Lucario vs. Wolf (16) Export

[phi1ny3]

Wolf

​

Matchup:

50:50

General info:

The Wolf boards this even, but a lot of Lucarios have trouble with the match-up., and with good reason. Wolf is a decent character all around. He is quick, has combos, and a good kill move. The only thing sticking out with him is his recovery, but I'll get to that later.

First off, they are very afraid of our aura boost, and will try to kill us as soon as possible with their Dsmash.We can outrange their Dsmash though, so bait it and punish. They hate missing Dsmash, and are obsessed with keeping it fresh as to kill us soon, so this will tick some people off. From their discussion, I picked up that you can fully charge an AS, then sit on it for a long time to to make the Wolf go insane. You can also surprise the Wolf with a quick Uthrow, but you can't chain it without taking a serious risk. After the Uthrow, you can use the throw of your choice. Wolfs believe that our recovery is highly gimpable, so they don't worry about a gimp game. Although this is slightly true, our recovery is still much better than theirs, so gimping is a possibility. Our fair out prioritizes his Up B, so swat his feeble attempt of a recovery away when he, (Rarely), uses it. Wolf's Side B is faster than our ES, so if he is in range DO NOT EXTREME HOG, you will get gimped yourself. IIRC his Up B is still faster than ours, but is inferior to his Side B in terms of height to length ratios. Most of Wolf's attacks come out faster than ours, so watch out for that. Wolfs may also try to play a "Hit and Run" game against you, although I believe this is rare as they prefer to play their normal game against us. Lucario needs the air in this match-up, as a good air game could lead off of the stage where Wolf can't recover from.

As for stages;

For Us- Wolfs dislike PS1; the area under the ledge hurts their recovery, and the changing of the stage can disrupt their game. They'll most likely strike it though =\

For them- They'll use Corneria against us if it isn't banned, as their Dsmash will kill VERY early here, strike it if it isn't outright banned in the first place. YI is also o good stage for them. It focuses heavily on ground games, and Wolf can't be gimped here, giving Wolf a decent advantage against us. This is what you should stick to striking if Corneria is banned.


Overall, I'd call it a 50:50 match-up.

OK, some minor corrections:

- Lucario should never die at 110% against Wolf dsmash. I play alot against a Diddy player and he survives it to around 130% - and Lucario dies later than Diddy
- Lylat Cruise isn't that bad for Wolf. Wolf players hate it because it's bad in his harder match-up's like D3 or MK
- Wolfs blaster isn't fast enough to beat any combo. Idk why somebody would mention that...

I really hate giving numbers to match-ups but if I had to give one I'd say 5/5 or 55/45 Wolf. I feel like Wolf has a slight advantage in this match-up since Lucario has nothing abusable against Wolf (like a CG or something) but Wolf does very well in the air against all characters and he has a solid advantage on the ground. The biggest problem for Lucario is probably approaching Wolf since Wolfs bair/retreating fair beats Lucarios aerial approaches. On the ground spaced ftilts and jabs will make it hard for Lucario to approach - especially since Lucarios options are rather limited on the ground. You have to be very unpredictable and randomly use Aura Spheres and grabs at the right time...
Anyways here are tips on the match-up.

- If you face a fsmash happy Wolf you should consider yourself lucky. Fullhop dair will **** it. Overall Wolf shouldn't use fsmash a lot in this match-up. If you get hit by fsmash a lot you play the match-up wrong.
- Always be careful about throwing out a fully charged AS. Don't do it when you have high % or else he'll shine it back for an easy KO. If you're below 70% you can almost always use it, as long as you can survive it it's not a big problem if he manages to shine it back right in time.
- Don't spam your dair. Fair OoS will punish it badly and it's one of Wolfs best moves. It will hit you when you're above him and has decent KO power - never underrate it.
- When you approach always mix up aerials with ground moves and grabs. Using many aerials in a row is too predictable and Wolf will easily beat it with bair or retreating fair. On the other hand you can't rely on using only ground moves either as it's even easier for Wolf to beat them. If you're unpredictable you can find ways to get through his zoning tools.
- Watch out for the shine. It will not only break your comboes but it will also combo into AAA if he hits you while you're in the air. So comboes like fair -> nair are risky. Utilt comboes into other utilts for a while though and Wolf can't break out of it.
- Try to get him to the ledge. Good Wolfs always try to stay in the middle of the stage since it's very easy for them to control the stage from that position due to his high aerial mobility and his bair. Juggling him is difficult as he is mobile in the air and has the shine to stop juggle attempts but ledge traps can hurt him. If he's close to the ledge (with the ledge behind him) you have many options. Charged dsmash, jab, Pivot grab or SH Nair can be very good moves depending on his reaction.

I don't think Lucario has any particular CP stage here although FD seems to be a good choice. Living long is always good for Lucario and FD is the best stage in that regard.

What to avoid:

:flame:
My God I hate wolf...

You know how Lucario is one of the few people that can actually do honest comboes with his aerials and stuff? Wolf's Blaster and Reflector go fast enough that he can break our Comboes... half of our ability to fight him goes away... take the potency out of a Snake, and you just get a Belt... Our comboes are our potency, and Wolf makes us his belt. Those 2 attacks are also fast enough that he can use them to set up his own combos, and are good ways to pressure us...
It seems Wolf is only good at back airing someone to approach them... but it works well enough... and unlike Dedede, he is fast enough to do it enough times that it is hard to space, and yet he falls fast enough so he can respond to whatever we throw at him...
His side special lets him warp through certain stage boundaries, so we can't edgehog him too well... and if we try to gimp him, his up special (which seems to be better than Fox's and Falco's) is capable of meteoring us. I don't quite know what can stop it....
Aura Sphere is not too smart in this match... again, he is much faster than he seems, and his reflector comes out like lightning... and he can pretty much pull it out at any second he wants too... only use it if you are almost sure he won't reflect it....
The best thing against Wolf is to get quick seldom quick but hard hits. He might be chain grabable, being a space furry, but getting in close with those strangely formed smashes and side attacks is some times quite a chore... the range of his side smash (although it is a move that can be power-shielded, take advantage of that) is strange, and his downsmash is probably one of his favorite kill moves.... In general, it is easier to take Wolf on in the Air than on the Ground....
I'd prefer just sticking to natural stages that you work best with... I don't know any specific stages that give an advantage either way.... Try some of your more Crazy Ones, like Norfair Rainbow Road, Pokemon Stadium, the Frigate.... This is probably my worst match up. ;.; I hate Wolf so much. He is definitely someone with an advantage on us. Unless there is a game breaking move that I am too stupid to do, I will not accept anything above a 50:50....

In Sumation:

Avoid the DownSmash (Kill Move), Avoid getting Predictable with the Aura Sphere (Mind Game them!), Avoid getting off stage (swings both ways), Avoid getting yourself comboed (Back Air, Blaster, Reflector, Illusion, some grabs)....

Enforce Chain Grabs (Sucks to be a Furry!), Enforce Force Palm Grab (isn't it's range better than a regular grab anyway?), Enforce Powershielding his strange-*** Smashes (leaves him bait to be grabbed), Enforce Aura Sphere Mind Games (at 0 damage, he outprioritizes minispheres, but it's fun making him wonder when the big one will appear), Enforrce Combos (assuming Wolf doesn't litterally break them)....

Advantages and Disadvantages:It's about even... I should check and see when Wolf gets Koed by specific moves and when Lucario gets koed by them.... but they should be around a similar range (although Wolf is heavy and Lucario is medium light)... Wolf has it a little better on the ground, but Lucario has it a little better in the air.... he beats us in a projectile fight, but we might be better at comboing and grabs.... and neither person wants to fall off of the stage at any time....

Counter Pick: Not Battlefield. The Crazier the stage, probably the better...

Of course, my information is probably flawed. I am biased, since Wolf just seems to murder me 24-7. If you guys can contribute anything with a less Emo-ed mindset, that would probably be good.
:flame:

How to win:

remember the idea isnt to outright gimp wolf. you simply force him to land over the stage, and feed him full charge aura spheres in the landing lag.

dont even bother with his <100% get up attack. fsmash him at the edge if hes over 100% and its all good (that might be the wrong way around, either way fsmash owns one of his get-up possibilities)

Helpful tips:

Just a note, IIRC, Wolf lagless fair (basically fullhop fair) is very useful, especially on places like BF, where if performed correctly, will hardly ever get landing lag on both platforms and the stage.
nair crossovers, bair walling, and blaster can all be tricky to deal with.
Imo, this is going to be a tricky "guess the move" game, and PS will definitely be an order of the day, as more close range moves like jab/ftilt will get nullified if used properly.
This is one of those weird matchups where I feel there's use for both BAS and AS. As long as you don't get predictable (or you can mindgame them to reflecting BAS to divert an aerial approach, but that's if they were born yesterday) you'll stay pretty good from the shine and won't have much of a problem with it. Wolf is really really good onstage, lots of nice control game stuff. I would also advise throws, particularly throws that give you nice damage in the beginning (I prefer dthrow), because the chances of actually starting a string off (this too is also difficult, since they can shine) is better, and as is punishing.
blaster is obviously pressure stuff, it does have some nice properties.
I kind of love lucario bair and dair in this matchup (and to an extent, uair) most of these can pseudo-string (basically follow into each other kind of well) on a character like wolf in mid percents (ex. bair -> jump aerial depending on DI). This is actually kind of a win-win situation, it's enough time that they usually can't get out if you follow their DI, it's just a small window of time so that retaliation on wolf's part is risky, and best of all, it sets up for a nice gimp situation, considering these all do nice knockback and you should be considering a offstage game at about mid percent anyways.
lucario fsmash is pretty decent, I like actually all of lucario's tilts (ftilt for pressure and "catching" a landing opponent, dtilt to set up a trap, etc.).
Imo japes could be decent (though it's not like you don't have to worry about a control game), FD, and Lylat are my options.
I would shy away from BF, Pirate ship (more or less). Good control, expansive stage ground, and good platform stuff for wolf since lucario's platform game isn't entirely top tier.

It's like the same with DK.

His aerials don't break combos very well so he's forced to take passive measures to escape. Abuse that knowledge.

Be aware of his shine though.

Ok, I typed one up real fast xD. Here we go.

Matchup on wolf.

This is the character that in my honest opinion is the most even matchup for Lucario. He is not to hard, but also he is not so easy. Wolf packs a punch as well as speed when he is on the stage. For the most part wolf will be using his Bair for spacing as well as approaching. That move alone is hard for Lucario to surpass as it deals a good amount of damage even when it gets stale. The one thing that wolf has that not a lot of characters in the game can get out of is the jab > FP combo. Wolf drops too fast and can react and hit you if you try this, so I wouldn’t advise using it as much for this matchup. Also wolf is unable to be chain-grabbed by FP. As if comes to AS, wolf has a reflector that comes out relatively early, and to add onto it he has invincibility frames from frame 1 ion the move. Only use the AS if wolf is completely open on stage. My setup for AS normally goes to wolf when he is off stage. Wolf has a pretty bad recovery, and it is gimpable as well. If you were to shoot AS while he was trying to come back to the stage, he has limited options. He can choose to reflect it, but wolf drops like a rock and then would have to recover after. He can air dodge but faces the same fate. What to do is to force him intone of those options and then punish him for it.

A lot of people are afraid if Wolfs Side-B recovery. It is fast, but it still falls into the same problem as fox and falco. That problem would be that there is only 3 stages of the move. Fox and falco have the illusion (Side-B) that has 3 different forms.

1) The first form is that fox and falco goes max distance, but then falls near the end of the spot where the move ends.

2) The 2nd version is the same as the first, but fox and falco get a power slide effect. Meaning that they slide out of the side-B and continue.

3) The last form of fox and falcos Side B is the shortened distance one, where they cut 1/3 of the range of Side B.

Wolf has the same thing as fox in falco, except he only has the first effect and the 2nd effect I just listed above. To bait, measure, and punish his Side-B recovery is easier then move people think, just need to practice it more.

In close range combat Wolf pretty much beats you out. I would like to note that he is one of the few characters in the game who can also punish you Fsmash at max range. The move he would use for that is his Side smash which pretty much gets the same distance as out Fsmash, so beware throwing this move idiotically. In the air however, Wolf loses. You fair will outrange his fair if he trys to approach with it, and (someone test thing, because I am about to say something I am not sure about) His Bair can be beat out by our fair, or if not beat out trade hits.

The one thing that wolf has an issue with is that Our Fair to Nair combo works on him for a long time before he gets knocked too far for it to combo anymore. So this combo should decently be utilized into your game for this matchup.
I think what I am about to say is the most important thing in this matchup. You must utilize your ground game, as well as your air game properly in terms of mixing up your play style to keep wolf guessing. This may seem like a "Duh, Why wouldn't you do that anyway" and here is the reason whyWolfs laser makes a perfect anti aerial tool on Lucario. You need to have a strong ground game as well as a good air game to win this, and you need to play passive/aggressive the whole match. Playing too passive will have wolf run circles on you, but playing too aggressive is also not the smartest idea for the fact that his weight makes it a bit easier to drop out of lucario’s combos. Simply wait for him to throw a move you are in range to punish, and then capitalize on it until wolf recovers from his mistake. From that point just recycle and repeat.

For this matchup, as I already said at the beginning, is a 50/50. There is no less for the matchup, as well as no more.

Update: I also come to realize that there has been testing on wolf about an Uthrow Chaingrab. If it is true then make sure you utilize in your game, but also keep in mind that for the last grab to finish with the most powerful throw you have at the current moment. =]

Edit2: Also timbers, don't forget to add the numbers on the matchup chart ^_^

The big yellow post seems pretty accurate. I'd call it about neutral myself as well, maybe 55:45 wolf.

Wolf can jumpshine OoS, which does great against fair > *insert aerial here*. If you can powershield wolf's attacks consistently, you'll have a much easier time in the matchup. BAS (is that what you guys call them, baby aura spheres? idk, I tried) annoy me, especially if you randomly throw them out of a SH, but that's just cause I'm always SHing bairs >_> You might want to do that if wolf is a good distance away, to limit his ability to approach with SHs. Try to get wolf to use his fsmash after blocking your fsmash, I'm not sure if it should even work, but if they're frustrated enough they'll definitely try, and if you spaced fsmash well it's an easy punish.

Stages:

Thanks for the correction, I've edited my post with your post in mind

FD doesn't seem like a good CP judging by what you said about them staying close to the middle of the stage, FD's specialty. Also, PS1 is a decent counterpick for Lucario IMO.

I would shy away from BF, Pirate ship (more or less). Good control, expansive stage ground, and good platform stuff for wolf since lucario's platform game isn't entirely top tier.

Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.

 

[phi1ny3]

Reserved for shenanigans.
tbh, I didn't really like the discussion, it seemed too BLEH or something like that.
Oh well, we'll come around for rediscussion sometime.

 

[The_Bear735]

imo it should be 55-45 because of how ******** we can be with our aerials vs. Wolf. the only threat wolf has for aerials is Bair, and even then that's just for spacing.

 

[fonzi21]

We do have a chain grab on wolf with uthrow...it goes to like 26% maybe 32% then has guaranteed Utilt after the last throw. to do like 40% total or something depending on our aura, its not super easy to do, but you can do it.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Why would you Utilt and not Dthrow or Bthrow for more damage?

 

[mew1000]

Wolf is not that bad for me but I need to stop whith the Dair

 

[Steam]

Also pummel release him at the ledge for a very high likelyhood of gimping him.

 

[culexus・wau]

Don't bring wolf to ps1.

Ever.

****ing dumb sideb shenanigans :<

 

[Steam]

I think frigate would be good for us...

 

[D. Disciple]

Why would you Utilt and not Dthrow or Bthrow for more damage?

Wolf falls fast, so you can follow up better after utilt, and if you bait the shine. You can shield grab him again.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

On the final grab UThrow will probably be stale as heck, so why not instead use Dthrow or BThrow?

 

[phi1ny3]

depends on what you want and preference, frankly I'd like the raw damage of dthrow or bthrow, especially since dthrow you can still somewhat juggle/trap with it, and with bthrow if you're near the edge you can throw him offstage.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I prefer the utilt since it can be more rewarding, but guaranteed 10% after a CG to 38% works to.

 

[Neverbound]

Paw cancel(jab) into >b leik 3 or four times I guess? his blaster is nothing to fear if you are proficient at powershielding. The main disadvantages I have a concern with is that Wolf can gimp us easily and jumpshine is baaaaaad for us

 

[Steam]

wolf cannot gimp lucario easily... all of his aerials can be DI'd up and his shine is very bad at gimping us compared to fox's. However we gimp him extremely well. It's probably our biggest advantage in the matchup.

 

[iLink]

I found some rather misleading info in that discussion.

Already mentioned, Lucario does have chaingrab on him. Also his reflector does a pretty good job at breaking combos so he doesn't necessarily need to use an aerial to do it.

His fair can be auto canceled out of a short hop and doesn't need to full hop.

Aurasphere on their landing lag isn't always the best idea because you could risk it being reflected.

The biggest things to watch out for IMO are bair spacing, reflector and short hop airdodge approaches. A common way wolf's try to get their KO's in is to SH airdodge behind you and dsmash.