Lucaryu Official Discussion thread

[Wolf_The_Wolf]

I am kind of a lurker, sorry. Is it just me or is the Zelda/Sheik matchup almost not worth pursuing against a skilled player?

 

[Giygacoal]

So the character page for Luc says he now keeps aura charges across stocks. Thoughts?

I actually prefer this over the "start every stock with a single charge" idea. It feels like I really have to use my aura judiciously, like in pre-3.0, except less bad.

I am kind of a lurker, sorry. Is it just me or is the Zelda/Sheik matchup almost not worth pursuing against a skilled player?

It's not just you. Zelda is hard for Lucario to keep a combo grip on, and Sheik is... Sheik. I recommend getting a secondary for that matchup.

 

[Wolf_The_Wolf]

It's not just you. Zelda is hard for Lucario to keep a combo grip on, and Sheik is... Sheik. I recommend getting a secondary for that matchup.

That makes me feel a lot better. I know the player and was doing pretty good up until they switched to Zelda as a main. I know I'm not amazing in the big picture, but wow, even after practice I have to work so much harder than they do in that matchup.

Thanks.

 

[Risky]

Zelda shouldn't be nearly as annoying now that her Neutral-B has no invincibility in the air. She ends up trading with everything when she tries to escape combos with it. New Din's is pretty easy to react to, and doesn't do all that much anyway.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

Quick guys Ipunchkidz is playing against mr r in a lucario ditto mm on his twitch right now

 

[EclipseSmash]

Quick guys Ipunchkidz is playing against mr r in a lucario ditto mm on his twitch right now

That was fun.

 

[Zoa]

I just thunk (intentional typo). I was thinking about Lucario's options in neutral, and it made me think of how it works with supers and AS. I'm thinking his neutral game is more along the lines of defensive aggression. As in you need to look into every opportunity to automatically go aggro at a moment's notice while normally playing defensive. This of course applies to using BAS in neutral to limit options while playing defensive and waiting to capitalize on something.

Lucario can OHC off of projectiles with "health". This could lead to an incredible surprise approach. What I did just a few hours ago was fair -> DT -> DT cancel utilt to start a combo off of on a buddy's Link that threw a crate at me (it was basic testing in the lab). We can also OHC DT off of an opponent's shield to put room between us in case of a screw up.

Because of the more limited movement options in comparison to other fast characters, or just those with a better DACUS/wavedash, DT/ES are there to help provide the approach tools necessary. However we can't just throw them out because it gets predictable, wastes an aura charge, it's not always available like other movement options, and just flat out super easy to punish without an aura charge. Instead we have to wait for the right opportunity to connect it and go aggro.

With projectiles nerfed to the ground, this helps out our defensive aggression neutral. BAS now becomes a decent pressure and poke tool. FCAS allows you to throw up a wall to clank or destroy weaker projectiles. A lot more pressure is going to come from movement options, so throwing it out at the right given opportunity will allow us to control space with a very slow projectile.

However I don't think Lucario should ever commit to much of anything in neutral ever. Looking at Lucario's pressure options, and limited uses of supers which already consume up so many charges as is for DT and ES, I think it's more about capitalizing on everything your opponent does. If you do commit to an approach with Lucario, then it's going to be a very hard one. Almost everything he does to approach is highly punishable and limited.

Long story short, the key to pressuring your opponent is to get them to come to you and let them commit first. Develop an extremely strong punish game. Think two steps ahead if ever throwing something out in neutral.

 

[Zoa]

Hey all. What's the consensus on Luc's CQC options? A bunch of us were theorycrafting earlier, and it was almost unanimous how amazing it was. Aerial and ground L-cancel (ASC) to reset to neutral faster, DI mix ups out of so many things, and just follow ups are crazy. One thing we did notice was how all his K.O. moves have to be sweetspotted, but they were adamant that his mix ups were hard to adapt to due to the complexity of them.

 

[bec]

whats cqc mean

 

[Zoa]

CQC is close quarters combat. Basically the jank that Luc's known for.

 

[Giygacoal]

ground L-cancel (ASC).

Wow, this wording makes the concept of Aura Sphere Canceling a lot easier to explain to people!

 

[Risky]

@ Zoa I posted somewhere about the Link matchup and how I think if you react to every Boomerang thrown in neutral with Fair -> Option you can easily pressure Link, DT being the most practical. You can also ASC or throw an AS at him. You can't OHC projectiles using grounded moves. Now that our shield is much bigger we can powershield more easily and simply shield more things without getting poked, making our game against projectile characters that much better.

Lucario's wavedash is great. He has a 3 frame jumpsquat and it travels a good distance. Between bouncing around with ASC's in midair and DT we're pretty slippery compared to a lot of characters. Our approaches are almost nonexistent without aura, endless with.

I went back and watched some vids of mine against Sora, and every time I got punished it was from pressing a button in neutral while he was dashdancing or doing something innocuous. Lucario just shouldn't press the A button in neutral unless the opponent is going to be shielding, or you're going to Dtilt their approach. Very few moves of our moves are "safe" (fast enough that you can't punish it on reaction) in neutral.

On his "CQC" options, what I do when I get a hit is try to work a Usmash or gFP in the 2nd or 3rd hit so they're airborne and can't buffer roll/dodge/cc my followup. If I think they're going to roll/dodge/cc my first hit (generally dash attack) I'll either ASC or DT when I hit their shield and react to their roll. Figure out what your opponent is choosing to prevent you from comboing or pressuring and choose what you cancel into accordingly. Other than that it's figuring out what the optimal punish is on the character you're against.

 

[Raizu]

Hey guys, I've been playing Luke for a while but haven't really checked for anything here, but anyways.
I've recently been trying to mix up my aerial combat game with FAIR ES follow-up cancel into a footstool. It takes a little bit more startup time than a typical NAIR or FAIR after ES cancel, but looking at it in debug mode, opponents still are in hitstun for long enough to footstool if you touch them with Extremespeed.

According to what I've read about the footstool, it puts opponents into a frame 1 spike. I HAVE been able to achieve ES cancel into footstool rather consistently, but I have yet to be able to string together something like USmash-jump cancel-Fair-ES follow, cancel-Footstool into KO. In other words, making this achievable from the ground has been difficult. But I very much think it's possible.

My hope is that this combo works like everything about it says it should. Hopefully, with the proper timing in the above combo (I just haven't gotten the timing right yet) I think Lucario can take a mid-percentage opponent and easily gimp them without much risk to yourself. The ideal situation would be an opponent at mid percent (allowing for some knockback with FAIR but not so far as ES canceling is not possible as a follow up) near the edge of the stage, and for a person who has mastered this, a successful USmash leads to a KO at very low percents against fast-fallers or people with poor recoveries. The risk is limited because pressing taunt in midair even if you fail a footstool does not have any end lag that I'm aware of, and even if you miss it you can dair or NAIR for some good damage. At higher percents you can end this combo with NAIR anyways, or pop them up with UAir. If you are too close to the edge you can footstool + dair as well, which I have done. If offstage, dair to cancel momentum after the footstool to get back onstage - if nothing else it's a much safer and more effective, in some ways, force palm spike that you can end more combos with. Especially with the new poor recoveries across the board. It would vastly improve Lucario's matchup against fast fallers like Fox/Falco.

Sorry for the long explanation but basically, what are your thoughts on this idea, or incorporating footstools into combos in general? It adds a tool to Lucario's arsenal but if you can get an USmash is this really worth it/can anybody else successfully get this off? Or is there some other reason this won't work?

EDIT: or maybe I'm being an idiot and overlooking something extremely obvious that makes this not viable.

 

[Risky]

@ R Raizu http://gfycat.com/UncommonUnderstatedCockatiel

It's viable. It's much safer to do from a grounded attack than an aerial, as you can't Up-B back to the stage when cancelling an aerial move into ESC. Problems can occur if they DI away or mash out an option meaning you can't footstool them.

This has applications against many of the cast. Falcon, Ganon, Donkey Kong all stand out as characters that you can do this to extremely easily. Others you may have to drag them slightly under the edge (like Marth). On Yoshi's Story it will outright kill everyone under the ledge.

 

[Zoa]

Woot. Was away on vacation.

@ Risky
I'm incredibly happy about lots of the nerfed projectiles and our buffed shield. This forces more movement as approaches in neutral. Granted our movement options, like DACUS, are worse than others, but our burst movement isn't bad in the least. In fact it's better than just about every character. I never really thought Luc's wavedash was any good compared to his other options, but I'll try it out some more. Thanks for the other detailed information. I'll bring that up with my other partners.

 

[Risky]

We have an invincible dacus if we have a charge. Not that it's the best approach, but you can dtc -> usmash and it will stop you wherever you start the usmash. I know what you mean though as we have no obvious "press this to easily approach and beat most things" button without charge. Even with charge you can clank Lucario's option if you put a hitbox out when he DTC's.

I naturally wavedash a lot coming from Melee. My neutral game consists mostly of shorthop b-reversed/wavebounced asc's into wavelands or fullhop asc into waveland on/off platforms. Mixing in DT, putting out aerials as they approach right before I land, throwing balls at them. Always waveland out of a whiffed usmash. I swear that gets people every time I do it.

 

[Zoa]

Huh. I never considered putting ASC applications into all that movement. I get Luc's jump squat gives him an incredibly fast wavedash, but what can I really do out of it other than dtilt and platform movement? It's the third shortest out of the cast. I can't really wavesmash and all that out of it effectively.

 

[Risky]

Movement is the most important aspect of smash. You can do anything out of a wavedash, that's why it's a beautiful thing. Platform movement is essential on every stage except one. You don't waveshine like Fox but you can wd back -> Fsmash like Marth if you want to compare it to other characters.

 

[Zoa]

Hm. I get that movement is the most important aspect. What I was asking is what can I do effectively out of a wavedash in neutral or off a read?

 

[Risky]

Wavedashing out of shield is the most practical application you can use with any character. Either to punish a smash on your shield that pushed you back or to escape pressure. Situations in neutral often come up where your opponent is midstage and you're under a side platform, and wavelanding across into Fair/Dair depending on their position is a strong approach. Lucario has an invincible waveland on stage that is a guaranteed safe getup from the edge. Already talked about the ASC waveland stuff.

TLDR; You wavedash/waveland when it's the optimal movement option to you at the given time.

 

[Zoa]

Oh okay. Gotcha. I know it takes a while to learn the applications for wavedash. Was just wondering what options I had out of it compared to the other stuff Luc has. Appreciate it, Risky.

 

[KingDozie]

What are the basic combos for lucario?

 

[Zoa]

Anybody willing to put a frame data thread together now that we've got debug mode and frame advancing? I won't have access to debug mode for quite some time due to no regular Wii for GCN controller. Many others are in the same boat. I would think it was about time we got our own frame data thread for our character, too.

 

[Giygacoal]

What are the basic combos for lucario?

Uh dash attack→side smash is a good one to start practicing.
There's also Jab1→Up-Tilt→Up-Smash.
Neither of these are guaranteed to work with every early percent/character, though. Watch out for crouch canceling.

So did someone find out what's especially useful about crouch-tilt? I've been using it like down-tilt when I need a little more range.

 

[Zoa]

I have found nothing useful out of ctilt if they have decent DI. If it's bad, then I can follow up with a DT cancel. Otherwise I just don't use it. Too slow and sends the opponent too far.

 

[Zoa]

Not exactly the correct character forum, but damn I wish Link would do what my avatar does in Smash.

 

[SpiderMad]

Hey Lucarios, do this twice in a row and record it with your phone
-SH Fair Dair (getting the hitbox out)-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeLklmmYyNk#t=248

 

[Risky]

Hey Lucarios, do this twice in a row and record it with your phone
-SH Fair Dair (getting the hitbox out)-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeLklmmYyNk#t=248

I did it. No.

 

[SpiderMad]

I did it. No.

You did? What happened to your phone?

 

[Zoa]

Just a hypothetical question, but would you all be more interested in a DT that loses invincibility yet has more options to act out of? As in doing anything like moonwalk, DD, SH, FH, wavedash, etc. It was an idea mentioned by another of my practice partners. He says that he doesn't really feel that DT invincibility is all that cracked up to be.

We did a few rounds of neutral practice in the lab today. He plays Link, so it occured to him how useless DT is at avoid things (specifically projectiles) without a charge to act out. I explained the frame data I know of to him, and he goes on to say how more threatened he would feel about acting in neutral if Luc had that much burst movement and freedom off an aura charge.

Personally I tend to agree with him a lot. Sacrificing the invincibility might not actually be too bad of an idea after I looked at it from different areas. I'm much more interested in the accomplished Luc players' thoughts. Would you sacrifice the invincibility for better burst movement options?

 

[Risky]

I'm not sure if you mean with or without an aura charge used. I could see them allowing a cancel into a jump. If you mean removing the intangibility entirely and always allowing him the option to cancel without aura then I think that would be too powerful.

I think DT is fine where it's at. You can time the intangibility to go through something if you have a read, otherwise it's an intangible approach/aerial of your choice.

One way to indirectly buff DT approaches would be to have Aura Sphere damage count towards building aura, as well as damage done to projectiles, allowing you to build aura and find your way back in against that Link.

 

[Zoa]

I'm not sure if you mean with or without an aura charge used. I could see them allowing a cancel into a jump. If you mean removing the intangibility entirely and always allowing him the option to cancel without aura then I think that would be too powerful.

I think DT is fine where it's at. You can time the intangibility to go through something if you have a read, otherwise it's an intangible approach/aerial of your choice.

One way to indirectly buff DT approaches would be to have Aura Sphere damage count towards building aura, as well as damage done to projectiles, allowing you to build aura and find your way back in against that Link.

Oh no. I meant with charge. Without charge would definitely be really good without too much drawback. Basically remove the invincibility entirely and replace it with the ability to do anything out of it with a charge. It was just an idea brought up when he noticed that DT is incredibly punishable in neutral if attempting to use it to dodge without a charge to act out of.

Thing is I really do agree with him that the invincibility itself isn't enough to really encourage use of in neutral without a charge. It's really punishable on start up and ending. Of course replacing the invincibility means it loses some use, but it's mostly a burst movement option to approach, pursue, etc. already that we know of currently. I don't really see how trading invincibility for better options out of a limited use burst movement option would be a bad thing looking at Luc's wavedash, DACUS, and how we burn most of our charges on DT and ES already.

 

[Risky]

The intangibility is important when you're crossing up a shieldgrab, or doing something similar. There are only 5 punishable frames at the end of DT, so basically a hitbox has to already be out where you're going to end up. A lot of characters don't have a reasonable option to stick out when they see you DT/try to react to it. Also once you put the fear in them with a DTC they're not that up to challenging every DT you put out. Ledgehop DT is pretty sweet, only punishable at the end if you do it right (or not at all with aura).

You can't use it on reaction at all. They had it tightened in 3.0 where there were only 1-2 punishable frames at the end of DT which made it nearly impossible to punish. I can't think of a happy medium right now. Removing it all but allowing more cancels makes it very bland as a move in my opinion. It would literally be a dash that does nothing without aura.

 

[Daltonthelou]

Hey guys, I'm conflicted when it comes to comboing out of upsmash is it more beneficial to ASC out or jump out of the 3-4th hit? I usually jump out unless I'm comboing first hit into itself.

 

[Zoa]

Oh wow. I didn't know that there were that few frames to punish it. I knew a hitbox was supposed to be out at the time to get you. I do use it to do the ledgehop DT for recovery a lot to ensure a safe way to get back. I was thinking maybe buff AS as a proper way to force the opponent to commit now to compensate for removal of invincibility? Just another idea.

Though can you imagine the style and mind games with a DT that can cancel into anything?

DT cancel -> moonwalk -> ledge grab/dair
DT cancel -> SH fair -> ASC -> whatever
DT cancel -> spaced wavedash dtilt -> ASC -> whatever
DT cancel -> DD bait -> punish
DT cancel -> moonwalk back -> punish

 

[Zoa]

I just did a two hour test in the lab with a buddy crashing at my place tonight. We tested AS charge hitbox. All was in regular, 1/2, and 1/4. Mario was the test dummy.

Basically the test consisted of set ups off the AS charge hitbox. We did this on Battlefield's platforms. Assuming my frame data is still accurate, the charge hitbox comes out on frame 1 and ASC is about frame 9.

Dair was the set up move. If it wasn't changed from Brawl, then the first active hitbox is out on frame 4. OHC transitions in exactly one frame. That means the AS charge hitbox comes out on frame 2 at the absolute earliest. Not only does the dair hitbox bring the opponent up, but AS charge hitbox is guaranteed no matter what to connect. The best part? This set up is completely safe.

I got him to buffer rolls OoS while shielding starting with dair. I'm not sure of the exact frame data because lolnodebugmodeforclassiccontroller, but I don't think anything is safe OoS out of this. The hitboxes started shredding his shield, and hit him every time he tried to do anything OoS.

We then tried DI and SDI in 1/2 and 1/4 mode starting with the first dair hitbox. Luc was overlapping Mario's character model for future reference. The thing was incredibly hard for him to SDI properly, if at all, because of how fast the hitboxes refreshed and how many hit. DI was still doable of course. Unless you can do an inhuman AI jump as soon as hitstun ends after the last hit of the charging hitbox ends, then you've got 10+ frames easily to follow up of. ASC ends maybe 5(?) frames before the opponent gets stuck in their animation where they touch down on the ground unable to do anything out of it. You can jab, grab, and dtilt(?) out of it from what we got. The platform pressure from this is incredible. It guarantees so many potential follow ups. I'm wondering if it's at all possible to actually "break" the magic series by actually using moves that produce low knockback/use moves at low percents to ASC out of for grab set ups or more.

 

[Risky]

Good stuff. This is exceptionally useful when chasing a platform tech. I can't imagine many situations where a Mario would allow you to be right on top of him. You're saying when you Dair -> ASC he couldn't buffer a roll out because the charging hitbox hit him? Does that mean you're holding the AS charge? I think if he buffered a roll it would just come out whenever the AS chargebox was over. You should have him try spamming air dodge out of the followup if you 1 hit Dair -> ASC him and it pops him up.

The problem I have with any combo involving the AS hitbox is that the opponent will always be able to act if it hits them. At the weekly I go to everybody is ALWAYS pressing buttons/crouch canceling all the time (think Luigi). Beyond annoying. If you're playing against a real player things change a lot.

 

[Zoa]

Yeah. Whenever he dropped shield or tried anything OoS he got hit. There were times he got hit trying to buffer rolls, but also because the platforms are so small. Trying to buffer rolls in one direction caught him in the AS charge hitbox, but also because I could easily punish his rolls in the opposite direction. I'll try the air dodge spam as soon as I'm able to get a hold from a buddy of mine. I don't think it's possible though. Mario's always in hitstun from the first hit of dair.

 

[Risky]

Try him mashing Nair or air dodge, and/or mashing downsmash while he's on the platform. I can almost guarantee one of these options will work and prevent you from getting a followup.

 

[Risky]

You did? What happened to your phone?

I remember doing this before, but it looks like it's not possible in 3.5. If you hit something with the Fair it certainly becomes possible.