Mario 3.0 Matchup thread

[deadjames]

Bait and punish Nayru's Love, clank with Din's Fire, also never try to attack Zelda from above, nothing Mario has can can beat her utilt, usmash, or uair.

Edit: Another thing to note, be conservative when combing Zelda, since she's so floaty she can act of out hit stun sooner than most characters be aware of this so you don't eat a lightning kick while you're trying to continue a combo.

 

[MrM]

Can someone please tell me how to fight Zelda? I can't get in and apply pressure when she throws up the fireballs for zoning, I can't shield grab her out of that blue shield either because it knocks me back to far away and if I get knocked off stage, I have to go through all of the fireballs which leads to her throwing me off stage again for a kill. My friend plays like this with her. Anything is appreciated.

when he tries to zone you with fireballs just get ride of them by hitting them (the "blue shield" is called nayrus love) if you know its coming u can bait it and hit him with a fast fall dair to grab then u can combo with dthrow timing is important tho and idk how you having trouble shield grabbing it cause i have no problem doing so if u cant grab u have the option to fsmash as well idont think it would push u back to be out of range of that

you dont have to approach zelda if your friend fireball camps you cause u can apply pressure of your own while destroying his zoning mario can combo zelda quite well you just have to know when to not commit too much until you can pull of a finisher dmash, fair or fsmash

 

[Stryker]

I guess I will do a bit of a write up on my experiences with Zero Suit Samus, though keep in mind I'm a scrub and still learning lots, and playing against scrubbier opponents.

Firstly, unless really well timed, you can't dodge ZSS fsmash with a roll behind like the way you can punish most forward smashes. Her hit box will still rage you behind her. (This has been nice though, as it keeps me on my toes, and ensures that I don't rely on rolling behind to punish attacks, which was probably a hugely bad habit of mine.) You can block it, but due to it's large range and knock back, it puts you well outside shield grab range, and I've been told that a wavedash grab will punish it.

Secondly, getting above her is usually a bad idea due to ranges of her up special and her upsmash, but it is extra dangerous with platforms like lylat or warioware. (I swear, Wario ware was like made for her.) as she can alternate upsmash and up special to pillar you. (Which looks cool as ****, btw)

As with other characters playing against her, we really need to abuse our recovery options to sweet spot the ledge, as simply using up special to get back will usually get a dsmash>dsmash>fSmash combo directly back offstage and probably to death.

Watch for the Paralyzer + Followup as ZSS can cancel out of her fully charged neutral B into a run. This is easily countered with cape, but can be quite devastating if you don't.

My ZSS player doesn't usually followup with up airs after knocking me up, but that is a thing.
As for approaching, I find leading in with fireballs works just fine, but again, my opponent doesn't usually try to clink with them, so I'm not sure of the options ZSS has available here. Also, SH down air seems to be a good angle as it can avoid the fsmash and can be L-cancelled into tilt combo's.

Ledge guarding has been discussed briefly, but getting down to the ledge, falling away and throwing out a Neutral air should stop her from zipping in on her tether. I haven't been able to do this yet, as my opponent hasn't fully gotten the hang of ZSS recovery so there is a 50/50 chance she just doesn't tether back at all.

On a more personal note, I'm just learning wave dashing now, and it feels beast to bait out a f smash, wavedash back into a fireball, and start combos from there. :D But that's just me enjoying learning stuff.

 

[deadjames]

Good ZSS players generally don't use fsmash or usmash very often.

 

[Stryker]

Good ZSS players generally don't use fsmash or usmash very often.

If only I had some to play against >.<
I'm the only smasher competitive smasher that I know in my area, and there is literally no smash scene in the slightest. I've had to take to trying to teach my friend to play, and she latched onto ZSS right away. This means I have to deal with some interesting New Player habits, such as spamming smashes.

Granted, I'm just coming from brawl myself, and not at a competitive level, so I'm still learning too. Just thought I would share my thoughts on the matchup as this thread seemed to slow down
I'd be happy to take any advice for the matchup.

 

[deadjames]

Well other than that most of your observations are correct I'd say. I'd also add that her uair beats most of Mario's aerials, so don't be too aggressive when landing, and make sure to constantly mix up your recovery because she can gimp you with a divekick and still be safe to recover because she can jump cancel it.

 

[Tesseract9000]

when he tries to zone you with fireballs just get ride of them by hitting them (the "blue shield" is called nayrus love) if you know its coming u can bait it and hit him with a fast fall dair to grab then u can combo with dthrow timing is important tho and idk how you having trouble shield grabbing it cause i have no problem doing so if u cant grab u have the option to fsmash as well idont think it would push u back to be out of range of that

you dont have to approach zelda if your friend fireball camps you cause u can apply pressure of your own while destroying his zoning mario can combo zelda quite well you just have to know when to not commit too much until you can pull of a finisher dmash, fair or fsmash

Thank you for your reply! I'll try this approach next time.

 

[Mr.Random]

To reply to the above posts. Mewtwo is in Mario favor, Roy's in Mario's favor, Marth again is very close, Mario ****s on Luigi's approach. Zelda you need to play patient, she slows down the fast paced matches you're used to so you have to slow down as well. Also her side b and regular b are punishable.

 

[deadjames]

Roy is not in Mario's favor it's slight advantage Roy same with Marth, and Luigi is even.

 

[MrM]

Roy is not in Mario's favor it's slight advantage Roy same with Marth, and Luigi is even.

lol did u just say luigi is even
cause fireballs shut luigi down

 

[MrM]

To reply to the above posts. Mewtwo is in Mario favor, Roy's in Mario's favor, Marth again is very close, Mario ****s on Luigi's approach. Zelda you need to play patient, she slows down the fast paced matches you're used to so you have to slow down as well. Also her side b and regular b are punishable.

no point in talking to these ppl about the marth and roy mu they just dont understand how to overcome the spacing by making them approach and punish opening

 

[deadjames]

lol did u just say luigi is even
cause fireballs shut luigi down

Luigi can use his fireballs to clank with Mario's effectively causing a stale mate and giving the first person who tries to approach a disadvantage, but this is heavily dependent on stage position, and on stages with platforms Luigi can just waveland over the fireballs and be right in Mario's face to punish him and in close-quarters Luigi wins because of his superior range, but edge-guarding Luigi is pretty brain-dead for Mario.

 

[MrM]

Luigi can use his fireballs to clank with Mario's effectively causing a stale mate and giving the first person who tries to approach a disadvantage, but this is heavily dependent on stage position, and on stages with platforms Luigi can just waveland over the fireballs and be right in Mario's face to punish him and in close-quarters Luigi wins because of his superior range, but edge-guarding Luigi is pretty brain-dead for Mario.

im ending this convo with a four letter word...CAPE

 

[deadjames]

The cape doesn't win the MU, but whatever, you obviously know everything, so I don't even know why I try to give my input on MUs that I have extensive experience in.

 

[MrM]

you must lose to luigi a lot

 

[yellowdee]

I've played an extremely patient Luigi that would run up to fireballs, (power?) shield them, then roll or wavedash backward and throw out a fireball as well. If you're not careful with the cape, Luigi can can bait it out and punish you, believe it or not, with a down-b tornado. watch out for that one.

 

[deadjames]

you must lose to luigi a lot

No, I play both Mario and Luigi and I've played the MU from both perspectives quite a lot.

 

[ChristianStewarts#1fan]

No, I play both Mario and Luigi and I've played the MU from both perspectives quite a lot.

You must not be playing the mu right because mrm is right, luigi struggles against mario in every aspect. Also last time i checked (in melee at least) marios fireballs will overwhelm luigis, and they got an endlag buff. Cant be entirely positive of how things work without an accurate changelist however.

Also anyone mario loses to roy and marth is not utilizing fireballs and crouch canceling correctly.

 

[deadjames]

If you could read you'd see that I said that fireball clanking is heavily dependent on stage position, but all it takes is one clank for Luigi to create an opening, also good Marth/Roy players will beat your fireballs with fairs and good players in general will just grab you if you CC a lot. Those MUs aren't in Mario's favor much as many of you would like to believe, Marth and Roy force Mario to play an uncomfortable bait and punish game because of their superior range they can pretty effectively ignore fireballs, and their kill setups are pretty free on Mario, and Marth specifically can escape Mario's combos and kill setups very easily. Roy is closer to even since he's slower and generally easier to combo, but he still has a slight advantage imo.

 

[Mr.Random]

Patience is one of the easiest ways to win with Mario. He has a lot of neutral match ups and no terrible ones like in Melee. Which isn't a bad thing, in fact it's good because it shows how balanced he is and every character should have close to even match ups. A patient Mario is a good Mario.

 

[deadjames]

That is untrue Mario still has all the same bad MUs as in Melee, they're all easier, but still unfavorable, aside from Sheik and Falcon which are now even imo, Ganon which is now in Mario's favor, and Roy and Zelda which are now in their respective favors. He still struggles against Fox, Falco, Peach, and Marth, as well some new characters such as Ike and ZSS.

 

[ChristianStewarts#1fan]

If you could read you'd see that I said that fireball clanking is heavily dependent on stage position, but all it takes is one clank for Luigi to create an opening, also good Marth/Roy players will beat your fireballs with fairs and good players in general will just grab you if you CC a lot. Those MUs aren't in Mario's favor much as many of you would like to believe, Marth and Roy force Mario to play an uncomfortable bait and punish game because of their superior range they can pretty effectively ignore fireballs, and their kill setups are pretty free on Mario, and Marth specifically can escape Mario's combos and kill setups very easily. Roy is closer to even since he's slower and generally easier to combo, but he still has a slight advantage imo.

Lol wtf am i reading. All of this rambling sounds to me like someone who is very inexperienced and never truly became proficient with any of the marios in melee. For example luigi will not be able to convert off of a fireball clank (especially if mario is the first to begin spamming. His own fireballs will be overwhelmed and fighting through it leaves him open to counterattack. Jumping is unideal) luigi already has a weak approach that leaves him vultnerable and wavedash has a slow start up making it a subpar tool to close gaps and attack through openings. Any attempt to ftilt through can be shielded and on the off chance luigi manages to break through (due to poor spacing of fireballs on marios part) he has no notable combos on floaty characters to punish. Luigi also has weaker movement outside of platforms, more easily edgegaurd able recovery and has worse spacing tools. Marios fsmash disjoint is also tricky for luigi to overcome.

As for marth and roy, marth was already extremely manageable in melee provided you were playing doc. Doc was capable of gimping marth fairly easily, and could muscle his way into marth (or out of marths approaches) through smart use/spacing of pills and crouchcanceling. As long as you use pills marth will have to nair/fair through them and as long as he does that you can crouch cancel his attacks. Also you shouldnt ever bring up grabs when it comes down to character matchups because all grabs are beatable. Doc has the tools to beat any of marths options, you just need to predict accordingly. In pm fireballs are more potent which can force more retreats and repositions from marth than before, not to mention the better angle for stage control and standardized hitstun to help make followups possible. Mario has more combo extenders than before, can convert into a combo off of a crouch cancel, gimps better, recovers better, and has more kill moves (both docs fair and marios fsmash). Mario has no bad matchups and has the tools to beat anybody, his bad matchups were overrated in melee because 90% of smashers are scrubs and cry about everything, which is why we see people think falcon and now peach and marth are too weak for nationals. Btw whoever told you ganon beats mario knows little about the game lmao

 

[Mr.Random]

That is untrue Mario still has all the same bad MUs as in Melee, they're all easier, but still unfavorable, aside from Sheik and Falcon which are now even imo, Ganon which is now in Mario's favor, and Roy and Zelda which are now in their respective favors. He still struggles against Fox, Falco, Peach, and Marth, as well some new characters such as Ike and ZSS.

No not really. You can take it from me. I had a ton of experience with online players. He's a great character with no huge flaws. I don't think the lack of range is as big a problem as people make it out to be. Mario can hold his own vs. EVERY character in this game. And Peach, Marth, Ike, and ZSS are not bad match ups at all. Fox and Falco are but Mario has the tools to deal with them.

 

[MarioKing0522]

im ending this convo with a four letter word...CAPE

I second the cape!

 

[deadjames]

I give up on you all.

 

[ChristianStewarts#1fan]

I give up on you all.

Not like you were helping anything in the first place, baddie. Maybe now youll stop spreading your lies.

 

[Mr.Random]

Anyways let's discuss a match up I haven't experienced yet. Yoshi. How is Mario vs. Yoshi? Haven't run into a Yoshi yet

 

[deadjames]

Well I have actual tournament experience in the Yoshi MU too, but I shan't be sharing it because you clearly already know everything about Mario.

 

[ChristianStewarts#1fan]

Well I have actual tournament experience in the Yoshi MU too, but I shan't be sharing it because you clearly already know everything about Mario.

No amount of pm yoshi experience or pm tourney wins could ever prove to me that any mario especially a pm one could rival my skill in mario. There are barely any that come close in melee to begin with. So unless youve played and succeeded with pureblood melee mario against legit top tier players and have legitimate experience against legitimate melee yoshi, then i truly dont believe i have anything to learn from you as i have done all of the above and mastered 3 seperate characters (luigi mario doc) along with very solid secondaries.

But anyway since deadjames is being an edgy rebellious loser, @mr random id say yoshi plays very similarly to other intuitive characters like dk and mario with a few exceptions for his gimmicks. As long as you understand what these are and how to beat them you should be fine with fundamentals.
His minor ones are the possession of a command grab in his neutral b that can grab you while he is airborne, so its not always safe to shield on a platform if you see him coming up to you. While its relatively easy to mash out of an egg, no one appreciates being egged off stage and it puts you into a bad situation. Avoid being reckless towards yoshis near the ledge. His eggs can intercept recoveries if youre not careful with them, and requires a bit of mix ups on your part. His parry works similarly to spot dodging in that its great if you use it at the right moment but leaves you open if you mistime it. Yoshis best movement is on platform stages contrary to mario which should make counterpicks and bans important. Yoshi now can use his eggroll as an effective horizontal recovery option but it should be fairly easy to intercept if you predict it. His double jump has armor, just like bowsers super armor and he can tank hits and retaliate with aerials. This can be difficult to edgegaurd as he can jump through your attacks. However if he double jumps at a moment where you arent preparing an attack, you can wait out the armor and hit him afterwards, just give him a little space since his double jump propels him a lot forward. Also if yoshi grabs the edge you should just let him keep it, his eggs should be keeping him there for a while. Caping them might be useful however, but i havent worked with that too extensively.

 

[MrM]

No amount of pm yoshi experience or pm tourney wins could ever prove to me that any mario especially a pm one could rival my skill in mario. There are barely any that come close in melee to begin with. So unless youve played and succeeded with pureblood melee mario against legit top tier players and have legitimate experience against legitimate melee yoshi, then i truly dont believe i have anything to learn from you as i have done all of the above and mastered 3 seperate characters (luigi mario doc) along with very solid secondaries.

But anyway since deadjames is being an edgy rebellious loser, @mr random id say yoshi plays very similarly to other intuitive characters like dk and mario with a few exceptions for his gimmicks. As long as you understand what these are and how to beat them you should be fine with fundamentals.
His minor ones are the possession of a command grab in his neutral b that can grab you while he is airborne, so its not always safe to shield on a platform if you see him coming up to you. While its relatively easy to mash out of an egg, no one appreciates being egged off stage and it puts you into a bad situation. Avoid being reckless towards yoshis near the ledge. His eggs can intercept recoveries if youre not careful with them, and requires a bit of mix ups on your part. His parry works similarly to spot dodging in that its great if you use it at the right moment but leaves you open if you mistime it. Yoshis best movement is on platform stages contrary to mario which should make counterpicks and bans important. Yoshi now can use his eggroll as an effective horizontal recovery option but it should be fairly easy to intercept if you predict it. His double jump has armor, just like bowsers super armor and he can tank hits and retaliate with aerials. This can be difficult to edgegaurd as he can jump through your attacks. However if he double jumps at a moment where you arent preparing an attack, you can wait out the armor and hit him afterwards, just give him a little space since his double jump propels him a lot forward. Also if yoshi grabs the edge you should just let him keep it, his eggs should be keeping him there for a while. Caping them might be useful however, but i havent worked with that too extensively.

I'll ditto you any day

 

[MrM]

Well I have actual tournament experience in the Yoshi MU too, but I shan't be sharing it because you clearly already know everything about Mario.

btw its one thing to have experience but if you are giving out the wrong info its meaningless

 

[deadjames]

I've yet to give any wrong info, you guys just seem to think that just because a MU is winnable that makes it even.

 

[ChristianStewarts#1fan]

@ MrM Hmmm normally i would 100% accept any and all challenges but unfortunately mario dittos are truly terrible fireball and cape spamfests with no skill or combos, and rival snake dittos in being straight up silly. (Anyone saying they want prof vs rolex will soon regret it). Although i do respect dedication above all things, and if youre willing to come down to texas for whobo 6 just to mario ditto me then i gladly accept. Ive already been confirmed to attend that brawlfest in order to embarress my rival and archnemesis oracle and strong bad (A friendly rivalry unlikely deadjames who is a fat nerd). If youll be willing to come ill play you there, if not then i suppose we have nothing better to do than compare mario **** sizes (fyi mines bigger)

 

[yellowdee]

Why do people think spam fests take no skill? I thoroughly enjoy them, especially how PM has the tendency to make spamming more viable. If you're smart, you can turn-around B many approaches and keep your eyes super-peeled for any twitch the opponent does. If you have your spacing down, you can cape the projectile, and even double cape reflected ones for 1.5^3 times more damage/hitstun, following up into an extra melee. Brings sort of a platforming aspect to the game that originally made smash stand out from other fighters :D

Also, DeadJames has good stuff to say. Don't try to put the smackdown on 'im just because he may or may not be wrong about his overall matchup opinion (50/50, 40/60 and the like) Look into some of the validity behind some of the points. Ask him to elaborate more details into why he thinks a Peach matchup is still unfavorable, etc.

You always want to take information from ANYONE here with a grain of salt, especially around frontiers like these!

I also would recommend refraining against throwing out your overall score (matchup and personal skill-related opinions) here. That tends to inspire a flame war. Just discuss specific aspects of specific matchups alone. That keeps everyone focused on improving via golden nuance nibblets.

Here's an example:
It is possible for Yoshi to survive a dthrow->fair combo at high percents by double-jumping and gaining some strange pseudo-super armor at the last fraction of a second. Consider going straight to nair or bair, as it comes out earlier, possibly just early enough to score a decent-sized hit that'll throw Yoshi for a loop.

 

[deadjames]

Well in light of that I guess I will give my two cents on the Yoshi MU. Imo it slightly favors Mario, but here's some things to be aware of:
-Be conservative when combing Yoshi, he can abuse his subtractive armor to escape being juggled with rising aerials, this also means that dthrow to fair doesn't work reliably on him, so you'll have to get creative with your kill options
-Yoshi likes to use side-b as an approach mixup, but it has very little priority so many things you can throw out will clank with it or just beat it outright.
-The most effective way to edge-guard Yoshi is to footstool him, it's pretty much a guaranteed kill unless he recovers really high
-Be prudent when CCing in this MU, Yoshi's dtilt sends you at a weird angle and if you CC it, it will put you in a horrible position, iirc it kind of has similar properties to Pika's uair in that it doesn't really have knockback growth, but it just sends you at a fixed angle.
-Be cautious when pressuring Yoshi's shield, his OoS game is ridiculous and he can punish you really hard if you overextend yourself while pressuring him, he can DJC OoS into literally whatever he wants.
-Make sure you sweet-spot when you're recovering or you'll eat a dsmash, it might even hit below the ledge, but I'm not sure. I'd recover high whenever you feel it's safe just in case.
-Be aware of Yoshi's command grab, don't sit in shield for too long especially not on platforms.
-Eggs are obnoxious, don't worry about trying to cape them though, Yoshi uses them to force situations more than anything, just don't let him bait you.

 

[yellowdee]

Never thought of footstooling that otherwise difficult-to-deal-with recovery. I gotta try that!

As per your points on baiting the eggs, I think if you're far away (safe) enough, caping eggs (backwards for more space/style points) is a fantastic mindgame to play on a Yoshi. The egg bounces back in the same trajectory! Toss a fireball into the mix, and maybe your opponent will think twice about throwing eggs. Second-guessing opponents give you the edge!

 

[deadjames]

That's true, I was more speaking about when recovering. A lot of times Yoshi will toss eggs to try to steal your jumps, but if you cape them that gives him the perfect opening to meteor you with his fair which will put you in an even worse position, and yeah fireballs are great in most MUs and the Yoshi MU is no exception to that, and I totally encourage experimenting with footstools, I find it to be a very under-utilized option, from what I've noticed Mario can't get a whole lot of mileage out of it compared to characters like Peach, ZSS, Wario, or Diddy, but it's definitely really useful in the Yoshi MU. Personally, I use Y to jump so I set footstool to X because it's much more comfortable than using the d-pad.

 

[MrM]

@ MrM Hmmm normally i would 100% accept any and all challenges but unfortunately mario dittos are truly terrible fireball and cape spamfests with no skill or combos, and rival snake dittos in being straight up silly. (Anyone saying they want prof vs rolex will soon regret it). Although i do respect dedication above all things, and if youre willing to come down to texas for whobo 6 just to mario ditto me then i gladly accept. Ive already been confirmed to attend that brawlfest in order to embarress my rival and archnemesis oracle and strong bad (A friendly rivalry unlikely deadjames who is a fat nerd). If youll be willing to come ill play you there, if not then i suppose we have nothing better to do than compare mario **** sizes (fyi mines bigger)

Im too busy to make it down to tx atm first chance i get i will def try to make a trip down there (im in CA) as for the mario ditto i can combo the **** out of mario can stop your fireballs all together thats no problem so there is no worry about "spam" so how can u say there is no skill when in the end the player who knows the character best will win

 

[MrM]

Well in light of that I guess I will give my two cents on the Yoshi MU. Imo it slightly favors Mario, but here's some things to be aware of:
-Be conservative when combing Yoshi, he can abuse his subtractive armor to escape being juggled with rising aerials, this also means that dthrow to fair doesn't work reliably on him, so you'll have to get creative with your kill options
-Yoshi likes to use side-b as an approach mixup, but it has very little priority so many things you can throw out will clank with it or just beat it outright.
-The most effective way to edge-guard Yoshi is to footstool him, it's pretty much a guaranteed kill unless he recovers really high
-Be prudent when CCing in this MU, Yoshi's dtilt sends you at a weird angle and if you CC it, it will put you in a horrible position, iirc it kind of has similar properties to Pika's uair in that it doesn't really have knockback growth, but it just sends you at a fixed angle.
-Be cautious when pressuring Yoshi's shield, his OoS game is ridiculous and he can punish you really hard if you overextend yourself while pressuring him, he can DJC OoS into literally whatever he wants.
-Make sure you sweet-spot when you're recovering or you'll eat a dsmash, it might even hit below the ledge, but I'm not sure. I'd recover high whenever you feel it's safe just in case.
-Be aware of Yoshi's command grab, don't sit in shield for too long especially not on platforms.
-Eggs are obnoxious, don't worry about trying to cape them though, Yoshi uses them to force situations more than anything, just don't let him bait you.

good post you can also go out for a cape read on his 2nd jump forcing him to sideb if they go high then u can just cape the side b Ive been using footstooling for a while now myself its my fav to do on yoshi cause it reminds me of super mario world(sacrifice yoshi to live) bair also is good to stop his recovery when edgeguarding him

 

[Gallo69]

Wtf why are you guys ******** at eachother? You're allowed to have different opinions on matchups, the metagame isn't close to developed enough that anything is certain yet anyway. Well at least you're playing nice now, that's good.

So against Yoshi I think you would want to stay grounded and utilize grabs, crouch cancel and dsmash. I haven't played any good yoshis yet so idfk. You can probably dthrow cg him for a while.