Lucario Matchup Thread: Olimar!

[Kitamerby]

Hopefully not imposing, but I'll take my chances. We are currently discussing Lucario vs. Olimar over at the Lucario boards and it's Olimar's chance to shine. =P! If you feel you can contribute to this matchup, then please do!


-What specific troubles do you have with Lucario as a Olimar player? Does Lucario shut down any of your game?


-What advantages do you feel Lucario has against you?


-What disadvantages do you feel Lucario has against you?


-Is there any method or strategic goal you would use to win this match?


-What stages would you want to counterpick against a Lucario? What stages would you want to avoid?


I would greatly appreciate it if players of the board would give their input on the matches, thanks!

 

[ZeroSuitX]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203560
You might look for some answers from this ^ thread

 

[Awex]

I posted in the thread ZeroSuit linked to but I'll address your more specific questions as well. =)

-Lucario shuts down a lot of Olimar's aerial game.

-Lucario has great priority in the air which hurts Olimar's aerial game/sh game a lot, and decent edgeguard abilities to boot.

-Olimar shuts down Lucario's ground game. Unlike a lot of characters, Olimar can punish Lucario's fsmash with grabs or fsmashes. Pikmin toss or fsmash to make pikmin separated from Olimar make shields against Aura Sphere

-You wanna fight him this way <--- --->

and he wants to come in this way v

That's how I put it in the other thread. Essentially, stay grounded, punish any air approach with pivot grabs.

-Pretty much any Olimar will pick Luigi's Mansion on you. We can camp behind the pillars with our projectile, you can't. Your aerial mobility is also limited. And of course, upsmash into the ceiling to roll chase. ;D

If you ban Luigi's, expect Corneria for similar campy reasons/low ceiling.

You're pretty safe to pick Jungle Japes. Pikmin can't swim and then we lose our recovery and die. ;x
Your aura sphere also becomes more usable given the uneven levels so pikmin can't stop them as much.

Almost certainly though the Olimar will switch characters if you pick Japes though, so be ready for that. ;x

Hope that helps =)

 

[RichBrown]

I'm actually unusually good for an olimar on japes, I know how to control the middle of the stage lol ^_^

 

[DtJ Hilt]

-You wanna fight him this way <--- --->

and he wants to come in this way v

xD to this day i still dont get that diagram. Something about me being horizontal and him being a "v"

yeah, jungle japes isnt TOO bad on olimar... it's a little bit easier to get not-gimped, with the water saving you, as long as you're not on the left. Some tournaments have rainbow cruise as counterpick, which is imo olimar's worst for obvious reasons. But that's beyond the point.

 

[Awex]

You want to fight him where he's positioned on either side of you. He wants to fight you from directly above or just in the air.

that's about it. ;p

 

[BlackWaltzX]

Olimar can spam pikmin on the lucario almost as easily as he can do to D3.
Once we have to kill Lucario, we can whistle Lucario's Dair into our upsmash, grab (easily) or nair/killmove.

Olimar wins this fight.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Can olimar Smashes or Pikmin toss penetrate Lucario's aura sphere charge?

 

[BlackWaltzX]

Charging? Yes.
After you shoot it, they both collide.
Forward B from purple knocks the sphere and sometimes lives.


Lucario's BEST tool is approaching with fair, as it knocks ALL pikmin away unless we aim at your head.

 

[Browny]

how long does whistle SA last? you do realise lucarios dair lasts a long time?

 

[BlackWaltzX]

The whistle lasts as long. (If it's hit)
It basically increases every time it's hit.
I've whistled a FULL snake's nair before.

 

[Awex]

Olimar's whistle lasts quite long enough to stop dair.

Blackwaltz: That's pretty crazy lol. Best I've got is whistling all of MK's 3 hit moves a bunch of times ;p

 

[BlackWaltzX]

You mash DownB to nair fellas.

 

[L_Cancel]

wow... I can't believe I never thought of whistling Lucario's dair >.<

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Lucario's double team v. Olimar camp tactics - opinions?

A lot of the Lucario mainers disagree on theeffectiveness of double team in stopping Olimar from using pikmin toss, as well as it's viability as an approach against Olimar.

 

[DanGR]

Lucario's double team v. Olimar camp tactics - opinions?

A lot of the Lucario mainers disagree on theeffectiveness of double team in stopping Olimar from using pikmin toss, as well as it's viability as an approach against Olimar.

Using DT as an approach? LOL

edit: Wow, I got a bloody nose from a facepalm.

 

[XienZo]

Wow, I got a bloody nose from a facepalm.

Epic win...

Lucario can't approach with DT (from pikmin latch) well because Olimar hears *whoosh*, it activates, *bzzt*, Lucario disappears, and a moment later, he slides at you in his invincibility.

Except Olimar had enough time to categorize all your pikmin by then...

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Using DT as an approach? LOL

edit: Wow, I got a bloody nose from a facepalm.

Explain please. This approach is matchup specific, and has been highly effective against Pikmin Toss, if Olimar uses that attack. At least, I have yet to see an Olimar punish Lucario for Double Teaming. I've been asking around about video evidence of Olimar grabbing Lucario out of DT, but no one's posted anything yet.

EDIT: Lucario doesn't HIT you with DT . He just approaches with it. He grabs you out of your shiled after then end of the DT, more often than not.

 

[BlackWaltzX]

Explain please. This approach is matchup specific, and has been highly effective against Pikmin Toss, if Olimar uses that attack. At least, I have yet to see an Olimar punish Lucario for Double Teaming. I've been asking around about video evidence of Olimar grabbing Lucario out of DT, but no one's posted anything yet.

EDIT: Lucario doesn't HIT you with DT . He just approaches with it. He grabs you out of your shiled after then end of the DT, more often than not.

.... lol?
Fair is a better approach, don't even think about DT as a good approach.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

.... lol?
Fair is a better approach, don't even think about DT as a good approach.

Lucario's double team was made to abuse Pikmin toss.

EDIT: Have you ever been double teamed by a good player, the type that would reverse double team into a grab-throw combo? How have you punished him for this?

 

[BlackWaltzX]

If it's too close, we hit you, if you are far away, no space gained that fair could not do.
Let's talk about actual tactics against each other rather than random silly stuff. ):
We do that after. :3

 

[The Halloween Captain]

If it's too close, we hit you, if you are far away, no space gained that fair could not do.
Let's talk about actual tactics against each other rather than random silly stuff. ):
We do that after. :3

This is an actual tactic. It really does make Pikmin toss ineffective. If it's too close, invincibility frames through your block. Correct distance = free grab for Lucario. To far... well, I think I may have been punished, but I'm rarely too far myself; the attack has great range.

EDIT: Look, you can't counter every experience I've ever had against Olimar this way. Is there a video of the DT failing with which I can better understand your arguement?

 

[BlackWaltzX]

No videos, just cold hard logic I'm afraid. ):

 

[The Halloween Captain]

No videos, just cold hard logic I'm afraid. ):

Neither do the Lucario boards. I checked youtube, and I didn't see anything. In spite of logic, the double team has worked consistently for me. I really need to see it fail to understand the conditions under which it fails. Remember, Lucario can grab out of DT, which means even if he hits Olimars sheild, he can grab Olimar. DT also has invincibility frames.

 

[asob4]

you can just... jump away... or.... dodge

 

[Zori]

Don't get gra....... Double teamed.

 

[XienZo]

We can just short hop a nair if we really had DT trouble. Alternately, if you're using it to approach, we can walk back and charge the F-smash, since DT just turns into a shorter version of Falco's illusion in terms of punishing.

Except that Lucario can grab.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Or you could not use Pikmin toss. Pikmin toss against Lucario is to give him a very powerful move with lots of range that he can grab out of almost immediately, and the move has invincibility frames. Pikmin toss damage is useful, but it does give Lucario the ability to use his strongest attack at will, which does not seem like a wise move.

 

[asob4]

a predictable move >_>

pikmin toss is amazing as it will almost always give damage and yeah... it's easy to dodge DT

 

[The Halloween Captain]

a predictable move >_>

pikmin toss is amazing as it will almost always give damage and yeah... it's easy to dodge DT

Prove it. Find a good player that knows how to do the Double team tactics well, and post a vid. It is NOT easy to dodge the grab at the end of Double team, even if you shield. besides, Aren't your options kinda limitted compared to Lucario's if you jump to dodge the DT?

Double team has almost no cooldown lag. Pikmin toss is guarenteed to activate this powerful attack.

 

[DanGR]

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Sorry dude, it just

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doesn't work.

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10iwasboreds

 

[DMG]

DT does not work very well vs Olimar. I am DMG, I know enough about Lucario, Olimar, Wario, and your mother to confidently say DT to grab is not really a very good option for Lucario to use anywhere near consistently with effective results against Olimar.

 

[asob4]

you're not accounting rolling or spot dodging into your theorycrafting
why would anyone let themselves get grabbed when they see it coming?

 

[DMG]

you're not accounting rolling or spot dodging into your theorycrafting
why would anyone let themselves get grabbed when they see it coming?

My response was funnier, but yes this is what I was thinking.

 

[Kitamerby]

Or you could not use Pikmin toss. Pikmin toss against Lucario is to give him a very powerful move with lots of range that he can grab out of almost immediately, and the move has invincibility frames. Pikmin toss damage is useful, but it does give Lucario the ability to use his strongest attack at will, which does not seem like a wise move.

...It's not Lucario's strongest attack, and while this idea in theory SEEMS like it could work, against anyone with a reaction time less than 12 years, this won't work.

Prove it. Find a good player that knows how to do the Double team tactics well, and post a vid. It is NOT easy to dodge the grab at the end of Double team, even if you shield. besides, Aren't your options kinda limitted compared to Lucario's if you jump to dodge the DT?

Double team has almost no cooldown lag. Pikmin toss is guarenteed to activate this powerful attack.

A good player... who uses Double Team? I'm sorry, bud, but there are none. Double Team sucks. It's a sad fact of life. I've landed more Warlock Punches than Double Teams.

you're not accounting rolling or spot dodging into your theorycrafting
why would anyone let themselves get grabbed when they see it coming?

Pivot grab. GG. No more worries about Double Team.

 

[Timbers]

Prove it.

You prove it. Everyone has already ****ing said that it's not good to approach with. You're the only one fighting for it, so you better bring some "proof" to the table.

This is like ness rocket except there's no simna and a hoard of ness mains riding his coattails.


I feel so bad for this thread that it devolved to whether DT is an approach option or not lol. Wow.

 

[KillerSOS]

DT sucks. End of story.

 

[BlackWaltzX]

Everyone, DT is GOOD. It sounds like you say it's bad. There -are- opportunities to use this, but as an approach, it's awful.

 

[KillerSOS]

It is so easy just to jump over... you can see it coming from a mile away.