Marth vs. Metaknight

[KingChunky2]

So I'm having trouble against my friends Metaknight and I wanted some suggestions about how to approach the game.

1) Getting gimped by MK's amazing edgeguarding presents a problem
What is the best method to avoid cheap kills for MK in this manner?
I find myself DIing up and recovering because it seems less risky than recovering low against MK. Throwing in a counter when I'm above the ledge every once a while seems like a good tactic (because its either free damage or marth grabs the ledge). forward air is a relatively good defense against edgeguarding MK. Any other suggestions?


2) MK's rolls are fast enough to present a problem for Marth
While approaching with SH Fairs, dtils, nairs, etc I often can keep the right spacing and put in some damage. Often, however, MK rolls behind me as im approaching and gets a quick grab, dash attack, etc. A fast up-B seems like a good counter to this, but MK's roll is quick and his shield comes out fast. At high damages, a down smash sometimes with kill MKs who try this move. both moves, however, have slow recovery and put Marth in danger if they miss. Any other ways of dealing with rolling MKs?

3) Any other hints or strategies people have about fighting MK would be greatly appreicated

 

[Demonstormkill]

Just a couple ideas. First, about that counter -> ledge grab, isn't the other possibility an edgehog by metaknight that might leave you in a bad spot (depending on the angle you come in at)? There are also definately a few frames in there where you can be hit between the counter and the ledge, so it's not without its risks. Obviously it depends on metaknight's positioning whether you should recover from low or above, so don't reject either one imo.

If you're having problems getting back on the stage safely from the ledge, you might want to try the simple tactic of waiting for the right moment by repeatedly dropping and dolphin slashing until you see an opening. Just watch out for edgehogs.

As for MK rolling behind you, you might simply want to SH away and get your spacing against him if you have the time. Another possibility is to use your forward b combo as soon he rolls, since it lets you turn instantly.

Other than that, I'd advise using counter a little more often than you would against others, since it's hard to keep up with metaknight's speed sometimes.

Honestly, I have almost no experience fighting MK, those are just my thoughts on solving the specific problems you were talking about. Hopefully it's better than nothing, heh.

 

[takeurlife2]

mk is a god in laggy online play...

 

[Marthmaster92]

1) Getting gimped by MK's amazing edgeguarding presents a problem
What is the best method to avoid cheap kills for MK in this manner?
I find myself DIing up and recovering because it seems less risky than recovering low against MK. Throwing in a counter when I'm above the ledge every once a while seems like a good tactic (because its either free damage or marth grabs the ledge). forward air is a relatively good defense against edgeguarding MK. Any other suggestions?

TBH, I don't find MK's edguarding kills cheap. The whole purpose of edgeguarding is to keep your opponent off the edge.

Anyway, that's beside the point. I find that coming in low with an U+B works wonders. I've never ran into a metaknight who can take that one. Usually they'll try to swipe you off, but if you come in low enough, you'll immediately grab the edge, and they'll whiff. pop back up, and either do a sidestep or a down+B, and you're fine. Side b's also help when you're rolling back onto the stage from the ledge.

2) MK's rolls are fast enough to present a problem for Marth
While approaching with SH Fairs, dtils, nairs, etc I often can keep the right spacing and put in some damage. Often, however, MK rolls behind me as im approaching and gets a quick grab, dash attack, etc. A fast up-B seems like a good counter to this, but MK's roll is quick and his shield comes out fast. At high damages, a down smash sometimes with kill MKs who try this move. both moves, however, have slow recovery and put Marth in danger if they miss. Any other ways of dealing with rolling MKs?

Obviously, watch your back. I play Metaknight quite often, so I know how he works. His rolls present a problem, definitely. But when going up against him with Marth, see if he's predictable. Try the same thing where he would roll, and see if he'll react the same way. If that's the case, then you can easily build a counter strategy to it. If you can learn JUST when he's about to roll, you can do a roll of your own, and f-smash him.

3) Any other hints or strategies people have about fighting MK would be greatly appreicated

MK is a tough opponent. Easily one of the best characters IMO. *Shot*

You just have to keep him at bay, and don't let him in close, as he'll demolish you. Remember, since he scores multiple hits with some of his attacks, down+b is your friend. One hit with that is all you need to send them away a short distance, then you can go on the offensive with SH'd nairs and fairs.

 

[Fatalized]

The thing about MK is that hes got no lag time...thats kind bull
well he does but very little. hes able to sidestep right after an attack. Amazing as he seems
it seems to me he is very defenseless against projectiles. Marth on the other hand has no
projectiles. the best thing to do is to wait for MK to come to You. Thats what i do. and i
freaken own with Marth. Lol

 

[Demonstormkill]

Well I've played some MK mains now and the good ones **** me. That's probably because i'm being outclassed in general though, not just the character. Anyway, I'm terrified of MK. I tend to rely on spacing and range, but he's so fast I can't figure out how to keep my defense up. He's also hard to punish when he slips up because of that lack of lag time you mentioned. If he gets too aggressive sometimes I can make him pay for it, but as long as I can't predict him he's walking all over me.

I guess the important question is, how do you finish him once he's got some dmg built up?

 

[SwordMaster99]

any ideas on how to stop MKs neutal B spam? i tried counter which works at certain angles and of course Fair but im not having too much luck.

 

[fire_wulf]

Finish MK by hitting him up.. if he is high damage... hyphen smash your up smash or if you have the opportunity.. up tilt will also kill him at high damage if it is still fresh. I don't use smashes until i need kills.. so if i hit Mk with a fresh down smash at the tip that will kill them straight up as well.

I don't really know the classic way of killing him.. forward smash with the tip. Hes a light character so up is almost your best bet.

 

[BacklashMarth]

I have to be honest about two things
1) I don't see why people fear metaknight so much and
2) I actually don't know or havent seen any good metaknights (and i use him) but thats probably just me

Abuse the dancing blade to raise his damage and keep good spacing. Metaknight's big weakness is that his kill moves are close range cuz his sword is small. Marth can do a lot of moves from a safe distance and earn the extra tipping damage. I think you should act like you are going in for a spike when mk tries to recover then counter in his face. He will up+b you when you get close or cape away to safety. Either way you are safe. (P.S. you can easily spike MK if he tries to recover from below the stage if you short hop diar near the edge with good timing.

 

[Dark Crimson]

Counter his edgeguards. It takes practice but I've got it down really good.

 

[Mike35]

Remember that the dancing blade upward combo is easy to hit and can kill characters off the top. This seems like it'd be especially useful against Meta Knight.

 

[Fatalized]

MK is a GOD...i hate him!!! grrr i think if u play quick and keep ur distance the match could end quickly

 

[Fou-Ru]

so summary keep a good distance, abuse dancing blade and counter a lot still is hard to do T_T

 

[AcidJazz]

So I'm having trouble against my friends Metaknight and I wanted some suggestions about how to approach the game.

1) Getting gimped by MK's amazing edgeguarding presents a problem
What is the best method to avoid cheap kills for MK in this manner?
I find myself DIing up and recovering because it seems less risky than recovering low against MK.

I have to disagree. As marth, you want to fight him more vertically than horizontally off the edge. His floaty bull**** and range / priority (its a whacky combo at times) can dair you like crazy if he just keeps right above you. He'll always have an oppurtunity to be above you if you're travelling horizontally. If he's a good ledge gaurder that's your main concern but it's really not that hard to get around. I use forward B to throw their timing off. Unless they're perfect, you can probably throw them off.

Throwing in a counter when I'm above the ledge every once a while seems like a good tactic (because its either free damage or marth grabs the ledge). forward air is a relatively good defense against edgeguarding MK. Any other suggestions?

I'm not sure what you mean but it can be a pain to edge guard MK. If MK is ever below the ledge, you should be able to back air him and probably kill him @ 100 or maybe less. Also, spikes aren't that bad with Marth. The trick is to hit him with the back side of the swing. You can be almost perfectly horizontal with him and still spike the **** out of him. It's very nice. Watch out for drills, tornados, glides tho.

2) MK's rolls are fast enough to present a problem for Marth
While approaching with SH Fairs, dtils, nairs, etc I often can keep the right spacing and put in some damage. Often, however, MK rolls behind me as im approaching and gets a quick grab, dash attack, etc. A fast up-B seems like a good counter to this, but MK's roll is quick and his shield comes out fast. At high damages, a down smash sometimes with kill MKs who try this move. both moves, however, have slow recovery and put Marth in danger if they miss. Any other ways of dealing with rolling MKs?

Forward b dood. Don't be afraid to throw a swipe then a neural a to push him away if he blocks. If he still can grab you after that, you ****ed up.

3) Any other hints or strategies people have about fighting MK would be greatly appreicated

Block his tornados / drills completely and then run into up smash. You have to be quick and he has to be semi close though, unlike fox who can **** the **** out of him with it.

his up B can be a pain in the ***. tell your friend to spam it and see what happens. up b into glide

Best ways to kill him is

up smash out of tornado / drill
back air off the ledge
utilt (you can combo (for brawl realz) uair into utilt as long as your spacing is right

I'm not sure if this is true but I killed MK at 103% (after the hit) with a utilt but the utilt hit him at the very bottom of the backswing. It looked really weird but i have a feeling he wasn't doing the DI thing properly. Utilt still can be painful.

Uair is sweet when you can hit the sweet spot. It's a quick attack that can be fatal if done high enough at a low percentage and will generally kill at a medium-low percentage at a normal height.

You can ledge jump (hanging from the ledge and press jump) and get a fair off that seems to be invincible. If he's close enough (which is pretty much the only situation you'd do it in) he'll either block it (and it gives far enough distance away to recover) or he'll take a hit... Every hit counts with MK. The only cheap kills you're getting off this fool is spikes and (sorta) bairs.

Holla

 

[AcidJazz]

This doesn't count as a double post does it? Both of these were kinda big and on different topics...... (sorta???)

It'd be sloppy to put it in the other

Obviously, watch your back. I play Metaknight quite often, so I know how he works. His rolls present a problem, definitely. But when going up against him with Marth, see if he's predictable. Try the same thing where he would roll, and see if he'll react the same way. If that's the case, then you can easily build a counter strategy to it. If you can learn JUST when he's about to roll, you can do a roll of your own, and f-smash him.

Nah dood forward smash against a roll = death. If it's not, your opponent is too slow.

Forward b my man. Forward b. Like I said previously, dont be afraid to throw some a swipes in their. Throw that ***** off. Neutral A swipes (and ftilts [even further back]) push them a lot further back.

MK is a tough opponent. Easily one of the best characters IMO. *Shot*

You just have to keep him at bay, and don't let him in close, as he'll demolish you. Remember, since he scores multiple hits with some of his attacks, down+b is your friend. One hit with that is all you need to send them away a short distance, then you can go on the offensive with SH'd nairs and fairs.

I only counter when meta is over aggressive (especially in the air). Counters are a perfect air move. On the ground, you can pretty much counter everything he has a lot more safely with a lot more damage with other moves. Forward B is something I figure people will miss a lot. That's a really important aspect. Fairs and throws are good. Learn how to move properly too. Be able to dash dance and **** all over the place.

Marth was not easy in Melee and personally I find him harder in this game. He's so god dammmmm slow. At least his attacks come out quick but he lost all his range... blah blah blah n/m

Hope this helped =)

 

[Fatalized]

I like the way u think acid

 

[Pledge]

MK is the best character in the game. Stop trying to beat him.

 

[Emblem Lord]

How is Marth slow?

No seriously, I wanna know, cuz he seems pretty fast to me.

 

[meepxzero]

metaknights just annoying. He kinda has to b camped in the match up with fairs and forward b... for marth to win easily. Dont ever bother edge guarding him and watch for his b moves as they tend to come out real fast.

 

[∫unk]

How is Marth slow?

No seriously, I wanna know, cuz he seems pretty fast to me.

He's slower than Meta, which makes him relatively slow.

metaknights just annoying. He kinda has to b camped in the match up with fairs and forward b... for marth to win easily. Dont ever bother edge guarding him and watch for his b moves as they tend to come out real fast.

This still doesn't let you "win easily" against a good Meta. Meta can do the exact same crap you're doing (spacing with aerials), except he has multiple jumps which lets him space easier in the air, he has less lag after his ground smashes, and he can surprise you with b forward and b neutral.

I've done this camping game as described by you and Emblem, and while it works to a certain degree, it certainly doesn't make the match easy or even favorable. Meta can still come in really quickly and ruin your camping game.

Someone show me a video of a good Meta losing to a good Marth. I've looked and I have yet to find one.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Which is why I have the match-up as even.

Also you will NEVER see a good MK vs a good Marth because Marth is an unpopular character and EVERYONE in the SBR thinks he sucks.

Also, why in the world would you think MK is an easy match-up?

MK is a very good character. If you have an easy time beating him then the MK you are facing is far worse then you.

I have beatten one of the best MK players in my state and he certainly doesn't think Marth is a push over and he recognizes that Marth is a force to be reckoned. That's all that really matters.

Marth isn't slow BTW. Marth is the 9th fastest runner and one of the fastest attackers.

How is he slow? MK is faster, but that doesn't make Marth slow. It just means he is slower then MK.

Honestly that reasoning just sucks balls, no offense.

 

[∫unk]

Which is why I have the match-up as even.

Also you will NEVER see a good MK vs a good Marth because Marth is an unpopular character and EVERYONE in the SBR thinks he sucks.

Also, why in the world would you think MK is an easy match-up?

MK is a very good character. If you have an easy time beating him then the MK you are facing is far worse then you.

I have beatten one of the best MK players in my state and he certainly doesn't think Marth is a push over and he recognizes that Marth is a force to be reckoned. That's all that really matters.

Marth isn't slow BTW. Marth is the 9th fastest runner and one of the fastest attackers.

How is he slow? MK is faster, but that doesn't make Marth slow. It just means he is slower then MK.

Honestly that reasoning just sucks balls, no offense.

I think we're on the same page Emblem. I was just trying to explain the reasoning behind whoever said Marth was slow. I personally have never complained that Marth wasn't fast enough :D

I don't think MK is an easy matchup. He's !@#$ing hard. I was responding to meepxzero who thinks Meta is "just annoying" and Marth can "win easily".

 

[meepxzero]

lol hes probably calling marth slow cuz he has actual lag in his moves XD compared to mk.

Im just stating marth has all the options to shut down a good mk. If he glides at u and attacks just counter.... if he does neutral b and forward b granted u shield it and he lands near you its a free up b outta shield. If he rolls period forward b. Dtilt which is probably safest option short hopped delayed fairs bait him into dtilting you. You can get a free fair and forward b combo. Match up is more unique than any other because you have to beat him on stage as opposed to off stage. Dsmash kills him at 120%+ and up b is a good kill move if he doesnt expect it.

I will give ya hes a hard match up if you arent familar with it. I might have worded it wrong calling it easy but it is doable.

 

[Fatalized]

I think that if u know how to use Marth..Hes FAST. People who can combo easily with their
Fair and Fb can own. Timing and Quickness is all i think about lol. Anyways against MK i recommend that u keep ur distance against him...People always say that the closer MK is the more of an advantage he has. Ive gotten some experience with my lil brother who is a GOD with MK. I cant beat him but i notice how short Mk sword is and i figured, since Marth sword is longer (even tho it got shorter since Melee) i could keep a good distance and hit him with a fast Fair,Fb combo ending with Fb^, then going into a neutral air and comtinue to Fair. Oh and one more thing. If the Mk player sidesteps a lot (like my bro) then i recommend u let him come to u. Unless u can time ur attck right. I hope this helped a little

 

[XSniper]

If you haven't fought a good meta knight atleast 20 times, u're gonna have some trouble because his priority is tricky. A friend of mine plays him mainly and after adjusting to him, it's not as bad for me and I can try different characters vs him. It's important to be very careful and defensive vs. mk; you have to get rdy for running games and don't go head on without caution.

Does anyone wanna play in brawl? PM or post and I can add you, I wanna see how the competition in this board is.

 

[Shök]

Use the DB and counter and Grab Frequently.
The Db helps to space. Fake em out w/ the first hit and cancel the combo into an F-Smash or use another move. Advanced Mingames.
All his B moves have helpless animation and are tremendously laggy at the end. Use it to land a kill movewhen he does it.

 

[MajestikOne]

I honestly dont have many issues with MK as a marth mainer, but im not very good. I know 2 MK users that i give a run with. My reccomendation: always try and stay behind MetaKnight and take advantage by SwordDancing him. if he blocks it or not, stop on the 1st or 2nd dance, and try a shield breaker. If your even more risky than that and he is at a high %, try stopping your SD, Guard, and upB out of it. Heck, ive done these moves a few times, but i cant do them fully "On Command." XD I need more practice.


As far as his edgeguarding, i get shuttle looped somewhat often, but my counter to this is if he chases you downward, either jump over, airdodge through or FF as close to him as possible and Dolphin Slash him into a wall usually works for me.

 

[∫unk]

The last 2 tactics are not good.... A good meta will punish you if you try either of those strategies.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=168723

 

[BacklashMarth]

I honestly dont have many issues with MK as a marth mainer, but im not very good. I know 2 MK users that i give a run with. My reccomendation: always try and stay behind MetaKnight and take advantage by SwordDancing him. if he blocks it or not, stop on the 1st or 2nd dance, and try a shield breaker. If your even more risky than that and he is at a high %, try stopping your SD, Guard, and upB out of it. Heck, ive done these moves a few times, but i cant do them fully "On Command." XD I need more practice.


As far as his edgeguarding, i get shuttle looped somewhat often, but my counter to this is if he chases you downward, either jump over, airdodge through or FF as close to him as possible and Dolphin Slash him into a wall usually works for me.

Why not just cancel dancing blade after the 1st hit then up+b? Its not that hard if you learn how to pause then smash up+b.

 

[Nintendo_lord]

MK=my worst match up.