Marth matchup discussion

[saviorslegacy]

I thought that since it was being discussed it should get its own thread.

ok on a more serious note. Sheik marth is about 55-45 or slight advantage for marth or whatever its real close. We rack damage a little easier than him he kills a little easier than we do. We have a more solid close and long range game but he wins mid range. Its fairly even and fun. The only thing that gives him the advantage is 2 situations. 1 is that dancing blade can make him running at us a problem. If you dont know how to deal with Dancing blade ur gonna get *****. Lastly once we are at the ledge trying to get back on is a tough spot for sheik. Marth is one of the best chars in the game in this position. Other than that tho its close to even but in his favor slightly. Both character gimp the other equally well IMO.

We can keep marth offstage for a hella long time. All this is coming from countless matches with Xisin who was and probably still is the best marth in the MW.

60-40 Marth.

Marth makes life difficult for us. That being said, we can fight him very well up close and we have needles which allow us to dictate a little bit. Offstage isn't as awesome against Marth. Pick and choose your spots offstage wisely.

I think it's 60-40 for the reasons said above but also because his defensive options out of shield are really really good (blaaaah mikehaze).

id buy 6-4 sure. But as long as we agree that marth isnt as bad as MK because hes definitely not.

yea i like

close to unwinnable
large disadvantage
solid disadvantage
slight disadvantage
even
slight advantage
solid advantage
large advantage
close to unlosable

id put marth at slight disadvantage personally and Mk at solid disadvantage

 

[saviorslegacy]

IMO the match up isn't that bad. The only real problem is fighting off stage and trying to get back to the stage. Marth can pretty much punish anything you do to try and get back to the stage.

A few important things to remember are....
1. He can DS out of your f-tilt lock. Mix up shielding into your lock and punish him for using DS.
2. Chain is horrible to use in this match up... SO DON'T USE IT!
3. Needles are amazing for forcing approaches. Just remember, if he is in DA range don't use them.
4. If he hits your shield with Fair you can punish with DA.
5. Don't DACUS to much.... he can punish it to easily.
6. Jabs are amazing.
7. Try and juggle Marth with your grabs, they really help in this match up.
8. Best stage to fight him at is Final Destination.

 

[-Mars-]

Bro do you want to start doing the matchup discussions?......you seem to be doing them anyway.

 

[saviorslegacy]

My goal is to get Sheik as advanced as possible before I leave. One thing to ensure this is to try and keep everything organized. That's why I made the post. If it would have stayed in the social thread we would have missed out on a lot of discussing.
If you don't want to do it then sure, I'll take it over.

 

[riocosta123]

Is 4 true? If he doesn't fast fall the fair or does it while rising can you still hit him? What about the tip?

I only ask because Marth can hang in the air for a long time.

 

[Judo777]

Is 4 true? If he doesn't fast fall the fair or does it while rising can you still hit him? What about the tip?

I only ask because Marth can hang in the air for a long time.

Its situational. Just gotta base it on experience but if he does a standard sh fair you can punish it.

Also SL i gotta say chain actually definitely has its uses in this MU. IF you pull it out while he is on the ledge like i always do marth really has absolutely no answer. Marths only answer for chain normally is to counter it but he cant drop in on us from the right angle off stage. You can get alot of free damage by chaining at the right distance from the ledge (just outside of getup attack range).

Also using the chain to punish landings or if you can ever scare him into shield you can use it to drain his shield and get about 30%. This use is far more situational but when it works it helps a whole lot.

 

[-Mars-]

Judo could you run down the matchup for me? Probably played thousands of Marth-Sheik matches yet i'm always so frustrated.

Also does his dthrow to regrab or fsmash or dair legit on Sheik?

 

[Judo777]

Judo could you run down the matchup for me? Probably played thousands of Marth-Sheik matches yet i'm always so frustrated.

Also does his dthrow to regrab or fsmash or dair legit on Sheik?

will maybe after tomorrow big test.

And yes fthrow fthrow tipper fsmash, as well as fthrow fthrow tipper dair is guaranteed on us. Try to avoid grabs at 0. Also if u get caught with a tipper dair offstage be sooooo freaking careful in how you respond i almost lost a match where i was up 150% that way be mega careful in ur response to that. like A game focus at that point.

Also dthrow can apparently work out of
buffered dash like i have heard 10 times in a row tho Xisin could never pull it off. he said it goes into tipper fsmash but idk if thats true.

 

[sheikamaru]

funny... i'll be facing a marth tonight....

 

[clowsui]

will maybe after tomorrow big test.

And yes fthrow fthrow tipper fsmash, as well as fthrow fthrow tipper dair is guaranteed on us. Try to avoid grabs at 0. Also if u get caught with a tipper dair offstage be sooooo freaking careful in how you respond i almost lost a match where i was up 150% that way be mega careful in ur response to that. like A game focus at that point.

Also dthrow can apparently work out of
buffered dash like i have heard 10 times in a row tho Xisin could never pull it off. he said it goes into tipper fsmash but idk if thats true.

steel should've jumped and spiked you again -___-; stupid low risk style

he'll get you next time

i just wanna say that this matchup is MISERABLE for sheik once she gets on the ledge

fortunately you can put marth in a bad spot too when he's on the ledge esp w/ third jump lag...but i don't think it's quite as bad for him as it is for sheik

 

[Juushichi]

Marth is quite the ***** to fight against. On stage it's not so bad, really. A more competent Marth trying to edgeguard with me coming back on stage is the worst thing ever. That's what seems to shift this from a slight disadvantage to just a pure-out disadvantage.

 

[Judo777]

steel should've jumped and spiked you again -___-; stupid low risk style

he'll get you next time

i just wanna say that this matchup is MISERABLE for sheik once she gets on the ledge

fortunately you can put marth in a bad spot too when he's on the ledge esp w/ third jump lag...but i don't think it's quite as bad for him as it is for sheik

I thought i spaced my jump pretty well it would have been pretty tough to spike me again. he would have had to landed and like perfectly tipper another one at the ledge. Yea he could have but i thought i reacted pretty well. And I don't plan on losing to any marths for a while

At Juu this is a tough postion for sheik against everyone and its amplified by marths strength there. However as sheiks we should be very very good at getting off the ledge by now so i think that evens it out a little. You just have to understand ur options and the spacing he has to be at required to stuff those options.

Its kinda like snake. Snake is a character who requires you to not make mistakes cause they hurt. This is amplified by the fact that as sheik mistakes hurt even more. However the reason sheiks are fairly good against snakes is cause we are used to having to not make mistakes to win. I think that is a good analogy lol

 

[clowsui]

I haven't been playing the Sheik MU w/ Steel very much recently I'll play him w Sheik before SiiS4 and he'll get you

Eh idk I think Marth, even if he makes mistakes, puts Sheik in bad positions that Sheik has to react to pretty quickly unless the Sheik doesn't wanna eat more damage. But you're correct in saying that Sheiks everywhere will have quicker reactions to their mistakes than most, so in the end it evens out a little I guess

 

[Zankoku]

I feel like even though Marth can put Sheik in bad situations, Sheik's moveset and speed causes Marth to become especially punishable on things that wouldn't normally get punished.

 

[Judo777]

I haven't been playing the Sheik MU w/ Steel very much recently I'll play him w Sheik before SiiS4 and he'll get you

Eh idk I think Marth, even if he makes mistakes, puts Sheik in bad positions that Sheik has to react to pretty quickly unless the Sheik doesn't wanna eat more damage. But you're correct in saying that Sheiks everywhere will have quicker reactions to their mistakes than most, so in the end it evens out a little I guess

haha we'll see in the meantime i have been playing with Xisin some recently

 

[Tewx2]

I feel like even though Marth can put Sheik in bad situations, Sheik's moveset and speed causes Marth to become especially punishable on things that wouldn't normally get punished.

I always feel like even if I get a punish in, it doesn't make a huge difference, almost everything is unfollow up-able, which means you have continue waiting for him to make a mistake. Which is fine if you're playing a Marth that frequently makes mistakes, but a truly safe marth? I see no hope.

 

[Judo777]

I always feel like even if I get a punish in, it doesn't make a huge difference, almost everything is unfollow up-able, which means you have continue waiting for him to make a mistake. Which is fine if you're playing a Marth that frequently makes mistakes, but a truly safe marth? I see no hope.

you cant follow marth up safely everytime but treat it like a juggle with snake. If snake bairs it beats all our aerials but if you bait it it can be free damage. Plus the goal is that everytime you punish him try and force him offstage. Thats where we get most of our damage and kills.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

My two cents on this MU

If we get grabbed at 0% and are about to get Fthrow(x2) -> Dair, use your 2nd jump immediately and then tether the ledge. Marth has absolutely no option to stop this. It may even place us into a position to have an advantage but that needs more testing.

Needles are a godsend in this MU; Marth has to land eventually and that's when he should get wasted by needles. Running grounded pivot needles are a great offensive retreating option.

Unless you are hit up close or not too good at SDI, try and DI away from dancing blades. DB is the single most obnoxious move in his arsenal.

lrn2powershield because it will be another huge thing in this MU.

Lastly, imo, gimping Marth is a giant misconception. If you are hasty in trying to gimp him, Marth may use DB1 to hit you and then launch you into the stage with ^B. Someone needs to test if we can attack before ^B comes out because if not, I'd say gimping Marth is a "how comfortable are you offstage" thing.

 

[-Mars-]

A really cool trick that is extremely risky is jumping behind marth when he's just about to use up b and then using the tether to steal the ledge.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

The key phrase is "extremely risky" but yea it works so long as the chain doesn't betray you and decide not to grab the ledge lol. Literally, sometimes the chain gives me this.....

 

[saviorslegacy]

A better idea is to just dangle at the end of your chain and edge hog him that way. He can't do anything!

 

[Tewx2]

He can Dancing blade once then dolphin slash.

 

[saviorslegacy]

= not serious
Seriously though, dangling at the end of your chain is probably the worst idea ever. I thought I was smart and done it once..... nope, not smart. Marth will ALWAYS hit you with the start up of DS and you will ALWAYS get stage spiked. Pretty much, it's like saying, "Here, I will die and let you get back safely, sound like a good trade off?"

 

[Tewx2]

I feel dumb

 

[Judo777]

= not serious
Seriously though, dangling at the end of your chain is probably the worst idea ever. I thought I was smart and done it once..... nope, not smart. Marth will ALWAYS hit you with the start up of DS and you will ALWAYS get stage spiked. Pretty much, it's like saying, "Here, I will die and let you get back safely, sound like a good trade off?"

I mean its not a completely stupid idea its a HUGE risk HUGE reward situation. If you time the retraction right marth dies. If you time it wrong you die lol. If you do it early you just have to get off and he gets the ledge but its not completely useless.

 

[-Mars-]

O yea and Marth doesn't really get gimped very often if at all even by characters like MK.

 

[choknater]

needles screw with his recovery pretty bad lol

i beat marth using unreliable surprise tactics

key word beat

if u try to space him u will usually win, but sheik has the upper hand in horizontal ground control, even though marth's is good. if he is jumping around, space urself on the ground and charge needles and get ready to dash attack, dash grab, perhaps dacus if he has an opening. or the safer option is to just stand there.

bair and nair are good cuz they are fast

i like this matchup

 

[Tewx2]

Marth can avoid having openings. No offense but when you say you beat Marths the key word is not beat, the key word isn't in your sentence. The word "notable" needs to be in there for it to be good proof.

Bad Marths will frame trap themselves, and that's the kind of Marth you're describing. A good marth can play virtually frame safe, and while we have I guess decent tools for taking him down it's all moot if he doesn't make a mistake or get caught by surprise.

I guess that's why I don't like this MU. It always feels like it's out of my hands.

But I'm a recklessly aggro player, so it could just be my lack of patience.

 

[Judo777]

Marth can avoid having openings. No offense but when you say you beat Marths the key word is not beat, the key word isn't in your sentence. The word "notable" needs to be in there for it to be good proof.

Bad Marths will frame trap themselves, and that's the kind of Marth you're describing. A good marth can play virtually frame safe, and while we have I guess decent tools for taking him down it's all moot if he doesn't make a mistake or get caught by surprise.

I guess that's why I don't like this MU. It always feels like it's out of my hands.

But I'm a recklessly aggro player, so it could just be my lack of patience.

I play notable marths. And no marth cannot be frame safe. Needles stuff all of marths moves. So yes while marth can avoid getting hit up close the fact that marth has to remain at one and only one range is very tricky for him. If he gets to close everything becomes punishable. Too far needles are free. At the right range marths only safe aerial is a COMPLETELY retreated aerial. Like he has to SH beackwards and fair and that is safe against close hits. However that can be needled like very jump attempt. If marth tries a FH fair moving fwd then a retreating second one.... that is punishable via DA.

 

[-Mars-]

Yea I don't understand how you think Marth can stay frame safe in this matchup when everytime he jumps and doesn't hit our shield we can punish his landing lag with needles. Also if you powershield most of Marth's stuff he all of a sudden doesn't seem so Godly.

 

[phi1ny3]

If you powershield most of everyone's stuff they aren't Celestial Status either.

That's a good indicator of a predictable opponent.

Although you're right about needles punishing stuff.

 

[Judo777]

If you powershield most of everyone's stuff they aren't Celestial Status either.

That's a good indicator of a predictable opponent.

Although you're right about needles punishing stuff.

But this is particularly easy against marth because of a special trait of marths. Tippers. Marths will go for tipper quite often because they are amazing and allow him to deal stellar damage and knockback. Because he has to be X range away with Y timing powershielding marth is easier than other characters.

 

[Browny]

.......



Thats some pretty pretentious theory-crafting right there.

Please divulge, which characters in this game DONT try to hit at maximum range? The only difference with marth is that he gets a bonus for hitting at max range. I dont know about you but when I play ANY character I always aim to hit at the absolute maximum range unless it is something like Ike/falco fsmash which has less knockback. I mean surely I dont have to explain why going to maximum range is almost always the best option to every character >_<

Marth is not unique in this predictability aspect at all. The only real difference is the fact that he has a lot of range to work with so his margin for error is greater. But then if he does slightly mess up his spacing, that applies to every other character too.

 

[culexus・wau]

.......



Thats some pretty pretentious theory-crafting right there.

Please divulge, which characters in this game DONT try to hit at maximum range? The only difference with marth is that he gets a bonus for hitting at max range and a nerf for not. I dont know about you but when I play ANY character I always aim to hit at the absolute maximum range unless it is something like Ike/falco fsmash which has less knockback. I mean surely I dont have to explain why going to maximum range is always the best option to every character >_<

Marth is not unique in this predictability aspect at all. The only real difference is the fact that he has a lot of range to work with so his margin for error is greater. But then if he does slightly mess up his spacing, that applies to every other character too.

idk browny but If you know the marth is going to go for tippers only if you just wait in non tipper range this logic might work.

however this logic also assumes marth won't mix-up non-tipper attacks, I think I rather get a hit if its not tipper, then no hit at all. which is why I can see its terrible theorycraft.

it was kinda a good post, he just didn't state counter-arguements and just assumed that its right completely.

 

[Judo777]

.......



Thats some pretty pretentious theory-crafting right there.

Please divulge, which characters in this game DONT try to hit at maximum range? The only difference with marth is that he gets a bonus for hitting at max range. I dont know about you but when I play ANY character I always aim to hit at the absolute maximum range unless it is something like Ike/falco fsmash which has less knockback. I mean surely I dont have to explain why going to maximum range is almost always the best option to every character >_<

Marth is not unique in this predictability aspect at all. The only real difference is the fact that he has a lot of range to work with so his margin for error is greater. But then if he does slightly mess up his spacing, that applies to every other character too.

everyone goes for max range.......excpet for people who are trying to set up combos and followup. Spacing bairs with sheik for example is gonna get a hit and then thats it. However its just as common to go for a very up close weak hit nair to attempt to follow it up afterward. Marth however i believe gets frame advantage for hitting people with tippers so unless it knocks them simply too far away marth rarely doesn't want to get tipper.

Not to mention that it is more common for characters to have stronger hitboxes closer to them then at max range. Most moves in the game are typically weaker at max range because most hitboxes are weaker there.

Oh and its funny that you assume that i am theory crafting because all of this is just from playing Xisin and Steel Samurai. Xisin gets frustrated with how much I powershield in this MU because marths go for alot more tippers cause they are better 9 times out of 10 which is not always true for other characters. Combine this with how much marths emphasize perfect spacing its a little easier.

 

[Browny]

Marth however i believe gets frame advantage for hitting people with tippers so unless it knocks them simply too far away marth rarely doesn't want to get tipper.

No, he actually doesnt (assuming he is approaching a sheik ready to shield). tipper hits on shield are worse for marth. the advantage is in the knockback on shield, however in a pure fram-counting sense, its better to non-tip.

Not to mention that it is more common for characters to have stronger hitboxes closer to them then at max range. Most moves in the game are typically weaker at max range because most hitboxes are weaker there.

Lets see for the characters I play and know well...

Lucario attacks which are weaker at max range...
-ftilt

Sonic
-uair
-ftilt

MK
-nair

Luigi
-none?

Wario
-nair

Im seeing a trend here. Not only are the VAST majority of attacks the exact same at max range, but all attacks which are weaker at range are multi-hit. funny how marth only has one of those attacks. I could easily list every single character and show how mis-informed your statement is but its pretty obvious.

Oh and its funny that you assume that i am theory crafting because all of this is just from playing Xisin and Steel Samurai. Xisin gets frustrated with how much I powershield in this MU because marths go for alot more tippers cause they are better 9 times out of 10 which is not always true for other characters. Combine this with how much marths emphasize perfect spacing its a little easier.

I dont think youre theorycrafting because of what you say is possible, I think WHY you say its possible, is theorycraft. Ever consider the possiblity that the marths you play are acting like robots,
If range =< X
general direction of enemy = NSEW
input (NESW) attack

etc. where its pretty damn easy to tell when they are going to attack. The fact that you regularly PS his moveset which is all well below reaction time kind of shows that this is the likely scenario. Now tell me how that is different for any other character, from MK to ganondorf.

What I think youre getting at here, is that you ps marth more often than others not because he is 'easier' to PS in an intrinsic sense, but becase marth players typically throw out attacks all day long with little regard for leaving himself open (althought not punishable) due to how naturally safe his moves are. any vid of mh4ze v al1y will show what im reffering to here. What im saying, is that marth is not easy to powershield, his attacks are too fast. However marth PLAYERS might be easy to PS due to how they are always fishing for tippers.

Is this a fair call to say how to play the matchup though? What if you played a marth who enters fair range but simply waits a fraction of a second before FF'ing it.

Its not fair for me to assume that this actually matters, if you can regularly PS marth then thats all the proof you need. However I dont think its fair that you assume a typical marth player is going to be making the same mistakes with robotic approaches repeatedly to make punishing him muscle memory.

 

[Judo777]

No, he actually doesnt (assuming he is approaching a sheik ready to shield). tipper hits on shield are worse for marth. the advantage is in the knockback on shield, however in a pure fram-counting sense, its better to non-tip.


Lets see for the characters I play and know well...

Lucario attacks which are weaker at max range...
-ftilt

Sonic
-uair
-ftilt

MK
-nair

Luigi
-none?

Wario
-nair

Im seeing a trend here. Not only are the VAST majority of attacks the exact same at max range, but all attacks which are weaker at range are multi-hit. funny how marth only has one of those attacks. I could easily list every single character and show how mis-informed your statement is but its pretty obvious.



I dont think youre theorycrafting because of what you say is possible, I think WHY you say its possible, is theorycraft. Ever consider the possiblity that the marths you play are acting like robots,
If range =< X
general direction of enemy = NSEW
input (NESW) attack

etc. where its pretty damn easy to tell when they are going to attack. The fact that you regularly PS his moveset which is all well below reaction time kind of shows that this is the likely scenario. Now tell me how that is different for any other character, from MK to ganondorf.

What I think youre getting at here, is that you ps marth more often than others not because he is 'easier' to PS in an intrinsic sense, but becase marth players typically throw out attacks all day long with little regard for leaving himself open (althought not punishable) due to how naturally safe his moves are. any vid of mh4ze v al1y will show what im reffering to here. What im saying, is that marth is not easy to powershield, his attacks are too fast. However marth PLAYERS might be easy to PS due to how they are always fishing for tippers.

Is this a fair call to say how to play the matchup though? What if you played a marth who enters fair range but simply waits a fraction of a second before FF'ing it.

Its not fair for me to assume that this actually matters, if you can regularly PS marth then thats all the proof you need. However I dont think its fair that you assume a typical marth player is going to be making the same mistakes with robotic approaches repeatedly to make punishing him muscle memory.

well firstly ur list is really freaking fair off. You didn't even list the important moves like snakes utilt. marths utilt and usmash i believe are also weaker tippered which i figured you would have thrown in but w/e.

Let me try a few more,

Kirby's fsmash is way weaker at max range. Olimars fsmash is weaker at max range as well as usmash i believe.

on top of that ur forgetting all of the characters who moves while not weaker at max range dont do the same things at max range. Like most jabs in the game, sheiks fsmash (which you want to either hit when they are right on you or after the second swing which wont happen.) The chain is actually significantly worse at max range. There are a whole lot of moves that are much better at certain ranges then other. Most lugis dont try to hit you with edges of hitboxs cause their moves are better up close and thats where they are trying to get anyway.

It just so happens that marths ideal range on his attacks just so happen to be the first frame he can hit you with them.

Btw i meant frame advantage on hit. Your goal isn't to get moves shielded your goal is to hit ur opponent and get the most frame advantage on it. You obv. dont want to get tippers shielded its the same as lightning kicks.

MK isn't quite as easy to PS because his moves are faster obviously but more importantly MK's moves are so safe that PSing them doesnt even get you punishes all the time. Who plays ganon?

Anyway im done arguing. The point is while some people attampt to attack people at max range with moves marths try to do it as much or more because unlike many other character marth has few moves that it isn't ideal to hit at max range. The marths i play don't play like robots however marths typical spacing maneuvers are fairly repteative.

 

[clowsui]

yeah pretty much what judo is saying that sheik has to be a powershielding demon in this MU otherwise it's not happening for her, lol

powershield marth tip = free punish
don't powershield marth tip = he has positional advantage and is pressuring your shield, two birds one stone

simple as that.

if marth knows how to use untipped moves in this MU it makes it a little harder for sheik actually

on the one hand you have the clear advantages of marth using tipped moves

but in this mu i think marth needs the space/position given to him by DB more than damage. he needs the position that untipped dtilt gives him on hit (since it's not safe to whiff in this MU he can't use the range/frame trap). he needs the kill power of utilt rather than the damage, awkward hitbox angle of dsmash etc.

so based on character attributes in this mu he has mixup. dunno if i phrased my ideas very accurately but there it is lol

 

[phi1ny3]

Instead of relying on ftilt locking, I usually just do ftilt -> dsmash.

 

[Browny]

well firstly ur list is really freaking fair off. You didn't even list the important moves like snakes utilt. marths utilt and usmash i believe are also weaker tippered which i figured you would have thrown in but w/e.

No its not? I stated for characters i know and play well, which in that case I feel its about 100% accurate.

If i felt like doing others

Snake
-utilt

Kirby
-fsmash
-dsmash

diddy
-none?

Its not hard. and thats besides the point. your claim was the most attacks in the game are weaker at range and thats just completely wrong. For every snake utilt, kirby fsmash etc which is stronger at a base, there are 10 attacks which are the exact same at range.

Also iir Marths usmash can not technically tipper either since the non-tipper hitbox sucks people into the tipper one anyway, it does the exact same damage/knockback. And as for utilt, the tipper does more damage but only the reverse hit of the non-tip has more KO potential. Its a completely unique attack in that regard.