Luigi Specific Match-up Discussion Thread (Week 4: Villager and Pikachu!)

[Greward]

^ Lmao 15-85. Just... wtf

As a guy who plays in tournament Ness, Luigi and Mega Man I think I can speak of all matchups.

First of all luigi beats Ness very solidly. Luigi is pretty much a better Ness without PK Thunder. Superior frame data, stronger combos, better approach, even better kill options. Main strength Ness does have is the fact that he can't be walled by fireballs since he can Magnet them, so don't spam fireballs. It's a standard matchup for Luigi really.

So Mega Man luigi... I see a bit of frustration from you guys (15-85 omg). Mega can't wall indefinitely anyone by using pellets, they have a huge lag after stopping shooting (28 frames actually). Just shield them. The key to beating Mega Man is understanding how pellets work.
Mega fires a pellet at frame 8 and every 12 frames thereafter. He can shoot up to 3 pellets. After shooting the pellets he undergoes 28 frames of lag in where he can walk forward, turn around or jump (usually he will jump).
Shield the pellets, go in. Force Mega Man to the ledge, then he will be forced to jump out of there or try a dash grab in.
Mega is combo fodder, he's heavy and fast faller and has no fast options to break free from combos after the rush cancel nerf. Once Luigi gets a grab in it's wonder magic time. Mega also struggles getting the kill.
Mega can kill luigi offstage by hitting him with Bair when you use the missile. If you get a missfire it's Mega who dies though. Dair doesn't work except against tornado and even then it will only sometimes work.
Fireball spam won't work on Mega since he can just pellet spam and win it.
Customs don't really help Mega that much. He will probably pick plant barrier since it's a superior option than leaf shield like always, and maybe Danger Wrap (side B that kills). Metal blade is always the best option, and probably will just go Rush as upB.
Imo luigi wins, not sure about number but i'll say 6-4. I could see even but someone saying 15-85 is utter nonsense bull****.

 

[TriTails]

I don't have much experience on the Mega MU, so I'll announce something.

School is up for me.

Which means?

Sadly. Writeups are going to be delayed till Saturday because I have a test I need to attend. Welp. Please understand. I'll have the writeups ready soon.

Not that it's THAT long of a wait.

First of all luigi beats Ness very solidly. Luigi is pretty much a better Ness without PK Thunder. Superior frame data, stronger combos, better approach, even better kill options. Main strength Ness does have is the fact that he can't be walled by fireballs since he can Magnet them, so don't spam fireballs. It's a standard matchup for Luigi really.

By standard do you mean even btw? Would've guessed no since that contradicts your first sentence.

BTW, on Luigi vs Ness:
Luigi and Ness is pretty similiar. Both likes to grab, but often times their aerials are... overlooked. Both have great grab games and aerial games.

Now the thing is. Luigi has to approach because of Magnet and PK Fire/Thunder. The former is quite easy to dodge and punish. the latter is... very player-dependent. It clashes with Fireball, but Luigi better off straight punishing Ness whenever he sees him wide open (Though, I doubt Ness will use this mindlessly). Ness' (And Lucas') F-smash is unique, it reflects things. DO NOT THROW A FIREBALL. Not when he is charging it. The reflected Fireballs go faster than you think. And Magnet heals Ness and can be roll/spotdodge/jump/JC U-smash cancelled, so spamming Fireballs is a big no-no.

SH battle, Ness can win if he spaces correctly. I recommend not fighting him head-on.

Once Luigi gets in... It's hell for Ness. But at least he is floaty, so he won't be getting trapped like Ganon or Falcon. When Ness gets a grab... it's kinda pain for Luigi. Ness' U-air is especially painful, so try to DI his D-throw by confusing him instead of picking the same DI over and over again (DI towards him, you get U-air juggles. DI away from him, you get F-air chains. Whatever takes your fancy). Ness' pummel is also absurdly fast, which means harder grab break, and easier B-throw kills. Luigi KO's Ness very well with HooHahNado and B-air off a D-throw, but Ness also KOs Luigi well with B-throw (Which kills at like 94% at the edge without rage. You definitely do not want him to face the back of you at the edge). However, unless you get PK Fire'd, it's actually can be hard for Ness to get a grab from my experience. He dashes slower than Luigi, and you can't grab in the air. However, his dash grab is faster than ours, like 1 frame faster, F7 if I'm not mistaken, and like I said, PK Fire can be fatal if we got caught in it. Ness can double his PK Fire and traps us for even longer. I know not of the solution, sadly.

Edgeguarding, Luigi does a very good job. F-air is good at interrupting Ness' loopy double jump and PKT. However, DO NOT TOUCH PKT'S TAIL! This will put you in hitstun long enough to eat a PKT2 in the face, which hurts... a lot. Just... just don't challenge the PKT2. You'll. Regret. It. Just don't.

On Luigi's recovery, Ness can mess you up with the tail of PKT, and the bolt sends you upwards, potentially putting you in a bad position as you are in questionable height whenever you can auto-cancels your aerials (F-air has 22 frames of landing lag... welp), and the tail can eat your double jump. PK Fire can also mess you up, if Nes is accurate. Take my advice, don't jump unless you are positive the fire is out, because it follows your fall. His D-air spike, but it's rather a lackuster hitbox that comes out at frame 20. B-air is especially deadly here, and it's tricky to eyes.

Ness is one of the characters I haven't been labbing much, but from what I can see from FOW vs Mr. CC, what make a threat is Ness' B-air. Be careful around it, and it can KO...

Not giving a ratio because this is my thread. But if anyone is curious... fairly even, but slight Luigi advantage can be taken... 55:45 Luigi.

Wow. I said I won't in one sentence and did it anyway in another. Great consistency, self .

 

[Greward]

@ TriTails Actually Ness and Luigi's frame data on grabs are identical except for the fact that Ness' pivot grab is 1 frame slower (so yeah, his dash grab is frame 8 like luigi's. No character in the game has a frame 7 dash grab).
It's not like Luigi has to approach, both have to. Ness ain't gonna outcamp Luigi with PK fire or thunder since they're punishable as hell.
Luigi shouldn't contest ness a lot in a SH battle, Ness should win with his Fair. Try to stay grounded. Ness doesn't really have good moves in the ground besides dash grab.
Ness' up air landing on shield should be very hard to punish, try to go for up smash instead.
When you are offstage, Ness will go for PKT and it should be very annoying for Luigi's low speed. Nado does stop it though. Watch out for Bair / Nair / Dsmash too.
Yep I think Luigi wins.

 

[MonkeyArms]

^ Lmao 15-85. Just... wtf

As a guy who plays in tournament Ness, Luigi and Mega Man I think I can speak of all matchups.

First of all luigi beats Ness very solidly. Luigi is pretty much a better Ness without PK Thunder. Superior frame data, stronger combos, better approach, even better kill options. Main strength Ness does have is the fact that he can't be walled by fireballs since he can Magnet them, so don't spam fireballs. It's a standard matchup for Luigi really.

So Mega Man luigi... I see a bit of frustration from you guys (15-85 omg). Mega can't wall indefinitely anyone by using pellets, they have a huge lag after stopping shooting (28 frames actually). Just shield them. The key to beating Mega Man is understanding how pellets work.
Mega fires a pellet at frame 8 and every 12 frames thereafter. He can shoot up to 3 pellets. After shooting the pellets he undergoes 28 frames of lag in where he can walk forward, turn around or jump (usually he will jump).
Shield the pellets, go in. Force Mega Man to the ledge, then he will be forced to jump out of there or try a dash grab in.
Mega is combo fodder, he's heavy and fast faller and has no fast options to break free from combos after the rush cancel nerf. Once Luigi gets a grab in it's wonder magic time. Mega also struggles getting the kill.
Mega can kill luigi offstage by hitting him with Bair when you use the missile. If you get a missfire it's Mega who dies though. Dair doesn't work except against tornado and even then it will only sometimes work.
Fireball spam won't work on Mega since he can just pellet spam and win it.
Customs don't really help Mega that much. He will probably pick plant barrier since it's a superior option than leaf shield like always, and maybe Danger Wrap (side B that kills). Metal blade is always the best option, and probably will just go Rush as upB.
Imo luigi wins, not sure about number but i'll say 6-4. I could see even but someone saying 15-85 is utter nonsense bull****.

You may call my rating stupid but when I pretty much have to wait for my opponent to screw something up to get damage 90% of the time I think it deserves that rating. If you really rate it 6-4 in Luigi's favor of all things, you have never played this match up right. I talk about his ice projectile, not danger wrap.

I've played a Mega Man 4 or 5 times already. When Mega Man plays the match up right, it can be flat out impossible for Luigi to get damage. Let me quote ZeRo: "The neutral is the main thing that decides how good your character is in smash 4"

 

[Greward]

You may call my rating stupid but when I pretty much have to wait for my opponent to screw something up to get damage 90% of the time I think it deserves that rating. If you really rate it 6-4 in Luigi's favor of all things, you have never played this match up right. I talk about his ice projectile, not danger wrap.

I've played a Mega Man 4 or 5 times already. When Mega Man plays the match up right, it can be flat out impossible for Luigi to get damage. Let me quote ZeRo: "The neutral is the main thing that decides how good your character is in smash 4"

If you want to quote ZeRo, he said Luigi is third best. Do you really think the third best char does have a 15-85 matchup?
Ice slasher is not very good, really. You even mentioned Hyper Bomb which is a bad move lol.

Mega Man does not shut down Luigi in neutral game, Mega does chip damage in neutral game which is a different thing.
So you played Mega Man 4 or 5 times? Dude like that's so amazing 4 or 5 times you're definitely an expert in the matchup. I have played this matchup over 200 times probably and I'm just saying a random number to say a lot.
I have played this matchup at pretty much all skill levels. Mega does good against Luigi, specially at low level, more than most of the cast since he can somewhat box him out with projectile spam.

But Luigi is overpowered, and I'm telling you this as a person who picks Luigi in tournament and usually have better results than characters I put 10x hours over luigi (although I played luigi a lot in brawl). There's a reason why a lot of players are currently switching to Luigi and getting top3 placement at a lot of regions.
The way to play against Mega's pellets (which is his advantage in this matchup) is to avoid/shield them and approach on the 28 frame end lag. It is a patient way to play, to gain ground and force Mega to the ledge.
Assuming Mega is not able to "completely wall out Luigi so he has no chances at all ever to approach" (note: he can't), what does he have to offer? A strong gimp game and good grabs, but I'm not sure if he can. He will still chip damage in neutral game though, but each pellet does 1-2% damage (this means full pellet combo is less than 6% unless we get a pellet punch in). Metal Blade can combo into dash grab at some ranges so watch out for that (although Luigi may escape the combo with Nair).

Mega does pretty well against Luigi for being a mid tier, but at the end of the day he's a mid tier. I could see the matchup up to even, but I don't think he beats Luigi. I don't see it either as a Mega player or as a Luigi player (since I rarely play Mega Man in tournament anymore).

 

[Luco]

@ TriTails Actually Ness and Luigi's frame data on grabs are identical except for the fact that Ness' pivot grab is 1 frame slower (so yeah, his dash grab is frame 8 like luigi's. No character in the game has a frame 7 dash grab).
It's not like Luigi has to approach, both have to. Ness ain't gonna outcamp Luigi with PK fire or thunder since they're punishable as hell.
Luigi shouldn't contest ness a lot in a SH battle, Ness should win with his Fair. Try to stay grounded. Ness doesn't really have good moves in the ground besides dash grab.
Ness' up air landing on shield should be very hard to punish, try to go for up smash instead.
When you are offstage, Ness will go for PKT and it should be very annoying for Luigi's low speed. Nado does stop it though. Watch out for Bair / Nair / Dsmash too.
Yep I think Luigi wins.

ACTUALLY I prefer the air that isn't true. Ness' standing grab equals luigi at 6 frames, dash grab beats it by one frame at 7 and pivot grab also beats Luigi's by one frame at 8. Taken from the data shown in this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/ness-matchup-discussion-luigi.406784/#post-19610315

And Ness does not win the SH battle. Ness' Fair trades with Luigi's Fair. Considering Ness' Fair is a multi-hit move that takes time to inflict damage, I'm sure you can imagine who wins that trade. Nair also trades with Fair, and so does most of Ness' aerials... tbh I'm pretty sure the only aerial that beats out all of Luigi's aerials is like Bair and MAYBE Uair, but I'm not even sure about those two.

Spaced Bair and Uair are safe on block (not sure about PS though), which means Luigi has to alternate what he's doing to get in. Footsies in this MU isn't so clear cut as you make it out to be.

That said I still see this MU as like, even at best (on Ness' side. It could very well be worse for us/better for you) probably.

 

[Greward]

ACTUALLY I prefer the air that isn't true. Ness' standing grab equals luigi at 6 frames, dash grab beats it by one frame at 7 and pivot grab also beats Luigi's by one frame at 8. Taken from the data shown in this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/ness-matchup-discussion-luigi.406784/#post-19610315

And Ness does not win the SH battle. Ness' Fair trades with Luigi's Fair. Considering Ness' Fair is a multi-hit move that takes time to inflict damage, I'm sure you can imagine who wins that trade. Nair also trades with Fair, and so does most of Ness' aerials... tbh I'm pretty sure the only aerial that beats out all of Luigi's aerials is like Bair and MAYBE Uair, but I'm not even sure about those two.

Spaced Bair and Uair are safe on block (not sure about PS though), which means Luigi has to alternate what he's doing to get in. Footsies in this MU isn't so clear cut as you make it out to be.

That said I still see this MU as like, even at best (on Ness' side. It could very well be worse for us/better for you) probably.

Ness fair should outrange Luigi's and it's disjointed. It can trade if not done perfectly spaced tho. Luigi's bair should outrange everything and be able to trade.
Footsies are hard to be talked about (since it's quite a mindgame battle) so I just say the most important options in neutral game.
Are you sure that frame data is correctly done? I have Fair as F8, Bair as F10, Dash Grab as 8 and Pivot grab as 10, and I believe mine to be legit. Rest are the same.

 

[Yonder]

^ Lmao 15-85. Just... wtf

As a guy who plays in tournament Ness, Luigi and Mega Man I think I can speak of all matchups.

First of all luigi beats Ness very solidly. Luigi is pretty much a better Ness without PK Thunder. Superior frame data, stronger combos, better approach, even better kill options. Main strength Ness does have is the fact that he can't be walled by fireballs since he can Magnet them, so don't spam fireballs. It's a standard matchup for Luigi really.

So Mega Man luigi... I see a bit of frustration from you guys (15-85 omg). Mega can't wall indefinitely anyone by using pellets, they have a huge lag after stopping shooting (28 frames actually). Just shield them. The key to beating Mega Man is understanding how pellets work.
Mega fires a pellet at frame 8 and every 12 frames thereafter. He can shoot up to 3 pellets. After shooting the pellets he undergoes 28 frames of lag in where he can walk forward, turn around or jump (usually he will jump).
Shield the pellets, go in. Force Mega Man to the ledge, then he will be forced to jump out of there or try a dash grab in.
Mega is combo fodder, he's heavy and fast faller and has no fast options to break free from combos after the rush cancel nerf. Once Luigi gets a grab in it's wonder magic time. Mega also struggles getting the kill.
Mega can kill luigi offstage by hitting him with Bair when you use the missile. If you get a missfire it's Mega who dies though. Dair doesn't work except against tornado and even then it will only sometimes work.
Fireball spam won't work on Mega since he can just pellet spam and win it.
Customs don't really help Mega that much. He will probably pick plant barrier since it's a superior option than leaf shield like always, and maybe Danger Wrap (side B that kills). Metal blade is always the best option, and probably will just go Rush as upB.
Imo luigi wins, not sure about number but i'll say 6-4. I could see even but someone saying 15-85 is utter nonsense bull****.

MonkeyArms easily has the most radical matchup opinions for Luigi that I've seen on here. Personally I agree with almost none of them, but he does have tourney results so I at least take it into consideration!

I for one definitely don't agree with 15-85 Mega's favor. That's worse than Luigi vs MK in Brawl which was so much worse (75-25?). I'm one of the most optimistic Luigi's against Megaman, but I think it's like 60:40 Megaman. Rob is equally difficult but people don't usually agree with me there. Maybe even Lucas is as tough as Mega. I just don't see Mega being as hard as Sheik from personal experience. At least metal gears and crash bomber clank to fireballs. Mega's charges shot is like a less annoying version of Samus'. And Mega is really easy to combo...something about his air acceleration being the fastest makes him optimal bait for d throw combos. And Mega is gimp bait for dair spikes while recovering. So is Luigi though with a well placed gear or dair from Mega. What's truly annoying though are Mega's pellets. There's not much Luigi can do about those. If Mega whiffs a down smash...he's dead to up b. whiffs an u tilt? Dead to u tilted forward smash. Mega out ranges Luigi all around from what I believe. Fair, bair, tornado uair keeps Luigi busy too. IMO, Rob's lazer, gyro, uair, and nair used in good tandem has been as hassling, if not more than Mega. Only reason why Rob doesn't beat Luigi harder is due to how easy it is to gimp him while recovering and how easy he is to combo or up b kill.

Anyways I think Megaman is 60:40 his favor. Maybe I need to get beaten up by more Megas idk. I'm more optimistic here than most Luigi's.

 

[MonkeyArms]

But Luigi is overpowered

*stops reading*

You know what I was thinking it could be 20:80 too. But people see anything lower than that and they just think you're crazy for some reason.

MonkeyArms easily has the most radical matchup opinions for Luigi that I've seen on here. Personally I agree with almost none of them, but he does have tourney results so I at least take it into consideration!

I for one definitely don't agree with 15-85 Mega's favor. That's worse than Luigi vs MK in Brawl which was so much worse

Never played brawl competitively due to it being shut down at smash 4s release.

I just read "as close as unwinnable" and if the Mega Man player knows the match up, its very close to unwinnable.
I play a Mega Man who knows the match up, but on the other hand doesn't have as much experience in the game as me. Therefor I tend to beat him, but its still pretty close. And that's without customs. With customs Mega Man just gets a lot more options as to what he can use.

 

[TriTails]

I just read "as close as unwinnable" and if the Mega Man player knows the match up, its very close to unwinnable.
I play a Mega Man who knows the match up, but on the other hand doesn't have as much experience in the game as me. Therefor I tend to beat him, but its still pretty close. And that's without customs. With customs Mega Man just gets a lot more options as to what he can use.

In all fairness, Mega doesn't beat Luigi THAT hard if Luigi know the MU.

Like Greward said, shield beats pellets. We gimp him, we combo him, we kill setup'd him. On the other side, he gimps us, keeps us out, reaches out further than us, as well as having better aerial mobility.

But we do need to remember. From what I can gather, aggresive Luigis will get bopped, hard. Shield is your best friend. When Mega press A once, he can't do anything for another half a second bar moving/jumping/firing another pellet. He can't do anything to shield with pellets, and the end lag allows us to close in the distance and react to whatever he does. Saying Mega keeps Luigi out is fine, but saying he keeps Luigi out forever is not true at all because pellets don't have knockback, and the end lag is bigger than I think the moment I labbed it out.

In a nutshell, spaced pellets = good. Misspaced pellets = bad. Therefore when we close in the distance, Mega has to re-space, and the process will repeat until we corner him. There he has no more room to retreat, and has to break through us. Pellets aren't an option, and they have to use something else, and that something else are all punishable. I'm pretty sure this is what Greward was saying. I'm not sure about this, but if Mega Up-B and Leaf Shield, U-smash seem to be able to beat it (Because intangible head, but don't quote me on this).

This is what I can gather from Mega boards anyway. I had been on that board a while ago, and while majority think this is heavily in Mega's favor, some other... think this isn't as bad as we think. But I'll shut up now because I'm a bad Luigi.

But it's your opinion. I already added them to the OP.

 

[Noa.]

Yeah just want to say that I agree with what was said about the Luigi ness matchup.

Luigi does win it slightly. We both combo very well, but yours at Better. We both kill very well but you can do it a bit earlier. We can gimp you pretty well though. And our aerials typically beat yours. Close matchup but Luigi wins it.

 

[MonkeyArms]

In all fairness, Mega doesn't beat Luigi THAT hard if Luigi know the MU.

Like Greward said, shield beats pellets. We gimp him, we combo him, we kill setup'd him. On the other side, he gimps us, keeps us out, reaches out further than us, as well as having better aerial mobility.

But we do need to remember. From what I can gather, aggresive Luigis will get bopped, hard. Shield is your best friend. When Mega press A once, he can't do anything for another half a second bar moving/jumping/firing another pellet. He can't do anything to shield with pellets, and the end lag allows us to close in the distance and react to whatever he does. Saying Mega keeps Luigi out is fine, but saying he keeps Luigi out forever is not true at all because pellets don't have knockback, and the end lag is bigger than I think the moment I labbed it out.

In a nutshell, spaced pellets = good. Misspaced pellets = bad. Therefore when we close in the distance, Mega has to re-space, and the process will repeat until we corner him. There he has no more room to retreat, and has to break through us. Pellets aren't an option, and they have to use something else, and that something else are all punishable. I'm pretty sure this is what Greward was saying. I'm not sure about this, but if Mega Up-B and Leaf Shield, U-smash seem to be able to beat it (Because intangible head, but don't quote me on this).

This is what I can gather from Mega boards anyway. I had been on that board a while ago, and while majority think this is heavily in Mega's favor, some other... think this isn't as bad as we think. But I'll shut up now because I'm a bad Luigi.

But it's your opinion. I already added them to the OP.

Well, in that case, I guess you could raise it to 20:80. Its still pretty horrible for Luigi.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

What I think of Luigi vs Mega is that pelllets keep Luigi away (same as fsmash) but Luigi can combo Megaman for days but for that to happen megaman will need to make a mistake.. In the air megaman can still nair luigi, now gimping Luigi is a bit hard and luigi can gimp us fast, so overall is more of a skill thing but if both keep the same skill megaman should win

 

[TriTails]

Luigi doesn't need to wait for a mistake from MM. He just go in petiently with shield and corner Mega. There you have to break through us and your options are punishable... if I'm not wrong.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Luigi doesn't need to wait for a mistake from MM. He just go in petiently with shield and corner Mega. There you have to break through us and your options are punishable... if I'm not wrong.

Megaman can shield if Luigi uses aerials and if he uses fireball to grab we can spam pellets.. how can luigi actually approach?

 

[TriTails]

If you shield close to Luigi then you are doing it wrong.

Pellets have end lag. If we get on your face you can't do anything except walk or jump, both are punishable. Good luck spamming pellets when you yourself are in pellets' recovery frames. When we get a grab, it's smackdown. You have to re-space every pellets, and when you get in the corner, you can't do anything to re-space and has to either grab/jump/walk/shield/roll/stuffs that aren't pellets, all punishable with good reads. Heck, if you are in pellets' recovery frames, you can't do anything except walk and jump.

But perhaps you can ask @ Greward because he has more experience with both characters.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

If you shield close to Luigi then you are doing it wrong.

Pellets have end lag. If we get on your face you can't do anything except walk or jump, both are punishable. Good luck spamming pellets when you yourself are in pellets' recovery frames. When we get a grab, it's smackdown. You have to re-space every pellets, and when you get in the corner, you can't do anything to re-space and has to either grab/jump/walk/shield/roll/stuffs that aren't pellets, all punishable with good reads. Heck, if you are in pellets' recovery frames, you can't do anything except walk and jump.

But perhaps you can ask @ Greward because he has more experience with both characters.

Yes, but ypu are missing the important part here, once you corner megaman he can simply grab the ledge and then it is rock paper scissors and when Megaman gets to cross Luigi it starts over

 

[MonkeyArms]

Megaman can shield if Luigi uses aerials and if he uses fireball to grab we can spam pellets.. how can luigi actually approach?

Tomahawks. Just learned that today.
make that 70:30 now @ TriTails

 

[lijero13ss]

If you want to quote ZeRo, he said Luigi is third best. Do you really think the third best char does have a 15-85 matchup?
Ice slasher is not very good, really. You even mentioned Hyper Bomb which is a bad move lol.

Mega Man does not shut down Luigi in neutral game, Mega does chip damage in neutral game which is a different thing.
So you played Mega Man 4 or 5 times? Dude like that's so amazing 4 or 5 times you're definitely an expert in the matchup. I have played this matchup over 200 times probably and I'm just saying a random number to say a lot.
I have played this matchup at pretty much all skill levels. Mega does good against Luigi, specially at low level, more than most of the cast since he can somewhat box him out with projectile spam.

But Luigi is overpowered, and I'm telling you this as a person who picks Luigi in tournament and usually have better results than characters I put 10x hours over luigi (although I played luigi a lot in brawl). There's a reason why a lot of players are currently switching to Luigi and getting top3 placement at a lot of regions.
The way to play against Mega's pellets (which is his advantage in this matchup) is to avoid/shield them and approach on the 28 frame end lag. It is a patient way to play, to gain ground and force Mega to the ledge.
Assuming Mega is not able to "completely wall out Luigi so he has no chances at all ever to approach" (note: he can't), what does he have to offer? A strong gimp game and good grabs, but I'm not sure if he can. He will still chip damage in neutral game though, but each pellet does 1-2% damage (this means full pellet combo is less than 6% unless we get a pellet punch in). Metal Blade can combo into dash grab at some ranges so watch out for that (although Luigi may escape the combo with Nair).

Mega does pretty well against Luigi for being a mid tier, but at the end of the day he's a mid tier. I could see the matchup up to even, but I don't think he beats Luigi. I don't see it either as a Mega player or as a Luigi player (since I rarely play Mega Man in tournament anymore).

this sounds like a very big "Luigi is higher on the tier list and therefore has to beat megaman" type of argument

 

[lijero13ss]

Unfortunately I am not well versed in the Megaman MU since i've only played one Megaman player a few times before. So no rating from me for Megaman

 

[TriTails]

Yes, but ypu are missing the important part here, once you corner megaman he can simply grab the ledge and then it is rock paper scissors and when Megaman gets to cross Luigi it starts over

IF Mega can cross Luigi. Luigi can cover getups quite well from my experience with SH N-air or U-smash/D-smash/Cyclone.

Tomahawks. Just learned that today.
make that 70:30 now @ TriTails

Custom... or default?

this sounds like a very big "Luigi is higher on the tier list and therefore has to beat megaman" type of argument

Read 2nd and 3rd paragraphs.

On the first one, I think he was being sarcastic... but don't listen to ZeRo that easily. Top 3 is too overblown for Luigi.

On the fourth though... yeah, but it's not 'very big'. He was exaggerating a bit when he says Luigi is overpowered but his arguments are reasonable (It's true. Pellets lose to shield).

And no double post plz.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Custom... or default?

Default. Custom is up to 25:75.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Wth is tomahawks?

 

[TriTails]

Wth is tomahawks?

Jumping and quickly fast-falling at unpredictable moment to land and quickly grab the surprised opponent.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Jumping and quickly fast-falling at unpredictable moment to land and quickly grab the surprised opponent.

Cant pellets cover that also?

 

[MonkeyArms]

Cant pellets cover that also?

Not if you use them on the ground. And if you jump and use pellets, Luigi can get in on the ground with perfect shields if he's lucky.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

It is def a tough matchup for luigi against mega man.

I have found that customs help luigi more than mega man.
The bouncing fire balls are much more effective at messing up mega man than the normal ones. And they are much harder to cancel out with lemons.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

It is def a tough matchup for luigi against mega man.

I have found that customs help luigi more than mega man.
The bouncing fire balls are much more effective at messing up mega man than the normal ones. And they are much harder to cancel out with lemons.

Buuut.. Tornado Hold!

 

[ravemaster47]

The matchup is close I think, I play a fairly good luigi in my town, he's top 3, for sure. I can keep him.out well with lemons as you should with mega. But as greward said, shielding the lemons will leave us a bit defenseless. MB is good in this matchup as it goes through luigi's tornado, and can catch luigi if he attempts to approach from the air. That being said, weegee is an absolute nightmare if he gets a hold of megs. 0-50%+. Pellets will be fireballs all day, but the fact weegee has so much combo potential really puts us in our place. Off stage, mega has options to kill weegee, more reliably than weegee has to kill us off stage. All in all, I'd say it's about even.

 

[TriTails]

The matchup is close I think, I play a fairly good luigi in my town, he's top 3, for sure. I can keep him.out well with lemons as you should with mega. But as greward said, shielding the lemons will leave us a bit defenseless. MB is good in this matchup as it goes through luigi's tornado, and can catch luigi if he attempts to approach from the air. That being said, weegee is an absolute nightmare if he gets a hold of megs. 0-50%+. Pellets will be fireballs all day, but the fact weegee has so much combo potential really puts us in our place. Off stage, mega has options to kill weegee, more reliably than weegee has to kill us off stage. All in all, I'd say it's about even.

Custom or default?

 

[ravemaster47]

Default. I don't play customs.

 

[chic]

I wish there was a megaman for me to play frequently here . i've only played on in friendlies last week (SSGuy) and it was tougher than I thought

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I wish there was a megaman for me to play frequently here . i've only played on in friendlies last week (SSGuy) and it was tougher than I thought

I can play all afternoons in my 3ds

 

[Astro !=]

Edit: This ended up being really long. Skip to "Overall" if you don't want specifics.

I had a few things to add to Ness. I haven't been on smash boards in a while, but I'll probably start coming back more often. I play against/as Ness fairly often, but have only played 3-4 mega men.

I'm no expert vs Mega Man, but 30-70 is kinda ridiculous. I was thinking more 40-60. You'll have to take damage from lemons, but saw blade is catch-able on reaction and crash bomber is bad. If you're being walled out by lemons, you need to get better. Lemons will deal chip damage, and mega man beats green missile easily, but Weegee only needs to get in a few times, and mega man's recovery is just as free as ours. You should be able to get in at least 2-3 times a stock, and it's up to you to convert that into a kill. It's pretty hard, but not nearly 30-70 level hard.



Edge play
If Luigi has time to setup an edge guard (i.e. grab ledge) and Ness uses PKT below stage level, he should die every time. If he's out of bair range, then take the blow and tech the stage.
In any other case where Ness recovers with PKT2, approach with rar and bair if he misses the sweet spot. I've traded bair with PKT2 before, but it didn't work out for me so I'd suggest just waiting for the hotbox to end.
If Ness recovers with DJ expect air dodge or fair, both of which are easy to punish with a rar into well timed bair. The Ness will eventually learn to always go for DJ sweet spot when recovering, and I have a hard time stopping that while covering other options.

Ness can totally stop green missile with the tail of PKT, so it's important to release it before the PKT gets close to you. Be very careful with your DJ while PKT is out, as DJ into PKT tail is normally death. Since the head will hit you back towards the stage (unless he circles it behind you), I'll sometimes DJ into it, tech the stage, and up-b to ledge. Just remember than any hitbox of any aerial beats the head of PKT, so long as you space it right.

Neutral / Almost Neutral
The only thing Ness has over Luigi is air speed (surprise). This means his aerials are a lot more non committal in neutral since his SHAC is faster and he can weave well. Other than that, all his moves lose or trade with Luigi's kit.

Now that magnet is good Fireball isn't an instant win in neutral, but Luigi should still win it most of the time. My game plan is to push Ness out of center stage with sh fireball to stop aerial approaches, and then punish his sub par ground game. Ness can sh magnet for ~9%, but he'll either be stuck in lag or DJ out (both of which are great for us).

Ness shouldn't really pressure Weegee, even when fireball is unsafe (due too proximity). Cyclone will beat any SHAC aerial that Ness whiffs in this range except double nair, but that can be grabbed if you're expecting it. Most Ness players will mix-up their aggressive approaches with dash attack, dash grab, and sh fair. It can be hard to cover, but you should win that most of the time if you're not tossing unsafe moves.

You don't want Ness in super close though, bc his aerials are fairly safe on shield, and rising aerials on shield can only be punished with nair/fair OoS, and only if Ness doesn't fade back.

Both of us have great grabs, neither of us get many of them. Since Ness spends a lot of time in the air, I normally play grounded and try to punish landings. Both of us get punished usually for being too aggressive, but neither of us can return to neutral very easily, so the matches usually go by quickly despite being slow to start.

Combos
Luigi combos Ness hard, Ness juggles Luigi just hard. Ness's nair is his GTFO move usually, and we can usually beat it out, or take the trade with fair/nair. However, Ness' upair beats everything we could throw at him, and good Ness players will cover your air dodge. I think Weegee has the advantage though because we can juggle Ness fairly well, but Ness can't reliably link more than a couple moves.

Overall
I would put it in Luigi's favor, but a patient Ness could very well make it even or better. Neither character has great approaches, and we both should take tons of percent off of one grab (thought Luigi's percent is much more consistent). Ness can use b-throw, upair, or bair to get reliable kills at <~110%, while Luigi can use his d-throw, bair (Luigi bair > ness bair), or up-smash, as well as his more consistent edge guard game.

I'll go with 55-45 for Luigi.

 

[TriTails]

Oh dang. I forgot to request for nominations.

For now, keep discussing Mega and Ness until I can decide the next characters.

 

[Luco]

Just a thought @ Astro != Magnet can be cancelled into SH, spot-dodge or a backwards roll, so be aware of that.

 

[TriTails]

Week 2 has come to an end. I thank you everyone who has participated.

Now we move on to Week 3, Roy and ROB!

 

[Lizard_Buttock]

A ROB main here. I feel like for us, this MU gives you a slight advantage, but isn't unwinnable for us (60:40 to you, I'd say). The main thing keeping us in the game is that we can keep you out. We have some of the best zoning tools in the game, and Luigi has no safe way to counter them. However, your fireballs can destroy our gyros on contact, so it's not entirely impossible for you to escape. When you get close, however, you can really hurt us. You have superior frame data on just about every move, and if we get grabbed, we're super weak to your combos thanks to our large hurtbox. Generally, there isn't much we can do when you're up close, but there isn't much you can do when we're zoning you out. The advantage goes to you as it's much easier for you to kill from up close, whereas we have to risk going into you to actually kill you.

http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-analysis-6-luigi.394423/ Here's the link to our discussion on it, by the way. This is quite an old thread however, before Luigi really became such a dominant force in the meta, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[TriTails]

I'm just going to pretend every ratios that aren't labelled are default-only ratios and add them to default category .

 

[BlueBirdE]

Comment for now on Roy: His jab seems like a great spacing tool for keeping us out been having trouble getting around it. A patient roy is hard to deal wtih when they can sh nair over your fireballs or cover rolls. Once you get in you put on some damage with his fast fall Speed. I believe cyclone gimp is effective against roy but im not sure since i heard the move has armor. I know roys aerials are supposedly unsafe on shield but idk by how much. Are we able to take advantage of roys aerials on shield due to our traction?