Make Em' Pay (a counter attack "game")

[BurtonEarny]

Alright, so as promised here is a thread that Ive seen done before and really apreciate it. The idea is I'll give a situation and you have to come up with a way to counter that particular problem. The best solution or two get quoted in the OP... Nothing is particularly wrong, but some ways of countering are more right than others. If you have a particular situation and want it discussed, then pm me and ill get to it in the order I recieve them, but be aware that you cannot participate in the gamethat time. If at the end, your situation is better than the one we have selected, then tell us. Okay so with nothing more to discuss really... on to the first situation:

Situation 1:
Im D.K. and we are at battlefield, I am using a wall of shbair and fast falling on the bottom platform. If you shield the move and aproach me I will imediatly use a ftilt. Punish me.
Winner:

U can use flame for defense.
Up-b out the shield, NUFF said.

Situation 2:
Im an ic main and I have flawless desyncs. Im going to alternate using squal hammer(sideb) and Blizzard(downb) in a sideb, sideb, downb, downb order, short hopping everytime. you cannot grab, otherwise you will be hit by the others attack... Punish me
Winners:

if they try to infinite grab you stay at a decent distance away(bc if they are a good IC them will always try to dodge grab you) and thats why you space and ftilt but don't rely on that to save you because very soon they will catch on and instead use the nuetral b spam to get you frustrated then take advantage of your aggressiveness and begin to shield grab you so in short just stay on your toes and don't lose sight of your goal

There are multiple options:
Short hopping is a part of all options like onii said.
Use the Flames to stop the de-sync momentarily and to rack up damage.
Use the infinite jump to confuse the iceys and take your chance to grab one of them and accordingly to separate them so you are saver from the Side-B+Down-B combination.

Situation 3:
You are on FD and Im a spam happy falco. Ill be using the lazyflector on you the greater part of the match. Anytime you sh at me I will jump and toss my reflector at you spamming laser as you walk up to me. if you get within hitting range I will use side b to try to get past you and repeat. Punish me.
(Credit to -Zure-... he gets to sit this one out)

 

[WarriorKnight]

U can use flame for defense.
Up-b out the shield, NUFF said.

 

[Rashid]

I've never been in a situation like that and I have a hard time imagining it, so I'm gonna say either a SH'd Fire breath or just his neutral A.

**** it, I need to get some live experience with Bowser. =[ Too bad I live on the other side of earth compared to other smashers. =/

 

[Hobobloke]

curse u WarriorKnight beating me to the thread

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Jump and use a well timed side b. Or try to jump behind him using the infinate jump thing and side b him. Bowser gets like some kind of 00ber armor if you time it right.

 

[S_B]

When someone posts "King Dedede has you in an infinite grab." this thread will end abruptly.

...Unless the response is "Punch the D3 player in the head."

 

[Admiral Pit]

WarriorKnight won this one. I'd probably would have said Firebreath only.

 

[Cyndi]

Fire breath, definitely.

 

[Shade487z]

There's no reason for me to restate the obvious, but Fire breath is where it's at!

 

[BurtonEarny]

Alright, well glad to see that people enjoy the idea. If this one was a little easy then I can post a more difficult one in the next day or so, also... pm me if you have a good situation. thnx

 

[Hobobloke]

Alright, well glad to see that people enjoy the idea. If this one was a little easy then I can post a more difficult one in the next day or so, also... pm me if you have a good situation. thnx

its always good to start off easy but maybe a little bit harder next time and yeah i think u can post the next one now i think we can all agree WarriorKnight won this one, and that we found the best option.

EDIT: I think if someone gives you a scenario you should credit them. and that they shouldn't answer. Because most likely if you have suggested it you probably have a solution (and a good one at that).

 

[BurtonEarny]

its always good to start off easy but maybe a little bit harder next time and yeah i think u can post the next one now i think we can all agree WarriorKnight won this one, and that we found the best option.

EDIT: I think if someone gives you a scenario you should credit them. and that they shouldn't answer. Because most likely if you have suggested it you probably have a solution (and a good one at that).

Gasp. were you saying i would not credit someone?! jp
Anyway, Ill put it in the op Pm me and Ill credit you, However... you wont be allowed to participate in the next scenario. Next one going up in just a bit.

 

[NickRiddle]

Situation 2:
Im an ic main and I have desyncs down. Im going to alternate using squal hammer(sideb) and Blizzard(downb) in a sideb, sideb, downb, downb, short hopping everytime. you cannot grab, otherwise you will be hit by the others attack... Punish me

Flame-breath or ftilt the first squal hammer...Or maybe full jump over them, and reverse klaw them apart from each other...Then **** Nana and make it easy.

 

[onii-chan]

Situation 2:
Im an ic main and I have flawless desyncs. Im going to alternate using squal hammer(sideb) and Blizzard(downb) in a sideb, sideb, downb, downb order, short hopping everytime. you cannot grab, otherwise you will be hit by the others attack... Punish me

the best thing to do in that situation(IMO,course) would be to just space and mindgame...soon after the IC should be confused a bit and will make stupid mistakes and that is the time to strike...i usually up-b across stage and seperate them and throw one off the stage...and then contiune to punish the other on the stage for damage...or depending if it is the actually human player and not the cpu i would fire breath the edge so they are force to use their up-b to recover and usually a ftilt would do it

 

[Crzy]

Couldn't you jump over the hammer and Bowser bomb them *******s before they can Blizzard? After the SideB's they'll pause to blizzard, then you're free to Bowser bomb them, or use Dair to separate them.

 

[onii-chan]

no because the blizzard has multiple hits and the bowser bomb would just be rendered useless and would have you end up in a huge mess

 

[Crzy]

lol And my lack of IC experience shines. XD

I was facing one this morning but he kept trying to infinite grab me.

 

[onii-chan]

if they try to infinite grab you stay at a decent distance away(bc if they are a good IC them will always try to dodge grab you) and thats why you space and ftilt but don't rely on that to save you because very soon they will catch on and instead use the nuetral b spam to get you frustrated then take advantage of your aggressiveness and begin to shield grab you so in short just stay on your toes and don't lose sight of your goal

 

[-Zure-]

There are multiple options:
Short hopping is a part of all options like onii said.
Use the Flames to stop the de-sync momentarily and to rack up damage.
Use the infinite jump to confuse the iceys and take your chance to grab one of them and accordingly to separate them so you are saver from the Side-B+Down-B combination.

 

[onii-chan]

nicely put zure...lol i like to give pretty detail examples of what to do

 

[Cyndi]

Nice, Zure!

 

[-Zure-]

Can we say we need a situation 3 yet?

 

[onii-chan]

the original poster hasn't edited his first post to include the examples for situation 2 yet

 

[BurtonEarny]

Alright... sorry to keep everyone waiting. I had originally intended to make this a weekly thing, little did I know it would be a three times a day thing... If you would like to continue at this rate we may need to come up with a different system. Anyway, just tell me who to quote(zure or onii-chan seem to me to deserve it) and in the mean time I'll be thinking of another situation.

 

[Hobobloke]

woah talk about fast i completely missed this round, you people and your diferent timezones probably were discussing while i was asleep *squints eyes*

 

[-Zure-]

If Onii doesn't insist on getting the quote, you can give it to me.

@Lord: *cough* I am German *cough*
I am awake when you aren't...unless it's weekend.

Note: *suggest a very spammy Falco*

 

[Bowser King]

There are multiple options:
Short hopping is a part of all options like onii said.
Use the Flames to stop the de-sync momentarily and to rack up damage.
Use the infinite jump to confuse the iceys and take your chance to grab one of them and accordingly to separate them so you are saver from the Side-B+Down-B combination.

That's a good answer. I think this would work.

 

[BurtonEarny]

Alright new situation is up... have at it.

 

[onii-chan]

it doesnt really matter to me...we both had pretty much said the same thing he just put it in a shorter format


situation 3:

this situation is a really dependent one...this could be a scrub campy falco or a good falco (you didn't specify) so i guess i will put two answers

scrub falco:

being that they probably got that idea from watching a video on youtube or something...the chance are they haven't prefected this gayness...so if you have a good idea of what they are gonna do, watch for there mistakes like side bing too much...this is were it gets good...move in for the kill after you have shielded or power shielded some lazers and Fire Breath into a up b...this should set the tempo for anything you want to do


the good falco:

this is gonna be a lot harder to accomplish and probably lead to you getting frustrated, don't get angry you will do stupid things and get severely punished for it...so the best thing to do is to keep a cool head and do what i said to the scrub falco but don't move in for the kill just yet...because you will leave him with the opition of side b or reflector...keep the rythmn goin and you will find out which one he/she will always use (trust me if they are good them probably won't use the reflector to push you back). this gives a bit of an advantage, although do not get to happy yet the hard part is about to come soon they will notice what you are doin and most likely go for the chaingrab>dair kill so be prepare to either ftilt or up b...this are your friends and use them well...the rest is up to your jugdement and the mistakes they make

 

[-Zure-]

T_T I am not allowed to participate in round 3. Make me proud onii-chan!

 

[Hixxy]

[Power] Shield walk or Infinite Side-B (better) as an approach and then fast fall into a shield followed by an F-Tilt. Chances are that they are they are near the ledge, so, if you have time/space, you can set up a fire stream to rack up some extra damage (Falco is easily gimped should they attempt an Up-B, and Side B does not go through Bowser's flames).

 

[-Zure-]

[Power] Shield walk or Infinite Side-B (better) as an approach and then fast fall into a shield followed by an F-Tilt. Chances are that they are they are near the ledge, so, if you have time/space, you can set up a fire stream to rack up some extra damage (Falco is easily gimped should they attempt an Up-B, and Side B does not go through Bowser's flames).

You forgot Falco's defense with the blaster and illusion.
Onii-Chan summed it up nicely although I don't think Falco is going to let you do B-into-Up-B.

 

[onii-chan]

hence me saying to only do it against the scrub falco

 

[Hixxy]

You forgot Falco's defense with the blaster and illusion.
Onii-Chan summed it up nicely although I don't think Falco is going to let you do B-into-Up-B.

If you shield the reflector, his lag gives you enough time to Ftilt him before he can do anything. Also, if he is using Side-B, then it's a different story, and is not part of the given scenario. That said, if he is using Side-B, chances are that you will just jump over him and he'll be beneath you, which is where he wants.

If this happens, you should fast fall an air dodge to the ground. Several things could happen after that: either he runs away (likely with retreating lasers), grabs you, uses an aerial (most likely Dair), or dash attacks you. Respectively, you should follow the previous approach, Jab/Ftilt, or Shield. Note that if he uses a non-retreating aerial (anything other than Dair), you need to make sure to grab him/Up-B Out of Shield, or else you'll be in a bad spot.

If he short/full hops the Side-B and misses, the situation is the same as a grounded Side-B, except you are closer to the ground. If he hits, you should be spiked into the ground, and will be near him on the ground. Depending on the distances of his landing in relation to your height and the timing of his dash, you should be able to Ftilt him.

Falco's laser is little more than a nuisance unless you are nearby, since I assume that the Falco in question is Full Hop Double Lasering. In this case, you can full hop your Infinite Side-B with an air dodge (although you can still be hit by a laser, it decreases your chances of being hit). You should also mind you spacing so that you are not being stunned close enough that he can retaliate before you recover, as Falco's grab will hurt.

Also, another thing that I forgot to mention was double jumping and air dodge above Falco and Standard-B to catch him in the flame being an option. You can definitely be punished for this, but it will do a fair amount of damage to Falco and likely have him off of the ledge (assuming that it is fully charged).

 

[onii-chan]

like i said i left up to the players own judgement...i give them a basic structure and left the rest for the to incorporate their playing style they won't have to completely change the way they play its as simple as that...the way you put is for the to change the way they completely play to something different

 

[-Zure-]

I found the explanation accurate enough. Of course the D-Air is always forgotten. If you jump over Falco's illusion, why not use D-Air to bump Falco away? The reflector doesn't have enough range to get near Bowser after that and a crappy spamming Falco wouldn't even get the idea to chain grab Bowser. Let's assume it's a skillful Falco who just happens to love spamming. You still manage to jump over the illusion. So why fast fall and aerial dodge? You could just use the Koopa Claw to inflict direct damage while taking Falco near the edge throwing him off the stage.

 

[WarriorKnight]

Scenario 2: Flame, up-b outta sheild, jab fakes into up-b, and u can also run into them then up-b and retreat, down-air is goood too.

Scenario 3: Calm mind.
When spamming occurs either jump around them or sheild. Do occasional backrolls as well. Falcos side-b can be canceled, punished or neutralized with the flame, up-tilt while having your back turned to falco. Down-air is also good to space them away. And my favorite is downsmash, it ***** them. For the downsmash one to work, u have to know the move is coming so you have to do it b4 he even does his down-b.

Peace.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Run at him powershielding the lasers and block his Side-b when he does it and then go punish him with a dash grab or tilt or w/e your in range to do. Jump fire, f-tilt whatever you got time to do.

 

[Flayl]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but the shield won't come up during the initial animation of the dash so you won't be able to dash and perfect shield falco's lasers.

 

[Cyndi]

^Never worked for me. I always got slammed trying that.