Lucas General Discussion

[D e l t a]

As much as people say Lucas' defensive / OoS options are limited / bad, I tend to disagree now.

Note that all his OoS options are situational. At times you will need to select exactly 1 option, whereas other times you have a few choices OoS. Also be conscious of the fact that sometimes holding shield is better than trying to retaliate.

==

His WD OoS covers lots of space and you can do anything from there (magnet, grab, tilts, smashes, aerials).

All aerials save for Bair OoS are very good situationally. His Fair covers a decent range in front, Uair goes deceptively far behind him, and Dair works well at very close ranges (punishes dash attacks and poorly spaced attacks up close). Be careful when doing DJC aerials OoS not to get hit by a followup attack from the opponent, thereby losing your double jump.

His roll isn't that terrible and now that every spot dodge / roll is normalized, Lucas' roll is slightly improved as a result, adding to his defense.

 

[Kipcom]

But I just wanna grab like all the cool Marth kids

 

[D e l t a]

But I just wanna grab like all the cool Marth kids

stfu you don't get to be a privileged nerd ._.

 

[NTHPlayr]

As much as people say Lucas' defensive / OoS options are limited / bad, I tend to disagree now.

Note that all his OoS options are situational. At times you will need to select exactly 1 option, whereas other times you have a few choices OoS. Also be conscious of the fact that sometimes holding shield is better than trying to retaliate.

==

His WD OoS covers lots of space and you can do anything from there (magnet, grab, tilts, smashes, aerials).

All aerials save for Bair OoS are very good situationally. His Fair covers a decent range in front, Uair goes deceptively far behind him, and Dair works well at very close ranges (punishes dash attacks and poorly spaced attacks up close). Be careful when doing DJC aerials OoS not to get hit by a followup attack from the opponent, thereby losing your double jump.

His roll isn't that terrible and now that every spot dodge / roll is normalized, Lucas' roll is slightly improved as a result, adding to his defense.

Why would people say that his OoS options are bad? I think they are decent. Also I disagree on Lucas's roll being improved. To me, Lucas' roll still stays the same. Explain.

 

[D e l t a]

Why would people say that his OoS options are bad? I think they are decent. Also I disagree on Lucas's roll being improved. To me, Lucas' roll still stays the same. Explain.

Lupin above, in addition to many people I have talked to, say that Lucas' defensive options are bad / weak / etc. I think Lucas has some of the best defensive / OoS options in the game aside from a lack of range, which can be made up easily by his 4 frame WD OoS. I'd say Lucas' options are comparable to Luigi if he could DJC. All his aerials save for Bair, are frame 4-5 and he has a frame 2 PK Burst.

Sorry for the mis-information on his rolls. Double checked and saw they actually weren't changed in 3.6 full. After being away from the game a while (haven't played much since 3.6 full dropped) and playing my friend and others a lot recently this weekend, they seemed better. Maybe it's because I'm using them more intelligently now.

 

[NTHPlayr]

Oh okay thanks. I was confused for a bit when you were talking about his rolls.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

lucas OOS options aren't bad, they're just hard to get used to if you usually play a different character.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I think zair > usmash can kill jiggs at around 70 and works on alot of other characters at higher percentages. against floaties it could be especially good if lucas players did this.

 

[D e l t a]

Pretty sure they can jump out because of the extremely low hitstun. Now Dair->Usmash on the other hand kills reliably w/o OU charge around 55%.

Aside from that, Zair starts combos pretty well due to the weird knockback and angles. Not to mention you can bait their options and cover landings from a sizable distance away

 

[Tragic Magic]

Is there already a known way to use grounded magnet into up-smash?

 

[ilysm]

@ Tragic Magic To my knowledge grounded magnet into jump-cancel up-smash will work on heavyweights at mid percentages, though you can't count on it killing unless you have an OU charge. Otherwise grounded magnet -> wavedash back -> running up-smash/DACUS (depending on weight and DI) can work under some circumstances. Other more knowledgeable Lucases please correct me if I'm wrong.

Just read what Delta says below me.

 

[Tragic Magic]

@ Tragic Magic To my knowledge grounded magnet into jump-cancel up-smash will work on heavyweights at mid percentages, though you can't count on it killing unless you have an OU charge. Otherwise grounded magnet -> wavedash back -> running up-smash/DACUS (depending on weight and DI) can work under some circumstances. Other more knowledgeable Lucases please correct me if I'm wrong.

Gotcha thanks man!

 

[D e l t a]

grounded magnet relies on the opponent holding full in (the direction Lucas is facing) which is terrible DI since you want to DI almost everything Lucas does behind him. Magnet into JC Upsmash has to be frame perfect and usually happens as a result of accidentally messing up Magnet -> Uair. Magnet -> wavedash upsmash is better as you have a better chance of landing the move and there's way more leniency. Plus, it's easier to see if you can land an upsmash or if you should go for a combo instead.

tl;dr magnet -> wavedash back -> upsmash is better than magnet -> JC Upsmash

 

[AntSSB]

Any ideas on what to do against platform camping? I can't seem to get around it.

 

[D e l t a]

Few ideas on this:

Approach and call them out.

• If they're dash dancing on a platform, get under and shark them with Uair/Fair or bait them to drop down and punish with Utilt/Ftilt/Fsmash
• If they're a DJC character like Ness / Yoshi and doing waveland movement, wave landing takes approximately 5-10 frames before they can act again. Wait till they're just about done moving forward towards you, then approach and punish them going backwards where they can't attack at all for a number of frames due to waveland end lag.

Wait.

• Wear down their patience. Probably the better strategy since Lucas' low range and poor upward disjoint isn't great for safely approaching platform camping opponents.

Go to the opposite platform and shoot projectiles, forcing them to approach. PKT1 is sometimes safe if you're far enough away and cancel before they come near you.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

So as I was playing about with Lucas, I figured out this cool tech. It turned out the magnet pulling so nothing really new. I am also aware that they nerfed it a couple updates ago. I think this was to nerf his recovery. He could kind of use because that and his neutral are the only things that are weak, and could be a minor buff to both. I say his recovery is weak, just because it is next to impossible to sweet spot and you will most likely take a half charged Fsmash. Anyways am I dreaming, or does it go further after a B reversed freezy, or is it the same distance? This tech is still in the game and be used if you go like really really far out and are recovering as it still gives a decent horizontal boost to his recovery.

 

[Kipcom]

Magnet Pull has nothing to do with recovery because you need running momentum first.

As for the distance, I don't think the direction you face matters and both directions will go the same distance. I could be wrong since I've never actually bothered looking to see if there was a difference.

 

[D e l t a]

What Kip said. I don't think there's a difference

I say his recovery is weak, just because it is next to impossible to sweet spot and you will most likely take a half charged Fsmash.

Lol no

His recovery is amazing. He has a mid-high priority PKT2, PKT1 can't be absorbed easily like Ness' and at times gimps super hard when they try to ledge guard you, and tether still has some crazy range. I sweet spot the ledge from multiple angles 9/10 times every game. It's one of those things you have to practice and it won't come naturally.

If you're always missing sweetspots and landing on-stage into smash attacks, just pull a Mango and recover high. You can still trick your opponent by fading back and thru fast falls

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Eh, I guess I'm just used to using fox, I'll give it some more time. His tether range is far from crazy though.

 

[D e l t a]

If i had a screen capture in dolphin I'd be able to show you. If you look at the max distance tether can reach in debug mode it's absurd still. Not like Samus by any means, but still a great recovery option when you look at the rest of the cast. You can also delay your tether timing by using it immediately from jumps or a few frames after your invincibility on air dodge runs out.

Lucas' UpB is more difficult to sweetspot than Fox's yes; however, he can still achieve those same angles. I hope to release a video that documents my compendium of Lucas tech & timings. Apologies in advance since I know it'll take a while for this to happen because it's me and I'm lazy / busy with working & life :/

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Are there any cool footstool combos with Lucas? I figured out you can do a Mag into footstool with no/bad DI into a dair jab reset into a combo, but I can't find anything else.

 

[D e l t a]

Back in 3.5 when I could mash footstool, I would Dthrow to footstool then Dair -> missed tech punish with a Nair that could sometimes lead into DACUA (my best combo for styling), or fast fall Bair to get a kill / send them offstage. It was a cool mixup at the very least

Kip might have better footstool combos

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

I'll keep messing around, but thanks for the input.

 

[D e l t a]

Running the PM tourney at TBH5 this weekend. I'll try to MM or play friendlies with as many top players as possible on stream. I hope someone can take over TO'ing so I can commentate lol

 

[Krumpberry]

What's the point of doing DJC PKF when I could just SH it?

 

[prem]

its faster so you can spam it more.

 

[Krumpberry]

but it's hard D:. I can do DJC aerials easy, but for the life of me I can't do DJC PKF.

 

[prem]

Realistically it's not that big of a difference. Whenever i play lucas I hardly actually DJC freeze cause as a neutral tool it works the same regardless, and I haven't gotten to the point of me using it in any combos besides a tech read. You get the same follow ups if the freeze hits regardless if you SH wait or if you DJC it so its just the matter of how fast you want it to come out

 

[zen-bz-]

SH B-reverse PKF works pretty similarly and achieves pretty much the same goal as a DJC PKF in my opinion.

 

[Kipcom]

SH PK Freeze and DJC PK Freeze are mostly the same, though DJC PKF gives you the added benefit of quickly shifting your moment while throwing out a projectile (ex: running forward and then feinting with wavebounce DJC PKF which sends you backwards).

Though DJC also has more risk to it since people who know how to handle PKF will just hit you as you double jump. You gain something and lose something, so take your pick.

 

[Krumpberry]

Ok cool, I'll just stick to SH PKF then.

 

[D e l t a]

On top of what Kip said, DJC PKF allows you to use a PKF closer to the ground rather than having to SH PKF -> fast fall. The move doesn't come out any faster, but it enables you to be quicker in neutral. If you're spaced correctly, the opponent shouldn't be in range to hit you out of your double jump in the first place.

SH PKF isn't bad, just slow. It's one of Lucas' easiest tech options comparatively. Doctor X gets away with SH PKF and he does fairly well in tournament.

 

[ilysm]

Krumpberry I'd recommend having DJCPKF under your belt all the same, since done correctly it can cit a crouching Kirby. It's a pretty threatening low-to-the-ground projectile and being able to do it at different heights/speeds allows for mixups. If you're having trouble, I'd recommend giving custom controls a shot. I used to pull my hair out trying to DJCPKF fast enough; now I have special set to and I just input -> -> + really fast. It's become super easy, and since I never use R for anything else it doesn't mix me up in Melee.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Running the PM tourney at TBH5 this weekend. I'll try to MM or play friendlies with as many top players as possible on stream. I hope someone can take over TO'ing so I can commentate lol

I can't go I live in Colorado. Yeah I hope you can play!

 

[Krumpberry]

I use both of my triggers so it'd be very hard to relearn. I'll just stick with SH PKF. I'll be like the legendary shineless Fox.

 

[Kipcom]

Setting triggers to special sounds silly af lol.

Y/X -> Y/X -> Forward B does the job just fine.

Though since we're talking about custom control setups, I guess I'll throw out my setup as a recommendation for others since I think it's pretty optimal for Lucas.

Tap Jump: On
- Attack
- Special
- Jump
- Footstool / Up - Taunt
- Jump
- Shield
- Grab


X and Y controls can be switched depending on which button you use to jump. Personally, I use Y to jump since it's closer to the special button and the A button, so it's like a triangle of buttons rather than a straight line with BAX.

The same applies to L and R. Though if you shield with one trigger and then wavedash with the other, my setup won't cut it for you (I prefer wavedashing OoS with one trigger). Anyway, the reason I have a trigger set to jump is so that I can do certain DJC aerials and gain the most horizontal momentum without having to claw the controller. Doing a high DJC dair with tap jump, you can still shift your momentum a bit if you move the stick fast enough, but clawing (or my trigger setup) makes it better. Basically makes DJC dair and DJC uair better for when you want to quickly change momentum. It also lets you do rising aerials while moving in the opposite direction easier (ex: Rising Fair while moving backwards). It's basically my way to avoid any clawing nonsense, but getting the same benefit.

Whichever button you don't use for jump, just set that s*** to footstool. There's absolutely no reason not to do it. Then you guys can be hype footstool gods like me.

Tap Jump On for the quickest and lowest DJC aerials to the ground and out of magnet, obviously.

I prefer this setup the most since there aren't any real negatives, only a couple benefits, and that it's consistent and doesn't interfere with defaults controls to where it would mess up anything when I'm playing Melee.

 

[D e l t a]

While it may take getting used to, I found this works extremely comfortably for playing Lucas (and most characters in PM)

Tap Jump: On
- Attack
- Special
- Grab
- Jump
- Shield
- Attack
- Jump

Z jump allows me to JC grabs easier with Y grab and I can have a finger on Jump and Special at the same time. So SH magnets, DJC PKF, etc. It also allows me to have a finger on Jump and my thumb on Cstick for aerials.

R attack allows me to DACUS easily. Rather than set to grab, a whiffed dash attack isn't nearly as painful as a whiffed [dash] grab. Plus I can claw method the Gatling combo by using R and A buttons when I play Falco or G&W.

The rest are default.

 

[Kipcom]

I used to play with Attack set to a trigger, but ever since they changed the DACUS window to a universal 2 frame window, I just decided to stick with Z.
I think Narq has the same setup as yours, except he uses X to grab, I think.

 

[Scraket]

I like default. Sometimes with X to footstool. For djc pkf I just do Y-Y-SideB.
Oh and I use Down taunt because with the OU charge the sparkles linger for a bit when Taunt canceling

 

[Tragic Magic]

How do you guys best deal with Luigi? I have someone I play against at my locals who plays Ike, Jigglypuff, and Luigi. I can beat all his other characters except Luigi. Any tips would be great!