Marth is the best character in the game.

[Emblem Lord]

Fox and Marth gang bang the entire cast with no condoms.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Its like having a carpenter do a doctors job.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Thats a very odd...but precise way of putting it.

(to both stripes and emblem)

 

[ArcNatural]

While the fact that Marth won a majority of the tournaments is true, the number of sheiks, falcos, and foxes still made up the majority of the top 10 most of the time. Which I think factors into the tier list. I think there was only 1 time where there were actually 2 Marth mains placing 1st and 2nd in a tourney, but you always saw at least 2 foxes in the top 10. While it's too late for it to really matter before brawl comes out, maybe if Azen, M2k, and Ken were all playing Marth seriously at the same time for a longer period it would have been reflected on the tier list. So while Marth won a lot of the major tournaments, the fact is that a majority of players can't pick him and and play as well in tournaments as Ken, Azen and M2k have.

 

[SOPF]

Freakin gross man, now I got a mental image of Fox and Marth barebackin everyone. Because of you, Emblem Lord, I have died a lil inside today.

As to this thread's topic, Marth is gifted in his many strengths but I don't think he's THE best. At most I could understand him being tied with Fox for that title but he doesnt out shine Fox ( I get bonus points for the shine pun +2) Besides even if I'm wrong and Marth is the best, he's not completely undefeatable or anything like that because if that were the case he'd be banned from tournies.

 

[Rune]

The tier lists are supposed to reflect each characters ultimate potential, that's why they're roughly based on the pro's instead of the masses. Is Fox' potential higher than Marth's? Yes.

One could argue a perfect Marth could hold a Fox at a distance with his perfect timing, but that would only work if the game didn't involve mindgames, dodging and lag abuse. A lot of mindgames are no more than gambling, you can't be perfect at guessing, you can only be lucky and luck doesn't last forever. A perfect Fox will get through Marth's wall, no matter how great his timing, spacing or mindgames are, and commence infinite combo'ing him all over the stage.

The game prevents perfection, since its characters are inherently flawed.
This topic is hypothetical, obvious and uninteresting.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

While the fact that Marth won a majority of the tournaments is true, the number of sheiks, falcos, and foxes still made up the majority of the top 10 most of the time. Which I think factors into the tier list. I think there was only 1 time where there were actually 2 Marth mains placing 1st and 2nd in a tourney, but you always saw at least 2 foxes in the top 10. While it's too late for it to really matter before brawl comes out, maybe if Azen, M2k, and Ken were all playing Marth seriously at the same time for a longer period it would have been reflected on the tier list. So while Marth won a lot of the major tournaments, the fact is that a majority of players can't pick him and and play as well in tournaments as Ken, Azen and M2k have.

the only reason that there's so many fox and falco's in the top 10 most of the time is because everyoen plays fox and falco. ****, i main falco and secondary fox. o.O

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

The tier lists are supposed to reflect each characters ultimate potential, that's why they're roughly based on the pro's instead of the masses. Is Fox' potential higher than Marth's? Yes.

One could argue a perfect Marth could hold a Fox at a distance with his perfect timing, but that would only work if the game didn't involve mindgames, dodging and lag abuse. A lot of mindgames are no more than gambling, you can't be perfect at guessing, you can only be lucky and luck doesn't last forever. A perfect Fox will get through Marth's wall, no matter how great his timing, spacing or mindgames are, and commence infinite combo'ing him all over the stage.

The game prevents perfection, since its characters are inherently flawed.
This topic is hypothetical, obvious and uninteresting.

Owned, GG, no re.

I enjoyed reading this post ^^

 

[The King]

If the tier list were decided solely on tourney results, Marth would've had the #1 spot since forever, because Ken held like a 95% win ratio with Marth at every major tournament for years. Yet even with Ken ****** everybody, Marth still wasn't at the #1 spot. People understood that it wasn't because Marth is the best character in the game, it's because Ken was the best player that that's who he chose to use as his main.

Mew2king switched from Fox to Marth for who knows why; maybe he got bored of fox, maybe he felt his style was more suited to playing marth.

Either way, tourney results do not directly mirror the tier list's construction. There would be way too many factors to take into account if that's how it were to be done (bad matchups, counterpicks, varying levels of player skill, format of the tourney, etc). In the end, Marth is Top tier for a reason; he's a really ****ing good character with a lot of strong qualities. His exact placement in the tier list, however, is based mainly upon his matchups among the high-tier characters. He struggles vs Sheik, can go even with Falco, and has a slightly disadvantageous matchup vs Fox. Falco can go even against fox, sheik and marth. And Fox is just Fox; he can annihilate everybody if played technically and properly.

Marth's good, but he isn't the best in this game. He's just Ken, Mew2king and Azen's best character.

King Out

 

[JesiahTEG]

If the tier list were decided solely on tourney results, Marth would've had the #1 spot since forever, because Ken held like a 95% win ratio with Marth at every major tournament for years. Yet even with Ken ****** everybody, Marth still wasn't at the #1 spot. People understood that it wasn't because Marth is the best character in the game, it's because Ken was the best player that that's who he chose to use as his main.

Mew2king switched from Fox to Marth for who knows why; maybe he got bored of fox, maybe he felt his style was more suited to playing marth.

Either way, tourney results do not directly mirror the tier list's construction. There would be way too many factors to take into account if that's how it were to be done (bad matchups, counterpicks, varying levels of player skill, format of the tourney, etc). In the end, Marth is Top tier for a reason; he's a really ****ing good character with a lot of strong qualities. His exact placement in the tier list, however, is based mainly upon his matchups among the high-tier characters. He struggles vs Sheik, can go even with Falco, and has a slightly disadvantageous matchup vs Fox. Falco can go even against fox, sheik and marth. And Fox is just Fox; he can annihilate everybody if played technically and properly.

Marth's good, but he isn't the best in this game. He's just Ken, Mew2king and Azen's best character.

King Out

I'll go with that.

 

[The Brawler]

yup your right Marth IS the best player in the whole game and i'm the best marth player in the world

 

[Aesir]

marth has two bad match ups.

CF and sheik. >_>

fox vs marth is the most even match up in the game. Also the m2k bit he's said it before he uses marth because its easier to get winning results with him then fox.

 

[FrostByte]

Marth vs Falcon is most probably more in Marth's favor than Falco or Fox. Apparently, M2K now mains Marth because of controller johns.

 

[Deleted member]

rune: tier lists have been based on tournaments, not potential, since at least 2003 when I started voting for them. If you wanted to go with potential, sheik would mop the floor with fox, as sheik can do everything fox can do but without shine and with more range/priority, which is more useful. Potentially speaking, marth is only 4th best. Tiers aren't based on potential though, so it's a moot point.

as per the perfect marth vs perfect fox idea, top level of play is 90%+ tech skill and fox has no tools against marth rather than to out-tech him, which would not longer be a possibility.

king: m2k plays marth because he's easier to with. same reason he still plays fox in teams, easiest to win with. marth sucks in teams, but that's for another discussion.

before you were in the MBR, they used to have 2 seperate topics for tier voting, your reasoning behind your vote in the stuff you explained, and the other one your list with no explanation. This is because before that it was all in 1 topic and the placing debate degraded quickly if I recall correctly. If you check the old tier lists on wikipedia you'll see a lot of stuff that might seem blatantly wrong, but that's because those characters were better in the metagame at the time and placing better in tournaments. I'm not sure when people switched to voting for potential if that's the case currently, but that's not what the tier list is for. From my knowledge, the tier list was always the basis of tournament play within the current metagame, specifically.

Correction. PC beat KDJ with Fox at MLG Vegas 2006 Championship which was the last major MLG tourney.

He also used falco vs everyone else that entire tournament, including KDJ in winners bracket. Just for thought.

 

[Aesir]

Marth vs Falcon is most probably more in Marth's favor than Falco or Fox. Apparently, M2K now mains Marth because of controller johns.

LKs opinion > yours >_>

 

[JesiahTEG]

Eh, I just think Marth is the best character overall.

Besides, m2k ken and azen have all played both marth and fox and all 3 do better as marth despite that all 3 have completely different styles.

 

[Deleted member]

http://www.smashwiki.com/wiki/List_of_previous_tier_lists#First_tier_list_.28October_8.2C_2002.29

for reference.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

On a side note. Aesir, your sig scares the hell out of me...

Frostbyte, I'd have to agree with aesir wholeheartedly, due to the fact falcon gives me more trouble than spacies usually, even with the space animal user has greater skill...just hard to deal with a falcon I suppose. I'd actually rather fight a skilled shiek than a skilled falcon.

Nice post rune

 

[Overswarm]

M2K told me that he played Marth because he had the most experience with him, and therefore would be the easiest for him to play effectively. Fox took a lot of skill, Marth did not, and he had experience with Marth already.

However, M2K would disagree with this thread, I believe. He told me in very certain terms that

"Sheik is the best character. She has no weaknesses."

Whether that is true or not has yet to be truly discovered, but he definitely has statistics to back him up.

 

[Rune]

rune: tier lists have been based on tournaments, not potential, since at least 2003 when I started voting for them. If you wanted to go with potential, sheik would mop the floor with fox, as sheik can do everything fox can do but without shine and with more range/priority, which is more useful. Potentially speaking, marth is only 4th best. Tiers aren't based on potential though, so it's a moot point.

as per the perfect marth vs perfect fox idea, top level of play is 90%+ tech skill and fox has no tools against marth rather than to out-tech him, which would not longer be a possibility.

No, tier list have not been based on tournaments, top level tournament play is simply the closest thing to seeing character being used to their full known potential. I was in the backroom in 2003 or so, voting was done by heart and the lists varied wildly. Tourney outcomes helped shape public opinion, but not nearly to a degree where I could state tier lists are based on tournaments.

As for Sheik having potential, how on earth did you come to that conclusion? The only reason Sheik was uber in past years, is because she's easy to 'master'. She's in many ways slower than Fox, and misses the one thing that makes Fox the best character in the game (reflector). No she can not do everything Fox can without a reflector, that's utter nonsense, her aerials are not lagless. Sheik has already shown basically all of her potential, there just isn't much more to squeeze out of her, basic beyond basic.
Potentially speaking, only Fox is better than Marth, Sheik is crap and Falco's reflector is only half as useful.

As for Fox' only weapon against Marth being tech skill.. what? Speed? Reflector? Fox as a character is far faster than Marth, no matter how perfect the players, and eventhough Marth has some killer moves, none of them will kill you at 0%, unlike Fox' reflector.

No offense, but your comment made no sense at all.

PS:

"Sheik is the best character. She has no weaknesses."

Nor strong points to the Fox/Marth extreme. Isn't that a weakness?
Flawed logic all over.. imagine a character that dies in one hit, yet has an attack that blows up the whole stage instantly, OHKOing everyone. This character has an obvious weakness, but would still be the best character in the game.

 

[Deleted member]

I checked the tier-tournament relationship before I posted, you should do the same. I'm not going to address that since there's no point to argue if you haven't looked at it recently.

sheik was uber forever because she owned tournaments from recipherus to azen to DSF and after that no sheik player stood out, so other characters passed her up.

as for sheik's potential jesus man go watch some kdj vids, his **** is sickly.

as for marth watch m2k, his grabs kill at 0 about 75% of the time.

I really want to argue your points, but you really haven't seen what the new players can do w/ their characters or else you simply wouldn't say that, cause like, ****, lol. and falco's shine being half as useful as fox's? I mean, holy ****. I don't even know how to refute that in 1 argument.

here, I'll leave you some examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHkmgYJnRkM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YPztTWKFkI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Q2KGh85uo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPIN0UQmFd0

 

[JesiahTEG]

I think Mow is basically saying that Rune doesn't know anything about the characters.

Also, telling Mow he doesn't know what he's talking about is both condescending and ironic...Mow is one of the most knowledgeable people on smashboards. I'm not saying your wrong Rune, I'm just saying...This duuude knows his s***

Also to Rune, Fox having lagless aerials and sheik doesn't is double wrong, since EVERY character has 5 frames of landing lag even if you don't attack, and then it's a minimum of 7 like fox's nair or samus's nair, wheras after that fox actually has More lag on his aerials. like landing in upair or bair

U seem a lil confused rune.

 

[Aesir]

On a side note. Aesir, your sig scares the hell out of me...

Frostbyte, I'd have to agree with aesir wholeheartedly, due to the fact falcon gives me more trouble than spacies usually, even with the space animal user has greater skill...just hard to deal with a falcon I suppose. I'd actually rather fight a skilled shiek than a skilled falcon.

Nice post rune

its because he has combos that work against marth really well and he has a solid finisher.

While sheik has this too her finisher isn't as solid as Falcons.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Marth doesn't lose to Falcon.

Falco loses to Marth.

Fox and Marth are close to even, with Marth winning on some stages.

Shiek beats Marth and barely loses to Fox and Falco.

And can everyone just shut up about "if a perfect Fox played a perfect" blah blah blah, shut up.

Fox and Marth are both the best.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

Falco and Marth are even, just watch DaShizWiz. Shiz really had that match-up down before retiring. The match-up is just more forgiving for the Marth player.

 

[JesiahTEG]

btw

Nair:
Comes out: frame 4
fastest out of shield: frame 8
Shield damage: 26
Shield stun: 14 frames
L-canceled Lag: 7 Frames

Dair (6 hits):
Comes out: frame 5
Fastest out of shield: frame 9
Shield Damage: 22
Shield Stun: ~37 frames (~6/7 frames/ hit) has a -5 frame disadvantage after l-cancelling.
L-canceled Lag: 9 frames

Bair:
Comes out: frame 4
Fastest out of shield: frame 8
Shield Damage: 42
Shield Stun: 16 frames
L-canceled Lag: 10 frames

Uair:
Comes out: frame 8
Fastest out of shield: frame 12
Shield Damage: 42
Shield Stun: 15 frames (after 2nd hit)
L-canceled Lag: 9 frames

Fair:
Don't shffl fairs into shields.
L-canceled Lag: 9 frames

for Fox

just for reference

 

[chillindude829]

top tier should be in this order

sheik
marth
fox

 

[FrostByte]

On a side note. Aesir, your sig scares the hell out of me...

Frostbyte, I'd have to agree with aesir wholeheartedly, due to the fact falcon gives me more trouble than spacies usually, even with the space animal user has greater skill...just hard to deal with a falcon I suppose. I'd actually rather fight a skilled shiek than a skilled falcon.

Nice post rune

Falcon has become one of my best matchups over time. It seems his options are very limited in all areas; approach, escaping combos, escaping edgeguards, escaping techchases. He's the only fastfaller who is forced to approach Marth and only has 2 or 3 effective ways to approach, where 2 of them will be outprioritised. Baiting attacks covers the third one.

As for fighting sheik, I would take falcon any day. Falcon can combo a stock off Marth, Marth can take it back with not much effort. Once he's off the stage, he shouldn't be coming back without getting killed or thrown back off. Sheik on the other hand can **** Marth's stock and not get gimp edgeguarded at all.

LKs opinion > yours >_>

Oh, sorry Forget what I said. I must be wrong.

 

[Aesir]

Marth doesn't lose to Falcon.

Falco loses to Marth.

Fox and Marth are close to even, with Marth winning on some stages.

Shiek beats Marth and barely loses to Fox and Falco.

And can everyone just shut up about "if a perfect Fox played a perfect" blah blah blah, shut up.

Fox and Marth are both the best.

1. you're an idiot, marth loses to falcon the only thing marth has on CF is range and edge guard and he needs more then that.


2. Marth vs Fox is the most even match up in the game. ( I guess I have to bold it now.)

3. kay..

4. Why? because a perfect fox ***** marth? what?

 

[StripesOrBars]

Falco and Marth are even, just watch DaShizWiz. Shiz really had that match-up down before retiring. The match-up is just more forgiving for the Marth player.

Shizwiz lives in my state.

I play/watch him in person like 3 times a month.

Marth beats Falco, Shiz will say the same.

 

[StripesOrBars]

1. you're an idiot, marth loses to falcon the only thing marth has on CF is range and edge guard and he needs more then that.


2. Marth vs Fox is the most even match up in the game. ( I guess I have to bold it now.)

3. kay..

4. Why? because a perfect fox ***** marth? what?

1. No, you just lose to every Falcon you play because you're garbage. It's ok, when everyone moves on to Brawl and you're still playing this game, you'll eventually be able to beat Falcons(not).

2. I never said it wasn't the most even match up in the game. Marth barley wins on some stages and Fox and Marth are even on others.

3.Gay..

4.What does perfect anything have to do with anything? Nothing will ever be perfect mr Scrub.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Yeah, I think Marth has the advantage on Falcon.

 

[StripesOrBars]

He does, the only people who think otherwise are scrubs.

 

[Aesir]

1. No, you just lose to every Falcon you play because you're garbage. It's ok, when everyone moves on to Brawl and you're still playing this game, you'll eventually be able to beat Falcons(not).

LOL I love the way you argue its like this..

Make statement based off my poor logic. if they disagree insult them with no prior knowledge of the player.

3.Gay..

Homophobia

4.What does perfect anything have to do with anything? Nothing will ever be perfect mr Scrub.

Lol again with the insults is that all you know how to do?

Its good to know what certain characters can do under perfect conditions, if someones going to bring up perfect conditions they should atleast do it right and know what perfect conditions are.

But I agree its kind of useless lol

 

[JesiahTEG]

Come on you 2, your probably both good players who know a lot about the game, no need to argue.

 

[Binx]

i think marth vs fox is in marth's favor at FD and MAYBE yoshi's, but that's it. fox gimps marth way too easily with the recent edgeguarding trick discovered; shine out of shield after marth's up-b's.. instant kill as far as I know. =\

and imo, falco straight-up beats marth terribly if he plays smart. marth's best stages would again be FD and yoshi's but pillaring ***** marth hard.

Marth can counter lasers, and if he powershields one predicted laser at close enough range its a free grab which is a kill.

lol, gamer, funny thread.
i'll leave this open for a couple days as you requested.

btw, marth does ****. it's really amazing what a marth with great spacing can do. it's almost unfair.

i've been known to main falco but ****, everytime i play with marth and just **** with good spacing and combos the more i like him. (lol gamer, i think my marth is gayer and probably better than my falco now, ive been using him a lot more than falco these days)

i think fox vs marth is dead even.

i think falco vs marth is in marth's favor slightly

despite what most people think, i think marth vs sheik is even, if not, sheik with a slight advantage. i say this because of spacing again; it can be really tough for a sheik to get in if the marth stays away with proper spacing. marth's range is too good.

marth is too good.

id almost agree with what you are saying, gamer. almost.

Marth is amazing, hands down the second/best character in the game.

You forgot samus in ur top tiers; samus CAN own marth, but it goes both ways.

That is the dumbest thing I have heard in a long time, made me laugh. Seriously though Marth can outspace has a huge grab to counter CCing, has a 2 hit aerial to stop her spot dodge, and also can swipe her projectiles super easily.

Anyone CAN own anyone if the players skill levels are far enough apart, but even semi close its so far in Marth's favor it makes me want to punch a baby.

Honestly, there is no BEST player or character for that matter. there are TOP players and players that win a lot, but it depends on how u look at it.

There are characters with more advantages, fox has less bad match ups, period. If you mess up and get grabbed in any of them you get punished a lot because of his fall speed and weight, but if you play really well you have the advantage unless you are on FD with Marth.

No 2 players can be exactly equal in skill, the top 3 or 4 right now are all amazingly close though.

 

[Rune]

I checked the tier-tournament relationship before I posted, you should do the same. I'm not going to address that since there's no point to argue if you haven't looked at it recently.

Source?

sheik was uber forever because she owned tournaments from recipherus to azen to DSF and after that no sheik player stood out, so other characters passed her up.

as for sheik's potential jesus man go watch some kdj vids, his **** is sickly.

Those KDJ vids look almost exactly the same as Sheik vids always have, 'cept ofcourse a little tighter. Which is exactly my point, Sheik's game is too basic, there's nothing to abuse. She has nothing that could theoretically be abused to the extent of Marth's range/disjoints or Fox's reflector.
The fact that Azen or KDJ consistently put up good matches with her has nothing to do with her being uber, especially Azen is a jack of all trades.. a top player. As for people like DSF, he was never uber.. I almost beat him, and I was never a genuine top player.

as for marth watch m2k, his grabs kill at 0 about 75% of the time.

A theoretical perfect opponent would not be taken from 0 to death by a Marth combo, these things are escapable, death after being reflectorspiked is not.

I really want to argue your points, but you really haven't seen what the new players can do w/ their characters or else you simply wouldn't say that, cause like, ****, lol. and falco's shine being half as useful as fox's? I mean, holy ****. I don't even know how to refute that in 1 argument.

Mate, I'm not saying Falco's reflector is bad, we're talking hypothetical perfection here. A perfectly used Falco will hurt like mad, a perfectly used Fox will potentially chain reflector spam you to death in a few seconds.

I think Mow is basically saying that Rune doesn't know anything about the characters.

Also, telling Mow he doesn't know what he's talking about is both condescending and ironic...Mow is one of the most knowledgeable people on smashboards. I'm not saying your wrong Rune, I'm just saying...This duuude knows his s***

Not saying I'm wrong means you're saying I'm right.
You're reading lines that aren't there, saying someone's comment makes no sense does not equal saying he doesn't know what he's talking about overall. The fact that Mow knows his stuff doesn't mean he's always right, I've 'known' Mow for a very long time, I know he's knowledgeable and I respect him for that, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna agree with anything he says outright, that would be silly.
Knowledge is refined through discussion, not discussing something because you believe someone is automatically right because he has a good reputation causes degeneration for both parties.

Also to Rune, Fox having lagless aerials and sheik doesn't is double wrong, since EVERY character has 5 frames of landing lag even if you don't attack, and then it's a minimum of 7 like fox's nair or samus's nair, wheras after that fox actually has More lag on his aerials. like landing in upair or bair

U seem a lil confused rune.

I didn't say Fox' aerials are lagless, I meant his reflector makes up for the lag, unlike Sheik, he can use his reflector to attack a split second after the lag time is over and use the stun caused by it to make his next move, while Sheik has to deal with the initial lag of her next attack.
I'm not confused, just confusing, sorry about that.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Haha, ok I got a lil confused with what you were talking about. My bad then.

 

[Rune]

What does perfect anything have to do with anything? Nothing will ever be perfect mr Scrub.

Because we were talking about potential, since full potential would the only fair way to measure characters against each other.

Come on you 2, your probably both good players who know a lot about the game, no need to argue.

There is always need to argue. Arguing sharpens the mind, especially when you argue with authorities without doing your homework on the subject. ;P

 

[Deleted member]

Source?

as you wish~

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=41949
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=34371
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=29953
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=29968