Luigi Specific Match-up Discussion Thread (Week 4: Villager and Pikachu!)

[Astro !=]

Just a thought @ Astro != Magnet can be cancelled into SH, spot-dodge or a backwards roll, so be aware of that.

I was referring specifically to a sh magnet, since Ness can't catch sh fireball with a grounded magnet in my experience. Either that or they don't try I almost never toss grounded fireball vs ness since magnet is so good.

Thanks tho!

Oh and yea, my ratio was for defautl. Customs don't change much in Ness v weegee, but mega man gets some mileage out of it.

I still say 55:45 for ness weegee in customs, but i can't comment on mega man

 

[TriTails]

...Wow. This thread is surprisingly low on activity last few days. I thought a lot of people wanted to discuss ROB?

 

[BlueBirdE]

I imagine evo weekend may have had something to do with it. I havent been active this weekend either. But aside from that I havent played many robs so im not the most knowledgeable person when it comes to this mu. Any nitbits would be great!

 

[MonkeyArms]

...Wow. This thread is surprisingly low on activity last few days. I thought a lot of people wanted to discuss ROB?

Fine, if you want me too.
Make my C.F. Match up 55:45 please.

:

Advantages for : Extremely easy to edge guard Rob. Combos rob very easily. Very easily perfect shields Robs projectiles. Can punish Rob easily. With customs, he can use the bouncing fireball to go over Robs projectiles. He can use quick missile to get back onstage easier since most of Robs moves knock you pretty high when you're offstage (though I still hate quick missile).

Advantages for : Can space Luigi out. Can edge guard Luigi most of the time (without customs). Quickly kills Luigi with a down throw up air. Can play mind games with Gyro. With customs, his recovery gets faster and he gets a burning gyro/slip gyro. Jank hitbox can mess up SJP.

60:40 Luigi in both cases.

 

[Yonder]

I will definitely be making a post on Roy and Rob soon, when I have the time. Especially Roy since there's one at my weekly smash place that I juuuust lose to by a hair.

 

[Astro !=]

There's 2 Robs in my area, both refuse to play this matchup now. One of the guys is just worst than me, the other is probably better. He goes Rosa and bodies my Luigi, I have to use Falcon/Shiek to go even with him.


Rob is a zoning character, but he can't zone Luigi. His lazer is easy to shield, and if you're having trouble with Gyromite then play with items on for a bit and learn to catch that thing. It's not that hard, really. Plus fireball will stop gyro in place unless he charges it most/all the way.

Neutral
Shield lazer, catch/pick up the gyro, and camp with fire balls. Force Rob to the edge, toss the gyro in whatever direction, and use fireballs to get in. Rob has a solid d-tilt, but it doesn't combo. His F-smash can't be punished at max range, but he shouldn't be tossing that move out. D-smash is annoying, but learn how many hits it has and it's easy to punish. In brawl, rob would spot-dodge -> d-smash all the time, so watch for that.

Don't let rob force you into shield! If you're stuck in shield, rob with do the beep boop for free. Mash nair just incase, but you're probably dead.

Combos
Rob has one fast aerial, fair. It's not even fast. Just combo him mercilessly.

Rob has almost no combos, but watch for his disjoint on bair, nair, and dair.

Edge guarding
Rob is tricky to edgeguard because of how fast he can act out of up-b. However, our bair > rob fair, use rar bair and fireballs to get that damage on him while he's recovering. You can also get the dair spike, but it's risky.

Rob can beat green missile with easy, but he can't do much while you're below him. His dair and nair are both slow, you can catch him with DJ cyclone before he can do anything about it.

Stages
Ban delfino and hal bread. Take him to FD if you want to body him in the neutral, though sometimes I go battlefield to take advantage of his telegraphed recovery and trouble landing (goes both ways).

Final Notes
Rob is bad for a reason. He gets out camped, out combo-ed, and he loses in the neutral to fireball pressure. The only thing he has is the beep boop, which can kill us a bit earlier than d-throw nado kills him. If you watch rob closely, you can react to all of his aerials expect fair and upair. His ground game is alright, but we have fireballs.

Never seen a customs rob, but default is probably +2 for Luigi, which I guess is 60:40.

As for Roy, there's literally only 1 Roy and it's Sethlon. He came to a local near me recently, but I didn't get the chance to play against him. I'd say Mario vs Roy is 52:48 in Roy's favor, but that's not too useful here.

 

[TriTails]

EDIT: Oh s***, I forgot there's 2 more days before the week ends.

 

[lijero13ss]

Rob i feel is actually one of the difficult MUs for Luigi. It isn't too hard, but I feel like it isn't in our favor either. ROB is also my secondary, for whatever its worth.

ROB is combo food. We can combo him mad hard and get him to kill % w/ very few grabs and air combos. This is a huge plus for us. Not to mention that his hurtbox lets us hit him w/ down throw cyclone/bair easier.
He has enough lag on his smash attacks where we can punish him if he whiffs and if he tries to recover high predictably we have the ability to jump and cyclone him (a tad risky).

However, ROB has all the tools necessary to keep us out and to gimp us. The gyro is a great surprise attack for us if we try to run in on him and knocks us back a good amount. The gyro also has the ability to stop fireballs while on the ground and pretty much create a wall between us and ROB where he can shoot a laser or just wait for our next move. His uncharged laser also comes out quite fast and is a little hard to react to. Which gives him time to charge another gyro and keep his distance.

Offstage, i feel like we are both vulnerable to getting gimped. Rob generally should recover high to avoid luigi gimping him/stage spiking him. Luigi must be very wary of the gyro and laser from ROB. One gyro toss or laser hit angled towards luigi can mean the death of luigi offstage. Not to mention ROB can jump offstage and harass luigi during his recovery.

Overall, Luigi can combo ROB hard. ROB has all the tools to keep luigi away and has many gimping tools for luigi.

PS: For whatever its worth, HolyNightmare, Mister Eric, and Bo x7 all think the MU is in ROBs favor.



My Ruling: 60:40 ROB favor

 

[BlueBirdE]

Maybe we can invite the other boards to discuss what they think as well?

 

[oldkingcroz]

Astro:
ROB's customs don't help against Luigi too much. His gyros are all vaguely similar, but his his good up B is a strait upgrade. It has less juice, but is faster moving- which is better when fighting Luigi, seeing that some of Luigi's main kill moves and setups are on-stage, the gas on his recovery isn't a big issue, as most of the match will be on-stage. Lasers are nothing to write home about, and I haven't experimented with his side B, but the better deflector might be of use. Luigi's customs are a lot more versatile, with quick side b and ice ball having potential to be quite annoying.

Nevertheless, Luigi isn't really fun to fight, as ROB. Grab combos and fireballs work wonders.

 

[TriTails]

Maybe we can invite the other boards to discuss what they think as well?

Already did. Perhaps I will extend the week for 2 days if there's no Roy discussions.

 

[Yonder]

Okay, maybe now I can offer a bit of input. First, Roy. There's a Roy main where I play that basically is even with me, I win some, he wins some. Now Roy is super fast on the ground and outranges Luigi with his sword. He also has an extremely fast fall speed. This fall speed makes him easier to combo out of a D throw...but it makes D throw to tornado a terrible option here for killing, it fails more often than not against Roy. Fireballs are respectable in this matchup, and I think Luigi can hold his own while on stage from my experience, I like to space with bair and fair. Roy's kill power kind of varies based on if he gets you with the hilt or not, except F smash is insane. So I think they are pretty even on stage...offstage sucks for Luigi. Roy's faster air speed makes Luigi super easy to edgeguard. Fair makes quick work of Luigi on the side, and Flare blade kills Luigi going for the edge. I just have so much trouble avoiding flare blade recovering with Luigi due to the area it hits, it gets me almost EVERY time. I get luck and jump over it sometimes. What's the best way to avoid it while recovering? Anyone know? This alone will probably let me beat that guy more consistently in friendlies...Anyways I think 55:45 Roy. Haven't played with customs [or many matchups in general] with customs.

Now for ROB. I hate this matchup and I have yet to win it. Online, and in a tournament I lost [Took a stock out of 2, but still lose it]. I just struggle with it a lot. Rob has many tolls close up and away to keep Luigi out. Fireballs clanks with gyro which is nice but a good ROB won't just throw gyro out at random, they mix it up with laser. Basically Luigi can answer to laser as well as Ganondorf can answer to Luigi's fireballs...not at all. They are great for gimping Luigi onstage and offstage. You have to perfect shield all projectiles I guess. And if you get close, one grab from ROB and Luigi gets d throw to up aired easily. Not to mention Nair covers his whole body, keeping Luigi out. Of course, when Luigi gets in, it's chaos and ROB gets hurt bad. ROB can be easy to gimp too depending on what they do. They may recovery high so try for the cyclone while avoiding the dair. Or a air spike if they go low. So yeah, wish I could offer more advice but this is one of my most hated matchups for Luigi. Others seem to be doing alright on it though. Ironic cause ROB is a secondary of mine but yeah...60:40 ROB.

 

[Mister Eric]

In this thread I said it was 50:50. But it's prob around 55:45 ROB favor.
http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-analysis-6-luigi.394423/#post-18786178

Hope this helps!

 

[leesinger]

I happen to have Roy as a secondary and have quite a few games with him. However I still feel the meta is still developing with him so its a bit premature to guess where he truly lies in this matchup. However if I were to give someone the favor I would say luigi is slightly favored, but not by much. I only think that because luigi can get a guaranteed f-air, f-air to regrab, or f-air, f-air and then can trap roy in uptilts to about 62%. He can outspace roy with fireballs and punish roys offensive options which are usually aerial, with upsmash's/ u-airs. I mean Roy would technically always win if it were a perfect world tho because he has fast options and a disjointed hitbox on all his moves , but we dont live in that world. Roy does have some advantages tho, inclusing the fact that luigi must perfect shield/spot-dodge almost all of his attacks because of how much shield knockback they have. This is a very frightening situation to be in as a luigi player because of how early roy can kill. So all in all I would give this matchup a 55:45 in favor of luigi, but Roy is still developing and with perfect spacing and perfect shield, etc. luigi wouldnt be able to get in and roy would win.

 

[Astro !=]

Hm, I still don't really see how ROB beat Luigi since lazers and Gyro can be shielded on reaction (assuming you aren't tossing a move). Gyro can even be caught or picked up. As long as you wait for Rob to lazer before tossing fireballs you should win neutral.

Rob will kill me out of green missile 8 times out of 10, but hit nair, bair, and dair are all frame 18 or worse. Up air and fair are p fast but so long as you're under him there's not much for him to do.

This matchup is pretty hard online though, I never go Luigi vs rob on anther's ladder because a few frames of lag make a huge difference when trying to shield his stuff.

Matchup charts will always vary based on individual experience, but I'll change my ratio to 55:45 since so many people disagree.

 

[-Grimm-]

I'll put your ratio in there.

BY THE FREAKIN' WAY! Any of you have hindsights on customs?

Customs don't really help any of these matchups from what I can tell. In my book, the only usable Luigi custom is ice ball, which for these particular matchups is not an improvement over the coverage of standard neutral B.

 

[Yonder]

Customs don't really help any of these matchups from what I can tell. In my book, the only usable Luigi custom is ice ball, which for these particular matchups is not an improvement over the coverage of standard neutral B.

And maybe bouncing fireball for Villager...Luigi really doesn't get much from customs. But some matchups like Mario vs Luigi go from Luigi's favor to even when customs are on. So they help other characters more.

 

[TriTails]

Okay... now time to discuss Villager and Pikachu.

And I really need to start on writing summaries. Despite my active-ness, most of my onlines are from my phone and opening my laptop is hard because I'm here is quite busy with school + course + helping parents' work. But I'll get them done... just wait...

 

[MillionGoldMan]

Dont have much to say, but I have been on both sides of the villager match up (I do main villager myself though).

Villager wins the match up very easily by keeping luigi away through our lloid and slingshot. We can zone luigi out until hes at the higher percents due to Luigi not having very good approach options. This simply puts us in favour of this match up.

Also, if luigi is trying to recover off stage via Side b (forgot the name), we can easily use our aerials to stop him from using it.
His up b clanks with Bowling ball, one of our greatest edge guarding tools.

But where does Luigi have the advantage? Well, whilst it is difficult for luigi to run in and get the grab, if luigi DOES get the grab, we dont have the best ways to challenge the combos other than Nair. Its also pretty common for luigi to be able to kill you from this method

 

[Erikc]

naturally, villager should play a more keep-away game with his lloids and slingshots to keep luigi from getting grabs, and villager should always go off stage for the edge guard. also, dair when luigi fireballs is very useful as you can get a free punish. because luigi excels at close range, villager shouldn't ever really try to get up close. however, if luigi does get a grab, villager doesnt have many tools to escape combos, bar his nair. overall, i'd say the mu is dependent on how good at keep-away the villager is and how good luigi is at forcing his/her way through projectiles. 60-40 in villager's favor imo.

 

[Yonder]

Okay... now time to discuss Villager and Pikachu.

And I really need to start on writing summaries. Despite my active-ness, most of my onlines are from my phone and opening my laptop is hard because I'm here is quite busy with school + course + helping parents' work. But I'll get them done... just wait...

No rush we appreciate your work!

 

[M15t3R E]

We Pikas regard the Luigi MU as one of the most difficult. His aerials and quick jabs wall out our approaches and Pikachu is quite susceptible to his grab game at all percentages, whereas his floatiness makes him fairly awkward and difficult to juggle. Then off-stage his aerials have so much more range that with a decent reaction time Luigi can ward off Pikachu's notoriously good edgeguarding game. However, I have yet to play against a Luigi main player since his fireball was nerfed in the recent patch. I suspect this nerf creates little difference in the overall flow of the match.

 

[TriTails]

Fireball nerf is almost negligible IMO. Unless that Luigi spams Fireballs all the day long he won't really notice much of a difference once he gets used to it.

Yes. The solution is to 'get used to it'. Really. I did it myself and I was like 'Wait. This was nerfed?'.

 

[Wonderf]

For Luigi vs. Villager

I find this match-up is dependent if Luigi can get the grab and get inside Villager's comfort zone due to the fact that Villager is weak up close . I feel like it's a uphill battle for Luigi because of all the spacing tools that Villager has and what little approach options Luigi has. Also when Luigi is off the ledge, it's hard for him to come back with all the edge-guarding options that Villager has but Luigi's up-B clanks with Villager's bowling ball as mention above.

I feel like this match-up is 60:40 in favour of Villager.

Spoiler

Villager memes

 

[Underhill]

I don't have anything on Villager, but for Pikachu, I got the info on him since I main both of them and played Luigi players and Pikachu players. Long post, but I'll try to keep it short as possible. I don't have any good info on Customs.

: Pikachu has jolts to camp if must, his edgeguarding game which causes problems for Luigi, and mobility. Even if you trade your n-air with Pikachu's f-air, you won't get anything out of it so his f-air beats Luigi's n-air. Pikachu will play aggressive, but also try to space you out at the same time with n-air, forward-tile, pivot forward smash, and d-tile so he won't let you approach for free. Be careful using n-air for combo breaking because he can bait that and punish you for more damage. Edgeguarding is where Pikachu shines with b-air, f-air, n-air, thunder, jolts, and d-air because Luigi's air speed is bad, as so as his linear recovery. He can also ledge guard you as well more than you can on him thanks to his QA for a escape. Still, he has to watch out for the misfire missile and don't challenge it, ever. Even though Luigi has n-air and tornado as landing options, he can still jiggle you because he's fast and Luigi's floaty and his air speed is the worst. His projectile is better than your because of its distance, less endlag than the fireball, and the ability to camp as well.

: Now for Luigi. His grab game, combos, ko options, air game, damage output, and set ups are better than Pikachu and dangerous to him as well. Up-smash is a must as a anti-air because it beats all of Pikachu's aerials, including QA. Unless he throws you off-stage and tries to gimp you, then Pikachu is going to have a hard time killing Luigi on stage since he's light, lacks in koing, and once rage kicks in, then it gets worse for him. If you read the skull bash, then its a free d-air spike for you. Luigi's back-air beats all of Pikachu's aerials. Your grab game is better not just because of his down-throw, but having back throw, up throw(low ceiling kill), and forward throw(fresh with enough percent) as kill throws. While Pikachu can punish, Luigi punish harder because of the yellow mouse being light and can't take them more than the man in green. Fire Jump Punch can kill Pikachu at 67% or higher(along with rage) and if you see any landing lag out of his b-air(if Luigi power shield the last hit) or QA(if he mess up), then its a free kill for you.

Stages: I don't have anything good for Luigi on Battlefield, but platforms combo set-ups and kill set up for FJP, and living longer thanks to the blastzone being bigger. Pikachu can use the platforms for extra combos, QA on platforms for a recovery option, and cancel on them with QA for escaping pressure and mindgames. Delfino Plaza and Helberb can help Luigi can get early vertical kills with up-smash, down-smash, up-throw(if fresh), and tornado after from his down-throw. As for Pikachu, same as Battlefield.

vs: 60:40 or 65:35 best in Luigi's favor and this is honestly the worst MU that Pikachu ever have and the green plumber is even worst than Mario.

 

[miniada]

60:40 all of pikas Dthrow combos won't work because of his nair, and Pikachu doesn't do much damage. Luigi has more damage output and kill power. And he has better followups.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

: I think is one of luigis better matchups. Pikachu's main goal seems to be on getting in and comboing opponents consistently. I find myself doing more damage breaking out of pikachus combos with a single nair than he does with a 2-3 hit string. If the pikachu plays very campy it can be a problem but if you have platforms you can avoid his thundershocks and fireballs I believe clank with them.

60:40 Luigi


: REALLY tough matchup in my opinion. Villagers camp game shines against luigi who really struggles to get in. Slingshot comes out very quick and gyroid takes up alot of space. He is very hard to gimp due to his amazing recovery, while on the other hand we are very easy to gimp for them. If the villager plays right, this matchup can be a nightmare. I find it good to mix up your recovery all the time because eventually it can be very telegraphed. Don't always recover low because that bowling ball will get you.

40:60 Villager