Luigi metagame on a standstill?

[zhao_guang]

Well after watching some vids, I`ve realized that most of the up-and-coming Luigis are doing the same thing. (myself included). Everytime we go in, we aim for the exact same combo, or manuever, and to me, it`s getting us killed

D-air to n-air is really hurting us more than it`s helping. Its gotten insanely predictable, and even though n-air has amazing priority, experience shows its not hard to shield-grab it. If you`re in florida against a Dedede, you just lost a stock. Not only that, but we always go for a u-tilt after. Then, we follow up with more aerials. If each set is 6-9 stocks, and you do that 3-4 times a set, it could cost you if the player is smart enough

Another thing is we love going for d-throw, or u-throw combos. Offline, about 90% of these fail. But we still go for them , as futile as it may be. and we don`t give much effort to predict their airdodges afterwards, or if they jump. we just go all robotic.

Another problem is KOing early. (credits to Biglou for telling me about this). Luigis are great at racking up damage, but if we don`t get that early KO, we could be stuck smashing back and forth, and it could cost us. An angled f-smash or Jab to UpB before 100% is golden, but once it`s above that, we`re in some serious trouble. (Can`t really combo, and everyone is gonna know the smash attacks are coming.)

I dunno, I just feel we`re running on the spot here, and most of the techs or `combos`we`re discussing are really just old ones we`re picking up and dusting off.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, personally, with Mario, I fireball and B-air camp quite a bit. Luigi probably depends on powershielding more to properly pull off certain out of shield stunts though.

D-throw and U-throw combos, have you ever tried waiting out air dodges and going for regrabs? This can really screw over your opponent if they like to air dodge to avoid the combo. If you are really good at these, they will have a new headache deciding whether it is better to do an attack in anticipation of the grab, in which case you can THEN hit them with a U-air combo. This is especially good against characters like Snake and Donkey Kong who hate being juggled.

For those Luigis who like getting grabs, save your B-throw until 140-150%. As a Mario main, I personally save my B-throw til about 160-170% and use it as a last ditch effort for KOs, but Luigi's b-throw kills 20% earlier.

Also, Boss discovered Jab -> D-tilt combo lolz.

 

[zhao_guang]

I dunno, personally, with Mario, I fireball and B-air camp quite a bit. Luigi probably depends on powershielding more to properly pull off certain out of shield stunts though.

D-throw and U-throw combos, have you ever tried waiting out air dodges and going for regrabs? This can really screw over your opponent if they like to air dodge to avoid the combo. If you are really good at these, they will have a new headache deciding whether it is better to do an attack in anticipation of the grab, in which case you can THEN hit them with a U-air combo.

For those Luigis who like getting grabs, save your B-throw until 140-150%. As a Mario main, I personally save my B-throw til about 160-170% and use it as a last ditch effort for KOs, but Luigi's b-throw kills 20% earlier.

I probably could`ve clarified, but we`re not really putting any effort to punish even after we predict the airdodge.

An example: We d-throw, they airdodge, we d-throw, they jump, we do nothing. That`s what most luigi players do. It boils down to that we have to start using all of luigi`s assests, and we need to start playing smarter.

 

[LuigiKing]

Its not that bad I don't think. However I have had to absolutely stop all Dair -> Nair because it just isn't that great after the first time (like your mom HEY OH!). Also, as far as down throw setups go, people aren't creative enough. I have the most success with D-throw when I hyphen smash to chase their air dodge or even just stand there and wait for their reaction to follow it up. You don't always have to go for the Uair combos, you should really do something different each time.

I do the best when I play like a weirdo. At this tourney I went to today I played another Luigi first round (and won), that showed me some really strange but effective stuff to do with him. Most involving green missile lulz. Anyhoo, get creative with fireballs and dsmash combos is all I have to say.

 

[zhao_guang]

Its not that bad I don't think. However I have had to absolutely stop all Dair -> Nair because it just isn't that great after the first time (like your mom HEY OH!). Also, as far as down throw setups go, people aren't creative enough. I have the most success with D-throw when I hyphen smash to chase their air dodge or even just stand there and wait for their reaction to follow it up. You don't always have to go for the Uair combos, you should really do something different each time.

I do the best when I play like a weirdo. At this tourney I went to today I played another Luigi first round (and won), that showed me some really strange but effective stuff to do with him. Most involving green missile lulz. Anyhoo, get creative with fireballs and dsmash combos is all I have to say.

Yeah, but I hope you know that I`m talking about most of the luigis, not just myself

 

[Delta_BP26]

Actually, I've noticed this. So I started going back to old ways, and it works. BBair works very well, I've been experimenting with infinite tornado, and everything that A2ZOMG said is also something to keep in mind, especially the throw mindgames. Hippie knows this, that my playstyle is changing a lot, and I'd say I'm getting better.

Yet, I can't deny the validity of what you're saying. I'm trying to abandon, or at least put away, DNair because I use it so much against hippie and SDWFE that I get shieldgrabbed almost every time, and my u-tilting is so painfully predictable yet I still do it. I had spammed tornado in my early Brawl days, then stopped ENTIRELY, now I use it a lot, and effectively(I love the trick where you mash B at the end of a blocked tornado, so you can escape).

In short, you have to think of little ways to change your game. These little things will all add up and eventually you will be playing a new Luigi.

 

[BigLøu]

We just need to start experimenting more with luigi's playstyle. He has not been tapped into by any means. Start using weird things like bair to ftilt. ( Hits the opponent and prevents shieldgrabbing). IMO fair to nair is much better then dair to nair ( fair to nair makes it much harder to shieldgrab.). I completely agree with everyone that we need to completely reinvent a new luigi.

 

[MorphedChaos]

I like to play Luigi from time to time, and often I use Bairs like I used to for D3 for approaching, once I get a hit in, I use the tornado to keep them in hitstun as they can't react fast enough, then retreat or keep it up with tilts. Can't tell you how many times I've done Tornado to UpB to kill someone, and they never expect it. And when in doubt, try to make it so they can't punish your green missile, and hope for a misfire kill.

 

[hippiedude92]

Its not that bad I don't think. However I have had to absolutely stop all Dair -> Nair because it just isn't that great after the first time (like your mom HEY OH!).LOL Also, as far as down throw setups go, people aren't creative enough. I have the most success with D-throw when I hyphen smash to chase their air dodge or even just stand there and wait for their reaction to follow it up. You don't always have to go for the Uair combos, you should really do something different each time.

I do the best when I play like a weirdo. At this tourney I went to today I played another Luigi first round (and won), that showed me some really strange but effective stuff to do with him. Most involving green missile lulz. Anyhoo, get creative with fireballs and dsmash combos is all I have to say.

Majority of the time I'm more creative with fireballs since it leads to anything as well as Dthrows.

Well after watching some vids, I`ve realized that most of the up-and-coming Luigis are doing the same thing. (myself included). Everytime we go in, we aim for the exact same combo, or manuever, and to me, it`s getting us killed

D-air to n-air is really hurting us more than it`s helping. Its gotten insanely predictable, and even though n-air has amazing priority, experience shows its not hard to shield-grab it. If you`re in florida against a Dedede, you just lost a stock. Not only that, but we always go for a u-tilt after. Then, we follow up with more aerials. If each set is 6-9 stocks, and you do that 3-4 times a set, it could cost you if the player is smart enough

Another thing is we love going for d-throw, or u-throw combos. Offline, about 90% of these fail. But we still go for them , as futile as it may be. and we don`t give much effort to predict their airdodges afterwards, or if they jump. we just go all robotic.

Another problem is KOing early. (credits to Biglou for telling me about this). Luigis are great at racking up damage, but if we don`t get that early KO, we could be stuck smashing back and forth, and it could cost us. An angled f-smash or Jab to UpB before 100% is golden, but once it`s above that, we`re in some serious trouble. (Can`t really combo, and everyone is gonna know the smash attacks are coming.)

I dunno, I just feel we`re running on the spot here, and most of the techs or `combos`we`re discussing are really just old ones we`re picking up and dusting off.

If you've noticed, we stole "those" combos from Void who played Brawl before it came out here But yes our combo's are abit outdated. I know I've said alot of times not to use green missle onstage, but I'd say just do it for the hell of it, for the lulz and see what stuff you can get from. Oh and the Dthrow wait airdodge thing, is just basically airchasing/psuedo chaingrabbing :/ And you don't have to go for upair binds. It really depends whom I'm fighting though.

Actually, I've noticed this. So I started going back to old ways, and it works. BBair works very well, I've been experimenting with infinite tornado, and everything that A2ZOMG said is also something to keep in mind, especially the throw mindgames. Hippie knows this, that my playstyle is changing a lot, and I'd say I'm getting better.

Yet, I can't deny the validity of what you're saying. I'm trying to abandon, or at least put away, DNair because I use it so much against hippie and SDWFE that I get shieldgrabbed almost every time, and my u-tilting is so painfully predictable yet I still do it. I had spammed tornado in my early Brawl days, then stopped ENTIRELY, now I use it a lot, and effectively(I love the trick where you mash B at the end of a blocked tornado, so you can escape).

In short, you have to think of little ways to change your game. These little things will all add up and eventually you will be playing a new Luigi.

Lol. I read you like a book Delta. But this thread definitely refers to you in changing your play style ;D. I just hate getting shoryuken'd by you >< If you implemented buffering in a higher concept then you'd be definitely harder.

 

[ALiAsVee]

Your problem is because most of the Luigis don't break down each and every element of the game like a select few do, they take him for face value with all of the rehased Void combos and what not. We all know Luigi can combo, it's time to learn how to play smart. This isn't a character problem, it's a player problem.

Luigi isn't like bloody sonic with 1000's of AT's, hell even Mario has more AT's than us. Luigi is purely back to basics; you take everything you know from all aspects of your experience and put it all to work here. You go over match ups, stage counters, approaching/zoning games like some of the people I know do and that's how you develop a character. The only thing preventing any advance of knowledge is the community at large, there is nothing wrong with the character.

This isn't directed towards anyone in particular, we all have the same problem.

 

[Icyo]

Your problem is because most of the Luigis don't break down each and every element of the game like a select few do, they take him for face value with all of the rehased Void combos and what not. We all know Luigi can combo, it's time to learn how to play smart. This isn't a character problem, it's a player problem.

Luigi isn't like bloody sonic with 1000's of AT's, hell even Mario has more AT's than us. Luigi is purely back to basics; you take everything you know from all aspects of your experience and put it all to work here. You go over match ups, stage counters, approaching/zoning games like some of the people I know do and that's how you develop a character. The only thing preventing any advance of knowledge is the community at large, there is nothing wrong with the character.

This isn't directed towards anyone in particular, we all have the same problem.

That post made me think hard.

 

[TreK]

Woot Luigi boards discovered Diddy's autopilot syndrome \o/

I'm actually working on my buffering and on craq walks. These two things are too good with luigi. I already mastered SHADs but i always forget to fast fall them.

 

[Bobbery]

The brilliance I find about Luigi is his simplicity. I don't memorize combos or execute the same ones. I think that Luigi has a corresponding move to nearly any combo follow up options. Barraging opponents with the quick smartly chosen moves belonging to Luigi is, at least in my experience, one of the only ways to go. Luigi isn't a character you can just learn his combos and "ATs" and hope you get somewhere. You have to carefully take a look at all of his moves (which IMO, I don't think he has any bad moves, which is a huge asset to this playstyle) and remember how they can be used. It's very instinctive, I think. Just go with the flow.

All in all, be one with Luigi

 

[kong_korps]

D-air to n-air is really hurting us more than it`s helping. Its gotten insanely predictable, and even though n-air has amazing priority, experience shows its not hard to shield-grab it. If you`re in florida against a Dedede, you just lost a stock. Not only that, but we always go for a u-tilt after. Then, we follow up with more aerials. If each set is 6-9 stocks, and you do that 3-4 times a set, it could cost you if the player is smart enough

instead of dair>nair wut i just do is dair> DI backwards fair twice to see if they really want to shield grab me, if they do then i spam fireballs so they come to me.

which leads to me shieldgrabing/spotdodge grap them to either dthrow>uair>nair2>jab>dthrow>uair>uair (if at low percenteges)

OR dthrow>wait for airdoge>dthrow>wait for airdodge>(they realize by this point wut i'm doing so i take a 50-50) by dthrow to a UAIR instead and proceed to the nair2>***>dthrow>uair>uair.

its like everytime you do a dthrow at low percentege you have a 50% chance of following another movie its either uair or grab.

at high percentage its like a 33.3% chance cause they either atttack (usually a sex kick), DJ, or airdodge.


hope it helps anyone

p.s. the *** = jab, for some reason they keep censoring it lol

 

[TheMann]

Dair to nair is still safe against some characters if you space it and don't jump right into your opponents arms to get grabbed lol. If spaced correctly nair will push SOME characters out of shield grabbing range. (D3 if definitely not one of those characters)

Also dair to nair is a good shield destroyer. If someones shield is low enough it doesn't matter if they shield the nair it will shield poke, and lead to strings and alot of damage if you play your cards right.

So yea dair to nair has its uses. Just don't over use it. Just wanted to add that bit of info

 

[WIGI]

i think dair-nair was just the very basic fundamentals of luigi that we all staretd with, before buffering and all that, that it became so over used and predictable, but it was usefull when we first figured it out, means it can still be usefull now. in moderation.

 

[ALiAsVee]

Dair to nair is still safe against some characters if you space it and don't jump right into your opponents arms to get grabbed lol. If spaced correctly nair will push SOME characters out of shield grabbing range. (D3 if definitely not one of those characters)

Also dair to nair is a good shield destroyer. If someones shield is low enough it doesn't matter if they shield the nair it will shield poke, and lead to strings and alot of damage if you play your cards right.

So yea dair to nair has its uses. Just don't over use it. Just wanted to add that bit of info

If you do a fast falled Dair to Nair in the air too, it usually works if the Nair hits right before they touch the ground. Low percents.

 

[zhao_guang]

Dair to nair is still safe against some characters if you space it and don't jump right into your opponents arms to get grabbed lol. If spaced correctly nair will push SOME characters out of shield grabbing range. (D3 if definitely not one of those characters)

Also dair to nair is a good shield destroyer. If someones shield is low enough it doesn't matter if they shield the nair it will shield poke, and lead to strings and alot of damage if you play your cards right.

So yea dair to nair has its uses. Just don't over use it. Just wanted to add that bit of info

It does still have it's uses. But as you said, don't overuse it, because it's predictable and fairly easy to stop

I took dentedglass's advice and I started to play around with f-air to n-air. It's not as strong, but I find it is harder to shieldgrab, and it seems easier to combo into the n-air, at least in the air.

Also, can anyone reliably pull off the SH triple aerial? (f-air, f-air, n-air). I've seen it done before, but only once or twice.

 

[chic]

fair nair.. i need to try that :D

anyone else use rising tornado on the ground? seems to set up for some nice nair combos plus it really catches ppl off guard

 

[Delvro]

I really must agree that it's the really small things that we need to change to make Luigi better than he is now. For the past few months I've played autopilot Luigi, and while it worked in September, people are learning how to fight Luigi, at least in Kentucky.

For example, I kept losing to my friend, a local ROB player, due to too many DNairs. So instead I would shorthop Dair and "hover", wait for a response (likely a shield), and then Double Jump away. What you're doing is observing their typical reaction from your approach, and conditioning them to do something else. I've found that after this simple maneuver, oftentimes they will be vulnerable to a FF ground tornado or even a fireball (I think it's because people don't seem to like shielding more than once without trying to counterattack)

 

[CR4SH]

Del, teach me how to beat mr. eric. He keeps beating me, it's frustrating!

Rob is too hard! Dsmash is too good!

 

[Arty]

After a Dair I usually like to fast fall and do the AAA combo. Sometimes AA then Grab. Or Fastfall Tornado. I rarely use Nair after the Dair b/c everyone expects it.

 

[Delvro]

After a Dair I usually like to fast fall and do the AAA combo. Sometimes AA then Grab. Or Fastfall Tornado. I rarely use Nair after the Dair b/c everyone expects it.

Yes, buffering jabs after a Dair FFAD is great, but I'd advise against AA grabs and stick to A grabs, they give less chance for a dodge, I think.

 

[hippiedude92]

It's mostly because the first hit of jab comes out at frame 2. Will anyone react quickly enough to a frame 2 attack?

 

[Nefarious B]

Have you guys tried playing similar to Marth's fair double SH spam game with either fair or bair? Fair is so fast that you can really space well and it's a lot tougher to get grabbed, although the range is really bad compared to Marth's.

 

[kigbariom]

The range is the main reason we don't do that. It's not too strong either. True that is is fast and you can space well but it isn't very effective.