Lucas General Discussion

[FeedReed]

It's actually not that useful, since the pkf doesn't connect very reliably for a lot of their DI choices. However, it looks really cool and I'm working on using it more. haha
Specifically, aerial magnet -> djc turnaround pkf then either dacus if you moved away from them before the pkf, or something like magnet, up tilt, or grab if you land close to them.

Truth ^

Yeah it looks really cool. Especially when you hit your opponent right as they hit the ground for a pkf-reset.

 

[Burnsy]

Zair for most underused Lucas move?

 

[Zeallyx]

I'm going to answer your second question first, as it's easier to answer.

That's exactly what djc is. I recommend using tap jump to do your second jump, as it's almost impossible to do the rising aerial with tap jump. If you hold the jump button while you input the attack, you will rise while doing the aerial instead of dropping to the ground.

As for your first question, there are a ton of combos you can do with him, but some really basic ones are:
nair-magnet-wd back-any aerial.
weak fair stings into magnet-wd back-any aerial
dthrow-bair/uair (if you uair you can follow up with a bair on fast fallers)
dthrow-usmash (super di dependent, so don't rely on this)
jab links into grab super easily.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch of them, but Lucas excels at free flowing combos. His combo tree is more diverse than any other character in the cast, so don't be afraid to experiment.

Dair > Usmash and DJC PKF > DACUS are really important, but otherwise, just go with the flow.

Don't think about BnB's, just actively think of what to do next.

Awesome, thanks guys!

 

[Xcite]

Zair for most underused Lucas move?

Nah. That's second. PK Burst is the most underused move.

 

[Burnsy]

Touche, my friend

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

It's really scary using OU Burst, because of the little lift you get and the pause in the air as well as halting of momentum, you have to really commit to it hitting lest you risk losing OU entirely. I do wanna mess with killing off the top with it on stages like Yoshi's Island.

 

[Nguz95]

I've used it as a follow up to dthrow. If you hit them correctly, you can float alongside them and follow up with an aerial of your choosing.

 

[Burnsy]

I've noticed that before, I thought it was a fluke but come to think of it, the fact that Burst stalls you in the air close to them might make it possible to reliably position yourself for a follow up off it.

And yea Yars, its fair to say that while its one of his most underused moves, its also one of the most difficult ones to use efficiently and in the right situation.

 

[Nguz95]

I've used it as a way to use dthrow against floaties and fast-fallers. On floaties it gets them before they can get out of hitstun. On fast-fallers it can get them before they can hit the ground.

 

[Kally Wally]

I've used Burst to good effect as an OOS option, but I also barely play Lucas anymore.

 

[nimigoha]

Hey guys, I'm new to Lucas but I've finally settled on him as a main after seeing all the crazy combo potential he has.

I apologize in advance for this. But I have a few questions.

1) What is the benefit of a DJC PKF? Does it just bring you back to the ground faster? Does it give you more horizontal momentum towards your opponent for the follow-up? Why would I use it over SH PKF?

2) I can occasionally land the Aerial PKF and have it travel the length of a grounded one. Would it be worth nailing the timing to consistently do this?

3) Should I attempt to use any sort of wavebouncing with the PKF? I like to use it while 'running away' from an opponent and then I'm suddenly in their face with a PKF. I don't Bstick so I do it with the smash left+B then right or vice-versa.

4) I guess as a follow-up, should use any Magnet Pulling? I find it hard to keep track of all the possibilities (which way you were facing when you started the PKF, which way you were facing when it finished, if it was wavebounced, which side the Magnet was facing, how long you hold it) as they all seem to do different things.

5) I've found different things, but as I gather it, is PSI Magnet only Jump Cancellable during the ending frames, that is when B has been let go?

6) Do you find that DACUS secures a healthy portion of kills? As soon as I learned how to do it and got it consistent(I use L for Attack and it's super easy) I found myself killing with it like 1/5 times.

7) Do you find it easier to approach with PKF or with a Nair? Just generally speaking, I know matchups will alter this.

8) Is it bad that I'm super reliant on grabs? I rely on them a lot to start my combos. I'm trying to get my SHFFL timing perfect so I can just go for that, but I always default to grabbing.

9) Should use Uair a lot? Is juggling with it something I should try to abuse? The DJC makes it pretty easy to use.

10) Should I also take advantage of the invincibility on the OU Burst? I find it risky to use as an attack because if I miss I of course lose the charge.

11) Has Magnet Cancelling been removed? I see videos of it in vBrawl but I tried to do it and was unable to do anything after absorbing a projectile.

And a casual question:

12) Is there any jargon for Lucas's moves, specifically PKF or PSI Magnet? I personally like 'snowball', and I'm a fan of 'pulse' (used however you would use 'shine' like wavepulse, pulsestall, etc. and I prefer pulsepull to magnet pull) although I've seen people just call it 'magnet'.

Thanks so much for taking any time to answer!

 

[Lukingordex]

I'm currently using Zair a lot, I though the other Lucases were using it a lot too.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

1) The amount of you lag you'll deal with is the same no matter what, so technically speaking it's most advantageous in terms of followups to be as close to the ground as you can to get ready for a follow up ASAP. The basic principle of it is: If you short hop it instead, unless you time it right (which would be slower than just DJC) then you suffer the immobility in the air while you're falling (the distance between you and the ground when you start it) AND the cooldown of landing with PKF (Which, admittedly is very low) Since it's faster to do a DJC one, you should always go with it when you can if the purpose is to apply pressure/start to get closer.

It also allows you to combo into DACUS depending on how far away you are~

2) Pretty sure there's like 1 Frame to do this in, while it would probably be good to learn it, it's probably not worth it so early on in the character's lifetime to worry about it since the distance boost isn't THAT large

3) It's always a good idea to mix it up!

4) This is the thing where you fly in a direction of PKF, right? If you want to be flashy/have the positioning for it I suppose you COULD, but I think it's more for movement/being cool looking than anything. This'll probably be more of a player by player technique.

5) Sounds right. At least on the ground, it feels like you can jump sooner after an aerial Magnet, I'd like if a different Lucas could chime in here.

6) DACUS is a very powerful technique, so if you get good mileage out of it then that's definitely good. However, never settle into tunnel visioning into a solitary kill move. It's important you keep track of the options you have because there are plenty of other ways to kill with Lucas.

7) Nair isn't the BEST approach option you have, to be honest. PKF is definitely good since the distance you're at when you do it makes it fairly safe and Lucas is quick enough to get good confirms off of it. Other than PKF, a well spaced DJC Fair is also very good but you should always mix-up your approaches so that you don't get baited/read.

8) With all the options Lucas has, you should never be really reliant on anything However, if you CAN get a grab it's important you note player tendencies and punish them with a grab when you can since Lucas has a great grab and throws. At the very least, it would be a good idea to switch between a jump-cancelled grab and dash grab, since they are fairly different in terms of when you do use them. If you have faith in getting that grab, then go for broke!

9) Uair is stupid good and has a very large hitbox, so you have to the potential to stuff people as they're falling. It's great in juggles since, even with DI, it's pretty simple to follow up and branches out into a variety of different moves. You sure won't be killing with it, I can tell you that much. It does link into itself pretty well.

10) Invincibility is one of the best parts, outside of the insane startup and full-body hitbox. The risks, while there, come with pretty good rewards. This is one of the hardest moves to integrate into your regular play, but it does have its uses. One of the easier to grasp ideas is to use it OOS to end pressure from the opponent, this IS MU specific though and the move's best uses will take time to develop.

11) I believe they did change it so you can't do actions right out of absorb. This happened back in 2.6 if I'm not mistaken.

And a casual question:

12) I don't think so, haha. I've gotten into the habit of calling USmash PK Love, as Kally brilliantly suggested (it even comes from his chest!) Otherwise we just stick to the regular stuff. Even though PK Fire is also PKF we still refer to PK Freeze as PKF, so that should give you an idea of what we use, haha.

Answered to the best of my ability, would like if a knowledgeable Lucas could give this a quick lookover (especially numbers 5 and 7) though I think for the most part I did a decent enough job answering him otherwise.

 

[nimigoha]

Answered to the best of my ability, would like if a knowledgeable Lucas could give this a quick lookover (especially numbers 5 and 7) though I think for the most part I did a decent enough job answering him otherwise.

You're a gem!

I find I can DJC aerials pretty quickly with X>tap>Cstick, but am having trouble with PKF. I always take too long. Is this just a practice thing?

Also, is replacing your SHFFL with a DJCFFL a situational thing or an all around thing? I know that it's almost impossible to get all 3 hits of Dair when DJCFFL, and hitting with all/most of Nair doesn't happen.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

That's probably the best way to do DJC, and yeah, doing it with PKF is a training thing. Basically what I did was do a DJC quickly and trying shooting PKF, nothing should be fired. Slowly perform it slower until you DO see it happen. One of the ways I check to make sure I'm doing it well is, while in training, do DJC PKF and then DACUS. This combos on pretty much everyone, so the combo counter will tell you if you did it right. Practice practice practice!

Situational. You're correct in that Dair and Nair don't work as nicely as Fair or Uair do with DJC. There ARE, however situations where they do work after a DJC. For example, sometimes I like to do a full hop to reach a platform and then DJC a Nair to land on the platform quickly/hit an opponent. For the most part you'll be using Fair and Uair the most with DJC from the ground/neutral, but like you said, it IS situational, and there are opportunities for sure to just do a plain ol' short hop.

 

[nimigoha]

Fantastic! I'll get on that as soon as I can. Thanks for the help.

 

[Burnsy]

Just posting to say I agree with Yars' answers. Couple things i wanted to add tho:

4. Magnet pull is good for chasing people you've sent flying, especially if it sets up for an offstage edgeguard (magnet pull b-reverse so I'm turned around, then bair). Mixing up the wavebounced and b-reversed versions of pull are a good way to avoid a character with invincibility when they respawn. It's not a basic technique though, so learning to use it like this should be low priority.

5. You can jump cancel it instantly after the release hitboxes have appeared. This happens when you let go of or dont hold magnet.

8. It kinda is bad. Your opponents will probably catch on, Lucas' grab isn't very safe and it's not hard to avoid, especially if he's doing it a lot and you're expecting it. Most of my grabs with Lucas are as a punish or combo followup (pkf>grab and nair>grab are awesome).

9. Uair links into itself great on fast fallers. With tight execution i'm pretty sure i've gotten at least 6 or 8 reps of djc uair on low% spacies before.

11. Magnet cancelling has been gone forever, I've been playing since 2.1 and he never had it. What they changed about his absorb in 2.6 is that they made it so it ****s up his momentum when he uses it in the air; it halts all momentum and then sends him slightly upwards, while putting him in lag. From fullscreen absorbing with magnet is cool but be really careful when using it close range. Players like to get you to absorb something and then they rush in and bop you during the lag.

Side note: Pmbr pls remove the momentum changing jank on absorb. Calabrel told me and Neon it'd be fixed in 3.0. Wai is it still dumb :'(.

 

[nimigoha]

4. I'm still having trouble figuring all the different magnet pull variations. Of course I want to get my basic techs down first, but it would be nice to know which direction I'm going to fly in and which way I'm facing.

5. Awesome. I was trying to do it like a shine and flick 'up' while still holding B. Will try again.

8. Yeah, I don't like run around flinging out snake or anything XD. Dthrow chasing is one of my favourite things to do, so I usually go for the grab after a PKF. All my friends tend to DI L/R when grabbed because 9/10 times I'm either going for Uthrow or Dthrow, so sometimes I go for F/Bthrow and they just die XD Definitely something I'll only get away with while playing people who know me!

11. Yeah one of my friends plays Mewtwo and I've been getting stuck in magnet a bit.

One more thing. Is there a solid way to wavebounce without Bstick? I just want to be running forward, then jump, bounce back while facing forward and shoot PKF forward.

I've heard of but haven't yet tried the following.

Run left, jump, input right+B then slam left.

Oh also, what's the concrete difference between a B reversal and a wavebounce?

 

[Burnsy]

Those are the same directions I would give you for wavebouncing pkf. Just gotta get the timing down on that last control stick input.

For understanding the differences between the reversals, lets use magnet as an example:
(Note that when I say "behind" i mean in the direction opposite of where hes facing)

Reverse Magnet: Tap down and behind Lucas and press B. He will magnet facing the opposite direction without changing his momentum.

B-Reversal Magnet: Tap straight down and press B, then immediately rotate the control stick behind Lucas. This will turn you around and also reverse your momentum without any loss in speed.

Wavebounce (Reverse B-Reversal): Tap down and behind Lucas and press B, then immediately rotate the control stick in the direction you were originally facing. This combines the above two mechanics and turns lucas around once with backwards momentum, then he reverses again and it converts for forward momentum

So there are 4 versions of the magnet portion of magnet pull: normal, reverse, b-reverse, and RBR. These also apply to the PKF you throw to start magnet pull as well, so if you combine the two theres technically a lot of ways you can do it.

 

[nimigoha]

Awesome, thanks!

And all 4 magnets will 'pull' after a PKF right? None of them will stop all momentum?

Also, how should I get the most distance out of the magnet pull? Should I tap magnet, or hold it?

 

[Burnsy]

You are correct. All 4 magnets will have momentum after a PKF.

You'll get a bit more distance if you hold it.

 

[CardiganBoy]

Out of current subject, i know, but if Lucas is the one character that if he doesn't come back, it will bother me the most.

 

[Burnsy]

If in Smash 4 he is like his Brawl incarnation, I could take him or leave him.

That said, I have a hunch that Smash 4 is not going to be good competitively anyways, so I don't really care either way.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Got 5th at a tourney today.

A Marth that knows how to fight Lucas is rough, I'm gonna have to grind out that MU a bunch. I almost beat him with Yoshi when I had to fight him in loser's again (he knocked me into Losers) but I DI'd a tipper FSmash terribly and lost a match I could have easily won.

Oh well, I had a lot of fun.

 

[Xcite]

You're a gem!
I find I can DJC aerials pretty quickly with X>tap>Cstick, but am having trouble with PKF. I always take too long. Is this just a practice thing?
\.

My method of DJC PKF is by setting my Z button to jump. I find it very efficient doing it in this manner, as well as very simple. I tried setting R trigger to jump, but I prefer having it set to grab because for some strange reason, I can DACUS more consistently with it than I can with Z.

 

[HammerTime]

Got 5th at a tourney today.

A Marth that knows how to fight Lucas is rough, I'm gonna have to grind out that MU a bunch. I almost beat him with Yoshi when I had to fight him in loser's again (he knocked me into Losers) but I DI'd a tipper FSmash terribly and lost a match I could have easily won.

Oh well, I had a lot of fun.

That matchup can be pretty rough if you're a little too wreckless. Marth's grab game is pretty devastating to lucas, maybe not as much as it is vs spacies but it still messes up Lucas pretty bad. Always try to be super careful when you're in front of Marth as the slightest mistake in shield rpessure tech skill will lead into a shield grab from the marth player which could result in your death or at least a good amount of %. Personally I try to do whatever I can to land behind the Marth player to prevent the shield grabbing nonsense. I shoot a lot of PKF in this matchup, if it hits you can do a DACUS which kills Marth fairly early, and if he shields I tend to run up to him and nair right through his shield and land behind him , then follow up with standard shield pressure so he can't shield grab me. Don't abuse aerial magnet into DJC fairs too much in this matchup since marth's fair outprioritizes everything that lucas can throw out in front of him. Since you can't rely on Lucas' priority alone in this matchup as much as some other matchups, you really just have to play the patience game and wait for the Marth to throw out a bad attack and then poke inside his zone and punish him.

It's a really volatile matchup since Lucas is pretty good at comboing and punishing Marth as well. Playing against Marth requires a great deal of patience and finesse since both characters can kill each other so easily.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Yup, that's exactly what I remember about that MU. I also didn't strike Warioware so I kinda got wrecked with its lack of side blastzones and platforms. It's amazing how different the match up is compared to Roy since he has to do different things to deal with Lucas. I'll make sure to keep all this in mind for the next time because I'm sure Lucas can make it work, I could FEEL that it was possible, I've just never played against Marth before.

Thanks Hammertime. <3

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Quick little bump!

The rest of my recording stuff is coming in by next week and was wondering if there was anything any Lucas mains would like to see get recorded, like a sort of tutorial deal for certain AT/Movement and whatnot I'd love to compile some stuff into a general video.

 

[nimigoha]

Quick little bump!

The rest of my recording stuff is coming in by next week and was wondering if there was anything any Lucas mains would like to see get recorded, like a sort of tutorial deal for certain AT/Movement and whatnot I'd love to compile some stuff into a general video.

I'd love a tutorial on wavemagnets. I try so hard but I can't nail it down.

 

[MrDoubleT]

I'd love a tutorial on wavemagnets. I try so hard but I can't nail it down.

You mean to wavedash out of magnet?

 

[nimigoha]

You mean to wavedash out of magnet?

Yup.

Isn't it usually referred to as a wavemagnet? In the same way that a wavedash out of a shine is a waveshine?

I really just want some timing tips and then also what kind of percents I should be looking to get follow-ups at.

 

[Burnsy]

The only difference between Lucas wavemagnet and a waveshine is that Lucas has to let go of B before he can jump cancel. Is a tutorial really necessary for that small difference?

 

[nimigoha]

The only difference between Lucas wavemagnet and a waveshine is that Lucas has to let go of B before he can jump cancel. Is a tutorial really necessary for that small difference?

I suppose not, like I understand how to do it but am just having difficulty. Definitely doesn't need its own video, but some tips on finger placement at the end of one would be neat.

 

[Burnsy]

I just use my thumb and move it from b to x(jump), then wavedash normally.

If that isn't working for you I'd guess its a matter of just needing to practice it, not a misunderstanding of how its performed. Can you waveshine?

 

[MoMonay]

I'm confused about what are the best strategies with psi magnet and the jump tether attack. I watch pros use jump tether a lot, but how is it better than the fair in certain situations? I'm also completely lost on the best uses of psi magnet and I know that it's an important part of Lucas's game.

 

[SixSaw]

The tether attack has a longer range, less knockback (meaning more followups at higher percents), and can be used after an airdodge with makes it great for punishing.
Magnet comes out on frame 4 and can be jump canceled on that same frame comes out on frame 5, and you can't jump cancel until after the hitboxes disappear. There are at least 3 frames of hitboxes, so the earliest you could jump cancel is frame 8 assuming the release hitbox lasts 1 frame. Pretty much speaks for itself.

edit: ty neon

 

[MoMonay]

So Magnet is used like Fox/Falco's shine? Would I jump, Magnet, jump into some other combo then? Or is it better to DJC a magnet

 

[NeonApophis]

Magnet comes out on frame 4 and can be jump canceled on that same frame. Pretty much speaks for itself.

This isn't accurate. Magnet comes out on frame 5, and you can't jump cancel until after the hitboxes disappear. There are at least 3 frames of hitboxes, so the earliest you could jump cancel is frame 8 assuming the release hitbox lasts 1 frame (it might be more, I'm not really sure).

 

[Burnsy]

This isn't accurate. Magnet comes out on frame 5, and you can't jump cancel until after the hitboxes disappear. There are at least 3 frames of hitboxes, so the earliest you could jump cancel is frame 8 assuming the release hitbox lasts 1 frame (it might be more, I'm not really sure).

Right, but everyone keep in mind that thanks to the repeating hitboxes/release design, the JC-able frame comes 1 frame after the strong release hitbox, making it still really safe for pressure (thought I'd mention this since "frame 8 JC-able" may be interpreted as slow if we are strictly comparing to other JC'able moves like shine which dont multihit)

 

[chrome12345]

1) I've been trying to practice DJC PKF for the last week (with y to tap jump) and I cannot get it anywhere close to consistent. Perhaps out of twenty times, I get it once. Either lucas cancels it too close to the ground, or he floats up. Any advice? I think we would all appreciate someone putting a you tube tutorial on how to DJC PKF, if they were kind enough to do so.

2) (To piggy back on Nimihoga) Is DJC PKF really that much better than a short hop pk freeze that releases on the ground? Correct me if I'm wrong, but they both travel the same ground distance and they both lead into DACUS. The supposed advantage of the former is that DJC PKF gets you to the ground quicker than the latter, but it has the disadvantage of you losing your second jump if you get hit. Furthermore, it takes a great deal of tech skill to do consistently, which means one might be likely to mess it up in a high stakes game. On the other hand, a short hop pk freeze released on the ground is still relatively quick, less technically straining, and you maintain your second jump if you get hit. I guess the question boils down to whether or not the option that is "faster" and harder to pull off is going to have a significant advantage over the "slower" yet safer option. Or maybe they both have their spots in the metagame?

I would love to hear your guys' thoughts on this!