Mafia and Werewolves Gamethread

[Wiisp]

Detective Mao
wait what exactly hurts? I wasn't trying to insult your play here? just making an analysis in regards to game flow?

 

[Detective Mao]

Oh, don't worry about that. I have a tendency to keep to myself a lot and focus on my own reads while forgetting to interact with others, so I usually really try to avoid doing that. I didn't take it in a bad way or anything, it was mostly a joke^^

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Aaaaa

I want to interact with Gorf and catch up on everything that's going on instead of doing my own thing

But I think I'd like to go to sleep instead

I'll be back tomorrow

well if youd like the next hour im here for you, but i totally get it~~

i dont have any problem helping you get into the swing of things! either way i think you might be taking that comment wrong, i didnt read it as a bad thing

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

uhhm i definitely saw something, I will double check what happened
in the mean time
unvote:

well, did you find that "something" you saw? or do you just want to admit you just defensively kneejerk reacted to a perceived attack on your slot?

ff you really should know better. I know you know better. So what's up with that? You thought that was a dead serious suggest to mass claim but you just breezed over it mentioning it once? More on you tomorrow - stay with me on the wiisp lynch though.

I didn't know if it was dead serious, which is why I asked you to explain. what do you mean I "just breezed over it mentioning it once?" being the only person in the game to bring attention to you saying that is hardly "breezing over" it

if your saying that was bait I get where you're coming from re: "should know better" but one or two games ago that I played in early mass claim was floated and was mostly pushed by scum (I was pushing for it too IIRC and I was scum) so it pinged for me[/QUOTE]

ff going too hard character assassination on wiisp.
I still want the Wiisp lynch but this feels personal. dislike ff

not character assassination, it was deliberate ridicule, he made it personal calling me a boomer right out of the gate so I fought petty with petty, I'm not above that ****. I didn't sign up to play a setup I'm not particularly fond of design wise just to get **** talked by some kid who thinks he's gods gift to the game of mafia

I cannot get my head around this wave of people sussing Scarlet.

I've found SR a difficult slot to sort so far, I'm wondering if people pushing the slot have meta experience they're relying on

Swiss is leaning town, but swiss reminds me of other players who play with that style as either alignment so it's not very strong.

bolded tracks with what I remember from swiss historically even though it's been basically a decade since we've played together

chaco replacing out is wack af considering he wasn't even inactive and we have slots like whyssper and 3DSninja to deal with replacing first anyway -_-

anyway I'm super busy the rest of the day, I'll try to get a re-read done before tomorrow evening narrow my preferred plays after crystalizing some reads

here's where I'm at now, not an ordered list

Not a play:

Chaco
Gorf
Swiss
Wam
Mao

Meh:
ExLight
Scarlet Rage
Eido

Can go:
3DSNinja
gellnick
Wiisp
Rhand
Whysper

 

[Eido]

gellnick How did you come to the conclusion that Rhand is confidently Town? All you've mentioned of the read is that he's done nothing wolfy. I'm talking about these 2 quotes specifically:

Not entirely sure what Swiss is doing here, imo rhand wasn't and still hasn't done anything wolfy

I'm not happy with a rhand elim, rhand is one of the few players I think I can confidently say is Town.

 

[Eido]

Rhand has felt most alive in the thread when he has been pressured. Is that normal behaviour from him?

It's concerning to me because now that he's been given space from Swiss, it doesn't feel like he's doing anything productive with it.

Rhand Did you get back to me on this?:

Mafia and Werewolves Gamethread

ok first off lemme Unvote now let's go Yeah, he took an i from my name! I had to replace it with a y instead. :) oh boy Wiisp and Whysper I'll try to not confuse you two So let's all claim now was that serious because I kinda hate this suggestion Eido - anyone with a join date later...

smashboards.com

 

[Wam]

Afternoon has been really busy but want to come back to something. There was logic behind pushing wiisp on their ff read.

Today I have been wavering about rhand and wiisp. Wondering if what I was feeling was just the culture clash. But I dont think so.

To me, it feels like a wolf going "oh wait, I need to make reads

This is how I felt about wiisp ff read. I wanted to see what was behind it and theres nothing.

Spoiler: Notes

Post with the read

Mafia and Werewolves Gamethread

Chainsawy how? Lmao speaking of painting someone scummy from nothing, literally look at the case on Rhand, that started because he didn't respond to a scum lean with a vote by claiming, "I am actually not a wolf", which makes no sense Dude has 4-5 votes on him because he placed a vote, because...

smashboards.com

Refers back https://smashboards.com/threads/mafia-and-werewolves-gamethread.511493/post-24260083
And again

Mafia and Werewolves Gamethread

Vote Count 2 Rhand - FrozenFlame, Detective Mao, Swiss Wiisp - Rhand, Wam Wam - Scarlett Rage ExLight - Chaco Detective Mao - ExLight Gellnick - Eido

smashboards.com

Mafia and Werewolves Gamethread

Wiisp, no one's forcing you to push yourself. We're all trying our best here, but continuously defending someone isn't going to lead us anywhere. That's why I told people to drop the topic. If you're town, I'd love to discuss our reads – maybe it's better if you take a break and come back when...

smashboards.com

Mafia and Werewolves Gamethread

Wiisp, no one's forcing you to push yourself. We're all trying our best here, but continuously defending someone isn't going to lead us anywhere. That's why I told people to drop the topic. If you're town, I'd love to discuss our reads – maybe it's better if you take a break and come back when...

smashboards.com

Also about face later against this post into giving town reads.

Mafia and Werewolves Gamethread

Wiisp, no one's forcing you to push yourself. We're all trying our best here, but continuously defending someone isn't going to lead us anywhere. That's why I told people to drop the topic. If you're town, I'd love to discuss our reads – maybe it's better if you take a break and come back when...

smashboards.com

Small group but no further analysis on frozen wiisps clear leading scum.

So yeah it's all paints a picture of trying to look good rather than actually hunting scum.

The only thing making me hesitate is in a game with so many lurker lynching a contributor is bad.

 

[Wam]

gellnick How did you come to the conclusion that Rhand is confidently Town? All you've mentioned of the read is that he's done nothing wolfy. I'm talking about these 2 quotes specifically:

gellnick I want an answer as well

 

[Wiisp]

no idea about what I saw yet, still haven't checked
and the boomer comment is something I say a lot, it ain't that serious

 

[Scarlet Rage]

Chaco replacing out leaves a bad taste in my mouth and makes me wonder whether my gamestate read is wrong and Chaco just didn't want to carry the scumteam. He was more active than most and VLA exists for a reason.

 

[Wiisp]

Chaco replacing out leaves a bad taste in my mouth and makes me wonder whether my gamestate read is wrong and Chaco just didn't want to carry the scumteam. He was more active than most and VLA exists for a reason.

You talking about his replacement like this leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and reading your previous answer to my question, I don't see why your vote changed. Why is Wam a good vote from your perspective?

 

[gellnick]

explain to me why everyone else is null? what specifically put me and Rhand as town
Mao is being relatively town read by everyone participating in this game, I can't fathom calling them null
They certainly exist, and are making posts
so has Gorf, and Scarlet made a case on Chaco
speaking of Scarlet

I don't recall putting you as Town, I said Eido was town.
As for Mao, I'm wary of them, since I've played with a couple players that play very similar scum games to what Mao is currently playing. Call me paranoid, but I can totally see Mao trying to pocket everyone. I've seen a lot of Town behavior from them, but it seems like Town behavior that could easily be coming from scum.
Gorf... I'm having a hard time figuring him out.
I need to look at Scarlet again in particular.

 

[Wiisp]

I don't recall putting you as Town, I said Eido was town.
As for Mao, I'm wary of them, since I've played with a couple players that play very similar scum games to what Mao is currently playing. Call me paranoid, but I can totally see Mao trying to pocket everyone. I've seen a lot of Town behavior from them, but it seems like Town behavior that could easily be coming from scum.
Gorf... I'm having a hard time figuring him out.
I need to look at Scarlet again in particular.

Woops ur right, idk what happened, but either way idk why they are there. You also have other questions from others that I would also like you to answer as well

 

[gellnick]

Woops ur right, idk what happened, but either way idk why they are there. You also have other questions from others that I would also like you to answer as well

Yep, I'm gonna read through the thread again and see if I can maybe make more sense on my reads.
I'll see if I can clarify my Rhand read first, then I'll go on to going through current nullreads and seeing where they stand.

 

[Scarlet Rage]

You talking about his replacement like this leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and reading your previous answer to my question, I don't see why your vote changed. Why is Wam a good vote from your perspective?

I don't really care if it leaves a bad taste in your mouth but I don't like being lied to. I'll call a spade a spade. There was nothing off with Chaco's activity. So why leave?

As for why Wam. Why not Wam? I wasn't townreading their posts and a reaction would help me sort the slot.

 

[Scarlet Rage]

VLA tomorrow. Dungeons and Dragons Day.

 

[Wiisp]

Lmao lied to, he stated exactly how he felt about his play here, that there was no time for real context, it has nothing to do with how "we" perceived his content, it was how "he" perceived it.

That doesn't explain anything, tell me what posts you don't like.

 

[Wam]

I don't really care if it leaves a bad taste in your mouth but I don't like being lied to. I'll call a spade a spade. There was nothing off with Chaco's activity. So why leave?

As for why Wam. Why not Wam? I wasn't townreading their posts and a reaction would help me sort the slot.

And what have my reactions told you?

 

[Wiisp]

Man I thought I was hard-headed, you managed to avoid a direct answer to my question twice, can you also send me some prior games you were in? I wanna find that MTGS game

 

[Wiisp]

I don't recall putting you as Town, I said Eido was town.
As for Mao, I'm wary of them, since I've played with a couple players that play very similar scum games to what Mao is currently playing. Call me paranoid, but I can totally see Mao trying to pocket everyone. I've seen a lot of Town behavior from them, but it seems like Town behavior that could easily be coming from scum.
Gorf... I'm having a hard time figuring him out.
I need to look at Scarlet again in particular.

But like this isn't anything Mao is doing, this is how other perceive them. If you seen a lot of town behavior there is 0 reason to state paranioa over malice, especially if you look at many of the other people in this game that have done very little

Pretty sure my vote ends up here, but I'm curious what you next post will say

 

[Eido]

Sorry, Rhand, I didn't click the spoiler in your post here:

Mafia and Werewolves Gamethread

It's fine, English isn't my first language either. I really don't think it was something you couldn't answer with a few sentences, so I'm curious as to why you're immediately making a wallpost to defend yourself.

smashboards.com

I take back that you aren't doing useful things with the space given to you. I have some questions about your reads.

 

[Eido]

I'll just quote the whole post as it's easier. Questions at the bottom:

I did a full reread. Notes in the spoiler because it would make a massive wall otherwise.

Spoiler: notes

3DSNinja
Knows the game is afoot and is not participating.

ExLight
Asks me “are you really panicking already”. It’s a rethorical question that won’t help him figure me out at all. Bad entrance.
Early contributions are at bare minimum.
In #108 the game is in full swing and he makes a particularly useless post.
Calls Wiisp scum in #116 without reasoning.
First votecount: still on his Mao RVS vote. After calling someone scum, that’s bad.
He keeps active lurking.
Takes him until page 9 to actually join the game, where his wall is kind of weak.
#369 makes me not want to lynch him. Most reads are well thought through and make sense. I don’t like the mention of an “information lynch”. I hope that’s not part of the site’s culture. You lynch people because they’re scum, not because they yield info. Not having Scarlet in the final list while having this “there’s scum in Chaco and Scarlet” thought is weird.
But overall good post and he comes to quite some conclusions that match my own worldview.

Gellnick
#133 nothing to say but says he’s watching. Purposeful lurking? I don’t like that.
#347 Is a total mindmeld. I think he’s town.

Scarlet Rage
I like her entrance. Minor mindmelds and at that point Chaco was indeed shady.
Needs to talk more and about other things.

Wam
Should be toDay’s lynch. His catch up is weaksauce, his reads go with the flow and he backpedaled on his “At least one of rhand and swiss are scum.” statement.
I’m allergic to readslists that don’t have any words to back them up. And his list ends up in putting all MTGS’ers on the bottom.

Swiss
I’m trying to approach him with fresh eyes, ignoring the too strong early read on me and accepting it as culture clash.
Still not a fan of him not interacting with my arguments against him.
Giving Eido a scumlean for random voting after RVS is good.
He says in #73 that he wants Wiisp and Scarlet to weigh in with their insight, which is the correct play here. However, when Wiisp does come with meta, he ignores it, first by calling Wiisp “Indy” and later actually ignoring Wiisp. And he holds on to his scumread of me, for example saying “knowing we have Rhand pinned” in #88. Swiss doesn’t seem interested in my meta at all.
I hate how he asks for doc protection in #90. Either he is way too full of himself for someone that said that his last game was in 2011 or it’s mediocre scum play 101 – trying to get the doc to protect scum to have free reign at Night in the killing department (with in this game the added bonus that the other team can’t kill you). Both are viable, so NAI.
The lack of game mechanics knowledge while having game mechanics knowledge is weird. How can you know that the cop and seer see the traitor but not that the traitor knows who all the scum are? It’s both in the sign ups. Is this town derping or scum faking? It can be both I guess. NAI.
Posts like #204 where he gives a sum up of bad / good post numbers and a list are pretty useless. He says “dislike Chaco” multiple times and votes Chaco, but we can only go guessing why he dislikes him.
He sort of drops the scum read on me but only on the premise that Wiisp is scum. But then he wants Exlight dead more yet votes Chaco. Very weird progress there.
#380 has more words than #204, that’s good. Surprisingly I find myself mindmelding quite a bit here.

Wiisp
Correctly sees that Swiss’s “Eido not VT” read seems to have no base to it.
I have big doubts that Wiisp ever would try to pocket me as mafia. I think he really wants me to be town because we’re both getting a lot of flak.
He clearly is experiencing the same culture clash as I am, and his suspicions / votes follow that logically.
I do not understand why Wiisp is being attacked for defending me because he wasn’t. All he was doing is saying that the specific things I got attacked for are NAI for me and that’s true. Wiisp has not town cleared me, so that whole reasoning of allowing Swiss to keep going while defending me being scummy is wrong. I’m sure Wiisp won’t mind if I get run up if it’s for reasons that aren’t NAI.

Frozen Flame
Reads my posts in exactly the same way Gorf / Swiss do. The culture clash is real.
One read of his that I don’t understand is calling Chaco obvtown in #181. All he gave is the quote where Chaco tells me to go meta Swiss and calls him town.
I hate how he attacks the player (Wiisp) instead of the play in #331.

Chaco
Offers unprompted Swiss meta, calling him legend scum player. Can be town warning us for Swiss’ strength but is a bad look if Swiss flips town.
Him telling me to go meta Swiss is something I’m not a fan of. It would make more sense if he would offer Swiss meta because he clearly has some and believes it contradicts my scumread instead of expecting me to go look for it. And he made a point earlier that we have to be wary of Swiss because he’s a legend scum player. He’s using meta both ways.
The Scarlet scum read developed as OMGUS, but it looks like Chaco doesn’t realize that’s what it is.
Chaco’s reasons for his play all make a lot of sense. If he’s mafia, he’s extremely good at explaining away his motives. Town is much more likely.

Whysper
Not a fan of the entrance. Feels a bit forced.
Nothing else. Feels like frozen scum.

Eido
Asking if Swiss and I know each other is good.
Votes Whysper, calls it random later but Whysper already did get a scumread (Gorf) so it’s not that random. Nagl
Wanting to meta swiss is NAI. I’ve done that as both alignments in the past.
His view on Swiss vs me is good in #124

Gorf
Same as Swiss: I’ll ignore the strength of his early convictions.
Has me and Whysper as early scum reads. I do agree on Whysper.
I also agree on the reasoning he gives later for scumleaning Whysper. And apparently “can die too” means “not enough for me to wanna put a vote” in his language. I’m going to have a hard time reading this slot.
He also assumes that way of play is the only / most normal way of play. Our clashing mafia view makes this game hard mode. It is the reason he thinks I look bad out of my interaction with Swiss because Swiss plays like him and I don’t. I think I’m talking myself into townreading Gorf. At the very least he seems to believe in his scum read on me.
His whole problem with Wiisp is all based on the culture clash we have in this game. Wiisp’s meta on me is correct, but he refuses to accept that and scumreads Wiisp for it.

Detective Mao
The mediator of the thread. It’s good to have one, I hope she’s town.
I like her more recent reads a lot.

Town
Gellnick
Detective Mao

Lean town
Scarlet Rage
Wiisp
Chaco
Gorf

Null
ExLight
Eido

Lean scum
3DSNinja
Swiss
Frozen Flame

Scum
Whysper
Wam

Why is Gellnick your strongest Town read above, say, Mao? This looks misplaced based on your notes.

What separates Frozen and Whysper in your list? The language you used for Frozen reads stronger than Whysper's, so I'm curious how you've separated the bottom categories here.

 

[Rhand]

I'll just quote the whole post as it's easier. Questions at the bottom:



Why is Gellnick your strongest Town read above, say, Mao? This looks misplaced based on your notes.

What separates Frozen and Whysper in your list? The language you used for Frozen reads stronger than Whysper's, so I'm curious how you've separated the bottom categories here.

The reads within a category aren’t ordered. They’re more or less the same strength.
Gellnick’s post so strongly correlated with my thoughts that I am convinced he’s town.

Whysper I am pretty much sold on. Frozen has posted things I don’t hate too, they just weren’t worth mentioning. And there is the play style clash thing. I am not entirely confident I can read him correctly.

 

[Wiisp]

The reads within a category aren’t ordered. They’re more or less the same strength.
Gellnick’s post so strongly correlated with my thoughts that I am convinced he’s town.

Whysper I am pretty much sold on. Frozen has posted things I don’t hate too, they just weren’t worth mentioning. And there is the play style clash thing. I am not entirely confident I can read him correctly.

See the problem with this kind of read, is the setup, it's a multi-table, so ya mindmelds mean less than they normally do to me

 

[Eido]

You able to go in to more detail about how Gellnick's post correlates with yours?

You have reads developed that he doesn't. Gellnick has a large block of null reads that might not correlate with yours. It's unclear to me how you're convinced he's Town at this stage.

 

[Rhand]

See the problem with this kind of read, is the setup, it's a multi-table, so ya mindmelds mean less than they normally do to me

Yeh ok I guess that if Wam and Swiss end up being one one team, there’s a chance Gellnick is on the other.
I don’t really care about that right now though. My reads are never set in stone and if he’s scum, he’ll ping me sooner or later. For now he’s after who I think are scum for reasons I agree with, and that makes him a good guy.

You able to go in to more detail about how Gellnick's post correlates with yours?

You have reads developed that he doesn't. Gellnick has a large block of null reads that might not correlate with yours. It's unclear to me how you're convinced he's Town at this stage.

First question: see above. The people he talks about are people that need to be talked about.
I don’t care that he hasn’t developed reads on everyone. He’s talking about the ones that matter.

 

[Wiisp]

Rhand
uggh fine

 

[Wiisp]

but I think he can easily be a wolf right now
if his next catch up is mediocre I can't hold myself back

 

[gellnick]

I've been reading through a bit more, and I think I can give an updated reads list.
This would be a lot easier if I could ISO...
I'll start by trying to clarify my Rhand read:
Rhand: The entire Swiss-Rhand conversation made it pretty clear to me that Swiss and Rhand are almost certainly not on the same side, unless scum is doing something crazy complex, which I doubt.

Swiss stopped interacting with me when I called him out on the post where he attacked me for (not) doing things he’s also (not) doing. How you all decide he looks better than me in this is beyond me.

Swiss just running off like that really hit an alarm bell for me as well, I'm not entirely sure why no one except me (afaik) isn't voting him.

I haven’t felt like LHF in years (if ever). This feels weird.

This really seems like a statement a Town would say, I would guess a scum!Rhand would say something to try to stop being voted, but I'm not entirely sure if Rhand cares.

Rhand - FrozenFlame, Detective Mao, Swiss
Wiisp - Rhand, Wam
Wam - Scarlett Rage
ExLight - Chaco
Detective Mao - ExLight
Gellnick - Eido

Votecount for above point.

You know how much I dislike early unprompted claims lol. Don’t.

I like this post a lot. I share much the same opinion, and early unprompted claims have led to a scum victory before.

I seriously don’t get it. English has many words.

I wholly agree.

Why say “At least one of Rhand and Swiss are scum” while what you really mean is “It’s too early to say but I wouldn’t be surprised if one of them is scum” or something like that?
Also, stream of consciousness works differently. If you post something in a stream of consciousness post and see something later that makes you doubt that, you set yourself straight.
Wam didn’t. He only backpedaled when called out.

I'm now partially convinced Rhand is my twin.

@gellcan you explain your rhand town read more?

This help?

Gellick dumbtown, if he can justify with a semblance of what he seems to think is reasoning, the Rhand town read.

I appreciate the vote of confidence, always happy to be the jester.

I don’t. I give town points for people posting my thoughts before I had them / wrote them down. It means they are looking at the game the same way I am.

Lol.

I don’t care that he hasn’t developed reads on everyone. He’s talking about the ones that matter.

I was looking specifically at the people I had as either Town or scum reads. Haven't really read much into the others, partially because I can't ISO, partially because I don't see a need atm.
I'll look at my nullreads and try to place them. Likely won't come for another few hours though.

 

[Wiisp]

gellnick
you can sorta iso here, search bar, type a name, and search by topic

 

[gellnick]

Wiisp Thanks, that makes this a lot easier.
I'll try to ISO everyone and give my thoughts on their posts.

 

[Chop Chop]

osieorb18 has replaced 3DSNinja

 

[osieorb18]

Oh my gosh! It's such a pleasure to be here! I heard that this game might be fun, and since it's one of my first mafia games ever, I'm so happy to learn. I hope you all treat me well! This looks like an amazing group of people to be in!

Rhand - Hi there, cutie, how's it going?

GTH reads without having read any of the thread:

Everyone is town and we all should (socially distanced) hug it out!

 

[Wiisp]

ohh no
osieorb18
dont hurt me daddy

 

[osieorb18]

ohh no
osieorb18
dont hurt me daddy

Nothing's gonna harm you,
Not while I'm around.
Nothing's gonna harm you,
No sir, not while I'm around.

Demons are prowling everywhere...
Nowadays.
I'll send 'em howling I don't care...
I've got ways.

No one's gonna hurt you,
No one's gonna dare.
Others can desert you,
Not to worry, whistle, I'll be there.

Demons will charm you with a smile...
For a while.
But in time...
Nothing can harm you,
Not while I'm around.

 

[Wiisp]

Chaco
Gorf
Swiss
Wam
Mao

Meh:
ExLight
Scarlet Rage
Eido

Can go:
3DSNinja
gellnick
Wiisp
Rhand
Whysper

so when exactly did Swiss move up in your reads? pretty big gap between your original thoughts and now

 

[Wiisp]

still so confused how you took a literal meme as an insult, given that nobody legitimately playing mafia is even a boomer
especially given you are part of a literal meme group
it just seems like an awfully stretched out reaction

can somebody give me a frozen flame town game?
his can go are just lazy outside me and Rhand
and Idk why I am even there, even if he doesn't like my playstyle it doesn't make me a wolf
and I am quite sure he hasn't even read any of rhand's recent posts

 

[Wiisp]

can someone like be an obvious wolf, so I can keep my day 1 streak of executing a wolf?
going strong so far, outside a certain game

 

[osieorb18]

can someone like be an obvious wolf, so I can keep my day 1 streak of executing a wolf?
going strong so far, outside a certain game

Let's eliminate Gorf so I can stop reading green text. (I kid.) Back to the catch-up.

 

[Rhand]

Oh my gosh! It's such a pleasure to be here! I heard that this game might be fun, and since it's one of my first mafia games ever, I'm so happy to learn. I hope you all treat me well! This looks like an amazing group of people to be in!

Rhand - Hi there, cutie, how's it going?

GTH reads without having read any of the thread:

Everyone is town and we all should (socially distanced) hug it out!

Osie! Haven’t seen you play mafia for a looong time.