.
60/40 would put the second character at disadvantage and the advantage is more then a slight one. But it's not too big either.
And Shiek vs Marth definately isn't 70/30. Also M2K has no idea what to vs shiek.
Good player or not these are things to consider when they comment on match-ups.
If 60/40 is **** then people need to change thier perspective on what ratio should be ****.
60/40 isn't ****. **** is usually 70/30 or more of a difference.
60/40 would put the second character at disadvantage and the advantage is more then a slight one. But it's not too big either.
And Shiek vs Marth definately isn't 70/30. Also M2K has no idea what to vs shiek.
Good player or not these are things to consider when they comment on match-ups.
Retroking2000
Smash Master
sheik techs to fast 
Shmooguy
Smash Champion
LOL wow this turned into a huge discussion.
I didn't read all of the Neighborhood P vs Aesir ****, but I just wanted to reinforce that as Sheik, Falco is generally an easier matchup than Fox. Space animals are Sheik's most difficult matchups, but within those two matchups, Falco is slightly easier.
I don't do ratios because there's no way they can be accurate. I understand that they are estimates, but yeah, people get caught up on the numbers and lose sight of the actual arguments/advantages/etc.
I'm bad at stages so I won't really comment on those. I just counterpick Kongo Jungle so I can recover better. Also, I think that this late into the game, I'm pretty sure Fox's and Falco's know how to play all stages by now, Battlefield included. I need to learn FD vs Fox though.
And LOL it's in a Marth forum, wtf?
I didn't read all of the Neighborhood P vs Aesir ****, but I just wanted to reinforce that as Sheik, Falco is generally an easier matchup than Fox. Space animals are Sheik's most difficult matchups, but within those two matchups, Falco is slightly easier.
I don't do ratios because there's no way they can be accurate. I understand that they are estimates, but yeah, people get caught up on the numbers and lose sight of the actual arguments/advantages/etc.
I'm bad at stages so I won't really comment on those. I just counterpick Kongo Jungle so I can recover better. Also, I think that this late into the game, I'm pretty sure Fox's and Falco's know how to play all stages by now, Battlefield included. I need to learn FD vs Fox though.
And LOL it's in a Marth forum, wtf?
Retroking2000
Smash Master
thank you for you post , because your a sheik player i have to say one more thing GTFO of marth
Impact009
Smash Journeyman
I believe you're looking for post #45, which was the last post on page 3.
Again, the match-ups already take into account neutral stages and counter-picks, along with how their respective abilities serve them on such stages. I have always agreed that Falco has the advantage.
The match-ups assume that both players are at equal skill level, so I agree with you that yes, in that exact situation, Sheik will probably never win a set of 5. Of course, it may be impossible, or close to it, that such a situation would ever occur. Players' abilities are dynamic, so players in a match are almost never at equal skill level. Thus, a slightly more skilled Sheik can overcome this disadvantage.
Agreed, as it was one of my points, and probably why I started posting in this thread haha. I thought you were going to stop posting in this thread.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I am baffled as to why california thinks falco is easier than fox.
CA needs more falcos.
CA needs more falcos.
Shmooguy
Smash Champion
Probably. We don't have a PC Chris to play against, although Evilnemesis supposedly did very well at SCC. I know he beat Plank and Wobbles anyway.
Aesir
Smash Master
Anyway >_>
I think Sheik vs Marth is close to even.
Discuss.
I think Sheik vs Marth is close to even.
Discuss.
Vincent Vega
Smash Journeyman
I don't..
lol
Retroking2000
Smash Master
LOL close to even dude sheik *****