Lucario's overall changes in Smash 4

[Zoa]

Here's the damage for jab and tilts done in 10% increments. Utilt has a sweetspot at the tip that lasts for the entire duration of the move. It does more damage and knockback, but I haven't tested it. Will do it later. Current results for utilt are sourspot damage. This does NOT include decimals. Also note that these are not exact percentages for when each move does more damage.

Jab: 4% at 0%, 5% at 10-20%, 6% at 30-50%, 7% at 60-80%, 8% at 90-100%, 9% at 110-120%, 10% at 130-140%, 11% at 150-170%, and 12% starting at 180%.

Ftilt: 6% at 0%, 7% at 10-20%, 8% at 30-40%, 9% at 50-60%, 10% at 70-80%, 11% at 90-100%, 12% at 110-120%, 13% at 130%, 14% at 140-150%, 15% at 160-170%, 16% at 180%, and 17% at 190%.

Dtilt: 3% at 0-20%, 4% at 30-60%, 5% at 70-100%, 6% at 110-130%, 7% at 140%-170%, and 8% starting at 180%.

Utilt: 3% at 0-20%, 4% at 30-60%, 5% at 70-100%, 6% at 110-130%, 7% at 140-170%, and 8% starting at 180%.

This should really help round down the percent at which move exactly increases at. Doing aerials next post.

 

[RT]

Yeah, so once again, Zero was wrong, unsurprisingly.

 

[Zoa]

BAIR CONFIRMED RIDICULOUS. Same stuff in my post above applies here. Uair has a slight lingering hitbox that acts as the move's sourspot. Test results are sweetspot for uair.

Fair: 3% at 0%, 4% at 10-30%, 5% at 40-60%, 6% at 70-90%, 7% at 100-120%, 8% at 130-150%, 9% at 160-180%, and 10% at 190%.

Bair (!): 9% at 0%, 10% at 10%, 11% at 20%, 12% at 30-40%, 13% at 50%, 14% at 60%, 15% at 70-80%, 16% at 90%, 17% at 100%, 18% at 110%, 19% at 120%, 20% at 130%, 21% at 140%, 22% at 150-160%, 23% at 170%, 24% at 180%, and 25% at 190%. Ridiculous scaling.

Nair: 5% at 0-10%, 6% at 20-40%, 7% at 50-60%, 8% at 70-90%, 9% at 100-110%, 10% at 120-130%, 11% at 140-150%, 12% at 160-170%, and 13% at 180%.

Dair: 7% at 0-10%, 8% at 20%, 9% at 40%, 10% at 60%, 11% at 70%, 12% at 90%, 13% at 110%, 14% at 120%, 15% at 140%, 16% at 150%, 17% at 170%, and 18% at 180%.

Uair: Numbers I have for uair are exact matches for dair.

Edit: Doing DA, pummel, and throw damage next.

 

[Zwzchow]

(I am so jealous cause my game shop's delivery was late)

He seems very good tho

dair doesn't stall now right?

what do you think are his reliable KO moves?

 

[Zoa]

Dash attack: 5% at 0%, 6% at 20%, 7% at 50%, 8% at 70%, 9% at 100%, 10% at 120%, 11% at 140%, 12% at 160%, and 13% at 180%.

Pummel: .5%(?) at 0% and 1% at 70%. It never goes above or to 2% damage.

Fthrow: 5% at 0%, 6% at 20%, 7% at 50%, 8% at 70%, 9% at 100%, 10% at 120%, 11% at 140%, 12% at 160%, and 13% at 180%.

Bthrow: 6% at 0%, 7% at 10%, 8% at 30%, 9% at 50%, 10% at 70%, 11% at 90%, 12% at 110%, 13% at 130%, 14% at 140%, 15% at 160%, 16% at 180%, and 17% at 190%.

Uthrow: 7% at 0%, 8% at 20%, 9% at 40%, 10% at 60%, 11% at 70%, 12% at 90%, 13% at 110%, 14% at 120%, 15% at 140%, 16% at 150%, 17% at 170%, and 18% at 180%.

Dthrow: 4% at 0%, 5% at 20%, 6% at 50%, 7% at 70%, 8% at 100%, 9% at 120%, 10% at 150%, and 11% at 170%.

 

[Zoa]

(I am so jealous cause my game shop's delivery was late)

He seems very good tho

dair doesn't stall now right?

what do you think are his reliable KO moves?

Dair still slows momentum a great deal, but doesn't completely halt momentum anymore. I haven't tested every move, so I really don't have a solid opinion on his entire kit yet.

 

[Zoa]

Ran Smash attacks differently. Ran each in 30% increments, but stopped at 190% for max aura instead of 180%. Fsmash is strongest point blank. It gets much weaker at the tip. Dsmash has a single hitbox throughout the move. Usmash has a hitbox to the sides that pushes into the strong hitbox. Damage numbers will add that hitbox in as well.

Fsmash uncharged: 10% at 0%, 13% at 30%, 15% at 60%, 18% at 90%, 21% at 120%, 24% at 150%, 27% at 180%, and 28% at 190%.
Charged: 14% at 0%, 18% at 30%, 21% at 60%, 25% at 90%, 28% at 120%, 32% at 150%, 36% at 180%, and 38% at 190%.

Dsmash uncharged: 9% at 0%, 11% at 30%, 13% at 60%, 16% at 90%, 18% at 120%, 21% at 150%, 23% at 180%, and 24% at 190%.
Charged: 12% at 0%, 15% at 30%, 18% at 60%, 21% at 90%, 25% at 120%, 28% at 150%, 32% at 180%, and 33% at 190%.

Usmash uncharged: 11% at 0%, 14% at 30%, 17% at 60%, 20% at 90%, 23% at 120%, 26% at 150%, 29% at 180%, and 30% at 190%.
Charged: 16% at 0%, 20% at 30%, 23% at 60%, 28% at 90%, 32% at 120%, 36% at 150%, 41% at 180%, and 42% at 190%.

Doing specials next. AS is going to be tested in increments of 20%. Rest of the specials will be tested like Smash attacks.

 

[Zoa]

Got all specials tested finally. Last results for his moves! AS is fully charged. FP flame has two hitboxes now. The bulk and the tip. I have data for both. The grab portion appears to have shorter range than Luc's standing grab. I had to be within Bowser's character model to even do the FP grab. I could grab Bowser when I was near his hand in his standing animation. I did the rest of the specials in 30% increments and went to 190% to ensure max aura was applied for the move.

Aura Sphere: 11% at 0%, 13% at 20%, 14% at 40%, 16% at 60%, 18% at 80%, 20% at 100%, 22% at 120%, 24% at 140%, 26% at 160%, 28% at 180%, and 29% at 190%.

FP flame tip: 4% at 0%, 6% at 30%, 7% at 60% , 8% at 90%, 9% at 120%, 11% at 150%, and 12% for 180-190%.
FP flame bulk: 7% at 0%, 9% at 30%, 11% at 60%, 13% at 90%, 15% at 120%, 17% at 150%, 19% at 180%, and 20% at 190%.
FP grab: 8% at 0%, 10% at 30%, 12% at 60%, 14% at 90%, 16% at 120%, 19% at 150%, 21% at 180%, and 22% at 190%.

Double Team: 7% at 0%, 8% at 30%, 10% at 60%, 12% at 90%, 14% at 120%, 16% at 150%, and damage caps at 18% around 180%. I pushed it to 190%, yet got the same damage. DT also hits reliably and hard from my tests with it. May change in the future.

 

[Zwzchow]

Are you planning to test distance of Extremespeed?

 

[yessi]

Can someone confirm if frame 1 fp is still in? I do it and it feels as fast as brawl.

Also, I was able to do all 4 of the wavebouncing things w/ aura sphere (I read somewhere that lucario couldn't do these anymore). Only problem I have is air dodging into the ground. A temporary solution I use is touching the ground then shield and jump at once.

 

[Zoa]

Are you planning to test distance of Extremespeed?

Honestly I do not know. I don't have any reliable methods to test distance in this game. Same for frames.

 

[Zoa]

Can the OP be updated with this information?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Is it me or can Double Team activate a bit earlier like as early as frame 4 or 5?

Also oh my gosh Force Palm range at high %s <3. Seriously some characters cannot punish it, however it can get reflected, the hitbox can get reflected and hit you. There's really no visual for that.

I think Broversal might still be doable, but much harder if so (until it gets released for Wii U).

Also at 147% I FSmashed and killed a Sheik at 49% in the middle of Omega Gerudo Valley. Rolls in general seem buffed for a number of characters, however we should master dat DSmash timing then.

Also, Air Walk is back (still need to test it OOS). I hereby rename it "Walking the Dog".

Lucario feels a bit faster than his Brawl incarnation and FTilt is a lottttt more spammable, but feels like it lost a bit of range.

Also, if your opponent crappily DIs after being hit with Extreme Speed you can combo into jabs on the ground.

Ugh Lucario's Jab, ugh. Also FSmash range debuff

 

[sparkaura]

I hate that f-smash is a lot more narrow than in brawl, and our jab is not great either. Everything else is pretty good, i'd say great honestly.

High % force palm is my new favorite move lol.

 

[Gune]

I can see why down smash has more range now for all the dodging and grabbing, that stuff is brutal but man does it get predictable and easy to punish.

 

[King Funk]

Dair doesn't cancel 100% momentum but you can still use it to do a sort of platform cancel/waveland (aka please read/answer my other thread). =p

 

[Loota]

Lucario can now spin his head around 360 degrees by doing an up angled ftilt and buffering a walk out of it (try it out with 1/4 speed). Good thing I found out the most useful thing so soon.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

@ Zoa Good stuff on the Aura percentages. I was working on noting it all down but you did it for me. ^_^

I'll be updating the OP today with all the new info.

Also looking at those percents posted, I think Mega Lucario is on a higher level all together in terms of scaling. Not surprising, though not really useful for competitive play but still worth noting.

I also can verify I was getting the same Percentages PhantomMewtwoX was getting for a lot of those moves. I'll be making a chart in Excel for this.

 

[Zoa]

@ Zoa Good stuff on the Aura percentages. I was working on noting it all down but you did it for me. ^_^

I'll be updating the OP today with all the new info.

Also looking at those percents posted, I think Mega Lucario is on a higher level all together in terms of scaling. Not surprising, though not really useful for competitive play but still worth noting.

I also can verify I was getting the same Percentages PhantomMewtwoX was getting for a lot of those moves. I'll be making a chart in Excel for this.

You're welcome.

I ran a couple of tests on Mega Lucario. A couple of his moves hit marginally harder than max aura Lucario. Fsmash does 40% point blank and fully charged, bair hits for 27%, and fully charged AS hits for 31%. Mega Lucario also has permanent super armor for the entire Mega Evolution. This applies even at 999%. Mega Lucario also has complete knockback resistance and only takes half damage from any attack.

 

[HitokiriBattousai]

Is it me or can Double Team activate a bit earlier like as early as frame 4 or 5?

defiantly feels that way i can react with it now were as in brawl it was much harder to do so i've even SDI'ed up out of Little Mac's jab combo and into a Double Team to catch him

overall Double Team seems like a much better tool then it was in Brawl and can truly be used to punish anyone who is to predictable

 

[RT]

Double Team is...actually useful. Never thought I would live the day to say that

 

[Zwzchow]

Ftilt is so fast...

I still suck at online tho haha

 

[RT]

Don't play online.

 

[hichez50]

Lucario can no longer counter windboxes. In brawl he could use DT on moves like DDDs neutral-B. Now he can't. I have tested it on Fluud, Pac-man's hydrant, DDDs Nuetral-B, and a few other moves that aren't coming to mind right now.


Great Job Phantom Mewtwo X.

For the Jab was that damage for the full combo? Have jab 1 data will be helpful. Jab 2 & 3 aren't always guaranteed.

Also information for BAS would be amazing.

 

[hichez50]

Also I don't remember who said that aura is no longer affected by stock count, but it is in doubles. I played multiple doubles matches and the Anubis strategy defiantly works. It does seem a bit tonned down though.

 

[Zwzchow]

Long Distance FP:
(Just trying to know how much weaker it is)
Note all percentages are subjected to +- 0.5% due to the damage info in practice showing a lower value than the actual % shown underneath

Flame tip: 2% at 0%, 3% at 30%, 4% at 60%, 4% at 90%, 5% at 120%, 6% at 150%, 6% at 180%, 7% at 190%
Flame bulk: 4% at 0%, 5% at 30%, 7% at 60%, 8% at 90%, 9% at 120%, 10% at 150%, 12% at 180%, 12% at 190%
Grab: 8% at 0%, 10% at 30%, 12% at 60%,14% at 90%, 16% at 120%, 19% at 150%, 21% at 180%, 22%

Conclusion: Long distance FP only decreases the power of the Flame but the grab retains its damage. Good spacing option tho
And FP kills Diddy at Luc 90% diddy 90%

For comparison:

FP flame tip: 4% at 0%, 6% at 30%, 7% at 60% , 8% at 90%, 9% at 120%, 11% at 150%, and 12% for 180-190%.
FP flame bulk: 7% at 0%, 9% at 30%, 11% at 60%, 13% at 90%, 15% at 120%, 17% at 150%, 19% at 180%, and 20% at 190%.
FP grab: 8% at 0%, 10% at 30%, 12% at 60%, 14% at 90%, 16% at 120%, 19% at 150%, 21% at 180%, and 22% at 190%.

Also misc.
Fully charged Down and Side Smash kills bowser at 75% (on both characters)
I just realized Lucario has a mega evolution pallete (3rd from right)

 

[Zoa]

Long Distance FP:
(Just trying to know how much weaker it is)
Note all percentages are subjected to +- 0.5% due to the damage info in practice showing a lower value than the actual % shown underneath

Flame tip: 2% at 0%, 3% at 30%, 4% at 60%, 4% at 90%, 5% at 120%, 6% at 150%, 6% at 180%, 7% at 190%
Flame bulk: 4% at 0%, 5% at 30%, 7% at 60%, 8% at 90%, 9% at 120%, 10% at 150%, 12% at 180%, 12% at 190%
Grab: 8% at 0%, 10% at 30%, 12% at 60%,14% at 90%, 16% at 120%, 19% at 150%, 21% at 180%, 22%

Conclusion: Long distance FP only decreases the power of the Flame but the grab retains its damage. Good spacing option tho
And FP kills Diddy at Luc 90% diddy 90%

For comparison:


Also misc.
Fully charged Down and Side Smash kills bowser at 75% (on both characters)
I just realized Lucario has a mega evolution pallete (3rd from right)

Where are you getting your FP tip and bulk damages? I'm testing in training now, and the damages are the exact same from my earlier results. Is this factoring stale move negation?

 

[Zwzchow]

Where are you getting your FP tip and bulk damages? I'm testing in training now, and the damages are the exact same from my earlier results. Is this factoring stale move negation?

Training mode
this is Long distance FP (custom move weaker FP but longer blast)

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Uh... is it me or can Lucario cancel jump into an FSmash? A dash canceled reverse FSmash seems possible. Might just be a pivot, but it seems a little weird.

I was trying to do some DACUSing and ran across this.

 

[Rizen]

How good is Lucario in SSB4? Would you say he's buffed, nerfed or about the same?

 

[Zoa]

Training mode
this is Long distance FP (custom move weaker FP but longer blast)

Oh cool. Thanks for that info.

 

[RT]

How good is Lucario in SSB4? Would you say he's buffed, nerfed or about the same?

Buffed in some ways, nerfed in others. I feel like his ground game is much stronger this time around than his air game. You should almost never approach with aerials, because so many other characters have better aerial approaches. His Force Palm is much more usable this time around; it's probably one of his best tools against any character without a reflector.

At least that's how I see it.

 

[Zwzchow]

Buffed in some ways, nerfed in others. I feel like his ground game is much stronger this time around than his air game. You should almost never approach with aerials, because so many other characters have better aerial approaches. His Force Palm is much more usable this time around; it's probably one of his best tools against any character without a reflector.

At least that's how I see it.

lol I tried to approach with aerials and clearly failed miserably
FP is a very good spacing option

EDIT:
Yowch Lucario has the 12th slowest running speed

 

[iruchii]

There's actually a reliable away to approach from the air with Lucario: short hop fast fall nair. You have to time it as the hitbox comes out just before you hit the floor. Because Lucario's nair has only 9 frames of landing lag, you can more often than not jab after hitting a shield and you'll punish any attempts of shield grabbing. If they "learn" this and decide to keep their shields up, you can then just grab after the nair. It's an interesting mixup.

 

[hichez50]

There's actually a reliable away to approach from the air with Lucario: short hop fast fall nair. You have to time it as the hitbox comes out just before you hit the floor. Because Lucario's nair has only 9 frames of landing lag, you can more often than not jab after hitting a shield and you'll punish any attempts of shield grabbing. If they "learn" this and decide to keep their shields up, you can then just grab after the nair. It's an interesting mixup.

The hitbox on Nair is so small. It seems so risky to do this.

 

[hichez50]

Uh... is it me or can Lucario cancel jump into an FSmash? A dash canceled reverse FSmash seems possible. Might just be a pivot, but it seems a little weird.

I was trying to do some DACUSing and ran across this.

What are the inputs I'll test it out.

 

[RT]

There's actually a reliable away to approach from the air with Lucario: short hop fast fall nair. You have to time it as the hitbox comes out just before you hit the floor. Because Lucario's nair has only 9 frames of landing lag, you can more often than not jab after hitting a shield and you'll punish any attempts of shield grabbing. If they "learn" this and decide to keep their shields up, you can then just grab after the nair. It's an interesting mixup.

You misunderstand what I am saying. Some characters just have better aerial approach options or spacing moves vs aerial Lucario. Not saying it's impossible.

 

[iruchii]

You misunderstand what I am saying. Some characters just have better aerial approach options or spacing moves vs aerial Lucario. Not saying it's impossible.

Oh, no, I completely agree that his aerial approaches are very limited. I just don't think they're as bad as some are making them out to be, but I'm not saying they're better than his ground play.

 

[HitokiriBattousai]

Oh, no, I completely agree that his aerial approaches are very limited. I just don't think they're as bad as some are making them out to be, but I'm not saying they're better than his ground play.

been trying to work out falling into a counter on them as many i've seen try to up smash or up Tilt a Lucario from above but because of how it stalls all downward momentum for a moment it is tricky but if done works out great


with his counter coming out faster i feel it may be a viable option but will take some getting used to before it can be spaced right and nice thing is you can even use the counter to dodge an attack in the air and the counter if it doesn't hit them will put Lucario back on the stage quickly so long as you aren't by the edge

 

[Sunnysunny]

The hitbox on Nair is so small. It seems so risky to do this.

I disagree completely. The n-air hitbox seems good enough to keep out of the majority of grab ranges when spaced right. Ya know, minus ridiculous ones like Zard. I rarely ever approach from the air, but given how good the cool down and start up is, I think the range is perfectly fine.