Lucas General Discussion

[Eisen]

This is leaning towards a matchup discussion post, but I think it could be applied to Lucas in general.

Lately, I've encountered a lot of characters who take Lucas' amazing pressure and combos and just immediately throw its viability out the window with something dumb like crouch cancelled downsmash. Specifically, like, 90% of the cast. Which got me to thinking: Lucas nor Ness have good CC dsmashes (Lucas' is slow and Ness' starts behind him), though they do have downb. I don't CC a lot; is CC magnet legit? Or is it kind of bad?

I dunno, it just kind of pissed me off though to constantly pressure Mario efficiently after I FINALLY get in, only to have the opposing player just press down and smash mid nair or something to that effect. I've read and punished it a few times, but as mentioned, most of the characters in Project M have ridiculously fast and strong CC-dsmash, and more and more I see that as peoples' typical way of dealing with Lucas' strong pressure.

Is it supposed to be this extreme? I don't think Lucas should necessarily get free roam of a character just because he gets in on their shield or something, but when cc dsmash becomes the go-to option for exponentially more opponents more than any other option, it's just... kind of annoying. Lucas has plenty of good options besides aggro af shield pressure djc wombo combo, but even so, I feel gimped by this mechanic (CCing), and have to wonder, at the least, why our dsmash isn't nearly as fast, despite our "fast character" archetype (is the CC magnet I mentioned the reason for this?).

 

[NeonApophis]

You don't have to nair into crouching opponents; just do something else to beat their CC. The release hitbox of magnet can't be CCed, and you can do other things like grab, dair, space fair depending on the opponent, or retreat and pkf. I'm not sure that dsmash is slow just because CC magnet is fast and good, but Lucas doesn't really need a fast CC dsmash. He has magnet and dtilt for starting combos out of a CC, so it's fine for dsmash to just be strong and slow.

 

[Nguz95]

Djc retreating fair is super good for baiting crouching or shielding characters.

 

[EIiitti]

Djc retreating fair is super good for baiting crouching or shielding characters.

If only that was humanly possible for both sides without having the dreaded tap-jump on...

 

[Nguz95]

Sometime you gotta choose between the lesser of two evils. I personally really like tap jump, but only because it makes djc stuff much easier.
Edit: i don't think that's the right saying...

 

[Kally Wally]

[collapse=Search your feelings...]

You know it to be true...

 

[EIiitti]

Well, Z jump and stuff would obviously work. I'm not going to scrap all the muscle memory with B jump and X special though.

Actually... When I think about it, I could swap Y for Grab and Z for Jump. I just might do that. Thanks for the suggestion! :3

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I've tried tap jump for DJC, it wasn't pretty.

 

[thebaum64]

I've tried tap jump for DJC, it wasn't pretty.

ya... same here... was not what people call pretty lol

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

it feels awkward to jump up a button and then tap Up to jump again. If it REALLY holds me back I'll learn how. The only tough thing is retreating Fair

 

[SixSaw]

Sounds like you're doing it wrong. To DJC with tap jump, press the jump button and simultaneously begin moving the stick upwards in a quarter circle motion. In doing so you're effectively buffering a jump input, which makes the timing for perfect DJCs incredibly lenient. Tap jump is also invaluable for things like doing DJC'd aerials out of magnet and overall it is simply an objective improvement to your technical potential, provided you know how to handle it. There's really no good reason not to use it.

 

[Burnsy]

While I don't use tap jump for DJC exclusively, sometimes you need to just do it as fast as possible and I can't do that without tap jump, especially if I want to add retreating/approaching momentum to it.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I can chain DJC Fairs moving forward and jumps out Magnet no problem, it's really just retreating Fair, haha. I dunno, it just FEELS awkward. I might give it a run after an upcoming tourney, before then I can't really afford to try and get into it.

 

[Infil]

So I'm looking to mess around with Lucas, and I looked up how to do his DACUS by doing dash attack (using c stick down), then immediately up smash with analog up + Z. This seems to work just fine even though my Z button is set to grab. Others said that this same technique works with characters like Marth, so I tried it, but I always got grab instead; I had to grip my controller claw-style and try the smash attack with A, then it worked just fine. Some people were saying that if you got a dashing grab, then you did the DACUS correctly but used a grab button.

Is there a programming override that makes DACUS work with Z grab *only* for Lucas? I couldn't find anything in the changelog about this, but I suspect it's true (and very helpful).

 

[Lukingordex]

I'm going to a PM tourney tomorrow, If anyone would like to watch the stream here it is: http://www.twitch.tv/x_revolution

I'm probably going to use Lucas most of the time, I may try to use Yoshi or Roy sometimes.

@ Burnsy : I've been using Zairs a lot more and i'm also trying to edgeguard better (i'm still not that good at it but i'm doing my best to improve), If any of my matches get recorded I'll post here to receive more advice.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Is there a programming override that makes DACUS work with Z grab *only* for Lucas? I couldn't find anything in the changelog about this, but I suspect it's true (and very helpful).

Nope. It depends on the character. Character's like Snake, ROB, Lucas have a jump that allows them to DACUS with Z, characters like Marth and Game and Watch have 1 Frame for the USmash input, and if you do Z at that point you'll get a grab just like whenever you buffer a Grab/press it too soon.

 

[Infil]

Nope. It depends on the character. Character's like Snake, ROB, Lucas have a jump that allows them to DACUS with Z, characters like Marth and Game and Watch have 1 Frame for the USmash input, and if you do Z at that point you'll get a grab just like whenever you buffer a Grab/press it too soon.

It's the jump that matters? Or the dash attack? It would make sense if these characters' dash attacks were slower/more cancelable or something than Marth's, but they're not jumping at all?

 

[Kally Wally]

Jumpstart is the only determining factor for timing, as far as I know. Distance is based on the properties of the dash attack. Traction values are also likely involved.

 

[Xcite]

Anyone have any good edge guarding techniques with Lucas? I personally like to stay on the ledge and try to predict the opponent's recovery and sweetspot them wait a bair or dair (mostly bair though). But I feel this is extremely inefficient and risky to do. Suggestions are appreciated.

 

[Nguz95]

Dsmash is an excellent ledgeguard. Low angle fsmash is also excellent.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Definitely DSmash, Spacies pretty much can't avoid it and the fact you can do a second hit with it is excellent. The angle it sends opponents at is perfect for ledge games. I should try using PKT on fast fallers/at low percents because I feel like it has potential for off stage edge guards

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

Who here plays a nasty Lucas? Besides Nasty.

 

[Nguz95]

Neon, Burnsy, Calabrel, Yars.

 

[NeonApophis]

Oracle is also really good. Hammertime and PinkFresh are improving and could be pretty threatening in the future.

 

[Nguz95]

I forgot about oracle... I was under the impression that he dropped lucas. Il love pink fresh. So simple, yet elegant.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Aw jeez, I'm not worth mentioning compared to any of those guys, haha. I AM going to a tourney this Friday, so we'll see who all shows up. I do know that some people that COULD show up include Chillen, Chu, and Redd, so it'll be interesting to see who all makes it out.

 

[FeedReed]

Does PKF cancel even if it's just short hopped? Or do you HAVE to djc it to make it cancel?

 

[NeonApophis]

It doesn't really cancel at all. Lol. There's still a decent amount of landing lag, but it's short enough that you can combo off the hit pretty well. But the amount of landing lag is the same for sh and djc.

 

[Nguz95]

Aw jeez, I'm not worth mentioning compared to any of those guys, haha. I AM going to a tourney this Friday, so we'll see who all shows up. I do know that some people that COULD show up include Chillen, Chu, and Redd, so it'll be interesting to see who all makes it out.

Are you going to that one in Fredrick?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Fredericksburg, homie. That's where I'm stationed, haha.

Yeah, I'm def going, I know the place personally (For Yugioh) the guy that owns the place and the dude that's hosting (who's an OG player/TO) It'd be pretty bad if I didn't show up.

 

[Nguz95]

Sorry about that, Fredrick is in MD. My bad...
Good luck man! That's a little far for me, but it sounds like it's right in your backyard!

 

[Muck]

does anyone know any combos for f throw

 

[Nguz95]

Fthrow can set up dsmash edgeguards depending on the opponent.

 

[Zeallyx]

Lucas looks like a lot of fun.

What are Lucas' bread and butter combo's?
And, as it will most likely be part of the answer on my question, DJCing is basically canceling your second jump into an aerial/special by input jump twice and then the desired attack, right?

 

[Nguz95]

I'm going to answer your second question first, as it's easier to answer.

That's exactly what djc is. I recommend using tap jump to do your second jump, as it's almost impossible to do the rising aerial with tap jump. If you hold the jump button while you input the attack, you will rise while doing the aerial instead of dropping to the ground.

As for your first question, there are a ton of combos you can do with him, but some really basic ones are:
nair-magnet-wd back-any aerial.
weak fair stings into magnet-wd back-any aerial
dthrow-bair/uair (if you uair you can follow up with a bair on fast fallers)
dthrow-usmash (super di dependent, so don't rely on this)
jab links into grab super easily.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch of them, but Lucas excels at free flowing combos. His combo tree is more diverse than any other character in the cast, so don't be afraid to experiment.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Dair > Usmash and DJC PKF > DACUS are really important, but otherwise, just go with the flow.

Don't think about BnB's, just actively think of what to do next.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Anyone got Kirby experience?

EDIT: I didn't realize I was the last to post, sorry about that.

 

[Nguz95]

Play really lame and grab him a lot. Stay away so you don't have to deal with the jank.

 

[FeedReed]

I was playing around with (magnet)->(reverse djc pkf) today. Seems to be useful because sometimes it can be hard to follow up on a magnet. If you hit them with a pkf you're options are petty open.

 

[NeonApophis]

I was playing around with (magnet)->(reverse djc pkf) today. Seems to be useful because sometimes it can be hard to follow up on a magnet. If you hit them with a pkf you're options are petty open.

It's actually not that useful, since the pkf doesn't connect very reliably for a lot of their DI choices. However, it looks really cool and I'm working on using it more. haha
Specifically, aerial magnet -> djc turnaround pkf then either dacus if you moved away from them before the pkf, or something like magnet, up tilt, or grab if you land close to them.