Mario's Gimping Discussion! This Week: Zero Suit Samus

[Judge Judy]

Ok, until Boss has his Gimp List up, we can discuss how to gimp such and such characters on here. Just start discussing and I'll try to update things as we go along. Right now, this thread will be kind of just informal discussion, but if things go well we can try having weekly character discussions or something. Also, please no flaming or trolling, seriously

Notes:

Cape = ****

Uair barrage

Bair barrage

Uair to Fair meteor

fireball + aerials = ****

FLUDD + cape = more ****

FLUDD > Aether, PK Thunder 1 & 2, and Final Cutter

Nair > Fire Fox, Bird, and Wolf


Week #1's discussion was Meta Knight:

Well gimping MK is all about forcing him to use his Up B and then trying to gimp that directly with the cape. MK's glide makes him tricky to edgeguard since it moves fast and he can use to go under the stage, however, it's not impossible to intercept and as soon as he starts needing to use his jumps he becomes a lot more vulnerable. MK is also tough to edgeguard since he can still punish mistakes with his aerials, and if you’re careless there's a good possibility you can get smacked in an undesirable position by his Up B.

As far as what Mario can do (Note that this info is subject to change, so discuss and debate as needed):

-Uair, Nair, and Bair are all viable options in terms of edgeguarding with aerials; I personally don't use Dair off-stage other than for stage spikes and Fair is just far too unreliable against MK.

-Cape glide is good if MK is very far off-stage and an Uair out of it will most likely KO him if he's that far off-stage; situational, but a good tool to have nevertheless.

-The cape works well but you should try to be somewhat conservative with it so you don't miss a chance to cape his Up B, also, it's a little slow compared to MK's aerials so it can be punished if you're not careful; pretty much self-explanatory, but basically you want to focus on caping MK's Up B when the opportunity arises.

-FLUDD works pretty well on MK's Up B but you absolutely want to have it fully-charged for best results, still FLUDD will be more used for aiding cape gimps rather than gimping on its own. Additionally, the FLUDD can slow down MK's glide and FIHL works well on MK's glide atk. Overall, the FLUDD is best saved for MK's glide and Up B.

Week #2's discussion was Jigglypuff:

Jigglypuff is near impossible to gimp; you can try to pressure Jigglypuff offstage and make things very unpleasant for her, but there's really no way consistently gimp her other than flat-out KOing her.

Week #3's discussion was Mr. Game & Watch:

3 reasons why G&W is near impossible to gimp:

-G&W gets his Up B back even after being caped

-G&W's Up B can meteor cancel

-FLUDD does not sufficiently halt the momentum of G&W's Up B

G&W's Up B gets good vertical height and great horizontal distance; his recovery may be predictable but there's really no way to consistently gimp his Up B. However, you can still try to get as many hits as you can off-stage and try to edgehog his Up B.


Week #4's discussion was King Dedede: *Some rough notes*

-Cape ***** his Up B

-Uair, Nair, and Bair are all good off-stage moves

-Possible to gimp his Up B with FLUDD

Week #5's discussion was Toon Link: *Some rough notes*

-Uair is a good way to quickly hit him out of his tether

-Cape ***** his recovery

-Bombs can potentially save TL's recovery and can be hard to get around as well

 

[MBreeto]

Spanimals = gold. Seriously.

CF and Ganon are caped somewhat easily too

 

[Judge Judy]

Spanimals = gold. Seriously.

CF and Ganon are caped somewhat easily too

Alright here are my notes so far: Cape = ****

Seriously though, we should talk about characters' options while recovering; most of us already know that the cape ***** most recoveries, but we should try to go a little more in-depth than that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Use N-air, B-air, U-air, Cape, and FLUDD offstage. F-air is OK if you are good at reading your opponent. Fireballs can also annoy your opponent.

Edgeguarding space animals. FLUDD messes up their SideB. Cape screws them over after that. What's also very good against them is throwing out random N-airs, as the lingering hitbox will catch them out of their recovery and put them in a tough position.

Edgeguarding Link and Ganon, just N-air them once, and edgehog. Cape is also good and has more range.

Edgeguarding Marth. There is a certain position where you can Cape him if he's trying to sweetspot the ledge with his Up-B. In this position, you can Cape him right before he's in range of sweetspotting the ledge, and then when he DOES Up-B, he's dead. FLUDD messes up his recovery a lot. N-air also hits him out of his Up-B.

Edgeguarding Metaknight...it takes a lot of mindgames and skill to Cape his Up-B, but it can be done with prediction. Also N-air trades hits with Up-B.

Edgeguarding Snake. Boss combo: U-air his midair jump. Then Spike him with F-air.

Just to name a few off the top of my head.

 

[Judge Judy]

That's some good stuff, but I'm looking a lot more for how the opposing character can retaliate and how Mario can deal with such.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Okay.

Fox will usually try to mess up your edgeguarding with Shine Stalling. A lingering hitbox in the right place still can punish his recovery. This is particularly important to do if you know he's going for the ledge. If he lands on stage, one of the possible counters to that is rolling away, and F-smashing behind you to reach him as he lands.

Falco's SideB is trickier in that it starts up faster and has less ending lag. It really takes mindgames to punish his recovery. Like usual, lingering hitboxes are wonderful in helping to punish his recovery.

Wolf is the easiest of the three to edgeguard. He lacks options in mixing up his recovery. His Side-B should almost ALWAYS be punished by N-air under any circumstances. His Up-B can outprioritize your N-air, just be careful, but that is fortunately edgehoged easily.

Link will try to throw projectiles and F-air or N-air as he recovers. His F-air outranges your N-air, so watch out. If you predict any one of these, he will be open to be punished.

Ganondorf will also try to N-air while recovering. His U-air can be annoying to work around if he recovers from below. Many Ganondorf players try to keep the option of Side-Bing on stage open, but this can be punished easily with a Smash if you are prepared.

A good Marth will make it very difficult to get inside his range while he recovers. It takes some reading to punish him while he's just floating towards you. Watch out for the occasional counter (FLUDD sets it off, so beware). Marth may try to edgestall a bit with his Up-B. Be patient and shield near the ledge as neccessary, and once he ledgehop F-air or N-airs, jump out of shield and punish with a N-air or U-air or Up-smash out of shield to KO him vertically.

 

[Aayla]

Link will try to throw projectiles and F-air or N-air as he recovers. His F-air outranges your N-air, so watch out. If you predict any one of these, he will be open to be punished.

Well, that's not always so easy. However my friends' Links rarely spam many projectiles because the recovery would be hardest for them.

Marth and Ganondorf are the character that bother me the most while recovering. In particular Ganondorf U-Air . Marth is odious regardless of what he does.

 

[bobson]

One drop from the FLUDD will push Ike far enough away from the edge to miss grabbing it with his up-B and die.

 

[Judge Judy]

Yah, this is good stuff. I'm going to be putting up some more notes. Just keep throwing ideas out there.

Edit: added some really rough notes, but I'll try to improve things over time.

 

[Matador]

Olimar....you really need to watch that super armor on his down B. That's his main defense against edgeguarding attempts against aerials and cape. To deal with this...bait the downB THEN make your move. Nearly anything you do can gimp him, but you can't be predictable with your approach toward him offstage.

Fludd works during his downB as well.

 

[Judge Judy]

Nice, good stuff Matador. BTW, the cape definitely works on SA.

 

[Matador]

Oh yeah, so it's only aerials?

Lol, we can prolly just scratch out that post then. Cape is horrible for Olimar, especially after his DJ.

Offtopic yet oddly still ONtopic: I've Dashattacked opponents on the ledge and stagespiked them on FD and BF. Anyone know how to do this consistently?

 

[hippiedude92]

ARe you sure they didn't DI towards the stage?

 

[fromundaman]

Oh yeah, so it's only aerials?

Lol, we can prolly just scratch out that post then. Cape is horrible for Olimar, especially after his DJ.

Offtopic yet oddly still ONtopic: I've Dashattacked opponents on the ledge and stagespiked them on FD and BF. Anyone know how to do this consistently?

Do you know what charactes you've managed that on? I know some characters, like Kirby, can ledge grab characters who's hurtboxes are above the stage when they hang onto the ledge, so it might just be the same for Mario's Dash attack. It makes sense for it to stagespike too, since it would send the opponent upwards, but most of their hurtbox is under the stage.


Also, if you can, caping Diddy's side B then just grabbing the ledge seems to work pretty well. Can you FLUDD his UpB?
Not sure what he would do to get around it TBH. I don't usually use Mario in that matchup.

 

[Matador]

Do you know what charactes you've managed that on? I know some characters, like Kirby, can ledge grab characters who's hurtboxes are above the stage when they hang onto the ledge, so it might just be the same for Mario's Dash attack. It makes sense for it to stagespike too, since it would send the opponent upwards, but most of their hurtbox is under the stage.

I did it on a Lucario just a few minutes ago on BF. He wasn't on the ledge yet though...he was just about to freefall and autograb it when I hit him and he was send diagonally downward to the right. Very odd, we should look into this.

Also, if you can, caping Diddy's side B then just grabbing the ledge seems to work pretty well. Can you FLUDD his UpB?
Not sure what he would do to get around it TBH. I don't usually use Mario in that matchup.

I'm not sure if you can Fludd it, but what I normally do is cape the sideB, then hang on the ledge. If they try to vertically recover with their upB, I drop my Nair down to meet it. Once Diddy's upB is interrupted while moving, he goes into this weird falling animation where he is unable to move for awhile, making recovering close to impossible in most cases.

If he tries to recover at an angle, Fludd him while he's charging or cape it if you think you have the timing.

 

[mario brawler]

is ther some form of effectivly gimping samus?
If I cape her DJ her bombs just let her switch back to her normal momentum, her up-b also comes out quite fast and it can be a bother to have it scrath up your face in an attempt of a gimp
she seems like she has too many options, she falls slowly, has bombs and missles, her grapple beam and her up-b is pretty safe
one thing that has managed to work a few times is actually Fairing her while she's popping out her bomb frame but sometimes its hard to predict where she'll go :/...

 

[Matador]

There's no clear cut way to gimp Samus, and it's generally not safe since her Dair has wtf-range and power. But, if you are safe with it, Mario has an answer to everything Samus can do while recovering. Fludd her out of bomb range, cape the upB....or cape during the bombs and fludd the upB....

Your main concern is to get her far enough away from the ledge to not be able to autosnap the ledge with her upB and KEEP her away. It's more outlasting her than anything.

 

[Judge Judy]

Sounds good guys, what do you want me to add specifically though?

 

[~Simple~]

There's no clear cut way to gimp Samus, and it's generally not safe since her Dair has wtf-range and power. But, if you are safe with it, Mario has an answer to everything Samus can do while recovering. Fludd her out of bomb range, cape the upB....or cape during the bombs and fludd the upB....

Your main concern is to get her far enough away from the ledge to not be able to autosnap the ledge with her upB and KEEP her away. It's more outlasting her than anything.

Don't forget the fireballs. Samus's Up B lag makes it perfect to gimp with a fast fireball. Then that leaves for a quick double jumb ariel attack or cape to add on the gimp combo.

Spoiler

Gimp combo 'FTW

 

[Judge Judy]

Alright, I'm going to start weekly character gimping discussions soon. Who would you guys like to do first?

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Meta Knight/Snake?

 

[Famous]

Well...let me jog down a couple of tidbits on MK

1. Can be jab locked [Low %]
2. B moves can be FLUDDED or Caped
3. Can be Utilt locked until about 35%?

[NOTE] Never try to follow up after Utilt when playing a good MK...they tend to Dair these days...
So, the "Famous" combo is kinda useless...

I also realized that Mario's Fair goes through MK's tornado

As for Snake...
1. "Famous" combo works extremely well
2. Somewhat easy to Fair after jabbing him offstage
3. Can be Utilt locked until the 40's

For those of you who don't know about the "Famous" combo I'll explain

After Utilt Lock, read the air dodgge then pivot grab, Dthrow...After this be creative

Here's an example of my follow-ups
Sh approach- Spot dodge into thier shield- Utilt,Utilt,Utilt(more utilts depending on character) Pivot grab-Dthrow(if they air dodge again I would Pivot grab again) Uair,Uair then Fsmash(optional...it just looks sexy)

 

[Matador]

I've been caping tornados as of late. Not to gimp him, but to keep him away and rack up damage at the same time. Anyone else do this or see fault with it? I'm probably just fighting bad MKs.

 

[Judge Judy]

I've been caping tornados as of late. Not to gimp him, but to keep him away and rack up damage at the same time. Anyone else do this or see fault with it? I'm probably just fighting bad MKs.

Nothing wrong with that, I do the same thing unless I'm right next to him, where a Nair will suffice for knocking him out of it during its startup.

 

[Famous]

I just FLUDD tornado now since I always *** the cape timing...

 

[Judge Judy]

Well...let me jog down a couple of tidbits on MK

2. B moves can be FLUDDED or Caped

Yes but MK is not going to be reckless with them after you've punished him a few times.

3. Can be Utilt locked until about 35%?

No, he can get out after 1 Utilt; best you can do is combo Utilt into an Up B.

2. Somewhat easy to Fair after jabbing him offstage

Yes, Mario's Fair meteor is the preferred way to gimp Snake, but don't limit yourself to only Fair.

3. Can be Utilt locked until the 40's

If the Snake is good at SDIing he can get out in the 20's, but you can still combo it into an Up B.

I just FLUDD tornado now since I always *** the cape timing...

That works too, from a distance.

 

[Famous]

Yeah, I'm just throwing out possibilities...

 

[Judge Judy]

Well, a lot of fighting MK is spacing and keeping up.

 

[vato_break]

is it just me or does cape **** agianst falco,i mean i find myself using it alot agiasnt him...

 

[Matador]

Cape outranges/outprioritizes falco. I've been saying for awhile that Cape still has untapped potential as an attack rather than for gimping.

 

[fromundaman]

I agree Matador. Cape is an awesome attack, especially SH cape, since you can follow it up with a falling Uair.

 

[Matt07]

Hmm...maybe I should use Cape against Falco's then. They're camping on WiFi is hella good >_<.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I love the cape, it's one of the centers of my mindgames.

-Today, I did something that was really weird, my friend was using Peach, and I dash attacked by accident, and then he somehow went upward (he was shielding when I hit him), and I accidentally walked off the edge and F-aired for the kill. I saved that replay, it's epic. (If ONLY I could get it in my sig!)

 

[fromundaman]

DA has two hitboxes, one right when it comes out then one after it's been out for a little while. They both send the opponent in different directions, though I forget which hits which way.

 

[Matt07]

Caping Snake is just fun, I just like Caping they're Cypher over and over again.

Until they're too high to reach .

 

[Famous]

Lol, I don't...They drop ****loads of c4's and grenades until they reach the ground...

I like FLUDDING thier C4 away when they try to recover with it...So funny

 

[Matador]

They Nair on the way down and autocancel it as well so it's hard to punish. I hate trying to edgeguard them.

 

[Judge Judy]

FLUDD ***** Falco's phantasm on its own, and the cape is just lol. Anyway, Uair is good at knocking Snake out of his Cypher quickly and Fair meteors are farily easy to land during Cypher.

 

[fromundaman]

Wait... you can FLUDD C4?

 

[Judge Judy]

Wait... you can FLUDD C4?

I think he meant pushing Snake away from hitting himself with his C4.