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Marth sucks

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Varist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
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1,603
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Austin
i'm quitting marth because I thought his range and everything was worth it but it really just isn't. I can't ever get moves out fast enough in the air because gay and I have no pressure. Marth can't pressure anyone I just get ridden so hard. I put hours and hours into marth and I know his strengths but I switched to fox and falco and did like 10x better.

Marth is just so ****ing slow and he can't be safe unless he gets reads or idk. don't tell me i'm wrong

fox is just a better character. i'm so sad. i'm gonna be fox again because whatever. this game is dumb. i need a shine. i don't know wtf to do when I land without one.

stupidest **** was although I kept winning the dittos with marth on FD but lost everywhere else but my fox v marth I lost the FD matches but did great every other stage is minerals.

fox > marth in every conceivable situation, damn it all.

this is not for the social thread because it discusses the viability of two different characters which is a game matter not a social matter ******s.

this is not for the character boards because it discusses two different characters.

this is for here in my home so that you can all see that fox is better than marth and please give me a reason, or anyone a reason, why i should use marth over fox for certain matchups. if you close this perfectly constructive thread because you are grumpy, i will quit melee forever
 

Varist

Smash Lord
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1,603
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Austin
yeah i got a ton of awesome gimps but with fox i literally just jumped out and shined and what the ****. so easy. with marth i gotta set it up and up b them against the wall so they're ****ed or runoff fair

I have put in hundreds of hours into marth. i practiced combos at different percents m2k method style. but the pressure for me is just not there. it's so hard to approach anything and sitting in my shield gets me *****. wd oos gets ***** by spot dodge
 

Vkrm

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
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1,194
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I think Marth just takes a particular mind set to win with. I think you might need to ease up and try outspacing instead of pressuring. To be honest though varist is prob a better Marth, he should be giving me advice

:phone:
 

Varist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
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**** you umbreon you're one of the people who gave me faith in this character and why I put in so much of my last summer practicing him and you're just gonna come in here and say "he's good" why don't you tell me what marth has that no one else has, what is this character so ****ing good at

you have to pressure with marth or you can't win this game Vkrm.
 

Kimimaru

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 19, 2012
Messages
915
Location
CA
Fox isn't better than Marth at everything. Marth's range is great if you can space well, and combos aren't everything, although Marth can be creative with U-tilt, U-air, etc. Marth doesn't have much pressure, but he has an insane grab range which he can use to bait approaches. If you watch videos of good Marths you'll see this often.

Fox has good pressure, but he's pretty much a glass cannon and gets combo'd hard by everyone in the game (I don't understand why people ignore this). He's also pretty hard to play consistently. One mistake can lead to a lost stock.

If Fox fits your playstyle, then go for it, but Marth definitely has his own unique strengths.
 

mesa23

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
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248
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Miami, FL
marth is a terrible character

you should play a good character like donkey kong instead
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
**** you umbreon you're one of the people who gave me faith in this character and why I put in so much of my last summer practicing him and you're just gonna come in here and say "he's good" why don't you tell me what marth has that no one else has, what is this character so ****ing good at
marth is an aggressive character with a strong neutral game, a very strong positional advantage game, and the ability to cut off many options from either a neutral or advantageous position. if your positioning sucks and you play defensive a lot you'll probably get *****.

the main reason to be bad with marth is to commit to something and to get grabbed. fox has this same weakness. if you're doing better with fox, you might be doing something differently or your opponents might just be better against marth. the only real difference is that fox is a much more defensive character.
 

Varist

Smash Lord
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What fine line do I need to walk to be aggressive with marth without committing to anything Umbreon?

I follow the basic principles of positioning while fighting, religiously. I never fight on autopilot, the entire time I'm trying to keep him just out of tipper range and I practiced juggles so hard I almost never dropped them so I can't see what my ridiculous positioning problem is but I do get grabbed a **** load.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
there is no fine line to marth's aggression. you move the character in such a way that it cuts off movement options for the opponent to keep them in a poor position. it lets you be entirely reactive, and your pressure comes from your positional advantage- the opponent cannot attack from a poor position and expect to win, nor can they gain position because you can react to it.

here's an excellent example of what it should look like in its basic form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTru4cfYnkQ

notice that as soon as the match starts, the opponent is already narrowly confined to the top platform and must first return to a neutral position before anything starts. let's follow through it a little bit-

0:09 - ganon jumps and puts himself at a disadvantage, marth takes control of the center of the stage. marth is then free to abuse any option ganon has. ganon has to land, but can't because marth can get him at any point, so he has to attack, and is still punished. there are no outs.

0:11 - marth hits ganon's shield, but cannot be punished for it and ganon is pinned to the edge of the stage with marth at an advantageous position. ganon rolls to assume neutral position, but marth reacts to it with the nair.

0:13 - marth once again has ganon pinned to the edge with total advantage and tries to capitalize on it with a grab, but ganon rolls again to attempt to gain neutral position. marth has an aggressive placement on the stage, but is unable to react because he committed to the grab. this is okay and a judgment call. however, marth also commits to a fsmash from a disadvantageous position and is punished for it. he had to commit twice to get hit, once for ganon to return to somewhere he can operate normally, and then the second for the actual punish

and so forth. just watch the first stock, marth is almost always in a favorable position whether his attacks hit or not simply because the opponent is forced to respond to him. this is what marth's pressure is all about, and it's actually quite good for doing what pressure is supposed to do: open the opponent up for easier hits.
 

AustinRC

Smash Lord
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Dec 11, 2005
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1,482
People just don't know how to use him to his full potential (not saying I do or can though), overall I think he's a tournament viable character top 5 or so. Honestly he's more like Puff basically a zoning character. He has to corner the opponent and simultaneously cut off their options till he gets a hit or grab in and then it's pretty easy from there. Yes he does need reads to land hits or get grabs but come on EVERY character needs reads. Marth players have to learn a LOT to keep up with the other cast but once they do it's not so bad. Just saying.... >.>
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
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11,153
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Jarrettsville, MD
Just switch to Fox. Make sure you send us vids of your next batch of pools match. Can't wait to see you get tossed around like a rag doll by 5 people who know how to combo a spacie.

Anyone placing sidebets on what caused Varist to rage quit Marth? I've either got my money on him having dropped a textbook chain grab for the millionth time or misspaced a fair and got destroyed by some bad character's CCC.
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
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9,633
I gave up Marth for DK.

so much easier to combo people.
 

GhllieShdeKnife

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
687
well sounds like your attitude will get u ***** anyways.
if closing this thread would actually make you quit maybe u should think about quitting for a while.
and fox>scrubs
 

Bob Money

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 6, 2004
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913
Location
Concord
Bad/most marths suck so bad when they they are pressured. Learn how to DI well and not be an idiot in your shield. This can be done by watching PPU (kinda M2k) Mangos marth. Dr. PP

Regardless of offense, players are bad becuase they dont understand/recognize disadvantage situations pertaining to their own character.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
hmm..sounds like a troll post, but i'm bored so i'll bite.

marth has amazing pressure. once an opponent is trapped in shield you can almost always punish any attempt to (waveland the side platform / jump to the top platform /roll) on reaction. roll is a decent mix up because oftentimes marth needs to dash back preemptively to catch the roll. However, the opponent is never ever remotely safe once they are in shield.

Dear God help them!

if marth sh on a proper arc toward the opponent 80% of the cast can't do jack. The other 20% has to give up space in order to deal with it. Most platform stages don't have much space to give up.

Of the stages that do have room to give up space, one of them is FD. FD gives you chaingrabs on fox, falco, and combo setups on falcon. Non guaranteed combo setups from upthrow on marth sheik with advantage from being below you with your godlike range.

Vs jiggs attempts to cross over horizontally above marth are bad because marth has too much range with upair and bair. Ice climbers/fox/falco don't have anywhere near the coverage marth has.


vs luigi/IC the WD reliant char. you have the best boxout in the game.
correcting for accuracy. technically against luigi/iC, peach has a much better boxout. Sheik would have a decent one but I think trades are too dangerous for sheik cause of that chaingrab.




and what are you giving up for all this?

tech skill spam (you can't tech skill people to death)
recovery - you absolutely must learn angled recoveries, how to fake the height of your recovery, how to tech.

you must learn opponent's edgeguarding techniques so that you will know when they will take the ledge and the best times to make them either lose invuln or if they are likely to leave the edge the right timing for up bing slightly high while fastfalling to the ledge (varies by character's edgeguard of choice)

you must master dashdance, including half distance wavedash for slight adjustments to your spacing.

Hmm, was going to write more about how to use dashdance but then i realized all my falco and fox enemies are listening in. Just watch PP; he has the best dashdance in the world.

aerial timing. You must absolutely be able to hit opponents coming up from underneath you with the underside of your fair box. If you just attempt to use the horizontal one like a scrub, you will be ***** ***** ***** *****

must learn to stand still at the right spacings because marth has the best reactive game in the world and reactive tippers are far stronger than running around like an idiot throwing out your fsmash.

must learn to powershield to deal with campy falcos. campy falcos **** you without it. But luckily only like 1/10 falcos is campy enough that it's a problem. Those falcos tend to lose to powershielding marths because they can't mix it up, so then they stop lasering as much. Therefore most falcos these days aren't even laser camping that hard. you can just play from shield somewhat and utilize platforms and still be fine. Important thing to realize is that lasers that tag you while they are not in the correct range to land a solid hit don't matter that much. so eat a few lasers while closing if you call the wrong laser height, just don't eat one that gets you comboed.

vs falcon, your techchasing is goldlike, easily averaging 15-25% and sending opponents offstage or comboing them into the air afterwards. Don't just techchase only grab like a scrub. you can set up tippers, fairs, dairs, the works.

Marth isn't that bad. at least you can approach both on the ground and the air. ICs have to be facing backward to have a decent aerial approach

Reactive Marth >>>> stupidly attacking Marth

best part is you can be moving and reevaluate the spacing constantly. The biggest gap i've noticed between marths at the top is that they reevaluate every dash length or movement and don't just continue going for an attack because they planned to 15 frames ago.

However, this is true of every char, even fox. It's just that when fox screws up he has a much higher chance of getting out for free (shine, jabs, decent spotdodge, and better recovery once set off stage).

Honestly though, in my opinion any top 6 character is capable of getting within top 10 at a national. People are bad at this game. Every time I watch myself I see a million places for improvement in every matchup. Also marth gets freaking ***** if he mistimes a dash away by even a frame or two. Always use the same controller for tourneys, but break in a new controller in advance for when you break the control stick. If your controller starts to go bad during a tourney, switch to a more ground based style so you don't have to dash away after aerials or try to insert more moves after aerials than you would normally. You will probably trade at times, but it's probably better than relying on dash away when your timing is off. Personally I would probably just not enter if I thought my controller had gone bad, but most people try anyway.
 

CableCho57

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
1,656
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Goleta/Santa Barbara, CA
Marth is duper underrated and harder than he looks

I feel his metagame went in a bad direction when m2k started to main him.
that style works for m2k, but when everyone tries to emulate him, they become trash
 

Varist

Smash Lord
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Austin
i'm just not smart enough to play marth. maybe fox can be my stupid decision buffer. But I crumble under pressure so easily, and my choices go to ****, and being the one pressuring may not help that. If Fox doesn't work out and I still want to play Marth I'll just go jiggs for a month or two. Jiggs teaches the lessons critical for Marth
 
D

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playing a character that has to worry about stage control the least teaches you how to play one that loses when he loses stage control?
 

Varist

Smash Lord
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I already know how to control stage umbreon the skill I'm talking about is covering options with a character who's kind of slow but has great range. my positional advantage doesn't mean **** if I keep letting people just bait my **** and sneak by me and **** me sideways
 

Oneupsalesman

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May 7, 2012
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See, I don't really care. Yes, Fox might be low-tier, but when you people pull that "MARTH SUCKS BECAUSE HE ISN'T A SPACIE" this game kind of turns into Fox vs Falco: The Game.

So, yeah, maybe Marth doesn't have all of the advantages that Fox has, but if Taj and Axe can do what they do by putting in so much practice with Mewtwo and Pikachu, then you can sure as crap do well with a top-tier character like Marth if you practice and are suited for him.
 
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