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Mafia Barhouse Sleepover: "Hey Town, drinks are on me!"
- Thread starter Rockin
- Start date
@Nix re-Gheb: well then 50% chance your investigation results would be worthless because the target would be dead.
@Nix: why does it still seem odd? And if it were an abductor or kidnapped, why would it say that OS is dead? "murdered?" instead of "missing" or "kidnapped?" Think things through...
@Nix: why does it still seem odd? And if it were an abductor or kidnapped, why would it say that OS is dead? "murdered?" instead of "missing" or "kidnapped?" Think things through...
Deadline has been set for June 11, 2010 11:59AM EST.
It's takes 6/11 to lynch!
Gheb_01: (0)
Junglefever: (0)
mentosman8: (0)
Nix2100: (0)
Riddle: SummonerAU, Tom, Steel, Gheb_01 (
)
Ronike: (0)
Steel: (0)
SummonerAU: (0)
Tom: (0)
Virgilijus: (0)
Not Voting: frozenflame751, Junglefever, mentosman8, Nix2100, Riddle, Ronike, Virgilijus (
)
It's takes 6/11 to lynch!
Day 2 Vote Count 1:
frozenflame751: (0)Gheb_01: (0)
Junglefever: (0)
mentosman8: (0)
Nix2100: (0)
Riddle: SummonerAU, Tom, Steel, Gheb_01 (
Ronike: (0)
Steel: (0)
SummonerAU: (0)
Tom: (0)
Virgilijus: (0)
Not Voting: frozenflame751, Junglefever, mentosman8, Nix2100, Riddle, Ronike, Virgilijus (
Ronike
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 612
I really don't like Tom right now. His comment about "not losing anything" strikes me the worst. For those unaware, one of toms main balancing criteria is the number of mislynches town gets, which in a 15 person game can be quite low. Tom, you oughta know full well that if we kill riddle and he's town, then we kill summoner who may be town as well and get two mislynches for the price of one. Plus I'm suprised everyones discounting the possibility of framers.
That being said, riddle still feels like a good lynch to me, just the way it's going about feels off.
That being said, riddle still feels like a good lynch to me, just the way it's going about feels off.
Do you expect to kill Riddle, find he is town, then kill Summoner, and find he is town?
I specifically mentioned the possibility of a framer. Why are you saying everyone is discounting them?
"Not losing anything" = Riddle does not contribute anything but attract attention in discussion, and he claims no power role.
You are fine with the lynch, but you are not fine with the lynch?
****ty post Ronike!
I specifically mentioned the possibility of a framer. Why are you saying everyone is discounting them?
"Not losing anything" = Riddle does not contribute anything but attract attention in discussion, and he claims no power role.
You are fine with the lynch, but you are not fine with the lynch?
****ty post Ronike!
SummonerAU
Smash Lord
In response to the claim, I don't think I could have led a Riddle lynch well. I also don't have to mind**** myself with the possibility of it not being an accurate report.
Why Riddle? I picked someone randomly out of the people I wasn't leaning town. I don't have a particular reason for picking Riddle.
Why Riddle? I picked someone randomly out of the people I wasn't leaning town. I don't have a particular reason for picking Riddle.
Wow, L-1 within like hours? Guess given the situation it's not that odd, but everyone should speak up before we get a lynch.
Summoner's claim actually seems relatively in place for me. His reasoning leaves some to be desired, but in the situation claiming like he did makes some sense.
btw, nobody hammer just yet please, let's get some opinions on the board before we lynch
Summoner's claim actually seems relatively in place for me. His reasoning leaves some to be desired, but in the situation claiming like he did makes some sense.
btw, nobody hammer just yet please, let's get some opinions on the board before we lynch
Virgilijus, can you explain everything about your restriction, including all you know about what happened to it? Also, what can you tell me about your character in their series? Are you a villain?
also
unvote
unvote
Did this seriously go unnoticed?Oh, and thanks to whomever took away my restriction (was fun though)
Is like legit or are you just ****ing around? Were you actually restricted? If so, how the **** did Tom know that you'd be posting like that before you even posted once in the game?!
True.
heh.
what do you think is happening?
do you think that summoner is scum, and therefore os was a cop and got janned? do you think that summoner is town, and you are an untold miller? do you think that you were framed? do you think that he is insane?[/quote[ Though this is a good question to ask Riddle...
wtf is this horse****? Never expected to here this from you, someone who I thought recognized the difference between INTENTIONALLY bad, scummy play, and simply not ideal town play. Just because someone might rather do something that isn't "best" town play, doesn't automatically make them look bad. Not really sure why you decided to adopt this new mentality.
lol. Really? Might want to at least explain what was so bad about the post if you want me to take you seriously.
VERY good question, one I was actually thinking about before I even came back and checked the thread again. Its a VERY gambity play IMO, and not a likely one. What do you think Tom? I think everyone needs to talk about this question since it's very possibly reality of what's going on right now.
Yes, I am. Are you serious? Are you trying to contest that you and Steel have more connections that we could learn from knowing your alignments than someone like Riddle?
I'm not saying it was an unreasonable investigation, I'm saying it was not the best choice and that's why I'm skeptical. As I said, Steel and Tom have a LOT of connections to other players at this point in time and knowing either of their alignments would give us A LOT of info about other players. How can you possibly think Riddle compares as a good investigation target in that regard? The job of the cop isn't to investigate people who just haven't gotten a ton of attention or are fresh replacements, their job is to gather info about players that the TOWN CAN LEARN THE MOST FROM, i.e. people with lots of connections! It's like being able to lynch someone and get their flip without them dying, but obviously no where near as certain because of **** we've already mentioned like paranoia, insanity, framers, etc.FoS Frozen / Nix Summoner investigating the replacement of an inactive player (not to mention that Riddle wasn't really active himself) is a perfectly legit move and the lack of input from both players is good enough a reason for that investigation. Why are you trying to discredit it like that?
Tom is playing EXACTLY like Eor was in that one game where he was scum, tried to set up some "amazing" plan, and when the town didn't go along with it, he **** bricks and got erratic. His play and attitude changed drastically for a good handful of posts. He then came back later and claimed he was drunk when he was posting and we all bought it and bit the bullet for doing so.
Tom's attitude has taken a complete 180 turn here and it's making me very uneasy. Either he's still riled up about getting flak for the whole chibo lynch or he's doing and saying stupid **** as hasty scum trying to get a tunneled lynch and ride the gambit out.
I'm gonna go over Riddle/Meno again (admittedly there isn't much) and reconsider the legitimacy of that investigation.
I want to hear Steels thoughts on Tom, Summoner, and Riddle ASAP.
EBWOP:
And to clarify the first question, how the **** did Tom know you'd be posting in a nonconventional manner before the game started, not that particular restriction in particular because I don't recall him indicating that.
Still, Tom calling a restriction like that is mad sketchy.
Though this is a good question to ask Riddle...
And to clarify the first question, how the **** did Tom know you'd be posting in a nonconventional manner before the game started, not that particular restriction in particular because I don't recall him indicating that.
Still, Tom calling a restriction like that is mad sketchy.
Reading FF's post I remembered, Tom brought up a very good point that if OS was cop, it's a very gambity play for scum to claim like that. Especially when they could save it till endgame when it's more useful. I doubt it's the situation because it's just an extremely risky, and pretty weak play for scum.
Nix2100
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2009
- Messages
- 0
FF in case you missed it http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10429652&postcount=463 is when Virg made a comment about his restriction being lifted....at the start of day.
Nix2100
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2009
- Messages
- 0
Also, its possible that Summoner (if he is scum) didn't have the OK From his mafia buddies. From personal experiences (Disney Pop-Stars Mafia) in the past I know that it is sometimes hard to get a hold of Summoner and we acted on our own without each others approval when it came to who we would kill at night.
But its still a huge risk.....that combined with Riddles name claim makes me feel slightly confident in the Riddle lynch.
But its still a huge risk.....that combined with Riddles name claim makes me feel slightly confident in the Riddle lynch.
Tom: I'm Wendy O. Koopa, vanilla townie. At first I thought since I was a villain character that I could be miller and not know it, but once Chibo flipped that pretty much blew it out of the water (KevinM's flip beating the dead horse).
For the restriction, I actually requested before the game that Rockin should give me a cool posting restriction (since I had a lot of fun with Rafiki in Disney Mafia). However, he didn't (cause he's a poop head) so I gave myself a haiku restriction for fun. I actually wasn't going to seriously use it until OS went crazy on me and from there I decided to ride it out until/if he died (granted, I still thought/think he was town, I was just doing this for my own entertainment). So the visit in the night was whoever visited him; have no idea who they are though.
Frozen: I have no idea what you are talking about in terms of Tom "knowing" my restriction before I posted it? What post are you looking at?
Also, my Mafia is a bit rusty and I have to go look up what the **** a janitor is (you kids and your metric ton of roles).
For the restriction, I actually requested before the game that Rockin should give me a cool posting restriction (since I had a lot of fun with Rafiki in Disney Mafia). However, he didn't (cause he's a poop head) so I gave myself a haiku restriction for fun. I actually wasn't going to seriously use it until OS went crazy on me and from there I decided to ride it out until/if he died (granted, I still thought/think he was town, I was just doing this for my own entertainment). So the visit in the night was whoever visited him; have no idea who they are though.
Frozen: I have no idea what you are talking about in terms of Tom "knowing" my restriction before I posted it? What post are you looking at?
Also, my Mafia is a bit rusty and I have to go look up what the **** a janitor is (you kids and your metric ton of roles).
*Facepalm* That's the exact thing that FF quoted in his post, I'm pretty sure he knows that>_>
Can you point out where I called he would have a restriction before he posted? Either way, he posted with a similar restriction in Disney Mafia and loved it. I assumed that in this game, his restriction was self-imposed. However, he has since said that it was an imposed restriction and that someone removed it. This is why I have asked him to go into as much detail as possible.
He wouldn't look bad as in scum. He would look bad as in he is chastizing me for doing something when he provides absolutely no alternative, and when I ask him to provide one, he simply says he doesn't know. That looks bad as in bad play, not bad as in scummy. I didn't say he looked scummy; if you inferred it, I did not imply it.
Maybe after you have posted some more...
I think that it would be bad play. Absolutely not worth the attention that Scummoner would draw to himself fake-claiming, risking a knee-jerk lynch of his own after we would have lynched Riddle if he is town.
The only way I see the gambit benefiting scum is if OS is janned cop, and Scummoner claims cop with a guilty on Riddle, and Riddle is actually guilty, and Scummoner busses Riddle and rides to victory on it claiming roleblocked the rest of the game. The proper course of action for us is still to lynch Riddle and then see what happens next. If this is what is happening, which I doubt, Scummoner would slip up sooner or later anyways and we would lynch a mafioso anyways - so that would be the only gambit I see worthwhile for scum here, and its a bus on Day 2 which isn't actually too beneficial for them.
I expect Summoner is town and Riddle is scum and this is just legit.
I don't see myself as the best choice for investigation because I see myself as a prime choice for a night-kill target. They don't go hand in hand because, as you can see why OS/KevinM are not prime investigation targets, they died and an investigation on them would be worthless. I consider myself on the same level as them. I'm not contesting anything about connections.
I stand that the job of the cop is to provide as many investigations as possible that are still pertinent as the game winds to a close. This means that your investigation targets need to be alive still, or you may be in Day 3 with only one live inno.
"That one game?" Can you be more specific?
Can you cite specifically where my gameplay has taken a 180 degree turn, and how it has?
You compare me to Eor in some game and say how he went nuts, and you say that I have taken a turn and am riled up. What **** am I saying to try to get a tunneled lynch? Is that tunneled lynch on Riddle? How am I trying to get that tunneled lynch when I have unvoted him, after Nix put him at L-1 when I told him not to? I placed him back at L-2, and I have stated that I think we "should take our time today," word for word. What gambit would I be riding out, a possible janitor gambit?
I feel as though you are arguing against me in a way that is absolutely impossible to defend when you mention some comparison to Eor and then begin to drift away from actual quote or citations or specifics in my play. That is like what you did to me in Macman's Vengeful-5man mafia when you were scum, you argued against me in a way that was psychological and not evidence-based, completely on meta and what you thought "i was thinking" or what could be my possible motivations. I feel a similarity here.
And then when you state that you think I am rushing a janitor gambit, well...
1) I was the first to mention a possible janitor
2) I was the first to mention a framer
3) I unvoted the wagon when it got too close to a lynch too early
4) I stated we should take our time
5) I asked questions to the lynch suspect
I don't see why you can say I am trying to rush things nor can I see how I would be working the gambit.
I wish you hadn't role-claimed. I would have accepted a name claim though I was not pushing for one... I just asked if your character was a villain, because of the sample role PM on the first page talking about bad girls and your actions towards Chibo. Why you claimed Vanilla Townie with no pressure I don't know but I wish you hadn't because that just provides scum with more information on who to shoot to hit a PR. Seems jumpy.
Can you re-explain to me what you are talking about when you say "the visit in the night, whoever visited him, etc.?"
Also, didn't you specifically say that someone took your restriction away?
A janitor is someone who makes the mafia kill and hides the role and name of the target from the town, and can then use it to safe claim.
Whoa, ****, miss read name claim as role claim too; my bad
The "visit in the night" was a little jab at whomever visited OS. Yes, I still think OS is town but I told myself I'd keep the restriction until/if he died. In terms of visiting him I have no idea. This is what I meant by taking my restriction away; whoever killed him let me (well, not really since I let myself, blah blah blah) take the restriction away.
About janitors: I see. That said, need to reread today knowing what a janitor is before chiming in my opinion.
The "visit in the night" was a little jab at whomever visited OS. Yes, I still think OS is town but I told myself I'd keep the restriction until/if he died. In terms of visiting him I have no idea. This is what I meant by taking my restriction away; whoever killed him let me (well, not really since I let myself, blah blah blah) take the restriction away.
About janitors: I see. That said, need to reread today knowing what a janitor is before chiming in my opinion.
Ronike
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 612
@Tom: I'm on my phone, whaddya expect? That said, I repeat myself: I agree with the lynch, but i don't like thr way it's happenin.
And about the framers, yes you brought it up, but notice where conversation currently lies: in janitors and false claims.
@frozen summoner ain't a janned false claim. There's just no
way day 2. Framed or crazy, maybe, but not the most likely scenario, which is why I agree with the lynch.
@Virg: The fact that you dropped your restriction is more than slightly odd to me and is duly noted, especially as you were coming under flak for it at the end of d1.
@summoner: I didn't miss any of your post.
And about the framers, yes you brought it up, but notice where conversation currently lies: in janitors and false claims.
@frozen summoner ain't a janned false claim. There's just no
way day 2. Framed or crazy, maybe, but not the most likely scenario, which is why I agree with the lynch.
@Virg: The fact that you dropped your restriction is more than slightly odd to me and is duly noted, especially as you were coming under flak for it at the end of d1.
@summoner: I didn't miss any of your post.
FoS: FF
I have no idea what got into you; you're picking things out of Tom to go crazy on (crazy defined as using all caps at some point) that just aren't there. You said he is playing like Eor and went crazy "did a complete 180" when he is playing essentially the same as Day 1. Your posts make very little sense to me as town unless you a cc cop or something, but you're not so what the hell.
Summoner: you just picked Riddle randomly from the pool of people you thought were scum, eh? Who else was in that list? Any flavor in the results?
Steel, what say you? You've been quiet save your lynch vote. Feels to me like you are trying to sit as far back away from the spotlight as possible.
I have no idea what got into you; you're picking things out of Tom to go crazy on (crazy defined as using all caps at some point) that just aren't there. You said he is playing like Eor and went crazy "did a complete 180" when he is playing essentially the same as Day 1. Your posts make very little sense to me as town unless you a cc cop or something, but you're not so what the hell.
Summoner: you just picked Riddle randomly from the pool of people you thought were scum, eh? Who else was in that list? Any flavor in the results?
Steel, what say you? You've been quiet save your lynch vote. Feels to me like you are trying to sit as far back away from the spotlight as possible.
Ronike
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 612
Oh, and since we possibly have a Jan, I think a mass nameclaim is in order, especially since the randomness
of rockins names to roles kinda kills the downsides.
Note: saying no to this without giving reasons is gonna elevate you to the top of my lynch list as I fail tomsee downsides
of rockins names to roles kinda kills the downsides.
Note: saying no to this without giving reasons is gonna elevate you to the top of my lynch list as I fail tomsee downsides
If you have time, look up Disney Mafia and maybe you'll understand that I like playing with restrictions. The flak I got was mild (I think the most votes on me I ever had at a time was one and it was from Steel, the guy who was #2 on the lynch parade).
I did enjoy it, but it is limiting. If it was going to attract attention the entire time though (unlike Disney Mafia, where weird roles were more accepted) then it would benefit town to drop it. I would have earlier but, at OS's staunch attack that it made me useless, I decided to stick it out for his ride. Personal decision, yes, but that's what it is.
But I didn't ask you to name claim, either.Whoa, ****, miss read name claim as role claim too; my bad
I initially thought that you meant that your posting restriction was real, and someone visited you and used a night action to remove it. I understand what you mean, now, but it seems odd both in diction and in motivation.
I feel as though the discussion is fine; it should focus more on janitors and false claims rather than framers, because we have basically confirmed a janitor while we just have the normal "framer jitters."
I don't understand this. A name-claim won't do anything if the mafia/SK have safe-claims except give the mafia more information about the town. What if one character is a female investigator by flavor? Or a female doctor? What do you mean by no downsides - did you not consider these possibilities? I am saying no.
Ronike
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 612
I don't understand what you mean Tom, but if it's about flavor backing up roles, game 1 I was samus, the theif, game two I was random fighter chick roleblocker. Neither made much sense in flavor, so I don't see it as too much of a stretch if they don't in this game either. And even if they are, what was thr last villanous/****** chick that you could attribute doc or cop to? I can only think of one and it's not from anything rockins familiar with or xiivi.
Rockin didn't give safe claims and janitor to mafia, we gave him too much he'll for that last game. But even if they are, I still say we are better off.
Rockin didn't give safe claims and janitor to mafia, we gave him too much he'll for that last game. But even if they are, I still say we are better off.
SummonerAU
Smash Lord
When I said nottown, I was trying to shorten "people I didn't think were town" so that would include neutrals and scummies. There were few (read: lots) others in the pool. There wasn't any flavour in the results just a blah <name> blah <result>
This is also @ Virg too, I messed up. I got my chronology wrong. This was the post I was referring to:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10339688&postcount=55
Where you (Tom) said this:
I misremembered you as having made that post and said that without Virg having posting in a manner that is indicative of having a restriction, thus, I thought you knew from the start that he would be restricted in some way, whether it was voluntary or a real one. Which is why when Virg was trying to say (albeit poorly) that his restriction had been "lifted" because OS died without explaining that at all and used this language to do so:
It set alarms off in my head immediately.
Now that all that nonsense is cleared up though, I rescind my previous statements on the matter.
If the bolded was truly your intent then it makes more sense. The way you decided to word it though definitely came off as if you were trying to imply scuminess though.
Ooooooo a trap, I can't wait!
Good analysis. Definitely a viable option and a distinctly strong option for such gambity play, if we assume the whole thing is a gambit to begin with. To make things clear I agree that a gambit is a much less likely scenario than Summoner being legit, but pressure still needs to be applied to see if anything comes up that would suggest otherwise.
I don't buy this. Why do you think you were a prime target for an NK? Plenty of connections, controversial play near the end of day 1, championing the final quick push for the death of a townie, etc. I don't see you as being a prime NK candidate at all. You'd certainly fall under scrutiny today for the events of late D1 and NKing you would be handing the town a lot of connection info to work with. Furthermore, as far as I can tell, you've done nothing to overtly imply you're a PR.
So why exactly do you give yourself "prime NK target" status?
OS started out rowdy but as we agreed on D1 a lot of his content was just bickering over gameplay issues, not actual scumhunting. Not a lot to be learned connection wise from a flip there. Even if there was, and the mafia (assuming they're responsible for the Jan) wanted to off him, they did a good job of preventing us from learning much by virtue of the Jan itself.
KevinM was very quiet day 1. Not inactive or anything, but not particularly well connected.
Considering how they both went out they make sense as NK choices. You however, don't fall into that category.
Considering we're both saying the same thing about cops just in different ways, (i.e. they need to maximize the amount of info they can generate for the town in the late game) you by prioritizing maximum living clears in the late game, and me by prioritizing scum hunting tips you can get from any alignment revealing reports regardless of the game stage (considering the risk of an un claimed cop just getting offed by uncontrollable forces anyway), I don't think our analysis of the job of the cop differs, and as such, still puts you as a strong investigation candidate.
Yep, went back and found it. South Park Mafia II, hosted by thedocsalive. It would take forever to dig through the game and find the exact posts, but Eor make reference to the incident right here in a post after the game was over:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2751646&postcount=1541
Your gameplay shifted when you went into combat mode to mobilize a Chibo lynch late day 1. You went from a more cool, laid back attitude and sudden had a sense of urgency and haste that you previously did not. That attitude has carried over to D2.
When I said a tunneled lynch I meant Chibos, not Riddles. My bad for not making that wording more clear.
And yes that gambit you would ride out as scum is the possible Janitor one.
Wait so I'm scummy got talking about your intentions and your attitude just because I did it in Vengeful? Wait a minute, don't I ALWAYS argue that deciphering intentions is tantamount to playing good mafia?
Depending on how you define "defend" yourself against what I've brought to the forefront concerning your, it could be difficult if not impossible to defend against. I'm not trying to say you're definitely scum or anything because of all this, I'm just calling it into question and seeing how it rubs you. Your play is strange thus I'm going to call you out on it. You're allowed to lynch Chibo for playing weird but its not fair for me to accuse you of the same thing?
Now that I've cited what I'm referencing maybe you'll understand better at least.
Even though this entire section is complete and utter WIFOM BS, I can tell you right now that #2 is a blatant lie.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10430670&postcount=470
I mentioned framer first.
Point is, its all WIFOM and mucky because you come out swinging MINUTES after Summoner comes out with this cop claim and just slap a vote on Riddle. Sorry, but I'm not buying your "omg I was so cautious and good about it and made all of the possibilities clear" plea when your initial behavior just a straight follow the cop example with nothing resembling reconsideration until AFTER other people starting calling the investigation's legitimacy into question.
Keep trying to make yourself look like you've done more "good things" than you actually have and you'll just convince me you're scum.
Regardless, I want to hear from Steel before I decide whether or not I'm down with following the cop today.
And Virg, learn some lessons from these mistakes yeah? Be careful about your language choice and especially about what you read when people as for claims. >_<
Holy **** I got mega ninja'd.
If the flavour suggested we had like and abductor or something then maybe I'd be more sympathetic to this but I think your plan falls flat on its face just by virtue of the fact that you're trying to make information public in order to prevent it from being hidden by a factor that probably won't even work any more anyway. Thus, your plan is just basically asking for a flat out, unmotivated mass name claim which is just not a good plan.
Tom covered some other reasons why it might be a bad idea even if the Jan did have multiple or unlimited uses but yeah, not the best route to take.
Am I wrong in saying that traditionally Jans are a one shot deal? In my own experience I've RARELY seen Janitors that can Jan more than once, and even when they could it was never more than twice.
If the flavour suggested we had like and abductor or something then maybe I'd be more sympathetic to this but I think your plan falls flat on its face just by virtue of the fact that you're trying to make information public in order to prevent it from being hidden by a factor that probably won't even work any more anyway. Thus, your plan is just basically asking for a flat out, unmotivated mass name claim which is just not a good plan.
Tom covered some other reasons why it might be a bad idea even if the Jan did have multiple or unlimited uses but yeah, not the best route to take.
Hmm. Well, your points are valid, but I still disagree with a mass name claim. Chalk it up to whatever you want.
I guess I just considered myself a probable kill candidate because I have a big ego and usually fear that I'm going to die every single night.
Regardless, it doesn't matter - I'm not the one who made the investigation choice, Summoner is, and he has already explained his parameters.
When there was a day left, I hustled to get a lynch, yeah. Though I feel like I started the game that way too, and hit a lull when I got sick and tired of OS and bad discussion.
Pressure votes are not rare. Earlier, when I stated: "it is literally still the best play to put pressure on the investigation target, not the probable cop," you agreed. What is different now? I wanted pressure on Riddle, but I didn't want him to immediately be lynched. Is that so hard to see?
Maybe, I guess? I just feel as though what you've pushed against me is either wrong or contradictory to other things you said, or its nothing I can really respond to. It reminded me of Vengeful, so I brought it up.
I guess that's fair. I don't know what I've done that's strange, though, if you understand that I voted Riddle to add pressure but didn't want to see a lynch go through yet.
It's not WIFOM BS... I dislike when people dismiss anything that would make logical sense as WIFOM and therefore useless because scum could WIFOM it... that doesn't make it useless, just something for you to mull over the intentions of.
And, my mistake, I thought I was the first to mention a framer. I guess, take that one out.
Why would you not be down to lynch Riddle? Do you really think that the odds of a correct frame + mishap investigation or a janned cop who immediately claims a fake-guilty is greater than a cop just getting a guilty? Wasn't Riddle under suspicion but just off the chopping block on Day 1?
I die N1 all the time, it's pretty common knowledge. Doesn't make me a "prime" NK target as you originally stated that you considered yourself to be.
Point is, don't try to make me sound like a lunatic for being skeptical at Riddle being the investigation choice and not like you or Steel or something, when the best justification you have for that contention is your ego makes you think you'll probably be killed.
You started the game in a much more talkative manner than you did later on in D1, but you weren't playing with a distinct sense or urgency and haste. You were nudging a lot of people and just generally had good activity and motivational spirit but it wasn't an abrasive driving attitude. That's the big difference. They seem alike because both styles involve you being very active and posting a bunch, but they're different in what the activity was driving for.
It is VERY hard to see all that when you expect us to derive all of that intent from you literally posting nothing but "Vote: Riddle".
That's what I meant by you trying to make your actions out to be better than they were. You literally just slapped a vote on. Summoner came out of the gates saying "Hey guilty on Riddle lynch plzkthx" and you just went ahead and voted, as did Steel. Without clarifying at all, a blank vote like that, at least in my mind, signifies complete concurrence with the initial reasoning for the vote. So what does that mean? It sends the message that you weren't voting to just "apply pressure", and it certainly doesn't send the message "I don't want him immediately lynched", it infact does quite the opposite, considering what Summoner called for initially and you tacitly concurred to with your own vote intentions being expressly absent.
Maybe it's just because we don't play in game together very often and that's why you pointed it out, (are Vengeful and this one the only ones?) but I'm struggling to see the merit of pointing out something that happened in Vengeful and is happening here that is not exclusive to either game. You can go ahead and say I'm "wrong" or contradicting myself but I don't know where to go from there if you don't tell me exactly where the alleged contradictions are.
Point was that those intentions were distinctly NOT conveyed originally and thus were characteristic of the change in style I was talking about. Only after a call out did you take a step back and start explaining all these things, which I do understand now. Just because I understand what you want now though doesn't mean that it necessarily matches the message you originally sent.
It IS WIFOM BS but I didn't say that it was free from consideration. I was simply pointing it out for what it was, and your presentation of those things that you did offered no analysis that dealt with the intent behind those WIFOM susceptible actions.
Obviously I can mull over your intentions in doing those things, but you simply making a list of all these things that you did that you're implying are pro-town and thus aren't scummy sends the message that you didn't want the WIFOM aspect to be considered. Your initial presentation said, "hey, look at all these great things I pointed out and called for, +10 town points for me", when it should have been "hey, I did all this stuff that's pretty basic protown stuff to consider. Obviously this could be an easy way for a scum to try and score town points but thats how WIFOM works." You could have easily followed up a stance that recognizes the WIFOM in it with the suggestion to consider intent when analyzing those actions. What that does is present a clean, clear-cut WIFOM scenario to others who might not so easily recognize the WIFOM in what you did.
I definitely do not think the odds of there being a successful framing or summoner being a non-normal cop or the jan'd cop quick claim gambit being pulled come anywhere close to the chances of Summoner just being legit. It's just important for my own scumhunting to hear what Steel has to say on the matter before I endorse progressing the lynch.
The question of how suspicious Riddle/Meno was D1 is actually precisely what I'm looking into at the moment.
The Cop has the ability to make information available that remains hidden otherwise. It's by far the best possibility to get an idea on players that refuse to give us input but neither Tom nor Overswarm fall into that category - quite on the contrary. Both players are particularly known for their high amount of input in almost any mafia game. If they don't die along the way to endgame (where the cop's investigations can make the biggest difference) - something that Tom is traditionally prone to! - at least they have given us a lot of input and stances, which we can work with when it comes down to it.
You can't say that any of this applies to Riddle or inactive players in general. They are a threat to the town in endgame regardless of their alignment and the mafia has no reason to kill them either. If you go into endgame as a cop with investigation results on Tomcorpse, Frozencorpse and Kevincorpse you didn't do your job as a cop. If you go into endgame with investigation results on Riddle or anybody else who doesn't give us input and is kind of likely to live longer than Tom, Kevin et all then you have done a good job as a cop because then you can reveal information that is vital to the town's success - information that we don't have access to without the cop.
Frozen, I think you're smart enough and - most of all - experienced enough in mafia games to understand this concept, even if you die the very first night many times. Nix also plays (or used to play) epic mafia a lot where the result of the investigator can make all the difference between winning and losing. Questioning the result because of a possible Miller or Framer is obviously a logic thing to do as is the possibility of an insane cop. Even the presence of a janitor or abductor is good enough a reason to take the claim with a grain of salt. But when you start to even question him because of his investigation target - a target that makes perfect sense to investigate! - then you're trying too hard to undermine his claim.
Yes, let's not forget about Steel in between all this discussion. His stances on D1 have been more than questionable and I don't want to see him lurking out the current discussion we have.
I think it's a bad idea unless we see if there actually is a janitor. For all we know there could also be an abductor in the game and the mafia could have safe claims as a consequence. If that's the case then there's still a lot of potential risk in a mass claim while the reward is unclear.
Riddle
Smash Lord
Nix, your play seems...inconsistent. First you seem opposed to how fast my lynch was going and now you put me at L-1?
FoS: Nix
FoS: Nix
I was out last night after I posted and that's why I disappeared, not trying to stay out of the spotlight. I've read up but leaving for an all day concert festival very soon-
Frozen to answer your question@ me I think Summoner is legit and Riddle is scum. Look at Riddle's play D1 and tell me if you see anything town about it. I didn't have any problem with Summoner's investigation choice and I'm also not sure what you're getting at with Tom as i'm okay with his play.
Feel free to bombard me with questions for me to answer tomorrow evening (tomorrow is graduation so won't be at a computer until late afternoon at the earliest).
Frozen to answer your question@ me I think Summoner is legit and Riddle is scum. Look at Riddle's play D1 and tell me if you see anything town about it. I didn't have any problem with Summoner's investigation choice and I'm also not sure what you're getting at with Tom as i'm okay with his play.
Feel free to bombard me with questions for me to answer tomorrow evening (tomorrow is graduation so won't be at a computer until late afternoon at the earliest).
Ronike
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 612
Fine then, we catch abductor. How many games have we had lately that could have been won/given a lrage advantage to town if we just got over this negative reaction to nameclaiming. From what we've seen as well, only one person has claimed a hero character, and that person has a guilty on them. Doesn't that strike you guys as odd? That maybe scum doesn't have safeclaims? The Disappearing role supports this...
Trust me, this is a good idea, we will very likely catch some scum with this
Trust me, this is a good idea, we will very likely catch some scum with this
Nix2100
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2009
- Messages
- 0
Yep..I Was opposed to how FAST it was going...never said there was anything wrong with it. I was already suspicious of you from the other day and from Meno's play so that didn't really help. All I wanted was for us to actually use this day to do something instead of having a quick lynch before the day even got started.
Riddle
Smash Lord
Than what was the point of putting me at l-1?
@ronike I honestly think namesmean very little in this game. Look at it from my pov. There are 2 confirmed townies with villain names and then 1 (me, remember thIs is from my pov) that has a hero name. That could mean something (miller?) or it could just be rockin messing with us.
@ronike I honestly think namesmean very little in this game. Look at it from my pov. There are 2 confirmed townies with villain names and then 1 (me, remember thIs is from my pov) that has a hero name. That could mean something (miller?) or it could just be rockin messing with us.