Social Mario Hotel - Super Social 4

[miniada]

What's up Mario Mains.
I pretty much main every bro in every game, but I haven't really felt like my Mario was good enough to main in tournament until today. One thing I want to ask: How do you guys think Mario does against Mega Man, Yoshi, and Ganon? Ganon (especially the new one) I've had a lot of trouble with Doc and Luigi because of their inability to get reliable punishes on him. Yoshi is just flat out annoying with Doc and Luigi. (I think Doc is better than Mario against Yoshi though, not sure.) And Mega Man is just an absolute trash matchup for Doc and Luigi.

At best yoshi is 50:50 none of his moves or safe on shield. And he doesn't have a good shield grab. We can edgeguard him well. He can't frame trap us with eggs due to our cape. Uair and bair are good spacing tools. And fireballs are useful for approaching and poking at him but use them wisely. Ganon is 55:45 and this is why

is +1 I Heavily disagree with A2ZOMG , in no world does Gannon Beat mario. look we have a projectile, gannon does not. Mario literally never needs to come to gannon. and gannons midrange options are all supper punishable. choke, wizkick and DA are all really spotdodgeable and punishable for massive damage on gannon. what is annoying here is the range and how hard a few of the normals are to punish like the spartan FTilt. Dont be silly and just rush in right after you get pushed back, however these attacks are easy to both perfect shield and maneuver around.

Gannons edgegaurding is a matter of concern for mario. however mario does have some potential to mix up his trajectory and with things like cape shakkiing up my momentum i dont find this to be anything matchup defining since it is a lot easier for mario to get gannon offstage, where mario has great edgegaurd potential of his own. mario has alot of combos on gannon, better mobility, and forces the approach in this matchup. i dont see how we loose it

 

[MarioMeteor]

My eye muscle twitched every time I saw "Gannon."

 

[KenMeister]

At best yoshi is 50:50 none of his moves or safe on shield. And he doesn't have a good shield grab. We can edgeguard him well. He can't frame trap us with eggs due to our cape. Uair and bair are good spacing tools. And fireballs are useful for approaching and poking at him but use them wisely. Ganon is 55:45 and this is why

I'm sorry but after seeing that awful write-up by that random I'm not convinced Mario wins like that. Sorry.

 

[Macedonian]

My eye muscle twitched every time I saw "Gannon."

lol that's my fault for the spelling. ill try to be a bit better about it.

 

[Underhill]

Also, Rosalina, if you don't mind, though I've thouroly convinced my self doc is better at it.

Since I main both Dr Mario and Rosalina, I'm going to have say while Doc is better at the MU than Luigi, he isn't good against Rosalina than Mario. Same problems that Mario have when going up against Rosalina, but worse. Doc is slow meaning that its going to be harder to approach Rosalina than with Mario, gets jiggled harder because of his air speed being slower than Mario, and because of his recovery being worse than Mario, its easier for Rosalina to gimp him if you don't mix up your recovery options and for the love of god, do not get knock off far. Even if you can reach the ledge after being knocked far, she can still exploit his recovery with d-air, b-air and maybe n-air.

 

[Xeze]

Mario's main problem vs Rosa, imo, is the lack of range. Thus Luma protects Rosa from almost every attack Mario does. Doc suffers from the same.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario might have the adv vs Ganon in current patch, mostly because Ganon N-air got significant nerfs and because shield changes are stupid for Ganon. I mean...it's stupid when at low percents Mario can sometimes punish Ganon on hit for N-air currently.

Before that patch...no.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Mario might have the adv vs Ganon in current patch, mostly because Ganon N-air got significant nerfs and because shield changes are stupid for Ganon. I mean...it's stupid when at low percents Mario can sometimes punish Ganon on hit for N-air currently.

Before that patch...no.

You forgot every move that isn't nair having 2 times more hitstun. His moves are like, actually safe on shield now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You forgot every move that isn't nair having 2 times more hitstun. His moves are like, actually safe on shield now.

Ganon rarely goes for shield pressure against good players outside of U-smash. Good players usually try to outmaneuver him.

So really, the shield changes don't benefit him.

 

[Macedonian]

Mario's main problem vs Rosa, imo, is the lack of range. Thus Luma protects Rosa from almost every attack Mario does. Doc suffers from the same.

I feel like the range isn't that big of a deal, most charachters pittance us, to be honest I really like this matchup, I like doing a lot mixing up of short hop Dair, dash attack, and dash/tomahawk grab into back throw since all three of these options will push Luna.I also like to mix in a healthy amount of Jan pressure onto rosa. Either after an auto canceled aerial, or just running in for it, it helps keep the rosa from getting in to much control of the match flow.

I am also a big proponent of fludd in this matchup, even in misstate shooting flood can be great to push rosa on one side so that she's close enough to the edge that a dash attack of jab combo will kill Luma. Also flood her offstage, if you push her out there she is a sitting duck for being capped, and if she wants to go underneath you to avoid the flood then she has to get through your easy bair stage spike.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Mario might have the adv vs Ganon in current patch, mostly because Ganon N-air got significant nerfs and because shield changes are stupid for Ganon. I mean...it's stupid when at low percents Mario can sometimes punish Ganon on hit for N-air currently.

Before that patch...no.

What? Like, actually what? Ganondorf would be lucky to land a hit on Mario, much less take both stocks off him. The only thing Ganondorf has over Mario is power, which is kinda hard to use when your being hit with frame 5 attacks over and over again and getting Caped and FLUDDED to hell.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What? Like, actually what? Ganondorf would be lucky to land a hit on Mario, much less take both stocks off him. The only thing Ganondorf has over Mario is power, which is kinda hard to use when your being hit with frame 5 attacks over and over again and getting Caped and FLUDDED to hell.

Ganon N-air is 7 frames and outranges Mario pretty convincingly.

Plus he has a D-tilt that outranges like...everything on the ground. Slower at 10 frames but Mario can't exactly contest it directly.

Throw in the fact he can juggle and edgeguard Mario actually pretty consistently (N-air usually trades with Mario's Up-B, gimping him), it's not by any means that easy for Mario.

Also you aren't Caping or FLUDDing anyone who knows the matchup and recovers low.

You forgot every move that isn't nair having 2 times more hitstun. His moves are like, actually safe on shield now.

What MarioMeteor cites is exactly why the shield changes in fact don't benefit Ganon, by saying Ganon would be "lucky to land a hit" implying that your goal is to try to trick him into whiffing, meaning GENERALLY SPEAKING Ganon doesn't touch your shield.

Shield changes benefit Mario more for the times he does get in Ganon's face, but more importantly Ganon's N-air got less rewarding as of this patch for walling Mario.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

A2Z, I'm pretty sure FLUDD alone forces characters like Ike to recover low. It's not like it's useless or anything.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Ganon N-air is 7 frames and outranges Mario pretty convincingly.

Plus he has a D-tilt that outranges like...everything on the ground. Slower at 10 frames but Mario can't exactly contest it directly.

Throw in the fact he can juggle and edgeguard Mario actually pretty consistently (N-air usually trades with Mario's Up-B, gimping him), it's not by any means that easy for Mario.

Also you aren't Caping or FLUDDing anyone who knows the matchup and recovers low.

What MarioMeteor cites is exactly why the shield changes in fact don't benefit Ganon, by saying Ganon would be "lucky to land a hit" implying that your goal is to try to trick him into whiffing, meaning GENERALLY SPEAKING Ganon doesn't touch your shield.

Shield changes benefit Mario more for the times he does get in Ganon's face, but more importantly Ganon's N-air got less rewarding as of this patch for walling Mario.

You're assuming that Mario will actually allow Ganondorf to use these attacks. He literally doesn't have one attack that's faster than Mario's. Mario has a back air that's 5 frames that outranges Ganondorf on the ground, and an invincible up smash that Ganondorf can't contest. Throw in the fact that Mario can juggle and edgeguard Ganondorf far more consistently than the latter can, and I honestly cannot see how this isn't easy for Mario.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

You're assuming that Mario will actually allow Ganondorf to use these attacks. He literally doesn't have one attack that's faster than Mario's. Mario has a back air that's 5 frames that outranges Ganondorf on the ground, and an invincible up smash that Ganondorf can't contest. Throw in the fact that Mario can juggle and edgeguard Ganondorf far more consistently than the latter can, and I honestly cannot see how this isn't easy for Mario.

I see everything except for up smash. I think A2Z said something about WizKick trading favorably with that attack, but I don't really see that, especially with how unsafe WizKick is outside of shield poking (a Mario that knows the MU should be able to get the timing for powershielding Down B if he predicts it).

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2Z, I'm pretty sure FLUDD alone forces characters like Ike to recover low. It's not like it's useless or anything.

Except Mario is horrible at edgeguarding low.

You're assuming that Mario will actually allow Ganondorf to use these attacks. He literally doesn't have one attack that's faster than Mario's. Mario has a back air that's 5 frames that outranges Ganondorf on the ground, and an invincible up smash that Ganondorf can't contest. Throw in the fact that Mario can juggle and edgeguard Ganondorf far more consistently than the latter can, and I honestly cannot see how this isn't easy for Mario.

Mario B-air is 6 frames. At best it trades with Ganon N-air, but usually it loses directly. It's also risky to throw out short hopped against Ganon's F-tilt, F-smash, and U-smash.

Mario has to GET IN FIRST, because frankly Ganondorf outranges SWORD USERS with his attacks. And Ganondorf can contest Mario U-smash with aerial Wizkick. This usually TRADES and kills at around 80% if fresh. Mario doesn't get to U-smash Ganon's landing for free unlike most heavies.

Ganondorf edgeguards Mario waaaaaay more consistently than the other way around. You aren't going to gimp Ganon if he DIs well and recovers low. Cape and FLUDD simply don't reach low very well, and Ganon can beat basically any edgeguard attempt with U-air if he has space to do so.

Mario cannot actually beat Ganon's edgeguards head on if he spaces them correctly, and his Up-B usually trades with and gets gimped by N-air.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Sorry, A2ZOMG , I don't really see it. I have rarely seen you cite frame data as a source, and the fact that Mario destroys Ganon up close cannot be ignored.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Except Mario is horrible at edgeguarding low.

Mario B-air is 6 frames.

Mario has to GET IN FIRST, because frankly Ganondorf outranges SWORD USERS with his attacks. And Ganondorf can contest Mario U-smash with aerial Wizkick. This usually TRADES and kills at around 80% if fresh. Mario doesn't get to U-smash Ganon's landing for free unlike most heavies.

Ganondorf edgeguards Mario waaaaaay more consistently than the other way around. You aren't going to gimp Ganon if he DIs well and recovers low. Cape and FLUDD simply don't reach low very well, and Ganon can beat basically any edgeguard attempt with U-air if he has space to do so.

Mario cannot actually beat Ganon's edgeguards head on if he spaces them correctly, and his Up-B usually trades with and gets gimped by N-air.

A neutral air offstage is all it takes to end Ganondorf's existence. Wizard's Foot isn't a move you can throw around just for the hell of it, and it damn sure isn't one that you can use to safely cover landings. It may work the first two times, but after that, your ass is getting forward smashed or FLUDDed offstage.
The difference between Mario and Ganondorf is that Mario can actually survive a hit offstage. If Ganondorf so much as blinks while he's recovering he won't make it back. Like I said, neutral air for recovering low, and Ganondorf's finished. Stage spiking is also an option, depending on the stage.

 

[HeroMystic]

Not getting into the heart of the discussion, but aerial wizkick does trade favorably with U-Smash and it has a landing hitbox, so powershielding Ganon's Down-B doesn't matter much.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sorry, A2ZOMG , I don't really see it. I have rarely seen you cite frame data as a source, and the fact that Mario destroys Ganon up close cannot be ignored.

I can cite way more frame data than any of you if I feel like it. I have almost all startup times memorized, and know IASA windows and relative safety on block for characters I've invested time in playing, including both Mario and Ganon for that matter.

Mario does combo Ganon and pressure him well up close, but it's equally important to note that Mario HAS TO GET IN FIRST, and this doesn't just happen for free when Ganon has basically some of the longest range in the game on aerials that are actually good, unlike Shulk.

For what it's worth, I believe as of patch changes Mario does win this 55/45, for two reasons. Ganon's tipper N-air now only does 8%, making a trade at that range actually not favorable, and at low percents, the middle hitbox of Ganon's N-air is not safe on hit and can be punished, which gives Mario more options to get in with a grab and gain control early.

A neutral air offstage is all it takes to end Ganondorf's existence. Wizard's Foot isn't a move you can throw around just for the hell of it, and it damn sure isn't one that you can use to safely cover landings. It may work the first two times, but after that, your *** is getting forward smashed or FLUDDed offstage.
The difference between Mario and Ganondorf is that Mario can actually survive a hit offstage. If Ganondorf so much as blinks while he's recovering he won't make it back. Like I said, neutral air for recovering low, and Ganondorf's finished. Stage spiking is also an option, depending on the stage.

Read the part where I stated Ganon can beat any of Mario's edgeguard attempts with U-air.

N-air is one of Mario's better edgeguards, but it's not that good against Ganon either if he saves his double jump and U-air.

Also Mario can't make it back if he's N-aired out of his Up-B, which is not hard to do.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

A neutral air offstage is all it takes to end Ganondorf's existence. Wizard's Foot isn't a move you can throw around just for the hell of it, and it damn sure isn't one that you can use to safely cover landings. It may work the first two times, but after that, your *** is getting forward smashed or FLUDDed offstage.
The difference between Mario and Ganondorf is that Mario can actually survive a hit offstage. If Ganondorf so much as blinks while he's recovering he won't make it back. Like I said, neutral air for recovering low, and Ganondorf's finished. Stage spiking is also an option, depending on the stage.

Hate to side with A2ZOMG , but Mario's Nair isn't a trivial answer to Ganon recovering low, especially if you land the soft hit. Ganon has more tools for edgeguarding Mario than the other way around.

Now if there's something I do disagree with him, it's that the threat Cape and FLUDD alone forces a lot of characters to recover low, and that's where he sort of struggles. Characters such as Ike, Ganon (yes, he counts), Falcon, and Rosa have to recover in some conventional way to not accidentally get caught by Cape or FLUDD. Under that circumstance would I agree that Mario's edgeguarding game is mediocre.

Not to suddenly go off on a tangent, but A2ZOMG , what do you think of Mario's placement on this list?

http://m.imgur.com/ij6UJn4

 

[A2ZOMG]

There's a lot of problems with the tier list that aren't specifically Mario, and you might have heard me talk about them before. For instance, Diddy is easily the 2nd best character in the game.

Ness is waaaaaaaaaaay too high. The rest of the A tier imo is better than Mario, and Villager and MK belong in that tier as well.

There's a lot of dumb stuff but that's just the top of the list.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I'm just curious about what you feel about Mario's placement and why you disagree.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Not getting into the heart of the discussion, but aerial wizkick does trade favorably with U-Smash and it has a landing hitbox, so powershielding Ganon's Down-B doesn't matter much.

I didn't say it couldn't be done, I said that it could only be used so many times before it becomes more of a risk than an option.

Hate to side with A2ZOMG , but Mario's Nair isn't a trivial answer to Ganon recovering low, especially if you land the soft hit. Ganon has more tools for edgeguarding Mario than the other way around.

Now if there's something I do disagree with him, it's that the threat Cape and FLUDD alone forces a lot of characters to recover low, and that's where he sort of struggles. Characters such as Ike, Ganon (yes, he counts), Falcon, and Rosa have to recover in some conventional way to not accidentally get caught by Cape or FLUDD. Under that circumstance would I agree that Mario's edgeguarding game is mediocre.

Not to suddenly go off on a tangent, but A2ZOMG , what do you think of Mario's placement on this list?

http://m.imgur.com/ij6UJn4

It doesn't take that much to gimp Ganondorf. While he may have more edgeguarding options, Mario has more effective ones.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I didn't say it couldn't be done, I said that it could only be used so many times before it becomes more of a risk than an option.

It doesn't take that much to gimp Ganondorf. While he may have more edgeguarding options, Mario has more effective ones.

The point is Mario doesn't get to U-smash Ganon's landing for free which also means Mario can't play as aggressively to catch Ganon's landing as he would some other heavies. Then obviously, Ganon is also heavy enough to take that risk and not die at comparable percents.

And I think you're underselling Ganon's recovery. The lack of edgehogging and the decent vertical distance on Ganon's Up-B make him pretty decent at recovering in the majority of matchups. Mario in particular has some of the worst low edgeguards in the game, which is not hard for Ganon to beat by saving his double jump and U-air intelligently and just being ready to tech stage spikes after recovering super low. Ganon covers options more effectively than Mario and Mario's recovery is comparably predictable as Ganon's given his Up-B also doesn't go that far either.

So the advantage offstage goes to Ganon because Mario actually has to respect hitboxes and doesn't reach low very well, while Ganon doesn't need to respect hitboxes offstage nearly as much and can cover both high and low options reliably with moves that will kill.

And I disagree about Mario's placement because there's characters that are better than Mario, and people haven't learned that Mario has noticeably bad matchups within the top 10, and outside of it.

Mario has noticeable trouble against Rosa, Fox, MK, Diddy, and Ryu. That's already half of the top 10 cast that is obviously unfavorable for him. Some of these characters either wall him, or in the case of Fox and MK can really punish his landing consistently while being generally better in neutral overall. Actually Rosa both walls and punishes landings really well especially while she has Luma around.

Falcon is kinda overrated but I believe as the metagame evolves he will also demonstrate himself to be one of Mario's harder matchups given like Fox, he's strong in neutral and insane at punishing landings. And Mario can't cheese Falcon nearly as well as some characters given his gimp options against low recoveries are very limited. If Falcon for whatever dumb reason remains popular, that's actually a reason to play Doctor Mario over Mario because Doc actually wins that matchup.

 

[HeroMystic]

I didn't say it couldn't be done, I said that it could only be used so many times before it becomes more of a risk than an option.

Wasn't disagreeing with you actually. Was actually replying to the idea that Wizkick can be powershielded.

You do have to respect the move regardless, though.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

but it's equally important to note that Mario HAS TO GET IN FIRST

I don't get this. Fireballs aren't the best projectile out there, but it ensures that Mario does not have to trivially approach Ganon. If Ganon gets within Mario's range, he's screwed. This pressures Ganon to space all of his attacks especially since he has no approach options that are safe on shield, and he can't punish approaches on shield as well due to his terribly-ranged grab. Mario can RAR Bair on Ganon's shield and retreat so that Ganon cannot easily punish him unless power shielded. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Ganon has one on Mario.

Regardless of how you try to go about this, the fact remains that Ganon is actually the one who must approach unless he has a stock lead.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't get this. Fireballs aren't the best projectile out there, but it ensures that Mario does not have to trivially approach Ganon. If Ganon gets within Mario's range, he's screwed. This pressures Ganon to space all of his attacks especially since he has no approach options that are safe on shield, and he can't punish approaches on shield as well due to his terribly-ranged grab. Mario can RAR Bair on Ganon's shield and retreat so that Ganon cannot easily punish him unless power shielded. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Ganon has one on Mario.

Regardless of how you try to go about this, the fact remains that Ganon is actually the one who must approach unless he has a stock lead.

It's so easy to deal with fireballs if you understand how they work.

Mario in the first place can't ever approach using fireballs. This is easily covered by N-air on reaction.

Ultimately Mario cannot simply bypass Ganon's better midrange options with fireballs.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

For instance, Diddy is easily the 2nd best character in the game.

I still do not fathom why you say this. I mean, Diddy doesn't even have enough results to actually show this, so at best, this is just theorycrafting. ZSS, on the other hand, has several high/top level mains besides Nairo such as Choco and ESAM's brother (forgot what his name was). On top of this, Nairo has won two nationals primarily using ZSS, so I don't understand what would make Diddy so much better at this point. Maybe in the future, but definitely not now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I still do not fathom why you say this. I mean, Diddy doesn't even have enough results to actually show this, so at best, this is just theorycrafting. ZSS, on the other hand, has several high/top level mains besides Nairo such as Choco and ESAM's brother (forgot what his name was). On top of this, Nairo has won two nationals primarily using ZSS, so I don't understand what would make Diddy so much better at this point. Maybe in the future, but definitely not now.

Because aside from our dominant Sheik mains, SoCal actually has a few people who play Diddy and do decently. While ZSS basically accomplishes almost nothing in my region.

And seeing what Diddy can do in a tournament setting has me convinced that you simply cannot overrate the best ground game in Smash 4. Aside from Sheik being really good against it.

 

[miniada]

A2ZOMG I don't think fox is bad for mario ryu idk but I can see it in Mario's favor. I agree with rosa and mk being hard. However I think dk and mk who you mentioned are the only real MUs you need to worry about As Mario.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

What about this: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...hbros_monthly_voted_tier_list_results/cwat9k8

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2ZOMG I don't think fox is bad for mario ryu idk but I can see it in Mario's favor. I agree with rosa and mk being hard. However I think dk and mk who you mentioned are the only real MUs you need to worry about As Mario.

I actually played a good Fox and...I think it's bad. Fox players just have to be more precise about their juggles.

It's favorable for Mario if they don't know how to frame trap because then you can shield all day and body him with grab combos and B-throw. But once they know how to convert random hits into generic juggles leading into autopilot frametraps...Fox clearly comes out ahead especially since he's better in neutral.

Fox is an insanely stupid character...though he's still terrible if he's at a stock deficit.

Ryu only has minor problems securing the kill extremely reliably vs Mario but he wins neutral. Similar top mobility specs, but generally way better moves in neutral.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Because aside from our dominant Sheik mains, SoCal actually has a few people who play Diddy and do decently. While ZSS basically accomplishes almost nothing in my region.

So your main reason is because he does better in YOUR region? Maybe you should look more on the national scale because that's where character potential is really put to the test (though regional results also matter).

 

[miniada]

What about this: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...hbros_monthly_voted_tier_list_results/cwat9k8

I don't think reddit is the best source. They think mario loses to bowser.

 

[HeroMystic]

I don't get this. Fireballs aren't the best projectile out there, but it ensures that Mario does not have to trivially approach Ganon. If Ganon gets within Mario's range, he's screwed. This pressures Ganon to space all of his attacks especially since he has no approach options that are safe on shield, and he can't punish approaches on shield as well due to his terribly-ranged grab. Mario can RAR Bair on Ganon's shield and retreat so that Ganon cannot easily punish him unless power shielded. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Ganon has one on Mario.

Regardless of how you try to go about this, the fact remains that Ganon is actually the one who must approach unless he has a stock lead.

The problem with fireballs is the cooldown is so long. They're good vs low level players, which is where stuff like fireball spam works, but they're mostly used to provide some stage control, and cover your landings. But if you notice, almost every high level Mario player uses fireballs very sparingly in neutral and that's because they're so slow. I believe the FAF (First active frame) after a fireball use is 53. That's almost an entire second of you just pushing the B button. Doesn't help that every fireball can be power-shielded on reaction.

That isn't to say fireballs should never be used. In fact I would say Marios need to use fireballs more, but the fact that you can't act quickly after a fireball makes their use rather limited. This is in stark contrast to Brawl where fireballs were essential to high level Mario play where they actually do help you approach.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So your main reason is because he does better in YOUR region? Maybe you should look more on the national scale because that's where character potential is really put to the test (though regional results also matter).

National scale is boring because it's always the same people who win. Not actually a lot of character influence until you go a bit lower in the rankings. Very rarely you get rare upsets/odd matchups from players like Nairo and ESAM and then some MM making top 8 I guess, but other than that I don't like judging nationals due to how player dominated results mostly are.

Regional results imo are a better indicator of overall character health/viability, though there's weird stuff like Minnesota where their top players are a Ganon and a Kirby.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

HeroMystic Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[MarioMeteor]

The point is Mario doesn't get to U-smash Ganon's landing for free which also means Mario can't play as aggressively to catch Ganon's landing as he would some other heavies. Then obviously, Ganon is also heavy enough to take that risk and not die at comparable percents.

And I think you're underselling Ganon's recovery. The lack of edgehogging and the decent vertical distance on Ganon's Up-B make him pretty decent at recovering in the majority of matchups. Mario in particular has some of the worst low edgeguards in the game, which is not hard for Ganon to beat by saving his double jump and U-air intelligently and just being ready to tech stage spikes after recovering super low. Ganon covers options more effectively than Mario and Mario's recovery is comparably predictable as Ganon's given his Up-B also doesn't go that far either.

Let's say Ganondorf doesn't recover low, he is at risk of getting neutral aired, which will probably kill him, back aired, which will probably kill him, Caped, which will him, FLUDDed, which will probably kill him, or Kobe'd, which will kill him. Exactly how does Ganondorf have more offstage options than Mario? So far you've only mentioned up air and neutral air. That's 2 to Mario's 5. Ganondorf can't afford to chase people too deep, either, because of his sorry recovery. Mario's may not be the best, but at least it's better than Ganondorf's. Recovering low won't save you from everything. There are only so many ways to recover with Ganondorf, and none of them are particularly good.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Let's say Ganondorf doesn't recover low, he is at risk of getting neutral aired, which will probably kill him, back aired, which will probably kill him, Caped, which will him, FLUDDed, which will probably kill him, or Kobe'd, which will kill him. Exactly how does Ganondorf have more offstage options than Mario? So far you've only mentioned up air and neutral air. That's 2 to Mario's 5. Ganondorf can't afford to chase people too deep, either, because of his sorry recovery. Mario's may not be the best, but at least it's better than Ganondorf's. Recovering low won't safe you from everything, there are so many ways to recover with Ganondorf, and none of them are particularly good.

Ganon will never recover high vs Mario because he never needs to. I don't see where your argument is going.

You can argue down angled F-smash is an edgeguard option against bad players who don't sweetspot the ledge. Doesn't make it relevant. Similarly, F-air Cape and FLUDD are not very relevant as edgeguard tools against players that know the matchup.

Something to keep in mind is Ganon's N-air and U-air can be used in multiple situations because they actually cover a lot of options, while when Mario throws a N-air, he can only cover a very small amount of space with it