Marth vs Falco

[Esca]

I don't main Marth. I dont even second him. I just like joining in randomly on arguments.

 

[CY]

I don't main Marth. I dont even second him. I just like joining in randomly on arguments.

your marth never beats my falco. -_-

i think marth has the upper hand, 60/40 imo. (around there).

marth can do that gay 0%-death CG to falco, so falco has to be extremly careful when he's at 0%.

eh, i have a lot of experience with this matchup since the guy i play with the most mains marth. we usually go down to the last stock mid-high%s, but he usually ends up with the win.

 

[Rimmer]

Can you elaborate more on the Death Combo Rimmer? I saw it somewhere, but i just don't know what it is exactly.

In early percents Marth can Fthrow -> Fthrow -> Dair KO Falco.

What? Rimmer...Lasers work against Marth identical to the way they work against other opponents. Now, if you're using it to build damage on Marth, you'll doing it wrong. A smart Falco will use lasors to limit positioning and force Marth into an unfamiliar footing. This means a good Falco will not spam SHDL like an idiot. He'll throw in single lasors, empty short hops and back jumps galore. He'll NEVER ground laser.

No they don't. Marth has an incredibly long and fast sword. At the start of the game he can simply rush you down, and if you've jumped already you're going to eat an attack. I don't use lasers to simply build up damage. I use it for what all good Falcos use it for. The problem is, I play against a Marth who actually knows the matchup, meaning if he aproaches with Fair and I SHDL him trying to stun him he spams forward A. Here's what happens: He Fairs, I laser, he Fairs, I laser, I land, he Fairs, I get hit. Or if he lands first I get grabbed or something. If I shield and try to punish him, he either simply spaces back or goes over me. You might think that'd be the perfect opportunity to punish, but no. If you try you eat a tippered Fsmash. Ground lasers work to stop the rushdown. Saying it's useless is stupid. Thinking I do it while the Marth is standing right next to me is stupid. I do it so the rushdown will stop at a comfortable range, preferably right at or slightly beyond reflector range.

Mind games. Falco would never use lasers to 'hold Marth back.' The goal isn't to camp. The goal is to get an advantage and build into a combo. This isn't wolf.

Mind games can't be taken into account in a matchup. You think Marth can't mindgame? Mind you that we're talking about 2 opponents with equal skill.

That's like saying: "Marth's F-Smash is risky. It's quick, but if you miss, he succumbs to lag and becomes punishable." Obviously. Every move in this game is punishable, with some more punishable than others. Falco's reflector shouldn't be spammed and it should never be used carelessly. But if Marth is within hitting distance of you, you're within hitting distance of him and should take advantage of it. If he's spamming D-tilt, or he's Side-Bing or he's charging B or he's AAAing, or even charging a smash, these can all be stopped with the use of the reflector. The reflector isn't meant to be used when Marth is standing still. He'll shield it. But if Marth is under any sort of delay, he'll be hit every time.

You compare Marth's Fsmash lag to Falco's full half-second reflector lag? A good Marth will know the reflector is coming and simply wait untill you use it, shield it or simply space it and then punish you. Also, you can shield while moving, if you didn't know that. There's also the tiny problem in that Marth has attacks that can reflect the reflector. You seem to be arguing under the assumption that the Falco is vastly more skilled than the Marth.

A favorite of Marths involve D-tilt spamming or F-Air spamming. The former requires your reflector. The latter requires your lasor.

Marths don't usually Dtilt spam vs Falcos. They only do that when they know Dtilt is appropriate. And if you didn't already realise, Marth can hit you with a Fair right after being hit with the last SHL before you get the chance to attack.

Falco's spot-dodge is rather beautiful, and his rolls are faster than most. And his B-Air is solid. And his dash attack is great at punishing techrolls. The 'window' of opprotunity isn't small here by any means.

Marth has attacks that can catch Falco out of spotdodges and he has attacks fast enough that you won't be able to attack out of a spot dodge. Do the Marths you play against try to approach with Fsmash or something? Falco's Bair is also outranged by all of Marths attacks, as are the rest of his good moves.

Considering Falco is on defense, he merely needs to wait for Marth to attack and punish.

Defend with what? Attack with what? Punish with what? If you SHDL you're open for attack. If you shield you're open for a shield breaker. If you spotdodge you can be caught out of it. The last part goes both ways, of course, but since Falco is on the defensive, as you said, Marth isn't likely to have to spotdodge as much.

Falco's short hopped B-Air hits Marth well. Falco's F-tilt is quick. Falco's D-smash can be built into almost anything. Falco's U-Smash can slide and hit at an unexpected position.

Falco's SHBair is outranged by Marth's moves. So is his Ftilt and Dsmash range is pitiful at best. If you boost smash you can also be hit out of it before getting in range.

Range only matters if spacing is proper. This actually becomes a hinderance to a Marth who must maintain equal spacing to keep his advantage. Falco just has to move a tad bit closer and range becomes less significant.

With what? Lasers? I've already covered that. Rolling? You'll get hit by a dsmash.

I'll point out we're talking about high level play...

Maybe that detail should be pointed out to you.

Believe it or not, but Falco's harder to gimp than you think.

No he's not. Phantasm is easily edgeguarded by Marth. If you try to return to the stage with it, you'll get Fsmashed. If you sweetspot the ledge with it... then you're on the ledge against a Marth, which is not really a good idea, but probably better than trying to return to the stage most of the time.

If he's predictable, sure, anyone can gimp Falco. A good Falco knows how to Phantasm safely and although Marth can certainly gimp Falco, Falco can gimp Marth. The only way Marth can gimp Falco involves Marth placing himself under risk. Typically, he jumps off the ledge with an F-Air trying to catch the Phantasm. If Marth is is even a milisecond off, Phantasm spike gives Falco a free stock.

For one, Marth can be at a different elevation from Falco and still hit with Fair while Falco won't be able to hit him with phantasm. Then there's the little detail that phantasm has startup lag, which means you have to predict perfectly or you'll get gimped. You also vastly overrate the phantasm spike. There's this nifty little thing called meteor cancelling, you see.

And considering Falco can phantasm instantly,

No... just no...

can phantasm to the ledge or can wait in the air, DI forwards/backwards and then phantasm when it's safe, Marth has a lot of ground to cover. It's harder to gimp Falco than it looks. It's probable, but it's certainly not frequently.

When is it safe against Marth? He can just wait at the right distance, shield your phantasm and fsmash you. And if you get on the ledge he has even more options. If you ledgehop he could even spike you, never mind the stuff he can pull with his range if you try to phantasm, laser or reflector back to the stage.

Falco should never ground laser...A good marth will punish it. Any opponent will punish it. A better, more viable option, is to back-jump single lasor. There's no way Marth can punish it, assuming Falco has enough room behind him.

You seem to be under the assumption that I ground laser while the Marth is right next to me. What, you think I'm an idiot? Ground lasers do have their uses. Mainly that it forces the Marth to jump or shield, both which stop a rushdown and give you more options. For instance, if he jumps at a comfortable distance away from you your SHDL might actually start having some uses.

 

[Steel]

Rimmer:

I applaud your post, sir ^_^

 

[Emblem Lord]

Er.

While I think Rimmer went a tad overboard his points are valid.

While statistically Marth doesn't destroy Falco, he still comes out on top when you look at the raw stats like range, close range game, gimping ability, zoning game, etc.

 

[Esca]

I assume you mean this match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-_Tsn4TZ84.

How could you possibly think that Marth is so much better than Falco judging by this match? First off, you can't judge a match-up from two players, and 3 games they play. You simply cannot. You need many match-ups, many players, examine them closely, see why X character lost, and whether or not it was the player's fault or the character's fault.

Again, even if you were to judge an entire match-up from this match, i don't see how could really say that Marth was better. In Game 1, until 2:15, they were even. Sethlon was even a few % ahead for the entire game. Then, when RoyR knocked him off, he forgot to use his double jump, and instead, used his Up B way out of range, gimping himself at 22%.

This is a very good example of the player's fault, and not the characters. Sure, Marth was able to edge hog quite easily, but even a Ganondorf or a Captain Falcon would be able to do that.

After knocking off RoyR's 2nd stock while at 64%, Sethlon takes advantage of Marth's ability to Up B out of a CG by doing it, staying back, then punishing him with another grab to a spike. Just proves that just because Marth can Up B out of a CG, doesn't mean he gets the upper hand in the entire match. Unfortunately, Sethlon got a bit too hasty in trying to get the early gimp, and ended up getting stage spiked by RoyR. A nice play indeed.

Because Sethlon made such a vital error in not double jumping at a very low percent, we really cannot judge that match in Marth's favor. Sure, the Marth player won, but in my opinion, they were both very even.

Game 2: Again, pretty even until about 3:40 where Sethlon shows that Falco can edgeguard Marth just as well as Marth can edgeguard falco. Next it's pretty even until something weird happens to RoyR at 4:25. I'm not sure what it was, but it seemed as if he rolled back onto the stage, but instead, went through it. This was not Marth's fault, and does not make Marth worse than Falco, it was the players fault, or some sort of glitch. After this, again it's pretty even, (minus the fact that Sethlon has an extra stock), until Sethlon lands the kill move before RoyR can. The Falco did win, but just like the first match, had the Marth player not gimped himself or fell through the map, it could have been a completely different ending. The Falco vs. Marth matchup cannot be decided based on this match either, because these events can happen to any character at any time, and it doesn't decide which character is better.

In my opinion, this match, much like the first one, was very even, and would have been very close had RoyR not fallen off.

Game 3: From the beginning to 6:48, it's all very even. Grabs and then follow ups, until Marth edge guards Falco well enough that his poor vertical recovery cannot save him, and then Sethlon returns the favor to Marth by edgeguarding and hogging so that he cannot recover. Sethlon does have 44% more, but overall, it was pretty even. RoyR then does a great job of punishing Sethlon's Phantasm with his dancing blade. He then procedes to rack up more damage, as does Sethlon, and then RoyR gets the kill move off first. A few more things happen, Sethlon gets knocked off the stage, and gets edgehogged for the win. A common result of many games and matches.

There is no doubt that RoyR played better than Sethlon in this match, but it doesn't mean that Marth will always beat Falco. The match-up is really quite even.

Okay then, go look at Take vs. See Why . There's a perfect example.

 

[CY]

Okay then, go look at Take vs. See Why . There's a perfect example.

eh those are old vids and i didn't do too well, but it shows the gay marth 0%-death on falco so yea.

 

[zamz]

Ugh.

No they don't. Marth has an incredibly long and fast sword. At the start of the game he can simply rush you down, and if you've jumped already you're going to eat an attack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-_Tsn4TZ84

Look what happens within the first 10 seconds of the game. Falco SHDLs, Marth cautiously walks forward, shields the laser, attempts to punish. Doesn't. There's a difference between playing in tournement, and playing your friend 100 games. One relies on uncertainty. The other relies on predictability. If you SHDL at the start of every match, a good player will adapt and figure out a way to punish it. It sounds like your friend has done just that. But in tournement, you can't throw in a specific situation like this, when it's not guarenteed. Believe it or not, it's risky for Marth to run full blast at Falco when he doesn't know what Falco plans on doing. It works great against you, though, because you don't change it up.

I don't use lasers to simply build up damage. I use it for what all good Falcos use it for. The problem is, I play against a Marth who actually knows the matchup, meaning if he aproaches with Fair and I SHDL him trying to stun him he spams forward A.

You play a Marth who has played you more than once and predicts your moves. If you predictably use SHDL every single time, he'll counter it. Use SHSL instead. You'll see Sethlon uses lasors quite frequently. Some of which are punished. Some of which are shielded. And many of which hit their mark. Lasers aren't useless.

Again, lasers aren't meant to stop your opponent or build damage. Only to gain the upperhand and help set up a string of multiple attacks.

Here's what happens: He Fairs, I laser, he Fairs, I laser, I land, he Fairs, I get hit. Or if he lands first I get grabbed or something. If I shield and try to punish him, he either simply spaces back or goes over me. You might think that'd be the perfect opportunity to punish, but no. If you try you eat a tippered Fsmash.

I'm not too fond of continual SHDL throughout the whole game...

Ground lasers work to stop the rushdown. Saying it's useless is stupid. Thinking I do it while the Marth is standing right next to me is stupid. I do it so the rushdown will stop at a comfortable range, preferably right at or slightly beyond reflector range.

I could see that. It's one strategy, I guess. But what's the point of it? You're attempting to get 1 free ground-lasor in to...what? You're not really limiting position, considering the marth will perfect shield it and continue to rush at you (and you wouldn't dare shoot more than 2 or 3 ground lasors in a row, would you?). It doesn't limit his movmeent, and it most likely won't hit. He'll just inch slightly closer to you. It prolongs the inevitable. You have better options...

Mind games can't be taken into account in a matchup. You think Marth can't mindgame? Mind you that we're talking about 2 opponents with equal skill.

Surely. I'm not taking mindgames into account. I'm saying you have an ill-conceived notion that Falco's lasers are useless against Marth. I'm saying the main use for Falco's lasors = mindgames. This is not meant to be a comparison towards Marth.

You'll see I NEVER said Falco's mindgames > Marth's mindgames. That would be stupid.

You compare Marth's Fsmash lag to Falco's full half-second reflector lag? A good Marth will know the reflector is coming and simply wait untill you use it, shield it or simply space it and then punish you. Also, you can shield while moving, if you didn't know that. There's also the tiny problem in that Marth has attacks that can reflect the reflector. You seem to be arguing under the assumption that the Falco is vastly more skilled than the Marth.

Again, this isn't a move to be spammed. And in fact, preferrably never used at all. If Marth can see it coming, don't use it. Ever. Marth shouldn't be shielding it. The only purpose the reflector would have is to punish moves that Marth has to charge. Or it's to punish moves where Marth knows he's out of your range, so he starts blade dancing/D-tilt spamming.

If I made it sound like Falco should be using reflector regularly, then I said it wrong. Reflector isn't spammable.

Marths don't usually Dtilt spam vs Falcos. They only do that when they know Dtilt is appropriate. And if you didn't already realise, Marth can hit you with a Fair right after being hit with the last SHL before you get the chance to attack.

They...only use D-tilt when it's appropriate? I like that. From now on, good Falco's only use Reflector (and phantasm) when it's appropriate.

And yes, we all know you like SHDLs and get punished for it. No need to repeat yourself. SHDL has questionable affect on Marth. I wouldn't advocate using it. I'm more fond of well placed single lasors which keep Marth on his toes. But, for arguement purposes. Short backward jump single soundless lasor will hit Marth and leave Marth unable to punish it. To see what I'm talking about at (2:41 - 2:43): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-_Tsn4TZ84 . You have this notion that lasors are useless. They aren't.

Marth has attacks that can catch Falco out of spotdodges and he has attacks fast enough that you won't be able to attack out of a spot dodge. Do the Marths you play against try to approach with Fsmash or something? Falco's Bair is also outranged by all of Marths attacks, as are the rest of his good moves.

Obviously. Every character has moves that catch Falco out of a spotdodge. Falco has a move that catches Marth out of spotdodge (jabs). And why would a marth approach with F-Smash? Stop treating me like a scrub. Wow.

Defend with what? Attack with what? Punish with what? If you SHDL you're open for attack. If you shield you're open for a shield breaker. If you spotdodge you can be caught out of it. The last part goes both ways, of course, but since Falco is on the defensive, as you said, Marth isn't likely to have to spotdodge as much.

SHDL...SHDL. No wonder Marth's predict you so easily. It's all you ever talk about. There are other forms of lasor. You seem to focus on the form of lasor that's easiest to predict. Great. The way you speak, Falco has 0 options. If that were true, this should be 20/80 for Falco, because "he can't do anything."

Falco's SHBair is outranged by Marth's moves. So is his Ftilt and Dsmash range is pitiful at best. If you boost smash you can also be hit out of it before getting in range.

Which is why when Sethlon's fighting RoyR, he's within range. They spend a large portion of the game very close to each other. Tell me, what advantage does range have when two people are standing right next to each other? Range is great for keeping Falco away, but that's it's only use. If Marth ruins his spacing, he's effectively throwing away a large part of his advantage on this match-up.

I'll say it again. Marth's greatest strength on Falco is his range. If you are going to tell me that range is the only important element of smash, then yes, by all means, Marth > Falco. And by a significant amount.

With what? Lasers? I've already covered that. Rolling? You'll get hit by a dsmash.

Jabs.

No he's not. Phantasm is easily edgeguarded by Marth. If you try to return to the stage with it, you'll get Fsmashed. If you sweetspot the ledge with it... then you're on the ledge against a Marth, which is not really a good idea, but probably better than trying to return to the stage most of the time.

For one, Marth can be at a different elevation from Falco and still hit with Fair while Falco won't be able to hit him with phantasm. Then there's the little detail that phantasm has startup lag, which means you have to predict perfectly or you'll get gimped. You also vastly overrate the phantasm spike. There's this nifty little thing called meteor cancelling, you see.

No... just no...

When is it safe against Marth? He can just wait at the right distance, shield your phantasm and fsmash you. And if you get on the ledge he has even more options. If you ledgehop he could even spike you, never mind the stuff he can pull with his range if you try to phantasm, laser or reflector back to the stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-_Tsn4TZ84

0:13 - Phantasm hits.
0:26 - PHantasm hits.
0:39 - Falco Phantasms safely.
0:45 - Falco Phantasms safely.
0:54 - Falco uses phantas to scale the side of the stage. Gasp, it has a use other than hitting Marth.
0:59 - Falco uses phantasm, makes it to the ledge safely, but gets punished through landing lag.
1:00 - Falco phantasms and hits Marth, spiking him into the stage.
1:02 - Falco phantasms Marth and hits.
1:10-1:12 - Falco recovers safefly using 2 phantasms.
1:14 - Falco uses phantasm and hits.
1:18-1:20 - Falco recovers safely using air dodge (to wait in the air) and phantasm.
1:34 - Falco uses phantasm to reach the edge safely.
1:38 - The FIRST Falco's phantasm is ruined by Marth.
1:40-1:41 - Two more phantasms, both SAFE.
1:50 - Predictable phantasm punished. (Second time)
1:54 - Phantasm punished but there's 100% no way he could have lived through that anyway, he was too far from the ledge. But, he wasn't gimped. He was punished through landing lag.
1:57 - Falco uses phantasm to grab the ledge safely.
2:07 - Falco phantasms safely.
2:24 - Marth attempts to punish phantasm and gets spiked off the ledge.
2:32 - Falco phantasms, hits marth, and marth barely has enough time to punish. Phantasm did 5% damage, Marth's punish did 9% damage. Not a great exchange, but neither particularly bad off.
2:49 - Falco safely phantasms.

TL;DR:
Falco safely phantasms 18 times.
Falco phantasms (and hits Marth) 7 times.
Marth punishes Falco's phantasm 5 times.

23 phantasms in a single game...so little punishment...

You seem to be under the assumption that I ground laser while the Marth is right next to me. What, you think I'm an idiot? Ground lasers do have their uses. Mainly that it forces the Marth to jump or shield, both which stop a rushdown and give you more options. For instance, if he jumps at a comfortable distance away from you your SHDL might actually start having some uses.

I didn't make that assumption. You merely said you ground lasor and...I don't see why you'd do that. It has so few advantages. It won't stop Marth from coming any closer (perfect shield + continuing to charge at you) and you can't use more than a couple (maybe 2/3 at the max) ground lasor before Marth's close enough to jump in the air and punish your lasor lag. Marth only needs to jump into the air and you're helpless. If you're still putting your gun away and Marth's in the air, you're putting yourself into: "I need to dodge this next attack" stance. This ruins your control of the situation from the getgo, whereas Marth can freely move wherever he wishes.

The point would be to gain control of the match, not give Marth opprotunties to steal control...

 

[Emblem Lord]

For the record in the first 10 secs of match, Marth didn't necessarily have to punish.

By doing SHDL it gave Marth the time to close in and set-up his zoning which limited Falco's options. Fighting games are more then just hitting your opponent. It all comes down to control.

Falco's SHDL is a tool that is meant to give him in control, but in this particular match-up it actually gives control to Marth which is why it's not as good in this match-up.

 

[B-Mon]

Yes, but Retreating SHDL or moving SHDL in general will be a more effective variant since it pulls Falco back as to making the distance in between farther, and also stops Marth. Only downside is that the lasers travel a farther distance giving Marth more reaction time.

As long as Falco stays within Anti-tipped range, he will be able to win. At the sametime though, he must come in for attack the second that Marth. Falcos should try disrupting Marth from afar and when in the air they should Phantasm out of the way and continue a camp like nature.

If they get a chance, they should ShieldGrab and follow up until they have more control of the match.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The fact that Falco is reduced to camping and trying to wait for mistakes should show who has the advantage.

Overall it's just harder for him to gain control and maintain control once he gets it.

Lasers aren't enough and he lacks the tools to fight Marth head to head.

 

[Esca]

Emblem Lord, post a vid of your Marth.

 

[Fizzle]

Falco's SHDL is a tool that is meant to give him in control, but in this particular match-up it actually gives control to Marth which is why it's not as good in this match-up.

Um, in what matchup is SHDL ever meant to give Falco control? I rarely see pros use SHDL on a grounded opponent, period. Especially when SHL or sh back laser are far superior. SHDL is best when they're on platforms so both hit (like on Jungle Japes) or when they short hop. SHDL is like SH double fair at the Marth boards - good but not a necessity in every match.

Phantasm easily edgeguarded? lolz It's one of the safest moves in the game... so long as you don't get too predictable with it.

I'd still give the match to Marth (slightly) since his upb neutralizes what is arguably Falco's greatest tool - the chaingrab. Falco can still turn it around if his laser game is superb, though. Like zamz said, lasers are a lot more than just damage builders.

If they get a chance, they should ShieldGrab and follow up until they have more control of the match.

Most characters are going to have a hard time shield grabbing against a good Marth that spaces well. Marth's long range makes it easy to space yourself away from a shielded opponent.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Are you serious?

In every fighting game ever, projectiles are used to control an opponent. Damage is just a bonus. The main point is limiting your opponents options and forcing them to play on your terms, which gives you control which is what fighting games are about.

Control your opponent, control the match, control the path to victory.

And for Marth there is no difference in Falco doing a SHL or SHDL because the method of dashing in on Falco is the same. Either way Marth has time to close in on the ground. Each method of lasering gives Falco a different type of control but ultimately if Falco does a SHL he still has to SH then wait till he is at the right height to do that single laser, which gives Marth time to close in.

This is why Falco's laser game takes a hit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Posting a vid of my Marth is entirely pointless to this debate. Not only that but there are no vids of my Marth that are recent and not on wifi.

WTF does that have to do with anything though?

I honestly hate that crap.

I would choose to debate with evidence and data over vids any day.

 

[Esca]

Idk, i've just heard your good.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No, I suck. Back to the debate plz.

 

[Fizzle]

Are you serious?

In every fighting game ever, projectiles are used to control an opponent. .

Whoa, calm down and read a little, buddy. You act like no one around here has played a fighting game before. Anyone with some sense in their head knows projectiles are meant to control. I was merely saying, imo, how useless SHDL is for that purpose. SH retreating laser works wonders against Marth. All characters have time to close in when Falco SHLs, but you don't see that stopping him from using them. What does Marth have over them in that aspect besides better running speed?

Lasers are effective versus nearly every character in the game. Saying lasers are a walk in the park for Marth, a character that can't projectile camp back or magnet/reflect, is just ignorant. He may have an easier time dealing with them than some (and a better OOS game, too), but they're still going to work on him and allow Falco to capitalize.

Heck, if Marth closes in Falco can just aerial Phantasm and start lasering again.

 

[J4pu]

Idk, i've just heard your good.

I believe RoyR and NEO are the idols in the Marth forum, and possibly Ken now.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's the running speed combined with his range that gives him an edge over Falco.

And yeah Falco can just aerial phantasm and runaway. As a matter of fact, that's really just about all he can do and I would advocate all Falco mains to fight Marth that way.

I have said repeatedly that Falco has to camp and use runaway tactics.

Lasers aren't a walk in the park per say, but they aren't as amazing as they are in other match-ups.

I mean really, how can you argue that a match is close to even when one character is faster, stronger with more range and heavier and the other has to runaway and shoot him and will only do 3% and then do phantasms which do 7%. If Marth gets in he can pay that damage back and more with ease.

Not to say Falco doesn't have other tricks or reliable damage builders like his grab combos, but that stuff requires him to take the risk of going for a grab or for Marth to make a mistake and overall mistakes from Falco will cost him alot more then a mistake form Marth will since he is lighter and Marth has the tipper.

 

[gallax]

i main pika and snake but when i know i am gonna be playing a falco i switch to marth cuz the matchup favors marth so much better i think.

 

[Emblem Lord]

*kicks galax in the face

Productive post only plz.

 

[Fizzle]

Lasers aren't a walk in the park per say, but they aren't as amazing as they are in other match-ups.

Agreed. That's all I was trying to prove.

I really, how can you argue that a match is close to even when one character is faster, stronger with more range and heavier and the other has to runaway and shoot him and will only do 3% and then do phantasms which do 7%. If Marth gets in he can pay that damage back and more with ease.

Well, I suppose that's Brawl for ya. I'm not denying that Marth has an advantage in this matchup. Falco, like most short ranged characters, will have a difficult time dealing with Marth's range and speed. But even though I don't main Falco, I think Falco's primary goal in this matchup is to do exactly like you said - play gay with lasers until you find an opening. Once Falco's in, I don't think he has it as bad as they say. Sure, Marth has Dancing Blade, but Falco has a lot of good close range stuff going for him, as well. Phenomenal jab, great grabs, good tilts, and a couple of quick smashes. They might not have the raw power of Marth's smashes, but Falco has a much easier time integrating them into his play.

I suppose 60-40 Marth is reasonable enough, though I'm sure 55-45 wouldn't be far off either.

 

[B-Mon]

It's the running speed combined with his range that gives him an edge over Falco.

And yeah Falco can just aerial phantasm and runaway. As a matter of fact, that's really just about all he can do and I would advocate all Falco mains to fight Marth that way.

I have said repeatedly that Falco has to camp and use runaway tactics.

Lasers aren't a walk in the park per say, but they aren't as amazing as they are in other match-ups.

I really, how can you argue that a match is close to even when one character is faster, stronger with more range and heavier and the other has to runaway and shoot him and will only do 3% and then do phantasms which do 7%. If Marth gets in he can pay that damage back and more with ease.

Not to say Falco doesn't have other tricks or reliable damage builders like his grab combos, but that stuff requires him to take the risk of going for a grab or for Marth to make a mistake and overall mistakes from Falco will cost him alot more then a mistake form Marth will since he is lighter and Marth has the tipper.

Dude you have convinced me. Marth has the advantage in this match-up.
I now see your points and they are all accurate.

6/4 - Marth

But this won't stop me from fighting him.

Nice job though.

 

[SlashTalon]

Finally, some discussion which isn't about bread!
\.

QFT

My opinion is it's relatively even, or a bit tipped in Marth's favor if only because of the damage difference in kill % (Falco=about 90/Marth=about 120)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah, um about that.

Why exactly are there so many threads in this forum about bread?

I mean I know it's become a standard internet meme among our community, but seriously, there has to be at least 3 threads about it in the Falco boards.

 

[zamz]

Yeah, um about that.

Why exactly are there so many threads in this forum about bread?

I mean I know it's become a standard internet meme among our community, but seriously, there has to be at least 3 threads about it in the Falco boards.

All told, I wouldn't doubt there's more than 15 threads about bread in our boards. It's really a painful trend. It was funny once, maybe twice, but now a lot of newer members feel the need to make their 'funnies' and prolong the joke.

 

[ixdnL]

A painful trend is an understatement. It destroyed the Falco board.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

All told, I wouldn't doubt there's more than 15 threads about bread in our boards. It's really a painful trend. It was funny once, maybe twice, but now a lot of newer members feel the need to make their 'funnies' and prolong the joke.

also it's weird b/c falco doesn't even say bread. i'll post my input on the matchup l8er.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

ummm why does this thread exist.

Marth ***** Falco.

-Marth can 0-death falco.
-Marth can escape his chaingrab
-Marth can gimp Falco and punish his recovery.

All falco can do is laser marth.. which isnt much of a deal when marth gets close.

 

[Beetle Juice]

why won't we get a whole bunch of vids of top notch falcos and marths go at it since what i say doesn't matter. Its too early to judge this match up especially since its been constanly changed from 6/4 Falcos favor to 5/5 and now people are saying 4/6 marths favor. Marth cannot constanly abuse his range in which he has to literally be close to falco. Even for a debate i was constantly getting rejected for my reasons by emblem lord. This is a debate emblem lord, and i am debating my reasons, you don't have to like them because thats the point of a debate, and ignore my suggestions is just been ignorant.

Also, have you ever played a high leveled falco before since you stated earlier there is no really good marths on new york.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol.

Your reasoning was honestly terrible and indicated that you knew little about the match-up.

Falco has some good things going for him, but its the little things here and there that add up to give Marth that slight advantage.

I didn't ignore your points. Your points were completely shut down by my points. Hell, Your "points" never even really existed because they were false to begin with.

I was being nice before for the sake of civility, but now I won't hold back.

You didn't debate me sir. I humored your opinion to see if anything you had to say had merit.

It didn't and then I stopped reading your post.

Also the only reason I brought up high level Marth's is because you brought it up first when you said you played good Marth's in NYC.

I generally make it a point to never ever argue with vids or who has played who since it usually just turns into an e-***** measuring contest to see who is a better player overall, and thus who's opinion holds more weight.

Which is stupid because that's not how debates work.

 

[KosukeKGA]

Marth has the advantage, 60:40. The end.

 

[Beetle Juice]

imma leave up to you guys i don't care anymore even if it was at a high level plays it still matters about the average marths and falcos in general because not every is as good or bad.

ex: metaknight can be falco but skilled falcos manage to win (sk92, sethlon) i don't consider myself in any catagory but i am good and proud of my falco but i don't relate or compare to others and i have my own style of playing with him.

 

[zamz]

imma leave up to you guys i don't care anymore even if it was at a high level plays it still matters about the average marths and falcos in general because not every is as good or bad.

ex: metaknight can be falco but skilled falcos manage to win (sk92, sethlon) i don't consider myself in any catagory but i am good and proud of my falco but i don't relate or compare to others and i have my own style of playing with him.

Keep in mind, if a match-up is 40/60 Marth's favor, that still means between equally skilled players Falco will 'win' 40% of the time. Things are tipped slightly in Marth's favor, but Emblem Lord is in no way saying Falco cannot win.

So in your example where "Falco can still win" against Metaknight...it's expected. No match-up is impossible to 'win.' It's just the Falco would have to play harder and probably more flawless than the Metaknight player.

We only look at high level players because we want to know how skilled players compare. The purpose of match-ups are to help with the tournement scene. A match-up chart isn't to represent causals or friendlies, but to represent the highest possible skill in tourenement. In essense, the chart answers the questions: Which character will have an easier time in a competitive tournement if they face each other? What should your counter-pick be against _______?

At the 'lower' levels, match-ups mean a lot less. There's no point writing a chart representing casual players, when skill plays a higher role. A Captain Falcon who has an idea of what he's doing will beat a newer Snake every time...regardless of the 'match-ups.'

 

[Emblem Lord]

People need to read the above post repeatedly.

 

[Beetle Juice]

People need to read the above post repeatedly.

whatever....

anyways I want to know what is the hit stun of marth's fair if someone can input that please I would appriciated.

 

[Hylian]

Marth vs Falco = 70-30 in Marths favor.

Roy_R 3 stocked Sethlon the last time they played in tournament. 3 stocking Sethlon is no easy task >_>.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hylian is going a tad overboard.

Pay him no mind.

The hot sex from Roy_R is clouding his judgment.

 

[Hylian]

Hylian is going a tad overboard.

Pay him no mind.

The hot sex from Roy_R is clouding his judgment.

Fine. 65-35 >_>.

And Roy_R is just too sexy XD.