Marth Frame Trap Compendium ( Option Selects are being added as well!)

[B.A.M.]

Marth Frame Trap Compendium

I was thinking the other day that something that would help this community is if we compiled characters frame traps and the like in a single thread. I would definitely love to make a universal database for brawl frame traps (at least the common or strongest ones).

So I was wondering if we can all pitch in right now and start building a list of Marth's Frame Traps.

I will update the thread regularly continually adding in frame traps known/found.

So lets start off shall we?

Frame traps will be compiled under the primary action. Character dependent ones will be placed in an separate area. I will just write down the ones given to me, then when the project is somewhat complete a video will be made for these traps as well as the OP will be properly organized.

FRAME TRAPS
Frame Trap definition:

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]A set of two actions that due to the first action's cooldown, shield stun, range or a combination of these sorts punishes majority of defensive options present.[/COLLAPSE]



ff Uair:

ff Uair frame traps are some of the best frame traps in the game due to the mad disjoint of Marth Uair; not much can challenge it. Its basic traps also tend to reset the juggle situation.

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]Utilt: not only does it absolutely cover ADs, it also covers a wide area; making it harder for an opponent to try to DI away from the trap. It also places your opponent back in the air.


Usmash: Good damage, and covers more area that it seems. It also places your opponent back in the air.


dtilt: now this one is a little harder to time, due to dealing with fastfall speeds and the lack of area covered. However, it does net some good damage due to the dtilt strings possible when an opponent is caught before landing with a dtilt ( dtilt> buffer dash DB, dtilt> grab, dtilt> fsmash) [/COLLAPSE]

Fair:

Fair is an awesome primary for a frame trap; its range and safety make it easier to catch someone.

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]Fair: the classic frame trap that aids marth in many ways due to its range.

Nair: If you are coming at them from the side, its an excellent frame trap to use. its especially useful when coupled with a SH Fair because first hit nair strings into a myriad of things in which can rack up a good amount of damage.[/COLLAPSE]

Bair:

Bair has tons of range ( of course it does we're Marth) and due to its ability to change our facing direction, it allows to do some interesting things.

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]Fair: the basic juggle trap and very effective.

DS: this one is an odd ball of sorts but at times gains strength to the fact that people attempt to DI away from Marth due to his juggle traps. So if they are trying to DI away as you bair towards them in the air, Marth horizontal speed can catch up to quite a bit of characters, then DS abuse their DI. Can be used for a quick kill or just to simply get someone offstage.[/COLLAPSE]

Frame traps on shield​

Marth has some fantastic frame traps on shield due to how low the cool down is for his autocancel aerials as well as their range. Some some of his ground moves have this property as well, the major one being the dtilt trap that will be done in-depth.

ff tipper uair>dtilt

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]"uair's shield push is surprisingly huge so dtilt catches a lot of attempted punishes."

- C.J[/COLLAPSE]

Well spaced aerials> jab:

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]Because of the combination of shield stun, range and amazing autocancel abilities of aerials, marth is able to often jab without any fear of being punished due to its quick start and range for a jab. These are awesome in terms of allowing you to somewhat safely attack a shield vs most characters. Which allows a more solid approach and ultimately gives marth the ability to pressure.[/COLLAPSE]


untippered fair>DS

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]"Beats out grabs and other possible punishes OoS (such as someone trying to jab you)"

- C.J

Definitely can punished if one continues just to shield, but that is the whole point. The fact that you can DS anything thrown at you in that situation besides simple block makes people reluctant to use punishment options OoS, which can earn you some simple shield pressure off just the idea of this trap.
[/COLLAPSE]

Dtilt Trap:

Dtilt's range,shield stun,quickness give Marth the ability to basically punish anybody. C.J outlines it in this method."

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]- If they Spotdodge, React and DB
- If they roll behind you (they use an f-roll), the fastest roll is MK's at 23 frames. -7 for dtilt disadvantage. 16 frames to punish. Depending on the spacing of the roll, dsmash/fsmash if they roll through you. If tippered, -14 for dtilt leaving 9 frames. Dsmash/DB to punish
- If they roll away from you (back roll), the fastest is Lucario at 27 frames. -7 for dtilt disadvantage, 20 frames to punish. Dash DB to punish
- If they jump (jump data is averaged at about 6 frames), that leaves you with a 1 frame disadvantage. Jab beats/ties aerials that come out frame 5 (disjoint/range dependent) and beats aerials frames 6 or faster. Jab will end before an air dodge if the opponent chooses that, then you punish the AD for free.


- compliments of C.J
[/COLLAPSE]

Nair Trap

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]Nair's frame data

Nair:
Hit: 6, 15, 17 (behind), 19
End: 48
First Hit Shield Stun: 6
~Shield Hit Lag: 3
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -4
First Hit Tipper Shield Stun: 9
~Shield Hit Lag: 8
ADVANTAGE: (SHFF): -6
First Hit Regular Stun: 25
~Hit Lag: 4
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): +14
First Hit Regular Tipper Stun: 34
~Hit Lag: 8
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): +19
Strong Hit Shield Stun: 10
~Shield Hit Lag: 4
ADVANTAGE: -27
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -4
Strong Hit Tipper Shield Stun: 12
~Shield Hit Lag: 12
ADVANTAGE: -33
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -8
SHFF Nair Lag: 8
First hit nair lag: 8
SH Nair Fast Falled Lag: 3

Nair is amazing on shield, especially when you consider the range at which it would be spaced. seeing as VERY few characters have something OoS that can punish you at its range. combined with the fact you have quick long range tilts, places the majority of the cast in a terrible position. This move also at the appropriate range will punish forward rolls due to the hit box from behind. It is truly a staple of marth and a trap that can net greater punishes than a simple jab.

More testing needs to be done on the specifics of this move. [/COLLAPSE]

Throw Traps​

Marth throws do horrendous damage. However not much marth mains are complaining. Why? Cuz they are amazing when it comes to frame traps. Lets start listing all we've got on these things. Perhaps we can find better ways to rack up damage.

**** If anyone can find the advantage given by our throws that would be VERY much appreciated. Ph1lny3?

Dthrow trap

[COLLAPSE="Dthrow Trap Details"]Dthrow in itself: Even after CG%, dthrow automatically puts in a situation where u have to either AD immediately or get hit. due to this, it offers as solid of a 50/50 as u can get in brawl ( fthrow pretty much does this as well). So I would love to start an open discussion regarding how to maximize our damage output depending on the option chosen.

Im going to start off with one Mike has used on me before with I thought was kinda cool.

Dthrow>buffered turnaround jab: after CG%, he would every now and then do this. I think the jab in only escapeable with DI ( someone clarify for me). Then of course if you get the jab you can dtilt which allows u to either trap the opponent again due to the knockback of hitting an aerial opponent with dtilt ( at some % u can literally walk up and dtilt trap) or if theyre off stage the dtilt sets up an edgeguarding/gimping opportunity.
[/COLLAPSE]

Ledge Traps:


Emblem Lord's post in regards to Ledge Traps:

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]Ledge traps are also very common and very easy to do. When an opponent is on the ledge they have several options. They have roll get up, ledge hop into an aerial, ledge attack, normal get up and ledge jump. If you space yourself so that their get up attack would miss you if they tried, you have effectively covered most of their options. If they roll get up you can just throw them back out or get a free attack[/COLLAPSE]

While fair is a reliable tool for Ledge traps there is one better; Nair. Nairs multiple hitboxes cover virtually every option available at the ledge. SH FF Nair> react to option present. Ledge traps are very strong for Marth , so lets start filling this one up as well.

***Note: at proper spacing nair takes out ledge hops, roll, and get up attack. Even regular getup can be thrwarted by dtilting on reaction either pushing them off the edge or them rolling which is a free punish either way.

Character Specific:

Ground Release> buffered dtilt on Lucario

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]Due to Lucario's quickest ground option being 6 frames, Marth can buffer a dtilt on their shield without fearing any punishment. Once they are stuck in the dtilt trap they are forced to use a defensive option to get away; all of them being punishable by Marth.[/COLLAPSE]

Option Selects​

[COLLAPSE="Definition"]An Option Select is a joystick or button input which functions as multiple possible actions simultaneously, letting the game engine decide the best counter to a situation. Specific instances allow only certain moves to come out, so you can worry less about your opponents options, and focus more on your own offense.[/COLLAPSE]

I am going to make a video later detailing what option selects are good for Marth and why. For now I will leave this video of SF detailing OS and my blog on AIB regarding them.

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=125939

Shield Option Selects​

Grab^Roll OS:

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]There are a multitude of grab^Roll OS. the ones we will discuss are:
ISSDI forward x 1 grab^Froll OS
ISSDI x 1 backwards grab^Broll OS
ISSDI forward x 2 grab^Froll OS

Inputs:
- cstick forward for ISSDI forward x 1 grab or Froll
- cstick backward for ISSDI x 1 backwards grab or Broll
- forward on the analog stick + cstick up (ISSDI forward x 2 grab or Froll)

Why they could be useful:

- Marth has an amazing grab range and game in general as well as good tilts to pressure an opponents you have rolled behind and to keep out those chasing your Broll (if they expected it)
- most people arent just going to stand there while in CQC meaning you are now behind your opponent and can punish a whiff attempt or spotdodge. Its also nice that Marth has AMAZING tilts + DS OoS, allowing him to be at a safe distance frame wise to use his quick tilts.

I would definitely love some of our Marth mains to do some in-depth testing on these and see what they find.[/COLLAPSE]

Aerial OoS^Roll OS:

[COLLAPSE="Hide"]I think these ones have some awesome potential for Marth as well. We have Aerial OoS^Broll OS, Aerial OoS^Froll OS, DS OoS^Froll OS, Usmash OoS^Froll OS and Usmash OoS^Broll OS.

Input:

-Aerial OoS^Broll OS: rotate the analog stick from back to up (this is if you have tap jump on, otherwise you have to input the back on the analog stick then a jump command afterwardos) then put in the aerial of your choosing. This must be done quickly.

- Aerial OoS^Froll: rotate the analog stick from forward to up (this is if you have tap jump on, otherwise you have to just input the forward and jump command right after) then put in the aerial of your choosing. This must be done quickly.

- DS OoS^Froll: rotate analog stick from forward to up + B (this is if you have tap jump on, otherwise you have to input the forward on the analog stick then a jump command afterwards + up +B)

- Usmash OoS^Froll: rotate the analog stick from forward to up +A (this is if you have tap jump on, otherwise you have to input the forward on the analog stick then a jump command afterwards + up +A)

- Usmash OoS^Broll: rotate the analog stick from back to up +A (this is if you have tap jump on, otherwise you have to input the back on the analog stick then a jump command afterwards + up +A)
Why they could be useful:

Marth has amazing quick aerials that cover a ton of options the aerial OS allow the ability to approach imo more.

the Usmash OoS^ Broll or Froll as well as the DS OoS^Froll OS allow for some of his stronger punishes to be even safer. The DS one especially safe way to get through walls without being baited foolishly. I also see these option selects being VERY strong along with grab OS in situations where you are in some sort of frame disadvantage and you arent sure what defensive option to use. Wiff an Fsmash and you dont know if you should just block and punish their punish or if they are going for a grab (basically coin flip scenarios) ? Use these to better your chances.

Please Check these out Marths in your friendlies and post back here detailing how they worked out for u etc.[/COLLAPSE]

Offensive Option Selects:​

These Option Selects use the hitstun and the buffer window to select the best option in a hit or wiff scenario so that you dont miss an opportunity to buffer something to continue a string or buffer another action to defend your wiff.

Will post some later. Do any of you have any you use? Let me know!!!

Miscellaneous:

Some Ground Grab Release stuff info courtesy of C.J


Out of grab releases:
[COLLAPSE="Info"]Lucario is a character I actually don't like to throw that much unless I know a very specific habit of theirs that I can punish. His quickest option is grab/jab at frame 6 each (Okay, well, technically, utilt if frame 5, but that hits behind him so idc) However you have a 1 frame advantage when you ground release someone putting his quickest, offensive, action at frame 7. As a result, you can always dtilt and hit him unless he chooses a defensive option. Shield, rolls, or spotdodge. With us being able to act on frame 22 out of out dtilt (assuming he chooses a defensive option other than shield), we can punish anything he chooses to do. This is the basic idea of this section. Dtilt is an amazing poke and allows up enough safety on shield, and ends quickly enough on whiff, that we can punish whatever action they take in theory. Usually on reaction unless it's a godtier defensive action (falco's spotdodge for example). Additionally, as our grab is 6 frames, we can input a grab with no fear of him being able to outspeed us.

Also I guess if they mash out quicker than you expected this would be helpful if you for some reason memorized it.

Oh god this took way too long Hide
*Disclaimer, most of these characters you should just throw most of the time. However, if you want to try a frame trap on them out of a grab release, by all means try away.*
Diddy: Bananas, jab, dtilt... ugh. Just throw him unless you think you can get GR-> fair.
Snake: Jab (3). Jab clashes. Ftilt (4). Jab wins. Grenades make me not want to grab release him. Uthrow forever!
Falco: Not even going to try. He'll jab. He'll always jab. Just... no.
Marth: I don't care, just throw him.
Wario: You should be GRing him anyway, but, if there's a platform above you then oh well. Dtilt and stage 2 waft (58 seconds to 1:50) both hit on frame 5.
IC: Jab (4). Jab wins. If both are there pummel once then throw. If it's just Popo, then ground releasing is viable.
Olimar: Jab (4). Jab wins. Whistle (2super armor). Grab wins.
Pikachu: Jab (2). Spot Dodge, Shield. Dash attack (5) ftilt (5). Jab wins.
DDD: UpB (1-4invincible before super armor kicks in). Nothing else faster than frame 6. I'd feel so much better about grab releasing him if he has a not-z-axis-heavy spotdodge. Although his rolls are very meh frame wise so it's not that bad.
ZSS: Jab (1). Shield and spotdodge win. Utilt (3). Jab clashes. Dtilt (4) Jab wins. FlipKick (1-12invincible). Frame one jab and frame 3 move that sets up juggles? Don't bother, just throw.
G&W: Jab (4). Jab wins. UpB (5-13invincible). Jab wins. Grab release -> fair is still the best though.
Tink: Nothing faster than frame 6.
Fox: Jab (2). Shield, spot dodge. Dash attack (4). Jab wins. Shine (3. Invincible what appears to be 1-4). See Falco.
Wolf: Jab (3). Out jab will clash. Dtilt (5). Our jab wins. Shine (1-9invincible)
Peach: Jab (2). Spot dodge, shield. Nothing else faster than frame 6. However, jab will be seen a LOT in this situation (and on the reverse you being grab released). Just throw her.
DK: You have a -9 frame advantage when you release him. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS thow this monkey.
Kirby: Jab (3). Jab clashes. Dtilt (4) ftilt (5). Jab wins. Don't risk the trip from dtilt. Just throw him.
ROB: Jab (3) Dtilt (3 really now?). Our Jab clashes. Utilt (4) Dsmash (4 wtf, stupid move). Jab wins. Sidespecial (2 I think. Rob is a dumb character). UpB (1-4invincible). I hate this character. Just throw him.
Pit: Why is his moveset so fast? o_O Jab (5) and dsmash (5). Jab beats them. Utilt (2). Shield, Spotdodge beat it. WoI (1-5invincible). Mirror Shield (4-5Super armor on the ground. 6-17 acts as a normal shield),
Sonic: Jab (3). Can use jab to clash with it. Spring (1-10invincible). Jab is fast enough to beat it. No other options faster than frame 6. Dtilt/grab works just like Lucario outside of those two moves. UpB is a common use though. Jab may be your best option here.
Ike: Jab (3). Jab clashes.
Luigi: Jab (2). Shield, spotdodge. Dtilt (5), Ftilt (5), dsmash (5). Jab wins.
Sheik: Her frame data rivals/is faster than MK's... Just throw.
Ness: You have a +11 frame advantage on this child. There's next to no reason to ever throw this character. Ever. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS grab release.
Yoshi: Jab (3). Jab clashes. Yoshi is interesting. He won't shield or roll in this situation so he'll jab or spotdodge. If he jabs, jab will clash. However, it's a 27 frame jab vs Yoshi's 22 frame spotdodge. 50-50 shot. Just throw.
Charizard: Jab (4). Jab wins. Fly (3-? Super Armor). Jab will hit him but you'll get sucked in. Probably. idk. Just throw. Not worth the risk.
Squirtle: His ground moveset is really fast. Plus you have GR-> ****. Just air release.
Ivysaur: Dash Attack (4) Dtilt (4). Jab wins. Bullet Seed. (4. Invincible 1-3).
Lucas: You have a +11 frame advantage on this child. There's next to no reason to ever throw this character. Ever. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS grab release.
Mario: See Luigi. Add in: Super Jump Punch (3. 1-5invincible).
Bowser: UpB (1-5invincible). Jab clashes. Hitbox isn't out till frame 6 so dtilt will clash with Bowser's upB. Because Marth's throws are more laggy the heavier the character, they're super laggy on Bowser. I grab release a lot vs Bowser.
Samus: Jab (3). Jab clashes.
Falcon: Jab (3). Jab clashes.
Link: Nothing faster than frame 6. See Lucario.
Puff: Jab (5) Dash attack (5). Jab wins. I guess technically Rest hits frame 2 but w/e. She'll probably jump anyway. Jab is probably your best option.
Zelda: Dsmash (4). Jab wins. Dtilt (5). Jab wins. NeutralB (5-11invincible). Jab wins.
Ganon: Nothing faster than frame 6.

Yeah, this is mostly useless, but, oh well.[/COLLAPSE]

DATA​

Courtesy of C.J

Relevant frame data for all frame traps (as Marth):

[COLLAPSE="Our Primary Attacks for the first part of a frame trap"]
Nair ends: 49 Autocancels starting: 24 And is -25/-28 on shield -4/-8 When landing
Fair ends: 33 Autocancels starting: 26 And is -25/-28 on shield -4/-8 When landing
Uair ends: 45 Autocancels starting: 26 And is -4/-7 on shield
Bair ends: 39 Autocancels starting: 31 And is -15/-19 on shield
Dtilt ends: 21 And is -7 or -11 on shield
Jab ends: 27 And is -20 or -23 on shield

By "end" I actually mean "first actionable frame" so I'm using the IASA data[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="Primary for punishing when you frame trap"]Dancing Blade hits on frame 4
Dsmash hits on frame 6
Fsmash hits on frame 10
Utilt hits on frame 6 (for the first kind) and 10 (for the second kind)[/COLLAPSE]


[COLLAPSE="Spot Dodges"]2-20 / 22 Link
2-20 / 22 Pikachu
2-20 / 22 Falco
2-20 / 22 Yoshi
2-20 / 22 Toon Link
2-20 / 24 Marth

2-20 / 25 Mario
2-20 / 25 Samus
2-20 / 25 Zero Suit Samus
2-20 / 25 Kirby
2-20 / 25 Fox
2-20 / 25 Game & Watch
2-20 / 25 Luigi
2-20 / 25 Diddy
2-20 / 25 Zelda
2-20 / 25 Sheik
2-20 / 25 Pit
2-20 / 25 Metaknight
2-20 / 25 Squirtle
2-20 / 25 Ivysaur
2-20 / 25 Charizard
2-20 / 25 Ike
2-20 / 25 Snake
2-20 / 25 Peach
2-20 / 25 Ganondorf
2-20 / 25 Ice Climbers
2-20 / 25 Wolf
2-20 / 25 Lucario
2-20 / 25 Ness
2-20 / 25 Sonic
2-20 / 25 Wario
2-20 / 25 R.O.B
2-20 / 25 Captain Falcon
2-20 / 25 Lucas

3-20 / 25 Olimar
3-16 / 25 Jigglypuff
2-20 / 27 King Dedede
2-23 / 30 Donkey Kong
3-24 / 32 Bowser[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="Air Dodges"]3-29 / 39 Metaknight
4-29 / 39 Zero Suit Samus
4-29 / 39 Diddy
4-29 / 39 Pit
4-29 / 39 Squirtle
4-29 / 39 Ivysaur
4-29 / 39 Charizard
4-29 / 39 Ike
4-29 / 39 Snake
4-29 / 39 King Dedede
4-29 / 39 Lucario
4-29 / 39 Wario
4-29 / 39 R.O.B
4-29 / 39 Olimar

4-29 / 48 Ice Climbers
4-29 / 48 Ness
4-29 / 48 Sonic
4-29 / 48 Lucas

4-30 / 49 Bowser
4-29 / 49 Mario
4-29 / 49 Donkey Kong
4-29 / 49 Link
4-29 / 49 Samus
4-29 / 49 Kirby
4-29 / 49 Fox
4-29 / 49 Pikachu
4-29 / 49 G&W
4-29 / 49 Luigi
4-29 / 49 Zelda
4-29 / 49 Sheik
4-29 / 49 Falco
4-29 / 49 Yoshi
4-29 / 49 Ganondorf
4-29 / 49 Wolf
4-29 / 49 Toon Link
4-29 / 49 Captain Falcon
4-29 / 49 Jigglypuff

5-30 / 49 Marth
4-19 / 49 Peach[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="Forward Rolls"]5-12 / 23 Metaknight
4-19 / 27 Lucario
4-17 / 27 Pit
4-15 / 27 Zero Suit Samus
4-19 / 29 Diddy
4-19 / 29 Squirtle

4-20 / 31 Kirby
4-19 / 31 Donkey Kong
4-19 / 31 Fox
4-19 / 31 Pikachu
4-19 / 31 Luigi
4-19 / 31 Zelda
4-19 / 31 Sheik
4-19 / 31 Falco
4-19 / 31 Peach
4-19 / 31 Ganondorf
4-19 / 31 Ice Climbers
4-19 / 31 Wolf
4-19 / 31 Ness
4-19 / 31 Sonic
4-19 / 31 Captain Falcon
4-19 / 31 Lucas

3-19 / 32 Jigglypuff
4-19 / 32 Mario
4-19 / 32 Ivysaur
4-19 / 32 King Dedede
4-19 / 32 Olimar

4-19 / 33 Ike
4-21 / 34 R.O.B
4-19 / 34 Yoshi
4-19 / 35 Charizard
4-19 / 35 Marth
4-19 / 35 G&W
4-17 / 35 Snake

4-21 / 37 Wario
4-19 / 37 Link
4-19 / 37 Toon Link
5-20 / 39 Bowser
4-23 / 44 Samus[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="Back Rolls"]4-19 / 27 Lucario
4-19 / 29 Diddy
4-19 / 29 Squirtle

4-20 / 31 Kirby
4-19 / 31 Donkey Kong
4-19 / 31 Fox
4-19 / 31 Pikachu
4-19 / 31 Luigi
4-19 / 31 Zelda
4-19 / 31 Sheik
4-19 / 31 Falco
4-19 / 31 Lucas
4-19 / 31 Wolf
4-19 / 31 Ness
4-19 / 31 Sonic
4-19 / 31 Ganondorf
4-19 / 31 Ice Climbers
4-19 / 31 Captain Falcon
5-20 / 31 Peach

4-19 / 32 Jigglypuff
4-19 / 32 Mario
4-19 / 32 King Dedede
4-19 / 32 Ivysaur
4-19 / 32 Olimar
4-17 / 32 Pit

4-19 / 33 Snake
4-12 / 33 Metaknight
4-21 / 34 R.O.B
4-23 / 35 Marth
4-19 / 35 G&W
4-19 / 36 Charizard

4-21 / 37 Wario
4-19 / 37 Ike
4-19 / 37 Link
4-19 / 37 Zero Suit Samus
4-19 / 37 Yoshi
4-19 / 37 Toon Link
5-20 / 39 Bowser
4-23 / 44 Samus[/COLLAPSE]

Feel free to go through and see which frame traps are most effective on which characters.

[COLLAPSE="Jump Data"]Falcon- 6
DDD- 5
Diddy- 5
DK - 7
Falco - 5
Fox - 5
G&W - 6
Ganon - 6
Ike - 8
Kirby - 5
Bowser - 9
Link - 8
Lucario - 6
Lucas - 6
Luigi - 6
Mario - 6
Marth - 6
Metaknight - 5
Ness - 6
Peach - 6
Pikachu - 5
Olimar- 6
Pit - 6
ivysaur- 6
Charizard - 8
Squirtle - 5
IC - 5
Jiggly - 6
Rob - 6
Samus - 5
Sheik - 5
Snake - 10
Sonic - 8
ZSS - 5
Toonlink - 8
Wario - 7
Wolf - 7
Yoshi - 7
Zelda - 7
[/COLLAPSE]
__________________

 

[Lord Chair]

General Marth frametrap guide:

Nair.

 

[PZ]

You forgot side b and probably fthrow/uthrow for some chars...

 

[holyv]

fthrow>dair is ftrap for some...
metaknight grab release
wario grab release (tipper omfg)
footstool>Spike???
don`t mock him, there are plenty unescapable ****.

 

[Lord Chair]

fthrow>dair is ftrap for some...
metaknight grab release
wario grab release (tipper omfg)
footstool>Spike???
don`t mock him, there are plenty unescapable ****.

obv guaranteed hits that are in zero ways escapable qualify as frame traps

 

[B.A.M.]

General Marth frametrap guide:

Nair.

Lol I concur dear sir, theres tons of frame traps (especially on the ledge) with nair. sh nair DI to where the character ends up landing, rolling or getting up buffer grab is one i really like. However Lord Chair Im not going for a general frame trap guide. I want to compile the most prominent frame traps we have. As well as the lesser used ones that can provide greater punishment then some of the ones we are using.

So can we get some Marth mains in here to get this started? hmm I should go ask Mike as well.


EDIT: Lord Chair Im going to ask you to please refrain from this banter. I dont want this thread derailed from the start. Out of all the boards I believe the Marth boards has been the most productive in recent times. I am really happy to see the proper analysis done as well as info being far easier to find juxtaposed to other boards. So lets keep the trend going kay?

 

[C.J.]

Well, first you should define frame trap >_>

If you're using standard SF terminology a frame trap is when the (dis)advantage you have on block plus the start up of their next move is less than the time it takes for their opponent to use a move. As a result, if they do anything except for continuing to block they get hit by your move. However, thanks to rolling and spot dodging in smash, actual frame traps aren't an actual thing; except for trapping ADs ala MK's uair/Falco's uair.

So a standard for what specifically qualifies as a frame trap is the first thing that you need to have down before we can even begin to offer up our suggestions.

 

[Nike.]

Marth bair/uair/fair -> opponent airdodges -> fair the airdodge cooldown.

Also, what CJ just said.

 

[phi1ny3]

FF uair -> utilt

 

[holyv]

obv guaranteed hits that are in zero ways escapable qualify as frame traps

i was just trying to help someone that is getting mocked by every ****ing arrogant member of this ****ing board, i'm out of here.

 

[C.J.]

FF uair -> utilt

For what it's worth, this is especially useful vs Snake.

 

[B.A.M.]

made changes. Check the OP and keep the traps coming. Lets get some ground frame traps in!

 

[phi1ny3]

I also like FF uair -> utilt because it's pretty much combo-worthy at low percents (it was a legit combo startup in Melee too) even if the FF uair is tippered. Also a good way to ensure the kill if you reverse utilt to get that tipper hitbox, depending where they are when you land.

 

[C.J.]

at low%s, just usmash. Just as guaranteed, more damage.

Tipper hitbox has less kb than non-tipper utilt.

/off topic

Working on a giant post for this.

 

[infiniteV115]

Is ff 1st-hit nair --> Dolphin Slash a frame trap?

 

[C.J.]

On hit? No, it's guaranteed. On shield, 1st hit nair is -4/-6. So, un-tippered, yes. Tippered, technically no because it be grabbed. However that would need to be frame perfect so realistically yes.

EDIT:
Relevant frame data for all frame traps (as Marth):

[COLLAPSE="Our Primary Attacks for the first part of a frame trap"]
Nair ends: 49 Autocancels starting: 24 And is -25/-28 on shield -4/-8 When landing
Fair ends: 33 Autocancels starting: 26 And is -25/-28 on shield -4/-8 When landing
Uair ends: 45 Autocancels starting: 26 And is -4/-7 on shield
Bair ends: 39 Autocancels starting: 31 And is -15/-19 on shield
Dtilt ends: 21 And is -7 or -11 on shield
Jab ends: 27 And is -20 or -23 on shield

By "end" I actually mean "first actionable frame" so I'm using the IASA data[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="Primary for punishing when you frame trap"]Dancing Blade hits on frame 4
Dsmash hits on frame 6
Fsmash hits on frame 10
Utilt hits on frame 6 (for the first kind) and 10 (for the second kind)[/COLLAPSE]


[COLLAPSE="Spot Dodges"]2-20 / 22 Link
2-20 / 22 Pikachu
2-20 / 22 Falco
2-20 / 22 Yoshi
2-20 / 22 Toon Link
2-20 / 24 Marth

2-20 / 25 Mario
2-20 / 25 Samus
2-20 / 25 Zero Suit Samus
2-20 / 25 Kirby
2-20 / 25 Fox
2-20 / 25 Game & Watch
2-20 / 25 Luigi
2-20 / 25 Diddy
2-20 / 25 Zelda
2-20 / 25 Sheik
2-20 / 25 Pit
2-20 / 25 Metaknight
2-20 / 25 Squirtle
2-20 / 25 Ivysaur
2-20 / 25 Charizard
2-20 / 25 Ike
2-20 / 25 Snake
2-20 / 25 Peach
2-20 / 25 Ganondorf
2-20 / 25 Ice Climbers
2-20 / 25 Wolf
2-20 / 25 Lucario
2-20 / 25 Ness
2-20 / 25 Sonic
2-20 / 25 Wario
2-20 / 25 R.O.B
2-20 / 25 Captain Falcon
2-20 / 25 Lucas

3-20 / 25 Olimar
3-16 / 25 Jigglypuff
2-20 / 27 King Dedede
2-23 / 30 Donkey Kong
3-24 / 32 Bowser[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="Air Dodges"]3-29 / 39 Metaknight
4-29 / 39 Zero Suit Samus
4-29 / 39 Diddy
4-29 / 39 Pit
4-29 / 39 Squirtle
4-29 / 39 Ivysaur
4-29 / 39 Charizard
4-29 / 39 Ike
4-29 / 39 Snake
4-29 / 39 King Dedede
4-29 / 39 Lucario
4-29 / 39 Wario
4-29 / 39 R.O.B
4-29 / 39 Olimar

4-29 / 48 Ice Climbers
4-29 / 48 Ness
4-29 / 48 Sonic
4-29 / 48 Lucas

4-30 / 49 Bowser
4-29 / 49 Mario
4-29 / 49 Donkey Kong
4-29 / 49 Link
4-29 / 49 Samus
4-29 / 49 Kirby
4-29 / 49 Fox
4-29 / 49 Pikachu
4-29 / 49 G&W
4-29 / 49 Luigi
4-29 / 49 Zelda
4-29 / 49 Sheik
4-29 / 49 Falco
4-29 / 49 Yoshi
4-29 / 49 Ganondorf
4-29 / 49 Wolf
4-29 / 49 Toon Link
4-29 / 49 Captain Falcon
4-29 / 49 Jigglypuff

5-30 / 49 Marth
4-19 / 49 Peach[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="Forward Rolls"]5-12 / 23 Metaknight
4-19 / 27 Lucario
4-17 / 27 Pit
4-15 / 27 Zero Suit Samus
4-19 / 29 Diddy
4-19 / 29 Squirtle

4-20 / 31 Kirby
4-19 / 31 Donkey Kong
4-19 / 31 Fox
4-19 / 31 Pikachu
4-19 / 31 Luigi
4-19 / 31 Zelda
4-19 / 31 Sheik
4-19 / 31 Falco
4-19 / 31 Peach
4-19 / 31 Ganondorf
4-19 / 31 Ice Climbers
4-19 / 31 Wolf
4-19 / 31 Ness
4-19 / 31 Sonic
4-19 / 31 Captain Falcon
4-19 / 31 Lucas

3-19 / 32 Jigglypuff
4-19 / 32 Mario
4-19 / 32 Ivysaur
4-19 / 32 King Dedede
4-19 / 32 Olimar

4-19 / 33 Ike
4-21 / 34 R.O.B
4-19 / 34 Yoshi
4-19 / 35 Charizard
4-19 / 35 Marth
4-19 / 35 G&W
4-17 / 35 Snake

4-21 / 37 Wario
4-19 / 37 Link
4-19 / 37 Toon Link
5-20 / 39 Bowser
4-23 / 44 Samus[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="Back Rolls"]4-19 / 27 Lucario
4-19 / 29 Diddy
4-19 / 29 Squirtle

4-20 / 31 Kirby
4-19 / 31 Donkey Kong
4-19 / 31 Fox
4-19 / 31 Pikachu
4-19 / 31 Luigi
4-19 / 31 Zelda
4-19 / 31 Sheik
4-19 / 31 Falco
4-19 / 31 Lucas
4-19 / 31 Wolf
4-19 / 31 Ness
4-19 / 31 Sonic
4-19 / 31 Ganondorf
4-19 / 31 Ice Climbers
4-19 / 31 Captain Falcon
5-20 / 31 Peach

4-19 / 32 Jigglypuff
4-19 / 32 Mario
4-19 / 32 King Dedede
4-19 / 32 Ivysaur
4-19 / 32 Olimar
4-17 / 32 Pit

4-19 / 33 Snake
4-12 / 33 Metaknight
4-21 / 34 R.O.B
4-23 / 35 Marth
4-19 / 35 G&W
4-19 / 36 Charizard

4-21 / 37 Wario
4-19 / 37 Ike
4-19 / 37 Link
4-19 / 37 Zero Suit Samus
4-19 / 37 Yoshi
4-19 / 37 Toon Link
5-20 / 39 Bowser
4-23 / 44 Samus[/COLLAPSE]

Feel free to go through and see which frame traps are most effective on which characters.

[COLLAPSE="Jump Data"]Falcon- 6
DDD- 5
Diddy- 5
DK - 7
Falco - 5
Fox - 5
G&W - 6
Ganon - 6
Ike - 8
Kirby - 5
Bowser - 9
Link - 8
Lucario - 6
Lucas - 6
Luigi - 6
Mario - 6
Marth - 6
Metaknight - 5
Ness - 6
Peach - 6
Pikachu - 5
Olimar- 6
Pit - 6
ivysaur- 6
Charizard - 8
Squirtle - 5
IC - 5
Jiggly - 6
Rob - 6
Samus - 5
Sheik - 5
Snake - 10
Sonic - 8
ZSS - 5
Toonlink - 8
Wario - 7
Wolf - 7
Yoshi - 7
Zelda - 7
[/COLLAPSE]


Anyway, on to frame traps!
- (untippered)Fair->DS Beats out grabs and other possible punishes OoS (such as someone trying to jab you).

- Tipper uair (on shield)-> dtilt. Tipper utilt's shield push is surprisingly huge so dtilt catches a lot of attempted punishes.
- Any landing aerial -> jab. Jab has a large arc to protect you (and comes out quickly) if you feel like your landing is going to be punished.

- FF fair, FF nair, FF uair-> grab.

- Keep in mind, when FFing uair into the ground trying to bait out an AD, they have 4 (almost always, it's possible for it to be 2 though) frames of landing lag.

- Fair when the opponent is on the ground -> fair is bad. Don't do it. If they're in the air, it's good.

Dtilt is one of your best starting trapping moves.
[COLLAPSE="If you dtilt their shield"]- If they Spotdodge, React and DB
- If they roll behind you (they use an f-roll), the fastest roll is MK's at 23 frames. -7 for dtilt disadvantage. 16 frames to punish. Depending on the spacing of the roll, dsmash/fsmash if they roll through you. If tippered, -14 for dtilt leaving 9 frames. Dsmash/DB to punish
- If they roll away from you (back roll), the fastest is Lucario at 27 frames. -7 for dtilt disadvantage, 20 frames to punish. Dash DB to punish
- If they jump (jump data is averaged at about 6 frames), that leaves you with a 1 frame disadvantage. Jab beats/ties aerials that come out frame 5 (disjoint/range dependent) and beats aerials frames 6 or faster. Jab will end before an air dodge if the opponent chooses that, then you punish the AD for free.[/COLLAPSE]

Out of grab releases:
Lucario is a character I actually don't like to throw that much unless I know a very specific habit of theirs that I can punish. His quickest option is grab/jab at frame 6 each (Okay, well, technically, utilt if frame 5, but that hits behind him so idc) However you have a 1 frame advantage when you ground release someone putting his quickest, offensive, action at frame 7. As a result, you can always dtilt and hit him unless he chooses a defensive option. Shield, rolls, or spotdodge. With us being able to act on frame 22 out of out dtilt (assuming he chooses a defensive option other than shield), we can punish anything he chooses to do. This is the basic idea of this section. Dtilt is an amazing poke and allows up enough safety on shield, and ends quickly enough on whiff, that we can punish whatever action they take in theory. Usually on reaction unless it's a godtier defensive action (falco's spotdodge for example). Additionally, as our grab is 6 frames, we can input a grab with no fear of him being able to outspeed us.

Also I guess if they mash out quicker than you expected this would be helpful if you for some reason memorized it.

[COLLAPSE="Oh god this took way too long"]*Disclaimer, most of these characters you should just throw most of the time. However, if you want to try a frame trap on them out of a grab release, by all means try away.*
Diddy: Bananas, jab, dtilt... ugh. Just throw him unless you think you can get GR-> fair.
Snake: Jab (3). Jab clashes. Ftilt (4). Jab wins. Grenades make me not want to grab release him. Uthrow forever!
Falco: Not even going to try. He'll jab. He'll always jab. Just... no.
Marth: I don't care, just throw him.
Wario: You should be GRing him anyway, but, if there's a platform above you then oh well. Dtilt and stage 2 waft (58 seconds to 1:50) both hit on frame 5.
IC: Jab (4). Jab wins. If both are there pummel once then throw. If it's just Popo, then ground releasing is viable.
Olimar: Jab (4). Jab wins. Whistle (2super armor). Grab wins.
Pikachu: Jab (2). Spot Dodge, Shield. Dash attack (5) ftilt (5). Jab wins.
DDD: UpB (1-4invincible before super armor kicks in). Nothing else faster than frame 6. I'd feel so much better about grab releasing him if he has a not-z-axis-heavy spotdodge. Although his rolls are very meh frame wise so it's not that bad.
ZSS: Jab (1). Shield and spotdodge win. Utilt (3). Jab clashes. Dtilt (4) Jab wins. FlipKick (1-12invincible). Frame one jab and frame 3 move that sets up juggles? Don't bother, just throw.
G&W: Jab (4). Jab wins. UpB (5-13invincible). Jab wins. Grab release -> fair is still the best though.
Tink: Nothing faster than frame 6.
Fox: Jab (2). Shield, spot dodge. Dash attack (4). Jab wins. Shine (3. Invincible what appears to be 1-4). See Falco.
Wolf: Jab (3). Out jab will clash. Dtilt (5). Our jab wins. Shine (1-9invincible)
Peach: Jab (2). Spot dodge, shield. Nothing else faster than frame 6. However, jab will be seen a LOT in this situation (and on the reverse you being grab released). Just throw her.
DK: You have a -9 frame advantage when you release him. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS thow this monkey.
Kirby: Jab (3). Jab clashes. Dtilt (4) ftilt (5). Jab wins. Don't risk the trip from dtilt. Just throw him.
ROB: Jab (3) Dtilt (3 really now?). Our Jab clashes. Utilt (4) Dsmash (4 wtf, stupid move). Jab wins. Sidespecial (2 I think. Rob is a dumb character). UpB (1-4invincible). I hate this character. Just throw him.
Pit: Why is his moveset so fast? o_O Jab (5) and dsmash (5). Jab beats them. Utilt (2). Shield, Spotdodge beat it. WoI (1-5invincible). Mirror Shield (4-5Super armor on the ground. 6-17 acts as a normal shield),
Sonic: Jab (3). Can use jab to clash with it. Spring (1-10invincible). Jab is fast enough to beat it. No other options faster than frame 6. Dtilt/grab works just like Lucario outside of those two moves. UpB is a common use though. Jab may be your best option here.
Ike: Jab (3). Jab clashes.
Luigi: Jab (2). Shield, spotdodge. Dtilt (5), Ftilt (5), dsmash (5). Jab wins.
Sheik: Her frame data rivals/is faster than MK's... Just throw.
Ness: You have a +11 frame advantage on this child. There's next to no reason to ever throw this character. Ever. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS grab release.
Yoshi: Jab (3). Jab clashes. Yoshi is interesting. He won't shield or roll in this situation so he'll jab or spotdodge. If he jabs, jab will clash. However, it's a 27 frame jab vs Yoshi's 22 frame spotdodge. 50-50 shot. Just throw.
Charizard: Jab (4). Jab wins. Fly (3-? Super Armor). Jab will hit him but you'll get sucked in. Probably. idk. Just throw. Not worth the risk.
Squirtle: His ground moveset is really fast. Plus you have GR-> ****. Just air release.
Ivysaur: Dash Attack (4) Dtilt (4). Jab wins. Bullet Seed. (4. Invincible 1-3).
Lucas: You have a +11 frame advantage on this child. There's next to no reason to ever throw this character. Ever. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS grab release.
Mario: See Luigi. Add in: Super Jump Punch (3. 1-5invincible).
Bowser: UpB (1-5invincible). Jab clashes. Hitbox isn't out till frame 6 so dtilt will clash with Bowser's upB. Because Marth's throws are more laggy the heavier the character, they're super laggy on Bowser. I grab release a lot vs Bowser.
Samus: Jab (3). Jab clashes.
Falcon: Jab (3). Jab clashes.
Link: Nothing faster than frame 6. See Lucario.
Puff: Jab (5) Dash attack (5). Jab wins. I guess technically Rest hits frame 2 but w/e. She'll probably jump anyway. Jab is probably your best option.
Zelda: Dsmash (4). Jab wins. Dtilt (5). Jab wins. NeutralB (5-11invincible). Jab wins.
Ganon: Nothing faster than frame 6.

Yeah, this is mostly useless, but, oh well.[/COLLAPSE]

 

[B.A.M.]

Mah man CJ! That's what I like to see

 

[Shaya]

Aerial side b against most air born opponents is a frame trap.
(if this hasn't been mentioned).

Chars like sonic without a good forward hitting aerial only have the option of air dodging after getting struck by db1 in the air.

 

[C.J.]

Mah man CJ! That's what I like to see

Yeah... excuse me while I go die now. That took so long... so very very long ._.

Aerial side b against most air born opponents is a frame trap.
(if this hasn't been mentioned).

Chars like sonic without a good forward hitting aerial only have the option of air dodging after getting struck by db1 in the air.

One of these days, I'll have a match vs a character that isn't Diddy/the ditto and be able to use this...

 

[B.A.M.]

yes that is very true Shaya. thats why the " Ramin" combo isnt as crazy as it seems. Especially when it becomes a true combo with a jacketed DB.


Thank you C.J and Shaya! Marth Boards are so tyte. You guys actually sound knowledgeable about your character and wish to learn more. Damn i should drop Sonic lol. Hes so fun though, and i kinda own with him from time to time, thanks to that MikeHaze + Tyrant+ DEHF training.

 

[Shaya]

Marth boards have always been the best.

What's diddy's fair out again? I don't think its that bad against diddy tbh.

 

[C.J.]

Diddy's fair hits frame 6-9 or 6-10. Idr which.

 

[B.A.M.]

I forgot the frame disadvantage we have during aerial DS. Anyone remember? Im adding your stuff to the OP by the way C.J

 

[C.J.]

Aerial DS? Negative like... 95 frames. Or more. It's a lot.

 

[B.A.M.]

I also like FF uair -> utilt because it's pretty much combo-worthy at low percents (it was a legit combo startup in Melee too) even if the FF uair is tippered. Also a good way to ensure the kill if you reverse utilt to get that tipper hitbox, depending where they are when you land.

why do ff uair-> utilt at low percents when you can do things like:

ff uair>buffer sh ff nair> sh fair/ ff nair

ff uair> buffered sh ff nair> FH dair that Mike Haze

ff uair> stutter step fsmash Love this thing

heck even ff uair> sh fair> fair> DB is somewhat valid at low percents.

In any case there is a ton of better stuff to do when you get a ff uair at low percents that just utilt imo.

OP updated!!!

EDIT: My bad C.J, I meant aerial DB not DS.

 

[C.J.]

SHFFuair->nair really shouldn't work except on like Bowser/DK/ROB. It's super telegraphed and easy to SDI out of.

SHFFuair->usmash is your best option at low %s imo. 31ish% guaranteed+juggle set-up. It's awesome.

Oh, DB1 is -12 on shield iirc. /not relevant but whatever.
Actually, add that into the moves that will be starting frame traps part. Ends frame 30, -12 on shield, please.

DB1 is -24 on whiff. Assuming that you whiffed because the ADed, the quickest AD ends frame 39, so 15 frames there. Because you wouldn't react to someone ADing w/ DB1 take off 12 frames (I think a fair amount ala reaction time), which leaves you with a 3 frame advantage.

 

[Lord Chair]

Lol I concur dear sir, theres tons of frame traps (especially on the ledge) with nair. sh nair DI to where the character ends up landing, rolling or getting up buffer grab is one i really like. However Lord Chair Im not going for a general frame trap guide. I want to compile the most prominent frame traps we have. As well as the lesser used ones that can provide greater punishment then some of the ones we are using.

So can we get some Marth mains in here to get this started? hmm I should go ask Mike as well.


EDIT: Lord Chair Im going to ask you to please refrain from this banter. I dont want this thread derailed from the start. Out of all the boards I believe the Marth boards has been the most productive in recent times. I am really happy to see the proper analysis done as well as info being far easier to find juxtaposed to other boards. So lets keep the trend going kay?

not sure if troll

kk

What I see a lot of people doing wrong here is assuming fixed data for Marth. Frame traps aren't set in stone because they are dependent not only on your execution but also on your opponent's execution. Spotdodges may or may not beat your moves depending on when your hitboxes are out, if you dtilt the last frame of invincibility on someone's spotdodge you bet your *** he's going to punish you whereas if you dtilt the first frame of invincibility you are actually at an advantage.

 

[Shaya]

Be friendly.

 

[C.J.]

What I see a lot of people doing wrong here is assuming fixed data for Marth. Frame traps aren't set in stone because they are dependent not only on your execution but also on your opponent's execution. Spotdodges may or may not beat your moves depending on when your hitboxes are out, if you dtilt the last frame of invincibility on someone's spotdodge you bet your *** he's going to punish you whereas if you dtilt the first frame of invincibility you are actually at an advantage.

Thus why I'm *mostly* sticking to actions on shield or in a neutral position where they have to act, pretty much immediately (e.g. grab releases). Frame traps work best (well, only in traditional fighters) when the first action hits shield. Other than that there's really only "guaranteed" frame traps where it involves the opponent landing; such as FFuair to utilt to cover ADing into the ground.

 

[Lord Chair]

Even hitting a shield has variables. Frame advantage on shield is not fixed either, it depends on how late into the hitbox you're hitting the shield. If a hitbox lasts for 5 frames, naturally hitting on the 5th frame is more advantageous than hitting with the first frame.

 

[C.J.]

Luckily, I'm using the earliest the hitbox is out so it's a worst case scenario. By hitting with the later part of the hitbox, all it does is put us in an even better situation.

 

[B.A.M.]

Yes lord chair of course these are factors; same goes for other fighters that's where the term meaty comes from.

Im sure its quite clear that a dtilt done on the last frame of a spotdodge is fail. If you feel that this is all revolutionary information then ill put a little disclaimer for u. The whole idea is this: these defensive options take time. If u are right next to falco and he spotdodges, unless you have terrible reaction time ur not going to go ' oh hay let me dtilt.'

Just the same as I hope someone can understand an aerial frame trap isn't work necessarily on someone ADing 2 frames away from the ground.
Youre not stating anything not known Lord Chair, and by C.Js info, you can see as he said he is testing the first hitbox. I appreciate your concern about the data; these factors should all be considered. Right now this thread is young and Im basically trying to do with with the solid Marth mains. After i feel its in a good place i will put up noob friendly disclaimers like yours.

 

[Lord Chair]

lol wtf

no ofc im not stating anything new its not like ANYTHING IN THE OP IS NEW EITHER

real

 

[B.A.M.]

Lord Chair. Im of course its not new; read through the OP. All Im saying is I concur with you and I believe that should be inferred. However I will take what you said and add it to the OP later. I discussing things with solid Marth mains right now. They are all aware of what you are saying and so am I. Thats why some frame traps are better than others in this game even if they do less damage. What you are stating is something majority ( hopefully) of competitive smashers would know. Which is why im stating it as a noob friendly disclaimer. nothing wrong with that. I need to cater to our new players as well.

Im not trying to debate with you. Nothing "lol wtf" has been said. Nothing Ive said to you has been trolling. If you wish to contribute, I am more than happy to listen. I do take you last post as contribution and I thank you. However, it is seeming more and more clear that this seems to be some kind of debate for you. So I will say this: if you dont approve of the thread, then dont bother with it. If you dont approve of what Im doing, then dont bother with me. Its really that simple. I dont want to have to call a moderator over here for this because Im going to make the inference you have a solid head on your shoulders and you will stop with these catty post.

Thank you.

Real talk though. If you have something to contribute Im all ears!


EDIT: To my fellow Marth mains! let me know how those OS work for you! If you have any other useful frame traps or OS like DB^reverse dtilt OS at the edge or something let me know!

 

[PEACE7]

Good **** we got going on here.

 

[mikeHAZE]

yeah, thanks so much for this, this is great.

 

[B.A.M.]

yeah, thanks so much for this, this is great.

haha fasho my brotha. Oh that reminds me, im updating the OP right now. I need some Marth mains help with some more in depth nair trap testing. Also I want to start working on Marth's throw traps; they too good. Anyone got the advantage data on his throws?

I would like to start a discussion before I add to the OP again on throw traps. I know a lot of our throws place our opponents in an AD or get hit immediately situation. Can we start speaking of what are the best to punish both of these scenarios? What traps do we have that are guaranteed if improper DI isnt used? Lets get that discussion on the road.

Again thank you so much Marth boards. You mains make everything so easy. Every other board ive started this project is just LOL DIDNT READ. Well Lucario boards is doing somethings. theyre definitely not on the Marth's boards level.