Mario 3.0 Matchup thread

[GMaster171]

It was mostly cause that no1fan guy wasn't playing nice, for future reference hes done this stuff before and is very obvious about it.

With Yoshi I agree with staying grounded, and camping with fireballs until you get a hold on what your opponent is doing. Yoshi cant out camp you, and eggs aren't threatening (they are one of the easiest things to PS imo). Yoshi has just as strong of a CC game as we do, and has good strings off of a throw (god that pivot grab is crazy), so be careful when approaching. Only other things I can think of is being careful on shield, with Yoshi's DJL, he can d-smash OOS (or just usmash) to catch moves that are too slow, and those moves hurt.

 

[deadjames]

Wtf why are you guys *****ing at eachother? You're allowed to have different opinions on matchups, the metagame isn't close to developed enough that anything is certain yet anyway. Well at least you're playing nice now, that's good.

So against Yoshi I think you would want to stay grounded and utilize grabs, crouch cancel and dsmash. I haven't played any good yoshis yet so idfk. You can probably dthrow cg him for a while.

If the CG does work, he can escape the with a DJC > nair, though I'm not sure if it would work at all since he's so floaty.

 

[Takeshi245]

What is everyone's take on the Mario vs. Ike match-up? I personally think it's close to even because Mario's fireeball pressure forces Ike into being wary about using Quick Draw as an approach. A fireball can lead into a free D-Smash or throw if Mario's close enough. Mario also has some solid mobility and can combo and gimp Ike pretty well thanks to his cape along with his d-throw can lead to some nasty chaingrabs/f-air set-ups. However, Ike does have his amazing range both on the ground and in the air which outclasses Mario's and can also edgeguard Mario well because of how predictable his recovery is.

That's what I have to say so far so any input would be appreciated! :D

 

[deadjames]

I'd say slight advantage Ike, but it's really close to even, for basically all the reasons you mentioned.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Someone should compile opinions and there more advanced knowledge of mario to create a rough MU chart, and then that can be debated upon to create an even better one!!,,

 

[Mr.Random]

Wtf why are you guys *****ing at eachother? You're allowed to have different opinions on matchups, the metagame isn't close to developed enough that anything is certain yet anyway. Well at least you're playing nice now, that's good.

So against Yoshi I think you would want to stay grounded and utilize grabs, crouch cancel and dsmash. I haven't played any good yoshis yet so idfk. You can probably dthrow cg him for a while.

Lol'd. I have no clue. Trying to keep this thread as professional as possible but I guess it isn't working. One thing I know is that people like me, Mr. M, and GeZ know what we're are talking about because this is a character we focus on the most and we have a ton of experience in lots of MU's. Although I am being serious about Yoshi. Haven't run into one. Really want to know if it's similar to Mario vs. Yoshi in Melee.

 

[deadjames]

Lol'd. I have no clue. Trying to keep this thread as professional as possible but I guess it isn't working. One thing I know is that people like me, Mr. M, and GeZ know what we're are talking about because this is a character we focus on the most and we have a ton of experience in lots of MU's. Although I am being serious about Yoshi. Haven't run into one. Really want to know if it's similar to Mario vs. Yoshi in Melee.

I literally gave you a whole write up on Yoshi, and several other people gave their input as well.

 

[Mr.Random]

I literally gave you a whole write up on Yoshi, and several other people gave their input as well.

Sorry. LOL I totally forgot to read page 3. I just saw page 2 and quick replied to you. Sorry bro xP

It was mostly cause that no1fan guy wasn't playing nice, for future reference hes done this stuff before and is very obvious about it.

With Yoshi I agree with staying grounded, and camping with fireballs until you get a hold on what your opponent is doing. Yoshi cant out camp you, and eggs aren't threatening (they are one of the easiest things to PS imo). Yoshi has just as strong of a CC game as we do, and has good strings off of a throw (god that pivot grab is crazy), so be careful when approaching. Only other things I can think of is being careful on shield, with Yoshi's DJL, he can d-smash OOS (or just usmash) to catch moves that are too slow, and those moves hurt.

GMaster's in the building!

 

[New_Dumal]

I know Mario is a great character but as more I play him, more I agree with deadjames.
At least about the Mario vs Marth, Roy and Ike.

It's not like the disjointed hitboxes makes them win, but ... it helps just too much.The fireball presure sure helps, but just isn't enough to stop them.
While is not hard combo Marth, is not hard for him combo you too, and Marth's/Ike combo's can kill you at end more often than Mario's combos.
While isn't a bad MU , be alarmed. NEVER understimate them (Marth especially).
It's about spacing and takes the advantages Mario has (and you already talked early) but a single error in basic stuff like DI ( something happens even in top-professional level in a fast game) can be fatal to Mario in a way is not when you don't have a long-sword man in the other side.
It's not a MU you should change you character for win, but is a very, very, dangerous one.
It's not because a char is great or is your main char, that he has no flaws.
I main Pit in Brawl and used to believe in him against everything... time and losses shows me I was wrong.

Now, about a not-discussed MU yet... What about Mario x Lucario ? I think Mario has serious advantages, but still nice to talk about it.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I already know the marth MU is piss poor horrible, aside from @ GeZ it seems no one has played a good one yet, dam shame. I personally will not discuss it any further. Unless, someone has video proof.

ranting now.

It seems like so many people on this game don't know much. I'm talking about how fighting games work. There will always be a best character, a second best and so on. Each one with strengths and weaknesses. Some will be made to counters, some will be made to be played a certain way, some will be faster, while others are slow and strong, see where I'm going with this? Like, do you guys honestly believe that practically every character has positive MU against every other character and the only negative MUs are against fox and falco?? Like seriously, when I read across the forum, more often than not, I see excessive amounts of completely blind biased. It takes a real, and or knowledgeable player, apparently, to acknowledge what a character is good and bad at now days, no offensive to some. Look, I love PM, sometimes, I put my finger in the little hole in my disc sometimes and just hold it there. Pause. But guys, learn what your characters strengths and weakness are, and accept it for what it is. Don't just say some bs like, "well if you space it right.." no. You are, an idiot, my friend. I don't know how many times I've heard that weak ass response. Spacing is not the end all beat all strat that is the key factor to succes.

IT HAD TO BE SAID

Back to the topic at hand, Lucario is easy. He has no reliable approach options, outside of down b aura chance and maybe the up B aura cancel. The only time he is good, is when he is hitting you. weak.

Also, the stupid tier list thing mentioned, is flawed as all hell.

 

[d-man2292]

mario vs everyone = mario winning lol but srsly mario is the best he's ever been in this game, he can hold his own against any, but it kinda all boils down to play styles, some say lucario is easy, well i have trouble with someone who is GOOD with lucario, some have trouble with marth, i wipe the floors with a GOOD marth player, if you're having trouble even getting to hit an enemy i suggest suppressing fireballs/pills, the hit stun gives you the opportunity to get a combo in, and if they are dodging them then wait till you see an opening, if they are shielding then dont dash attack because they could just grab out of shield, run up and grab while they're shielding, also to when you get them off the stage and they're trying to come back on, thats when you should meet them halfway and bair, thats what i do anyways and it's always worked, i'd love to hear other techniques on what you guys do, plus lets not forget that fireballs/pills do 8% damage!

 

[Scatz]

Marth has the advantage because he's able to keep us spaced out just like how it is in Melee. Fireballs are cool and all, but they're most effective when taking them onto a flat stage where platforms don't get in our way. With most of the stages having platforms in a way that Marth can use for cover, Mario has to approach extremely carefully without being overly aggressive the moment he does get an opening.

 

[deadjames]

I'd like to add that Lucario is another character that you have to be prudent about shielding against due to his command grab especially since he can cancel into it while pressuring your shield with other moves, and I've found when he's recovering it's good to wall him out with bair because it's hard to react to Extreme Speed with the cape, unless he gets predictable with his recovery.

 

[GeZ]

Yeah, the problem with the open forum format in general is that people who've won their Walgreens tournament come here and think that their experiences with characters/ MU's define the game. That's how we end up with so many completely out of left field unhelpful posts in every thread. People want to post and be a part of what's going on but they don't have any input. As it turns out the answer isn't "pretend you have input" it's "don't post until you do".

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Btw
How goes the ivy MU @ GeZ @MrM What should I do, should I space for razor leaf or does she have something with better range or maybe I should space for something else(?), what stages should I go, around what percent can I dunk her, what set ups should I worried about, how should I react to those and where should I go stage wise. I think that's all the questions I have for her.

 

[New_Dumal]

ez, you put in table exactly the advantages I think Mario has against Lucario that turns it positive to him.
Hard-timing approaching Mario and can't play camping, being hard to him confirm something into a combo, while Mario has more opportunities to attack and much better recovery/edge guard options what makes the game good for Mario in and out the stage. I think Lucario is great against characters that don't have great aerials options, not Mario case.

And when you put the second char in a game, one is better then other. Don't exist a competitive game with only neutrals MU's betwen the caracters.
I will stay a little away from the MU's discussions, more asking then answering, because I don't play in top-professional level yet.
Still, if I make some great mistake in future MU discussions, correct me.

About Ivy, the MU is soooo better after 3.0 version. The pressure with razor leaf ->Grab was annoying and stupid before.
The last thing I will say , I usually uses less fireballs against Ivy cause his grab range is too great and you hardly can use the shield pressure to a grab or a poked dash atack, being punished almost every time. Try put him out the stage always you can, as he is easy/moderate to gimp.

 

[howbadisbad]

How would Ganon go about beating Mario?

 

[deadjames]

How would Ganon go about beating Mario?

Power-shielding and mind games.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

How would Ganon go about beating Mario?

Wether it be in the zoning game or in CQC, ganon just loses. Ganon has a few things though, like, free tech chases from a flame choke, the back part of uair is great while edge guarding etc
Watch this to get a feel for what kinds of things you might wanna do as ganon or mario for the MU

Roughly one whole hour of ganon on mario 1v1 hardcore porn action

 

[deadjames]

Actually Mario's jab comes out fast enough that if he techs in place and jabs, Ganon can't tech chase him, but Ganon can still follow up with a jab of his own before Mario even has an opportunity to tech.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Actually Mario's jab comes out fast enough that if he techs in place and jabs, Ganon can't tech chase him, but Ganon can still follow up with a jab of his own before Mario even has an opportunity to tech.

You can punish techs in place. Also, ganon can not jab reset.

 

[deadjames]

True, but it's a mixup.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Wth are you talking about...

 

[deadjames]

If you know Ganon is going to chase you with another Flame Choke, than teching in place and jabbing will beat it.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

If you know Ganon is going to chase you with another Flame Choke, than teching in place and jabbing will beat it.

I wasn't talking about mix ups on my initial post nor did I allude to any, but ok. In regards to, "mix ups", Mario's jab come out at frame 3. Before then, Mario has to hit the ground and tech. I'm pretty sure Ganon has enough frames to punish him accordingly.

EDIT: I did say he gets free tech chases. I don't mean all or any of the follow ups are free, I just mean, if ganon lands a choke, said player is automatically put in said situation.

 

[deadjames]

Ganon can punish the jab, just not with another choke, which is what I thought you meant because a lot of Ganon's like to just tech chase with another Flame Choke.

 

[GeZ]

I ship deadjames and ez. Best otp.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

no
Back you go

 

[Takeshi245]

Could you guys give me any advice on how to fight against Kirby? I had a lot of trouble when I was facing a friend of mine that plays a pretty solid Kirby and I want to be able to be victorious the next time I face him.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Could you guys give me any advice on how to fight against Kirby? I had a lot of trouble when I was facing a friend of mine that plays a pretty solid Kirby and I want to be able to be victorious the next time I face him.

got vids?

 

[Takeshi245]

got vids?

I sadly do not. I'm simply asking for any match-up knowledge you all would have that I can incorporate for next time.

 

[deadjames]

Don't get inhaled near the ledge, watch out for his bair, you can't beat it, DI away from dthrow so you don't get jab reset, or utilt combo'd. That's all I can really think of.

Edit: Anyone have any advice for the Snake MU?

 

[Takeshi245]

Does anyone have any advice on how to face Wario? That character has been giving me some trouble lately. His aerial game's difficult to deal with.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Does anyone have any advice on how to face Wario? That character has been giving me some trouble lately. His aerial game's difficult to deal with.

I have some advice.
If he ever side b's, shield it, then ether wavedash OoS and punish or pivot fsmash him. Remember he can jump with this and don't try to punish it with your ground moves. For me, it's kinda hard to time fsmash to intercept it. Just nair it, if you wanna stop him in his tracks. Don't try to side step it.
If he dairs your shield, ether run away or try to hit him with a fade away bair.
Try to get a feel for when he wants to do side B and the dashing grab. The running part of them is identical, so knowing what he's doing will be key.
Fireballs **** him and like everyone else, they lead to a lot.
He has a pretty awesome grab range, watch out for it. I think his preferred grab is dthrow. He can get some good setups from it like, tech chases, side b, nair into jabs into the chomp etc
His recovery isn't very good so abuse that. If you ever force him to up B on stage, you have days to punish him.
Try not to use cape or down b to close to the stage when recovering, he can side b or bair you away and you might not come back.
Dthrow>dair is amazing on him.

 

[deadjames]

Still looking for Snake advice.

 

[Takeshi245]

I have some advice.
If he ever side b's, shield it, then ether wavedash OoS and punish or pivot fsmash him. Remember he can jump with this and don't try to punish it with your ground moves. For me, it's kinda hard to time fsmash to intercept it. Just nair it, if you wanna stop him in his tracks. Don't try to side step it.
If he dairs your shield, ether run away or try to hit him with a fade away bair.
Try to get a feel for when he wants to do side B and the dashing grab. The running part of them is identical, so knowing what he's doing will be key.
Fireballs **** him and like everyone else, they lead to a lot.
He has a pretty awesome grab range, watch out for it. I think his preferred grab is dthrow. He can get some good setups from it like, tech chases, side b, nair into jabs into the chomp etc
His recovery isn't very good so abuse that. If you ever force him to up B on stage, you have days to punish him.
Try not to use cape or down b to close to the stage when recovering, he can side b or bair you away and you might not come back.
Dthrow>dair is amazing on him.

Thank you very much, ez! I'll make sure to incorporate it in my game for next time.

 

[GeZ]

Still looking for Snake advice.

I haven't played against any very capable snake players, but from a theory crafting position I think I could help. Do you have any specific questions/ concerns?

 

[deadjames]

Idk, I played Strong Bad's Snake the other day and just had no idea what to do lol.

 

[Strong Badam]

NO ONE EXPECTS SNAKE!!!

 

[GeZ]

Well Snake is a space control character so a lot of the matchup will revolve around getting in and staying in, as well as avoiding his attempts to keep you out while also not loosing focus of what he's doing. It's a lot to keep track of but it's made up for by snakes gimpability and his relative weakness at close range. A lot of his projectiles are also cape able and his Dsmash can be plipped away with fireballs. It's a meticulous matchup, but I don't think very very hard for Mario. But I have limited experience so I'm not a hundred percent sure.

Edit: Strong Bad with the instant response to the name drop!