Social Mario Hotel - Super Social 4

[Skeeter Mania]

National scale is boring because it's always the same people who win.

A really subjective thing to be honest. Many of us Smash 4 players actually enjoy watching high level play despite results being somewhat predictable (with the exception of BH5 and MLG especially).

Not actually a lot of character influence until you go a bit lower in the rankings.

Consider the fact that besides 5 Sheiks, there were 4 Marios, 3 Ikes, 3 Sonics, 3 Luigis, 2 Rosalumas, 2 Foxes, 2 Diddys, 2 Falcons, 2 MKs, 2 Ryus, 1 DK, 1 Pikachu, 1 Pac-Man, 1 Toon Link, 1 Pit, 1 Roy, 1 ZSS, and 1 Olimar in BH5s Top 32.

In MLG, we had a Mega Man and a Wario in Top 8. There's always something exciting at this level of play IMO.

 

[A2ZOMG]

A really subjective thing to be honest. Many of us Smash 4 players actually enjoy watching high level play despite results being somewhat predictable (with the exception of BH5 and MLG especially).



Consider the fact that besides 5 Sheiks, there were 4 Marios, 3 Ikes, 3 Sonics, 3 Luigis, 2 Rosalumas, 2 Foxes, 2 Diddys, 2 Falcons, 2 MKs, 2 Ryus, 1 DK, 1 Pikachu, 1 Pac-Man, 1 Toon Link, 1 Pit, 1 Roy, 1 ZSS, and 1 Olimar in BH5s Top 32.

In MLG, we had a Mega Man and a Wario in Top 8. There's always something exciting at this level of play IMO.

As I said, lower in the ranks.

And you're less likely to see those matches than the high level regional matches which are more likely to have that level of variety to represent different characters as far as I'm concerned.

Everyone might find GF of nationals hype, but it rarely says much specifically about the character rather than the sheer skill of the player, which in its own way is remarkable, but I don't think is very helpful for competitive discussion realistically.

 

[MarioMeteor]

A really subjective thing to be honest. Many of us Smash 4 players actually enjoy watching high level play despite results being somewhat predictable (with the exception of BH5 and MLG especially).



Consider the fact that besides 5 Sheiks, there were 4 Marios, 3 Ikes, 3 Sonics, 3 Luigis, 2 Rosalumas, 2 Foxes, 2 Diddys, 2 Falcons, 2 MKs, 2 Ryus, 1 DK, 1 Pikachu, 1 Pac-Man, 1 Toon Link, 1 Pit, 1 Roy, 1 ZSS, and 1 Olimar in BH5s Top 32.

In MLG, we had a Mega Man and a Wario in Top 8. There's always something exciting at this level of play IMO.

And now people are starting to worship Doc like he's Jesus himself ever since Nairo picked him up.

Ganon will never recover high vs Mario because he never needs to. I don't see where your argument is going.

You can argue down angled F-smash is an edgeguard option against bad players who don't sweetspot the ledge. Doesn't make it relevant. Similarly, F-air Cape and FLUDD are not very relevant as edgeguard tools against players that know the matchup.

Something to keep in mind is Ganon's N-air and U-air can be used in multiple situations because they actually cover a lot of options, while when Mario throws a N-air, he can only cover a very small amount of space with it

I'm saying that you've failed to explain exactly how Ganondorf has more options than Mario.
You speak as if Ganondorf's aerials are these undodgeable behemoths of moves, but they're just as avoidable as your making Mario's out to be to a smart player.

 

[A2ZOMG]

And now people are starting to worship Doc like he's Jesus himself ever since Nairo picked him up.

I'm saying that you've failed to explain exactly how Ganondorf has more options than Mario.
You speak as if Ganondorf's aerials are these undodgeable behemoths of moves, but they're just as avoidable as your making Mario's out to be to a smart player.

Mario has to work a lot harder to avoid Ganon's aerials offstage than Ganon does vs Mario's edgeguard tools.

Remember how I said Ganon's moves outrange sword characters? His N-air and U-air also linger an incredibly long time while having massive range and being fast. And they kill.

Mario...doesn't have anything nearly that good for edgeguarding. Provided Ganon didn't waste his resources, he can basically opt to go low and U-air Mario out of anything else which doesn't really require much of a read to do given how safe U-air is for defending Ganon from things above him. While Mario always has to find some way to outplay Ganon's massive hitboxes which actually can beat his low recovery.

Yes Mario has ways around Ganon's edgeguarding, but they depend more on outplaying the Ganon. It doesn't really take much for Ganon to avoid getting gimped if he simply zones out Mario's edgeguards with U-air and techs incoming stage spikes.

 

[HeroMystic]

To be fair, Doc has slowly been getting buffed as patches went on. It was only a matter of time for someone to showcase him. Didn't expect it to be Nairo though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

To be fair, Doc has slowly been getting buffed as patches went on. It was only a matter of time for someone to showcase him. Didn't expect it to be Nairo though.

Yeah and some of Doc's buffs are frankly really underrated, and most people don't understand how much they actually improved him competitively.

The F-air buffs looked pointless until you realize that not only did it make F-air safer on shield, but it gave Doc legitimate KO confirms out of D-throw.

The U-smash buff which ZeRo brushed over, basically gave Doc a pseudo F-air in neutral. A lack of good forward facing options has always been a problem for Mario and Doc, and having U-smash to cover air options in front of Doc safely is a massive deal.

I'm not really sure if new D-air is an improvement over old 3DS D-air, but it works well enough.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

A2ZOMG , I feel the point MarioMeteor was making was that a Mario that knows the MU should have no reason to get relentlessly walled out by Ganon nor should they have no idea how to edgeguard him. This also applies to the neutral game, which many people agree that Mario is just straight-up better than Ganon in.

Speaking of which, I'm curious, how many characters do you think best Mario in the neutral game?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

And now people are starting to worship Doc like he's Jesus himself ever since Nairo picked him up.

I still can't see how Doc is anywhere above B-/C+. He's definitely got that potential, but A2ZOMG and others should really give more credit to the player doing so well with him (on top of ESAM playing the set poorly). These people really are trying to overrate the character, and it reminds me of the time ESAM pulled Samus against Larry Lurr at CEO despite still losing the set.

 

[HeroMystic]

I still can't see how Doc is anywhere above B-/C+.

Considering people still place Doc at E tier, that's a significant improvement.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Considering people still place Doc at E tier, that's a significant improvement.

Dude, I don't recall anybody doing that. Who do you recall doing that?

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2ZOMG , I feel the point MarioMeteor was making was that a Mario that knows the MU should have no reason to get relentlessly walled out by Ganon nor should they have no idea how to edgeguard him. This also applies to the neutral game, which many people agree that Mario is just straight-up better than Ganon in.

Speaking of which, I'm curious, how many characters do you think best Mario in the neutral game?

I think Charizard, Fox, and Captain Falcon counter Mario, for instance by virtue of being able to actually outmaneuver Mario on the ground and having better ground moves. Then there's characters like Link and Diddy who beat Mario in neutral in a more traditional way less with mobility but more conventional walling (and better grabs). There's more than that, but those examples kinda stand out to me. Oh and DK and Rosa, who have better overall normals AND run fast.

Mario's neutral game is kinda overrated. He still has bad forward facing options and pretty low range overall, and the fact his short hop goes so high makes his jumps always a commitment, especially against characters that run fast. I mean Charizard isn't exactly considered great, but the simple fact he runs fast, has good ground normals, a KO throw, and good survivability means he probably beats Mario frankly. Mario's range is short enough that it's not exactly trivial for him to consistently space out Charizard N-airs, and Charizard's huge standing grab range + KO throw are things Mario has to be respectful of.

 

[HeroMystic]

Dude, I don't recall anybody doing that. Who do you recall doing that?

Almost everyone.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

So let me get this straight, A2ZOMG . You think that the only reasons four Marios made it in BH5's Top 32 (and one in MLG's Top 8) is because the players are so good themselves and that their opponents don't know how to play the matchup? I'm sorry, but I find your points kinda hard to believe.

And while I do think Top 5 is out of the question for Mario, Top 10 is where I would put him at this time as I feel he deserves it (I repeat, at the time).

 

[A2ZOMG]

So let me get this straight, A2ZOMG . You think that the only reasons four Marios made it in BH5's Top 32 (and one in MLG's Top 8) is because the players are so good themselves and that their opponents don't know how to play the matchup? I'm sorry, but I find your points kinda hard to believe.

Let's be real, Mario's hardest matchups are not actually the most common in tournament.

Most of the stuff I stated that's actually difficult for Mario is fairly uncommon. Diddy, Rosa and MK are all stupid good but not exactly super popular. Fox is gaining popularity but still isn't exactly very well optimized except by a small number of players. And then most of the other stuff I mentioned...barely gets played at a super high level.

Falcon actually is popular but a lot of them actually don't camp as hard as they should.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Let's be real, Mario's hardest matchups are not actually the most common in tournament.

Most of the stuff I stated that's actually difficult for Mario is fairly uncommon. Diddy, Rosa and MK are all stupid good but not exactly super popular. Fox is gaining popularity but still isn't exactly very well optimized except by a small number of players. And then most of the other stuff I mentioned...barely gets played at a super high level.

Falcon actually is popular but a lot of them actually don't camp as hard as they should.

I'm going to be frank here, aside from Rosa, Diddy, Link (to an extent), and MK, I don't think I've seen anybody who actually agrees that these are losing MUs for Mario, especially when these haven't really been proven by high level matches that I, at least, know of. You must be in a minority or something.

 

[MarioMeteor]

A2ZOMG , I feel the point MarioMeteor was making was that a Mario that knows the MU should have no reason to get relentlessly walled out by Ganon nor should they have no idea how to edgeguard him. This also applies to the neutral game, which many people agree that Mario is just straight-up better than Ganon in.

Speaking of which, I'm curious, how many characters do you think best Mario in the neutral game?

Thank you.

I still can't see how Doc is anywhere above B-/C+. He's definitely got that potential, but A2ZOMG and others should really give more credit to the player doing so well with him (on top of ESAM playing the set poorly). These people really are trying to overrate the character, and it reminds me of the time ESAM pulled Samus against Larry Lurr at CEO despite still losing the set.

Oh, make no mistake, Doc is a good character. I think he's right smack-dab in mid tier.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm going to be frank here, aside from Rosa, Diddy, Link (to an extent), and MK, I don't think I've seen anybody who actually agrees that these are losing MUs for Mario, especially when these haven't really been proven by high level matches that I, at least, know of. You must be in a minority or something.

I don't aim to have the popular opinion. I aim to contribute my opinion when I believe I see something that hasn't been mentioned.

Remember, I also have pointed out for the longest time that Mario does not do badly against Yoshi, something most Mario players didn't notice until I simply explained you have to camp more and wall him out with B-airs.

Also Mario players should perfect pivot -> Shield more. Just going to throw that out.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Ganondorf edgeguards Mario waaaaaay more consistently than the other way around. You aren't going to gimp Ganon if he DIs well and recovers low. Cape and FLUDD simply don't reach low very well, and Ganon can beat basically any edgeguard attempt with U-air if he has space to do so.

Mario cannot actually beat Ganon's edgeguards head on if he spaces them correctly, and his Up-B usually trades with and gets gimped by N-air.

...Forward air dough?

 

[A2ZOMG]

...Forward air dough?

F-air can be dodged on reaction so...it's not really a viable edgeguard.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

F-air can be dodged on reaction so...it's not really a viable edgeguard.

Pretty sure Zenyou said that it can viably combo from a down throw at decently high percentages against characters like Sheik. So it's not totally unviable.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Pretty sure Zenyou said that it can viably combo from a down throw at decently high percentages against characters like Sheik. So it's not totally unviable.

That's not really an edgeguard. That's a stage dependent KO confirm.

Actually running offstage to F-air someone isn't going to work against a good player that knows the matchup.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

That's not really an edgeguard. That's a stage dependent KO confirm.

Actually running offstage to F-air someone isn't going to work against a good player that knows the matchup.

So Anti just got those kills at BH5 by merit of his opponents not knowing the MU?

 

[HeroMystic]

So had an idea.

I'm thinking about making a challenge mode thread where Marios have to do specific challenges on For Glory or in tourney. The winner is the one that looks the most impressive or the flashiest.

This serves a dual purpose of pushing Mario's meta further by thinking outside the box, and implement some fun in this sub-forum.

What do you guys think?

 

[Xeze]

Seems interesting to me.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

So had an idea.

I'm thinking about making a challenge mode thread where Marios have to do specific challenges on For Glory or in tourney. The winner is the one that looks the most impressive or the flashiest.

This serves a dual purpose of pushing Mario's meta further by thinking outside the box, and implement some fun in this sub-forum.

What do you guys think?

Great idea (even though I'm not a member of the Mario boards)!

Just something to note: I'm new to these forums, and I was wondering how to join a specific character board (in this case, Yoshi). I may also choose to link them to this if I want.

 

[RMF]

So had an idea.

I'm thinking about making a challenge mode thread where Marios have to do specific challenges on For Glory or in tourney. The winner is the one that looks the most impressive or the flashiest.

This serves a dual purpose of pushing Mario's meta further by thinking outside the box, and implement some fun in this sub-forum.

What do you guys think?

I`m in.

 

[Macedonian]

So had an idea.

I'm thinking about making a challenge mode thread where Marios have to do specific challenges on For Glory or in tourney. The winner is the one that looks the most impressive or the flashiest.

This serves a dual purpose of pushing Mario's meta further by thinking outside the box, and implement some fun in this sub-forum.

What do you guys think?

this sounds fun as **** but im worried this would only be styling on fg noob

 

[HeroMystic]

this sounds fun as **** but im worried this would only be styling on fg noob

I could make it so it can be only applied to tournament matches or Anther's ladder. Would lower the potential amount of participants but make the challenge more legit.

 

[Macedonian]

yea! it would dope as **** if we saw which mario got the most Fair spikes every week! or Capes/fludd gaurd, Who can do the most damage from one throw.

is there anyway to have some like temporary flair for the winner to give great incentive?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I could make it so it can be only applied to tournament matches or Anther's ladder. Would lower the potential amount of participants but make the challenge more legit.

Off-topic, but how do you join Anther's?

 

[Macedonian]

go to smashladder.com and sigh up wait 24 hours for ranked matches, you can do friendlies now.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

What about NetPlay?

 

[Macedonian]

what about google?
sorry smash 4 dose not use netplay so i know nothing about it, im sm4sh only

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I actually have a question for all you lovely Mario mains/secondaries. What do you think of Mario being Top 5? Just right? Too low? Too high?

If anything, I think he's at least Top 10, but in the lower half. He's a very solid character with no major flaws or strengths. He has a very strong combo and juggle game (especially at mid %s), excellent frame data, great close-up game due to said frame data, and a very strong anti-air in up smash. Against the rest of the characters he faces in the high tiers, however, the only one I know he beats (or may beat) is Pikachu. He goes even or loses to everyone else there. He also has bad approach options, mediocre forward-facing options, lack of an aerial KO moves until beyond 150% neutral from the blast lines, lack of ways to edgeguard from below, lack of good landing options, pitiful damage output (especially outside combos), bad trading ability compounding said damage output, lack of options when forced to fight midrange, predictable recovery that I think people will get better at challenging later on, and (perhaps his biggest weakness and the one closest to major) crappy range.

That being said, his pros surely outweigh his cons, but I feel that in the future, people will get better at fighting against him (hence 4 Marios in BH5's Top 32 mainly due to people not particularly taking advantage of his character-built flaws, not even ZeRo (initially at least)), and he will drop to Top 15. But at this point, Top 10 sounds just right, but not really Top 5.

 

[HeroMystic]

He's probably like... #9 on the list at the moment.

I agree people aren't really good at exploiting Mario's weaknesses, but at the same time Mario players are really good at not allowing them to get exploited. It's a two way street when thought of that way.

Top 5 can be contended, but only because Mario has the results to back it up and that cannot be ignored.

 

[Macedonian]

So I had a lot of thoughts lately, been playing a lot.

Spoiler: Mario Meta

Sheik and ZSS are the only ones that for sure feel a tier difference stronger then Mario for me right now. And I think he would be number three if his Dair linked properly. But as it is pika, fox, sonic, Rosaluma and diddy all feel like that have just a bit more "umph" then we do. Other charachters are biting right in our heels like ryu, Ike, ness, luigi and meta knight as well.

I don't known though. Sometimes I think we will just figure it all out and find all these setups to convert to huge damage or kill. I'm speaking of setups into upB/Fair from Dair and Uair (landing with upair is godlike). All the goodies off a weak Nair like jab resets to Fsmash, or into Dair which can setup into anything. Real talk Mario's Dair is the future. You can combo into Dair for kills with up air into upB. At higher percents you can true combo into Dair. Then, if you condition them to spot dodge that, you hit them with the fair spike. Speaking of Fair there is Uair next to the ledge into Fair and down throw into Fair. Fair and upBhave this amazing synergy to them like sheiks upB and Uair, it's beautiful and unexplored. Oh man there is edgegaurding potential too. Enemies are either fourced with going low or facing the fludd. Going low we can snipe with fireball (and I believe follow the fireball out for other opportunities I have yet to pull this off consistently). We can bair, or just stand on stage and cover get ups.

Then other times I play ness/luigi and can't combo or I play donkey kong/link and I'm like How can I ever even get in. This is where I really don't know, if we actually can prove Mario can get in enough consistently to make it worth it (with things like @A2ZOM 's PPShielding or tilts, or even camp with out better mobility and fludd if we have to. We may evolve to edge gaurd ness perfectly every time. Then these type match ups are even and Mariohas a potentially top three matchup spread. I put him sixth to 8th in game when considering all factors though, including results.

Man if we had that Dair work as an airial kill move it would just feel like it would be so much more so like we did not have to work as hard for so few kill options, but hey maybe that's just our cons. All other characters could have just as significant cons, and for all we know the games perfectly balanced. Or maybe everyone in this game has bad match ups and we should all have secondary's/comains. But the cool thing is, we are not outclassed, mario is proven at the highest level, and we have a lot of room to grow.


/RANT

TL:DR 6th to 8th currently.

 

[Underhill]

I could make it so it can be only applied to tournament matches or Anther's ladder. Would lower the potential amount of participants but make the challenge more legit.

When does it start? I may try to get in, myself. Plus, I play on Anther's ladder.

 

[Annihilat®]

Okay, so I see IsmaR stole my photo.

Do you know if there's a black Zero Suit version?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Clever write-up, Macedonian , and I agree that Dair should link properly (though still be SDI-able to an extent).

 

[BSP]

Alright boys, I've decided to bunker down and relearn the man in red. Pac-Man was fun, but I think he's got some critical problems that will be the nails in his coffin once people actually learn the MU.

I've got a lot of work to do on my Mario's neutral game. Pac-Man's style completely messed it up, so it's back to the basics for me.

Stemming from that, my biggest problems with Mario are with characters that have better neutral than me or get significant reward off of winning it because I'm worse at it ATM. I need to study up on what to do vs Fox and MK especially.