Lucaryu Official Discussion thread

[ViewtifulHoe242]

Yo, i agree
This characters hype, his matches are hype, but this thread is as dry as a mummified bunghole, it needs to be more interesting. I can atleast offer suggestions for cool names again.

A gym or dojo related feel or something to do with his typing.
Tower of Mastery?
Way of the Black Belt?
--->Dojo of Steel?<---
Aura Knights?
The Fighter's Path?
The Enigma/Riddle of Steel?

 

[Zoa]

Well, I'm coming back to P:M for good. Can't stand Smash 4's game play. Have any advanced techs for Luc been uncovered while I was away?

 

[Captain Chunk]

I seriously need help with a matchups. Roy is a nightmare for me, especially when they play hyper aggressive. Also fox and falco get to me pretty bad. Anybody have advice for these matchups?

 

[Darkgun]

I can't help but suggest the title "Have you ever played Marvel?", since that is the comparison I most often hear.

Well, I'm coming back to P:M for good. Can't stand Smash 4's game play. Have any advanced techs for Luc been uncovered while I was away?

Well, I realized yesterday that Lucario is one of the few characters in the game that can utilize the knockback stacking mechanic effectively via Aura Bomb and fsmash. Though... the only time I see this being usable is if you shield break someone, and good luck doing that. I can't think of much else useful being taken note of.

I seriously need help with a matchups. Roy is a nightmare for me, especially when they play hyper aggressive.

In my experience (as we've got a few here in Texas), Roy requires a bit of patience due to his reach and how easily he seems to combo Lucario. Things worth noting in that matchup: tilting your shield is super important because of how early his nair and dtilt will shield poke, and how easy it is to perform high-low mixups on shield with those moves. Tilting your shield up primarily should cover for most other situations (like fsmash!). Most of his aerials, minus uair, can be shield grabbed if he lands close enough, to my knowledge, his utilt is easy to CC and punish, and his smashes and grab are super easy to punish.

Also fox and falco get to me pretty bad. Anybody have advice for these matchups?

Fox and Falco? Like the spacies? That make Lucario cry big blue baby tears?
You will get only a few chances per stock to deal damage, from what I've found. Make sure they are significant. Lucario's OoS options versus a spacie are often limited to grab, dair, or roll, and even that might not work. They're easy enough to combo once you get them in the air, but due to their fall speed, I personally have a hard time getting them high enough to get a comfortable combo going. Push them off stage and try for early gimps? This is the match that truly defines how limited Lucario is in neutral. If you figure out something, please share. XD

 

[Zoa]

@ Darkgun

That sounds fascinating. How's it done?

As for anyone interested, I'm looking for people who can help me determine set ups for AB. Just a few days ago I caught my Yoshi practice partner off guard with DT-> usmash 1st hit -> AB for a stock. I feel as if AB is not used as much as it should. It's Lucario's most powerful killer (I've had it kill a Pit in the middle of FD at 58%-ish with no DI).

 

[bec]

i use aura bomb out of usmash, as a hard read or to block options. its a big scary blue ball and forces a reaction, especially when recovering. they will have to get around it and you can punish them for it.

 

[StriderZero]

I seriously need help with a matchups. Roy is a nightmare for me, especially when they play hyper aggressive. Also fox and falco get to me pretty bad. Anybody have advice for these matchups?

For Roy, I would suggest to out-speed him (also make your movements very fast especially if he's playing super aggressive; that way you don't have to deal with shielding since Lucario's shield isn't that good) and apply constant pressure (you can't reach him, but make the Roy player feel pressured most of the time). Like Darkgun said, punish his grabs, and attacks. Roy's recovery is also not the best; so once you get him off stage, try to go for a f-air or use an aura sphere.

For Fox / Falco, they're not that much of a threat (well personally I hate fox). Falco's recovery is good horizontally but not vertically, so you could go in for a f-air or a risky FP (side-b). I find it best to also be patient and avoid most of his hit stun lasers; since they're the basis of Falco's gameplay. Fox is another story that I can't help you with xD. Nevertheless, it's best to bait both spacies from my experience and to play the patient game when times get rough.

Overall, I'd suggest to constantly try to out speed both spacies and Roy; and most definetly try to limit your shielding against those three characters.

 

[nimigoha]

Basically most matchups against anyone remotely able to get combo'd is 'get in, go hard, get out'.

Find a way to get in on them. If you don't telegraph them, DT mixups can close gaps really quickly.

Deal as much damage as you can.

DT away before you overextend.

Fox/Falco is one of those matchups where someone is gonna body someone. It's hard to beat a better character to combo than Bowser, but spacies are close. DA>Ftilt/Utilt>Dsmash>DT followup is really good. It sends at a nice horizontal angle, especially if they're trying to DI away from the DA followup. And spacies off the edge aren't a huge problem.

But if they hit you, that can sometimes mean stock.

 

[Darkgun]

@ Darkgun

That sounds fascinating. How's it done?

This video describes knockback stacking fairly well. With that in mind, I was remembering it wrong upon originally posting (I had the "before and after 10 frames" aspect mixed up), thus meaning that while this is still possible, it is muuuuuch harder to utilize.

Based on my initial understanding, you connect with AB and fsmash simultaneously, stacking their knockback for a heck of a push towards the blastzone (though in practice this didn't seem to be the case, thus prompting me to make sure I wasn't indeed getting this mixed up... which I was). Knockback stacking is still technically possible (I'm going to assume they are struck by AB, then fsmashed in the same direction from a platform, for example), but I suspect that a better method would be to force an opponent into AB with fsmash/dsmash and just let the uber kill move do all the work. You can squeeze 37 damage reliably out of a dsmash setup.

As for anyone interested, I'm looking for people who can help me determine set ups for AB. Just a few days ago I caught my Yoshi practice partner off guard with DT-> usmash 1st hit -> AB for a stock. I feel as if AB is not used as much as it should. It's Lucario's most powerful killer (I've had it kill a Pit in the middle of FD at 58%-ish with no DI).

How about a true setup into AB? Footstool(grounded)>dair(1st)>AB. I'm not sure if there is an alternative out via CCing, but if there isn't then this is glorious. Oh, and since footstooling a shielding opponent forces them to drop their shield for the duration of the animation, this makes for a super powerful option on shield for free damage.

Otherwise... I'm not really sure. I usually use the move to control space or as a surprise kill move (most people are surprised. Go figure.), but as for setups, I'm thinking your usmash(1st)>AB is probably the way to go about it.

 

[Zoa]

@ Darkgun

Appreciate the information. I'm definitely going to try dsmash into AB against my partners now. Though as for AB set ups, I'm not really talking about guaranteed set ups. I should have specified a bit more. I meant moves that transition well into AB. Just today I caught a player in fair -> ASC -> AB while going into the ground. Granted his DI could've been better, but it was a surprise nonetheless.

 

[nimigoha]

Oh, and since footstooling a shielding opponent forces them to drop their shield for the duration of the animation, this makes for a super powerful option on shield for free damage.

Heh.

 

[Darkgun]

I KNOW. I AM SO SAD NOW.

RIP Lucario genuinely dangerous shield pressure.

 

[nimigoha]

I KNOW. I AM SO SAD NOW.

RIP Lucario genuinely dangerous shield pressure.

Eh. I'm not bothered. They hit the nail on the head when they said some characters could abuse it and others couldn't really do anything with it.

Footstooling on the ground kinda does nothing now, unless I'm missing some obvious applications.

Actually, Lucario is the only person who can use it now. He can still Dair>AFP after, whereas the DJC characters who would dip down into an aerial will just be attacking a shield.

Also looking forward to Lucario's DACUS. Interesting to see how far he'll go and whether he gatlings.

 

[Darkgun]

Also looking forward to Lucario's DACUS. Interesting to see how far he'll go and whether he gatlings.

I'm pretty excited about this as well, though from what I've been reading, while everyone will have a two frame DACUS execution window, certain characters still won't have a functional DACUS. Buuuuuut more on what I just found (in a conversation you were having with Strong Bad) is suggesting that Lucario won't indeed have a drastically effecting DACUS, since his Dash Attack does not change his movement speed at any point such that he exceeds his full run speed. That combined with his good traction will probably mean he can't viably DACUS.

This is, admittedly, assuming I am understanding all this stuff correctly. There's so much to take in and since it is all over the place, I may be waaaaaay off, thus making the above total nonsense.

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah I'm pretty sure his DA doesn't launch him very much, and he's got a lot of traction.

So even if he can Gatling it'll basically be a cancel he can already do with no real benefits.

Time will tell.

 

[Captain Chunk]

So what does everybody think about heavy spacing characters? I think that's my biggest problem with Lucario, especually FE characters and Kirby. How do you good folks deal with swords and feet?

 

[Tomo009]

Against the FE characters I mostly like to stay a fair distance away at neutral, I like aura spheres a lot against Marth and Roy in particular. I mostly play a baiting game, don't let them get too close though, it can be hard to do typical dash dancing baits because of the sheer range difference, but once there is an opening they don't generally get out of our pressure particularly easy. Marth could go for an upB, but I don't think a Marth has ever actually hit me with that while I have momentum.

I find Roy much harder than Marth with Lucario. Marth I find struggles a lot with crossups, so I like to double team a lot against Marth, Roy dSmash absolutely destroys that though and an fSmash read on a crossup is MUCH more devastating due to Roy's sweet spot.

I feel against those 2 in particular you just need to make your openings count, try to get a good combo going or at least stay aggressive and pile on pressure, always being aware of sweet spot ranges so you don't overextend.



I have massive problems with Kirby and I'd like to see what people say. I find he controls the ground too well and I struggle to find an approach or to even bait anything. I have similar problems with Jigglypuff, but Kirby's dash attack in particular causes me a lot of problems.

I also can't combo these characters particularly well, so I always feel like I'm playing at a disadvantage in these matchups.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I guess this is where I would post this since there is no frame data thread... When I viewed lucario in brawl box (not very adept at it yet...), it turns his hurt bubbles blue during the startup of fair, nair, and some other moves. Is this invincibility? As far as I can tell it is, but I don't understand why he needs that and why he struggles in neutral if he has an invincible till hitbox nair/fair with solid priority...

 

[nimigoha]

Uh so guys I just spent 30 minutes trying to meteor cancel Lucario's *un*charged aerial force palm and was unsuccessful every time.

If anyone could go and try right now and confirm that they could that would be great.

I've always taken for granted that it was a meteor smash and you had to charge it to get the spike, but it seems like the charge only increases the angle of the spike.

Or I'm horribly wrong. But please don't dismiss me as I did someone else about this earlier, try for yourself.

EDIT: Computer just jumped while at the bottom of FD after I uncharge-aFP'd him at like 50%. I don't know what to believe.

If someone could TAS this that would obviously be awesome. I'm just so confused.

 

[Thor]

Uh so guys I just spent 30 minutes trying to meteor cancel Lucario's *un*charged aerial force palm and was unsuccessful every time.

If anyone could go and try right now and confirm that they could that would be great.

I've always taken for granted that it was a meteor smash and you had to charge it to get the spike, but it seems like the charge only increases the angle of the spike.

Or I'm horribly wrong. But please don't dismiss me as I did someone else about this earlier, try for yourself.

EDIT: Computer just jumped while at the bottom of FD after I uncharge-aFP'd him at like 50%. I don't know what to believe.

If someone could TAS this that would obviously be awesome. I'm just so confused.

I was told by someone who is highly skilled in PM and knowledgable about that game (not gonna give their name in case they were wrong, but they were top 16 in THB4, and actually somewhat higher than the number suggests) that Lucario's side+B is glitched up, and that the uncharged version is actually a spike too. If you tested for half an hour like that, it's almost certainly a spike.

As for an AI jumping, Falco's dair doesn't actually kill at 50% either (heck, I've had a fresh Marth tipper dair almost not kill another Marth at !80% because I had FH -> fair -> DJ to get the KO (off a ledge hop) and they were able to DJ up+b and almost get back). if you test Falco dair at like 60%, you'll see that AI will jump out of that too sometimes (or a human can) - it doesn't have enough hitstun/KB to KO off the bottom at low percents (which is also why a Jigglypuff doesn't DI from dair at 50% - although this sort of thing is also why I once hilariously got a Jigglypuff at zero percent with fthrow -> dair -> DJ -> dair as Marth, only to get hit by pound and actually survive my suicidal combo thanks to Dolphin Slahs XD).

Random question (maybe this should be for another thread): Does anyone have any reliable setups into aerial side+B [offstage] (that is, is there an aerial that is easily cancellable into side+b offstage)? I have hit dair -> side+B once or twice, but I don't know if that's actually a thing or not (and fair -> side+b clearly doesn't work, except possibly at percents too low to actually ever KO off the bottom).

 

[Zoa]

Dair first hit -> I believe is a guaranteed set up option as long as Luc's character model is overlapping the opponent's character model. It takes one frame to transition into another move for OHC. AFP's grab hitbox is out on frame 11, so it'll be 12 frames before it successfully grabs. Factor in hitstun, AFP's better vertical grab box, and you can almost always guarantee it will connect an overlapping character model.

 

[nimigoha]

Interesting about glitched aFP. Either way I always charge it when on stage because then it will actually send at a wide enough angle to clear the ledge.

Fair-aFP works sometimes, if you connect with the inner Fair hitbox and you're rising into them. Dair is probably more secure, though harder to land.

 

[Darkgun]

@ TheGravyTrain , if there is invincibility on Lucario's... well, anything, I've personally never seen or heard word of it. Might check to see if these blue hurtbubbles are the same as the ones seen on Snake's grounded Cypher or Bowser's grounded Whirling Fortress, as those both have known invincibility frames.

As for Lucario's aFP... I've been noticing that very few people actually meteor cancel the uncharged version when I connect with it as well. I do know that up until it sends an opponent into tumble the distance they travel is based almost entirely upon their fallspeed (due to the near insignificant knockback and rather long hitstun) and I'm pretty certain that there is no way to meteor cancel that, but otherwise.... I may also have to play around with this. If this is a thing it would certainly explain a few free kills I've netted with the uncharged version recently.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ TheGravyTrain , if there is invincibility on Lucario's... well, anything, I've personally never seen or heard word of it. Might check to see if these blue hurtbubbles are the same as the ones seen on Snake's grounded Cypher or Bowser's grounded Whirling Fortress, as those both have known invincibility frames.

As for Lucario's aFP... I've been noticing that very few people actually meteor cancel the uncharged version when I connect with it as well. I do know that up until it sends an opponent into tumble the distance they travel is based almost entirely upon their fallspeed (due to the near insignificant knockback and rather long hitstun) and I'm pretty certain that there is no way to meteor cancel that, but otherwise.... I may also have to play around with this. If this is a thing it would certainly explain a few free kills I've netted with the uncharged version recently.

I think it had the same effect applied to his down b. I will check later tonight if it is the same for other common moves.

 

[Thor]

Dair first hit -> I believe is a guaranteed set up option as long as Luc's character model is overlapping the opponent's character model. It takes one frame to transition into another move for OHC. AFP's grab hitbox is out on frame 11, so it'll be 12 frames before it successfully grabs. Factor in hitstun, AFP's better vertical grab box, and you can almost always guarantee it will connect an overlapping character model.

That is good to know. My next question: can I cancel dair halfway through the move? I hit someone with only dair's first hitbox, then hit them with the aFP (as it seems to be abbreviated) the few times I have done it - most of the other times I seem to just hit both of dair's hits then side+b, which either KOs me (SDs) or leaves me recovering when I could be back onstage or doing stuff higher up. From what I have done, I can't seem to cancel dair's second hit before it comes out to do aFP (or any move for that matter). So is first hit dair -> aFP a thing, or just something situational if the second hit of dair misses?

EDIT: @ Darkgun I know Lucario's down+b (is it still called double team) has at least some I-frames on it somewhere, but I don't know when they are (and they are rather short in my opinion, not covering him for quite some time on startup and having a fair bit of endlag on the move after invincibility ends).

 

[Hylian]

Lucarios down-b certainly has quite a few inv frames on it, and when you use a move out of down-b that move gets 10 frames of inv.

 

[Zoa]

That is good to know. My next question: can I cancel dair halfway through the move? I hit someone with only dair's first hitbox, then hit them with the aFP (as it seems to be abbreviated) the few times I have done it - most of the other times I seem to just hit both of dair's hits then side+b, which either KOs me (SDs) or leaves me recovering when I could be back onstage or doing stuff higher up. From what I have done, I can't seem to cancel dair's second hit before it comes out to do aFP (or any move for that matter). So is first hit dair -> aFP a thing, or just something situational if the second hit of dair misses?

Yes. You can cancel dair halfway with any special. The second hit can also be cancelled as well. If you whiff the first the first hitbox of dair, or just miss the opportunity to dair first hit -> aFP, you can always ASC (Aura Sphere Cancel) the second. ASC acts like an aerial L-cancel. I believe it's 9 or 10 frames total. OHC transitions on one frame, AS charge hitbox is on frame one, and to cancel it is between seven and nine frames if I recall correctly.

The timing is a bit tight on dair first hit -> aFP. I still practice it in the lab daily. I use claw style (if what term I'm using is correct) to do it. I use dair with the A button and control stick, then quickly flick it over to the side with B. It's still hard to off stage, but very useful and easy on stage. It sets up free anything on every character (except Bowser because he can easily armor your dair and retaliate) before 30%. Beyond that it sets up tech chases. If your opponent doesn't DI uthrow well, then you can catch them with an aFP next to the ledge for a stock.

 

[Thor]

Yes. You can cancel dair halfway with any special. The second hit can also be cancelled as well. If you whiff the first the first hitbox of dair, or just miss the opportunity to dair first hit -> aFP, you can always ASC (Aura Sphere Cancel) the second. ASC acts like an aerial L-cancel. I believe it's 9 or 10 frames total. OHC transitions on one frame, AS charge hitbox is on frame one, and to cancel it is between seven and nine frames if I recall correctly.

The timing is a bit tight on dair first hit -> aFP. I still practice it in the lab daily. I use claw style (if what term I'm using is correct) to do it. I use dair with the A button and control stick, then quickly flick it over to the side with B. It's still hard to off stage, but very useful and easy on stage. It sets up free anything on every character (except Bowser because he can easily armor your dair and retaliate) before 30%. Beyond that it sets up tech chases. If your opponent doesn't DI uthrow well, then you can catch them with an aFP next to the ledge for a stock.

Now I need to go read some other threads to learn what ASC is... but this is good to know. Thanks.

Lucarios down-b certainly has quite a few inv frames on it, and when you use a move out of down-b that move gets 10 frames of inv.

Did not know that expending a charge to use a move extends some invincibility to the move. Good to know for beating out various attacks, and a reason to add more down+b cancels to my approaches - thanks!

 

[Zoa]

Now I need to go read some other threads to learn what ASC is... but this is good to know. Thanks.

No problem. Darkgun compiled a fantastic list for these kind of things.

http://smashboards.com/threads/dgs-lucario-specific-tech-skill-brief.348253/

I always reference this guide to new Lucario players in my practice group. It's fantastic to have, and a fantastic thing @ Darkgun did.

 

[Thor]

I've heard Lucario's sweetspotted dtilt breaks crouch cancels (even at 0%). Is this the case? Generally to beat a CC I immediately use force palm on hit (not that doing so is actually guaranteed, but whatever), but can I use dtilt instead?

 

[Hylian]

I've heard Lucario's sweetspotted dtilt breaks crouch cancels (even at 0%). Is this the case? Generally to beat a CC I immediately use force palm on hit (not that doing so is actually guaranteed, but whatever), but can I use dtilt instead?

This is correct.

 

[Thor]

This is correct.

Ok then, how hard/easy is it to sweetspot dtilt? Does this usually occur naturally out of jab/dash attack combos, or should I be attempting to hit with close or far hitbox of jab/dash attack? Visually, am I looking to hit them with the aura blast and not the foot?

P.S: Why is it called the Lucaryu discussion thread (or whatever) instead of Lucario? Some sort of joke I'm unaware of? An alternate spelling I never knew about? Something else?

 

[nimigoha]

Lucario's Upsmash and Nair are based on the Shoryuken and the Tatsumaki moves of Ryu, the protagonist of Street Fighter, a game that uses cancel systems that inspired PM Lucario's OHC system.

Double Team is also loosely based on Akuma/Evil Ryu's Ashura Senku.

Basically Lucario is PM's homage to classic fighters.

 

[Zoa]

Ok then, how hard/easy is it to sweetspot dtilt? Does this usually occur naturally out of jab/dash attack combos, or should I be attempting to hit with close or far hitbox of jab/dash attack? Visually, am I looking to hit them with the aura blast and not the foot?

P.S: Why is it called the Lucaryu discussion thread (or whatever) instead of Lucario? Some sort of joke I'm unaware of? An alternate spelling I never knew about? Something else?

You want to hit with the aura blast. Be aware it does not connect with aerial opponents though. Only the sourspot connects with aerial opponents. I believe it has a meteor smash/spike hitbox on the aura blast of dtilt. That's why it's very effective at blowing up CC. Don't forget usmash is incredibly useful for this as well. If you wish to land dtilt, it is far more effective as a spaced option for set ups.

 

[Rafitak]

Hey guys is there any place we can get project m 3.5 lucario updates?

 

[HK_Spadez]

@ Zoa Hey. For ur earlier mention about spacies tho. One of my best friends main fox and typically i dont have too much trouble with them. To get an easy gimp. I get them offstage by comboing

anything -> Up smash -> Spirit bomb. works at pretty low % vs the spacies and this will give u an easy chance to gimp. and vs falco it could potentially just straight up kill

 

[Giygacoal]

Hey guys is there any place we can get project m 3.5 lucario updates?

You can bet the change list will be posted on the pm general board on the same day as the update release.

 

[Rafitak]

You can bet the change list will be posted on the pm general board on the same day as the update release.

Thank you friend!

 

[Zoa]

So the character page for Luc says he now keeps aura charges across stocks. Thoughts?

 

[Szion]

That could be either 0 1 or 2. not starting each stock with 1 potentially feels really evil to me..what am I to do about spacies x.x