Official Mario Enigma Machine [1.1.1] Patch Notes

[ReroRero]

So looking at the Dantarion changelist, Sheik herself received no significant changes outside of the universal back roll/airdodge/get up attack nerfs, and some random change to Light Arrow, but it also seems that her Needle Storm has been adjusted in some way. Do we know what happened there?

Airdodge and back roll nerf ?

 

[Ridel]

Villager is probably an ultra winner of this patch lol, slingshot just got a WHOLE lot safer on shields, same with side-b

And in turn it made Gunner's F-Air safer as well and also gives Gunner a lot more shield pressure set-ups with charge shot and missiles.

 

[Nujjy97]

My friend said Falcon's down air got buffed. Is that true since it's not listed here?

 

[redcometchar]

Seems like yet another disappointing balance patch. It really is starting to look like Sakurai can only make good fighting games by complete accident.

Oh please
Spare us

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Just as a note for Shaya on archiving the front page. " [(damage / 1.8)+3] over (damage/2.56)" sounds like one gigantic formula. I checked the comments for clarification. But for future reference "instead of" would be clearer.

Also, these changes are hype. I think making shields more risky will encourage more aggressive play. With a number of characters having aerial confirms to kill moves, I don't know how effective pseudo circle camping will ever get. But I suppose the metagame will show it's results sooner or later.

 

[Trifroze]

Despite shieldstun being increased, ZSS' dsmash is now -7 on shield (used to be -3). The frame data on the move is the same as before which means the shieldstun on it got somehow almost completely removed. A noticeable nerf to its shield safety. This may be hard to find in the data dumps but anyone with access to 1.1.0 (or prior) and 1.1.1 should be able to confirm.

EDIT: maybe active frames decreased by 4 but that should've showed up

 

[Pando]

If I'm reading Dantarion's data right (I might not be, but the framedata matches) it looks like Peach got a buff to Toad, assuming that's what SpecialN is.

IASA frame was changed from 65->63, and the active frames for the Toad counter were changed from 11-32 to 10-35

Other neutral B customs had their IASA frame reduced to 63 as well.

 

[GeneralLedge]

All they fixed with Zelda were two customs that nobody uses. Lol. So bad.

I think you have that a bit backwards. They fixed the customs because nobody used them.

Also I'm naively yet blissfully amused at how seething several people seem to be that shield lag is ending up similar to melee now.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Worth noting that all this extra shieldstun does nothing to an opponent who shieldgrabs, jumps, spotdodges, or rolls out of shield, since all of those actions can be done when shieldstun starts.

Yay, further exacerbating the problem of rolling.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Despite shieldstun being increased, ZSS' dsmash is now -7 on shield (used to be -3). The frame data on the move is the same as before which means the shieldstun on it got somehow almost completely removed. A noticeable nerf to its shield safety. This may be hard to find in the data dumps but anyone with access to 1.1.0 (or prior) and 1.1.1 should be able to confirm.

ZSS D-smash in 1.10:

20 Frame Start-up, 21 frames of lag, 41 frames total, 8 frames of opponent shieldlag, 0 frames of self shieldlag, 4 frames of shieldstun, -3 vs shield drop, -10 vs OOS.

ZSS D-smash in 1.11:

20 Frame Start-up, 21 frames of lag, 41 frames total, 1 frame of opponent shieldlag, 0 frames of self shieldlag, 7 frames of shieldstun, -7 vs shield drop, -14 vs OOS.

It might be 0 frames of opponent shieldlag and 8 frames of shieldstun, a bit hard to tell. But the shieldstun wasn't removed, it actually increased; the shieldlag was just removed.

 

[Nexelon]

Tested Ryu, he seems unchanged. I think Mewtwo's side B was changed a little that now he's able to follow up up tilt.

EDIT: His Side B can now follow up a little more easier? Side B to Side Tilt is a combo.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Worth noting that all this extra shieldstun does nothing to an opponent who shieldgrabs, jumps, spotdodges, or rolls out of shield, since all of those actions can be done when shieldstun starts.

Yay, further exacerbating the problem of rolling.

...uh...no? With shieldstun, you're stuck in shield until the shieldstun ends. You can't perform ANY actions at that point. It's why you can't drop shield against Lucario's aura sphere charge now, for example.

 

[Skiji]

So...did everybody get what they wanted with Luigi? Down-throw to Cyclone is no longer an easybake kill option. I'mma still be in the lab to see what I can do with Luigi, but only after I get some info with Charizard.

 

[redcometchar]

Tested Ryu, he seems unchanged. I think Mewtwo's side B was changed a little that now he's able to follow up up tilt.

EDIT: His Side B can now follow up a little more easier? Side B to Side Tilt is a combo.

Nope this was the case last iteration too, training mode is lying too you. M2 doesnt have frame advantage after side b

 

[Wizpiggleton]

...uh...no? With shieldstun, you're stuck in shield until the shieldstun ends. You can't perform ANY actions at that point. It's why you can't drop shield against Lucario's aura sphere charge now, for example.

you can still do this though? don't know if true for all characters.
https://vine.co/v/eQ5Yaia3VgW

 

[Fatmanonice]

So, I'm dumb and having a hard time mentally picturing the impact the changes to the shield stun will have. Characteristically speaking, who are the biggest winners and losers because I keep hearing mixed things?

 

[BlueLuxning]

To make sure I'm not stupid, did c.falcon's up-air do 10->11 damage in 1.1.0?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

...uh...no? With shieldstun, you're stuck in shield until the shieldstun ends. You can't perform ANY actions at that point. It's why you can't drop shield against Lucario's aura sphere charge now, for example.

I was actually just about to post how I thought this was not the case anymore after testing. It was about canceling shield pushback when I was testing Mac stuff a while back; my mistake.

 

[NickRiddle]

Right but I'm just wondering what value got changed for airdodge. What do 17 and 16 correspond to?

Old invulnerability vs. New invulnerability?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Old invulnerability vs. New invulnerability?

That matches up with some backward rolls but not airdodges, is the thing. Wario's airdodge is invincible from 3 to 25. I'd expect the number changed to be 23 (number of invincibility frames) or 26 (frame when invincibility ends) in that case.

 

[Darklink401]

you can still do this though? don't know if true for all characters.
https://vine.co/v/eQ5Yaia3VgW

That's Shield DI, smash DIing while in shield and being hit. hard to do before, but since you cant roll now out ofstuff like this, its easy.

 

[MachoCheeze]

So, I'm dumb and having a hard time mentally picturing the impact the changes to the shield stun will have. Characteristically speaking, who are the biggest winners and losers because I keep hearing mixed things?

IMO Ryu being even safer on shield and possessing like things Red Fireballs and a now inescapable collarbone breaker he probably benefits a lot.

 

[redcometchar]

you can still do this though? don't know if true for all characters.
https://vine.co/v/eQ5Yaia3VgW

Pikachu got hit by it, it wasnt that pikachu dropped shield.

 

[Gearitz]

How does the shield stun affect Ganons attacks does this mean he'll be harder to punish his slow attacks and since his attacks do a lot of damage does this mean he'll be viable?

 

[Ridel]

How does the shield stun affect Ganons attacks does this mean he'll be harder to punish his slow attacks and since his attacks do a lot of damage does this mean he'll be viable?

He will be harder to punish on shield, yes. Will it make him viable. Maybe. It's hard to determine at this point.

 

[GeneralLedge]

So, I'm dumb and having a hard time mentally picturing the impact the changes to the shield stun will have. Characteristically speaking, who are the biggest winners and losers because I keep hearing mixed things?

I think everyone wins in varying levels.

Heavyweights win because their single accidental smash attack on shield won't ultimately end up in them getting chained to death any more, and they can maybe follow-up or at least retreat if they goof. Hard hitting moves will naturally have a boatload more shieldstun.

Any character with rapid-hitting moves also win, for obvious chain-stun reasons. Whether or not this results in a lot of shield breaks stands tournament testing, but I think they'll ultimately break (rimshot) even.

Any character with middling or low powered hits, while still safer than before, are significantly less threatening against shield than the other two groups.

I said it previously, but Shiek may ultimately have been "hit the hardest" (in reverse??) by this. She won't get as big a reward on shield as heavy-hitters, which to me says (optimistically) that she's been "nerfed" because the game mechanics changed.

At least, in theory. Again, we need actual tournament results to get a better sense of what these changes mean for the cast; but until proven otherwise this means heavies have a much easier time approaching shielded opponents. With that said, heavy vs heavy fights will be... weird.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Since my old frame data sheet is way outdated, even for 1.10, I'm gonna be putting together a new one. The old one will still be there so you can better compare the shield numbers as I update the new one.

Currently only has Link, will hopefully have Ryu and Marth there by the end of today as well.

 

[Skiji]

He will be harder to punish on shield, yes. Will it make him viable. Maybe. It's hard to determine at this point.

So, would Charizard's Flare Blitz be harder to punish? I'd test this myself, but I'm not near my Wii U or 3DS.

 

[12.5voltSenpai]

Bowser | Wed 00:22 |

• Fireball (N-Special ?)
  • Initial hit damage increased 5% → 6%
  • Initial hitbox base 25 → 35, size 4 → 5
  • Initial hit duration increased from 15 → 20 frames
  • Weaker hit damage 3.5% → 5%, size 3.5 → 5
• Neutral Air damage on hits increased 5% → 6%

| ★

Bowser's "Fireball" is N-Special 2.

 

[Wizpiggleton]

So, would Charizard's Flare Blitz be harder to punish? I'd test this myself, but I'm not near my Wii U or 3DS.

it should be harder to punish but I doubt it'll make a difference.

 

[Ridel]

So, would Charizard's Flare Blitz be harder to punish? I'd test this myself, but I'm not near my Wii U or 3DS.

Not near mine either but I would assume it would be harder to punish in theory. It's effect are harder to determine on paper.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

If this hasn't been mentioned already, I'd like to point them out. All of the information below came from Smash 3DS, but I have yet to test them on Smash Wii U.

Rosalina

• Rosalina's multi-hit combo (the Jab) now deals either 1% damage or 2% damage per hit. Training mode states that the damage output is 1%.
• As for Guardian Luma, it now has only one hitbox that deals 5% damage, and offers mostly vertical knockback. The knockback has also been buffed, as it KO'd Mario at most Smash 3DS Omega Form stages once his current damage was at 269%.
  • However, at the 3DS Omega Form Super Mario Maker stage, Mario got KO'd by Guardian Luma once his current damage was at 253%, which may mean that the blast zones for the Super Mario Maker stage are exactly the same between the 3DS and Wii U versions.

 

[Skiji]

it should be harder to punish but I doubt it'll make a difference.

Well, it may all depend on reads then.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think everyone wins in varying levels.

Heavyweights win because their single accidental smash attack on shield won't ultimately end up in them getting chained to death any more, and they can maybe follow-up or at least retreat if they goof. Hard hitting moves will naturally have a boatload more shieldstun.

Any character with rapid-hitting moves also win, for obvious chain-stun reasons. Whether or not this results in a lot of shield breaks stands tournament testing, but I think they'll ultimately break (rimshot) even.

Any character with middling or low powered hits, while still safer than before, are significantly less threatening against shield than the other two groups.

I said it previously, but Shiek may ultimately have been "hit the hardest" (in reverse??) by this. She won't get as big a reward on shield as heavy-hitters, which to me says (optimistically) that she's been "nerfed" because the game mechanics changed.

At least, in theory. Again, we need actual tournament results to get a better sense of what these changes mean for the cast; but until proven otherwise this means heavies have a much easier time approaching shielded opponents. With that said, heavy vs heavy fights will be... weird.

Shiek doesn't need to shield as much as heavies (or anyone else) do. How do you come to the conclusion?

Shield stun being buffed makes zoning and dominant neutral games more oppressive.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I think everyone wins in varying levels.

Heavyweights win because their single accidental smash attack on shield won't ultimately end up in them getting chained to death any more, and they can maybe follow-up or at least retreat if they goof. Hard hitting moves will naturally have a boatload more shieldstun.

Any character with rapid-hitting moves also win, for obvious chain-stun reasons. Whether or not this results in a lot of shield breaks stands tournament testing, but I think they'll ultimately break (rimshot) even.

Any character with middling or low powered hits, while still safer than before, are significantly less threatening against shield than the other two groups.

I said it previously, but Shiek may ultimately have been "hit the hardest" (in reverse??) by this. She won't get as big a reward on shield as heavy-hitters, which to me says (optimistically) that she's been "nerfed" because the game mechanics changed.

At least, in theory. Again, we need actual tournament results to get a better sense of what these changes mean for the cast; but until proven otherwise this means heavies have a much easier time approaching shielded opponents. With that said, heavy vs heavy fights will be... weird.

Bowser Bomb confirmed even stupider on shield? I wonder if the rising horn bash confirms into the ground pound on shield now? Oh by the way, Dash Slash autocancel into silliness on shield. Be afraid.

 

[Forest2FP]

Sonic's Up throw has a lot less Knockback

With some characters the Upthrow, spring and some aerial needs more %, but with some not, I can't discover the pattern, but it sure has some change

 

[Flamecircle]

How does the shield stun affect Ganons attacks does this mean he'll be harder to punish his slow attacks and since his attacks do a lot of damage does this mean he'll be viable?

I believe it'll affect heavies the least, as it's a linear shieldstun buff.

The biggest winners are those with quick and weak moves.

 

[Ridel]

Shiek doesn't need to shield as much as heavies (or anyone else) do. How do you come to the conclusion?

Shield stun being buffed makes zoning and dominant neutral games more oppressive.

Cause her shield pressure is already pretty much perfect so you can't really make it any better.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I believe it'll affect heavies the least, as it's a linear shieldstun buff.

The biggest winners are those with quick and weak moves.

It's not linear though. It's scaled based on the damage dealt, with an additional slight increase to the base amount.

 

[Newbarktown]

Not near mine either but I would assume it would be harder to punish in theory. It's effect are harder to determine on paper.

I don't really think it's a theory, it will be harder to punish; it's a high damage move. Even still, it's not very safe on shield.