Lord of the Rings mafia: Game Over

[Chaco]

But nevertheless, it was FoS worthy. Especially since it means he wasn't paying attention at that time.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Waitwut

Dumb or scum?

What about
Town or scum
cuz being dumb
has nothing to do with allignment
~-~

 

[Chaco]

Dumb means dumb town, Xonar.

 

[Kirbyoshi]

So...you're leaning scum over dumb atm, Chaco?

 

[Chaco]

If he's scum, acting as if he didn't know Os was dead is a weird gambit. I'd be more inclined to just say it was dumb in this case. But still, I'm severely uncertain because I'm not used to this play from him.

 

[adumbrodeus]

My post showed that I didn't like Xonar's post that I quoted, while at the same time posing a question to him. I'm good on my word; when Xonar answers my question, I'll answer his. Still waiting on his answer though.

It's the WAY you did it that's scummy.


Instead of saying, "that's scummy", rather then actually proving your case, you chose to shift the burden of proof on the opponent to prove they're not scum, that way if they get lynched, you can say, "well, they didn't show why their play was pro-town, especially since not all good town play is explicitly obvious as pro-town".


You can only do that if you already made a strong case against somebody, which you haven't.

Let Chaco answer.

Useless question is useless, he already gave you the answer.

I haven't gotten to comment on much else you have said. Either someone else has said my thoughts before me, or I didn't find it worthy of comment.

So, out of everything I said, you have no unique comments? Really?

We can agree to disagree on that, I guess.

When you're ignoring pretty much obvious scum, no we can't.

I'd rather hear Vrael's comments first.

Then, I don't know, how about some pressure?

There's no point in soft claiming a power role and claiming to have information and then not saying anything. He's obviously wanting to spill it, I don't know why he's hesitating.

Claim means VT too, he said it back when OS was pressuring him, he never said that he has a power role of any sort.

@adum, generally yes. I was giving Summoner the benefit of the doubt, but Vrael hasn't done anything that would change my opinion of the slot considerably.

Pressure please then?

I think that post is scummy as all hell. You know when you're little, and a kid does something bad, and when you ask him why he did that, he responds "How did you know it was me?" That's what I get from this post.

Not really an actual scumtell, it's one of those things that's easy to jump on, but doesn't actually suggest a side.

EBWODP: Though I do think that Vrael has a chance to tell us exactly what's been going on from his perspective. Subbing in for another character in Pikmafia, I understand how hard it is to come in and start for someone else, but you gotta do it if we're gonna get anywhere.

Fair enough, but he needs to actually, you know, RESPOND.




As far as not knowing OS is dead, null tell, that says that either he wasn't paying sufficient attention (which helps no side) or he posted when drunk or something. It gives no advantage to either side to pretend you didn't know either.







@Xonar: That's get some legitimate discussion going, who do you think is scum?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Don't know accidently deleted my notepad with allignments, gotta revise that stuff. Test in few mins, then some more homework. Sorry that I haven't been into this game/mafia at all, I need to work hard to still pass this year.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

What problems you have should I acknowledge?

Still want answers to this

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Yeah I don't really see where the votes are coming from at all.

 

[McCloud]

Claim means VT too

VT? It's been a while since I've played forum mafia, so forgive me if I don't know the acronyms.

@Xonar I'm going to go ahead and say that I highly doubt you had a document with alignments, seeing as we repeatedly requested for you to post something other than ******** nonsense and you systematically refused to do it.

@Mac, adum, chaco What are your thoughts on Xonar and Kirby? I don't personally see an alignment between the two, but I think they're both relatively scummy.

@adum regarding pressure, I'd be willing to pressure Vrael if he doesn't respond after today.

I really would like people to pressure Xonar more. My vote on him isn't making him talk, and I really want to make him talk. It bothers me so much -_-

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

It was kinda lagging behind lulz.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Mac is chaco town according to ur meta atm?
Kirby explain to me why you aren't voting Summoner

vote: summoner

 

[Kirbyoshi]

Response to immediate post: Because Summoner isn't in this game anymore >.<

 

[Kirbyoshi]

Um, hai McCloud. Care to give your reasoning on me? VT is Vanilla Townie btw.

Xonar's (previous?) playstyle helps scum because they can fly under the radar with one less person putting heavy pressure on them. It also lowers the standard of activity, because it sets a precedent for just popping in every now and again to say hi and ask a question or two, not really acting like you're paying attention to the game.

And Adum, because I don't feel like quoting everything in your post, I'll just number the comments according to how they were ordered in your post:
1) I wasn't trying to get Xonar immediately lynched, I was trying to get him to say something useful. And is asking counter-questions a privilege now?
2) At the time I posted that, he hadn't. It's annoying when someone answers for someone else. Generally, you should wait until the person to whom the question was addressed answers before you give your comments.
3) Not until now. Before OS flipped town I actually thought you two were buddies and I was going to go hard after you once he died.
4) Who, in your opinion, is the "obvious scum" that I'm supposedly missing?
5) I'll check his profile after I post this, but I haven't seen Vrael around at all. Pressure votes do nothing if the person isn't here to see them.

 

[Chaco]

@Mac: I see no connection between Kirby and Xonar. I'd be inclined to say they are not scum partners.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

@Mac: I see no connection between Kirby and Xonar. I'd be inclined to say they are not scum partners.

You WOULD be inclined?

 

[Chaco]

You don't like contractions or something?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

A would is often followed by a but.

 

[Chaco]

But not in this case.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I guess I'm just weird

 

[adumbrodeus]

Xonar's (previous?) playstyle helps scum because they can fly under the radar with one less person putting heavy pressure on them. It also lowers the standard of activity, because it sets a precedent for just popping in every now and again to say hi and ask a question or two, not really acting like you're paying attention to the game.

His play is certainly not pro-town, that's why I'm putting him under pressure, but anti-town is NOT the same thing as scummy.

Your attempts to portray him as overtly scummy are reaching and scummy in and of itself.

And Adum, because I don't feel like quoting everything in your post, I'll just number the comments according to how they were ordered in your post:
1) I wasn't trying to get Xonar immediately lynched, I was trying to get him to say something useful. And is asking counter-questions a privilege now?

Attempting to ask questions isn't the problem, it's the way and context of which you're asking them, what you ask and how you ask them is making them more and more scummy.

2) At the time I posted that, he hadn't. It's annoying when someone answers for someone else. Generally, you should wait until the person to whom the question was addressed answers before you give your comments.

He Fos'd xonar before I answered. You seem to be missing many obvious things.

3) Not until now. Before OS flipped town I actually thought you two were buddies and I was going to go hard after you once he died.

So... were you not paying attention or are you bad at picking up scumtells

4) Who, in your opinion, is the "obvious scum" that I'm supposedly missing?

You missed the case against Vrael?

5) I'll check his profile after I post this, but I haven't seen Vrael around at all. Pressure votes do nothing if the person isn't here to see them.

He took enoough time to post on the thread. Heck, you don't even need pressure votes, things like asking questions or showing support, a FoS perhaps.

@Mac, adum, chaco What are your thoughts on Xonar and Kirby? I don't personally see an alignment between the two, but I think they're both relatively scummy.

Kirbyoshi/Vrael seems much more likely, he seems to be doing anything he can to derail the wagon when there's a great deal of evidence to support.

Xonar is a good default lynch if we don't have any people committing actual scumslips, he could be attempting to hide scummyness or he could simply be playing obtuse because he's a poor player or has a power role to defend. But he should be kept talking in order to bring out information that will give a read.

@adum regarding pressure, I'd be willing to pressure Vrael if he doesn't respond after today.

Fair enough, but keep in mind it's a common scum tactic to vanish when under heavy pressure, it's known to derail wagons, because people have a tendancy to have short memories.

I really would like people to pressure Xonar more. My vote on him isn't making him talk, and I really want to make him talk. It bothers me so much -_-

Vrael first, he's overtly scummy, Xonar is just being obtuse.


Or he was...



@Xonar: See, the rest of it could be explained by just not paying enough attention, but this is just an overt distraction.


FoS: Xonar


@Chaco: Why did you bite?

 

[Chaco]

Because, if he wants answers he's going to get them. It's not derailing the game to an extent that it's completely annoying. I'll admit, he's being annoying though.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

K so I just got back from vacation, I posted that I wasn't going to be on very much. But anyway I'll go back to Adum's original post on me:

You're not wiggling out of it that easily, summoner committed major scumtells, hell he breadcumbed that OS was busing Chaco if he flipped scum, if nothing else.

"He" being Chaco, I presume? This is a nine man game, there are probably 2 scum. If Chaco had been lynched and flipped scum, and OS was busing him, then how would Summoner know anything about that?

This made me somewhat more suspicious of chaco because he might have been trying to get OS to back off in order to protect chaco, but not much, because it took heavy pressure for me to force anything out of him, so him attempting to implicate both chaco and OS seems more likely at the moment. If he wanted to protect Chaco he would've said it of his own accord.

Can you rephrase this? You say it made you suspicious of Chaco "because he might have been trying to get OS to back off in order to protect chaco" but that doesn't really make sense. Do you mean to say Summoner instead of the first Chaco or something? I'm confused. If you could clear it up then I could more accurately respond to it, thanks.

I don't really see why anyone would say "I want to protect X player," like you say Summoner should have done, because that just looks like they're scumbuddies, regardless of actual alignment.

Add to the fact that OS was an incredibly easy target, but he didn't ever actually do anything scummy, just anti-town. That made it easy to feel safe jumping on his bandwagon which I think was exactly what he was trying to attract.

The fact that OS was an easy target makes it even easier for anyone in the game to kill him off without attracting too much suspicion to themselves. Hell, easy targets are quite often killed early (like OS was) just because of the fact that they're easy targets.

That combined with his incredibly scummy activity pattern tells me one thing, your playslot is almost definitely mafia and needs to die.

I don't see why you would hold his spotty activity over my head. And yes I was out of town, you can say what you want about that but I had no chance at getting on a computer, and it's pretty difficult to post from my phone.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

i feel like i've been gone for a while

i'll come back either today or the day after.

 

[McCloud]

Letting you guys know I will be v/la with limited access from the 8th to the 13th. I will be able to check every night but don't expect lengthy posts.

 

[Chaco]

This game is stagnating severely. Not a lot to go on right now.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I want Mac to post ffs

 

[adumbrodeus]

"He" being Chaco, I presume? This is a nine man game, there are probably 2 scum. If Chaco had been lynched and flipped scum, and OS was busing him, then how would Summoner know anything about that?

Obviously you haven't been paying attention.

There was no evidence that OS was bussing Chaco, and he said:

If he flips scum, congratulations, but what made you so sure? People will be thinking it's some sort of scum bus play D1.

Saying it was a bus because OS was "sure", there are only two legitimate explanations for that play.

1. He was trying to protect chaco by telling OS to back off.

2. He was trying to implicate both of them.


Considering the situation, number 2 is more likely because he did it not as a reaction to OS's attack, but as a reaction to my pressure. An attempt to distract from suspicion by targeting somebody more suspicious.

Can you rephrase this? You say it made you suspicious of Chaco "because he might have been trying to get OS to back off in order to protect chaco" but that doesn't really make sense. Do you mean to say Summoner instead of the first Chaco or something? I'm confused. If you could clear it up then I could more accurately respond to it, thanks.

I don't really see why anyone would say "I want to protect X player," like you say Summoner should have done, because that just looks like they're scumbuddies, regardless of actual alignment.

Heh?


I don't know where you're getting that from but...




But it was answered above.


I never said he should've said he wanted to protect chaco, what he actually seemed to be trying to say was, "I think this is a bus" but he gave no real reasoning.

The fact that OS was an easy target makes it even easier for anyone in the game to kill him off without attracting too much suspicion to themselves. Hell, easy targets are quite often killed early (like OS was) just because of the fact that they're easy targets.

Occassionally by bad scum, but smart scum wants to NK the less scummy players generally. There are exceptions obviously, but it's much easier to create a mislynch on a player that most people think is scum then on an obvious pro-town player.

I don't see why you would hold his spotty activity over my head. And yes I was out of town, you can say what you want about that but I had no chance at getting on a computer, and it's pretty difficult to post from my phone.

Because he was playing your role PM, his scummyness is your scummyness. Sorry you got stuck with a bad player as the previous person to hold your spot, but... actually no I'm not, makes my win easier. But seriously, like it or not, when you're scum, the game is about hiding that fact. When the previous player lets the cat out of the bag, you're known scum, nothing you can do.

This game is stagnating severely. Not a lot to go on right now.

Well, then will you join me in pressuring Vrael?


Summoner made so many slips that I'm almost positive Vrael is scum and he's given a lot to comment on.

 

[Chaco]

Mhm, I like your case on him after a quick reread as well.

Not liking Mac's inactivity, makes me uneasy about him. I like him when hes talking and I know what hes thinking.

Vote: Vrael

 

[Kirbyoshi]

Um, hai McCloud. Care to give your reasoning on me?

I'd like a phone-post answer to this pl0x.

What's Vrael's L- atm?

 

[Kirbyoshi]

Um, hai McCloud. Care to give your reasoning on me?

I'd like a phone-post answer to this pl0x.

What's Vrael's L- atm?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Not liking Mac's inactivity, makes me uneasy about him. I like him when hes talking and I know what hes thinking.

Vote: Vrael

I dunno, I don't really like any inactivity, and there seems to be a lot of it. It makes it too easy for any scum to just pass by unnoticed if lots of people aren't posting very much.

Obviously you haven't been paying attention.

Sorry that I missed that post, but if you recall I replaced into the game, it's difficult for me to remember everything that has been said. Linking to posts is helpful.

There was no evidence that OS was bussing Chaco, and he said:

Saying it was a bus because OS was "sure", there are only two legitimate explanations for that play.

1. He was trying to protect chaco by telling OS to back off.

2. He was trying to implicate both of them.

Another thing could simply be inexperience or bad play, which cannot be ruled out. Either of those are attributed to him, and I could potentially see why he might think that OS certainly has a way of making himself seem like he's 100% sure of an outcome.

And anyway, isn't the point of a bus not to leave evidence that it's a bus?

Considering the situation, number 2 is more likely because he did it not as a reaction to OS's attack, but as a reaction to my pressure. An attempt to distract from suspicion by targeting somebody more suspicious.

It's hard for me to respond to this a lot of this since I'm not him, and I don't really have any idea why he'd do any of this.

But in his shoes, I could potentially see why he'd think this. I mean it's just a suspicion, everyone has them. I don't see why his makes him scummy while yours or anyone else's is fine. Although I don't like his lack of evidence.

I never said he should've said he wanted to protect chaco, what he actually seemed to be trying to say was, "I think this is a bus" but he gave no real reasoning.

Ah, I misunderstood you. I'll say it again: I don't know why he thought what he did.

Occassionally by bad scum, but smart scum wants to NK the less scummy players generally. There are exceptions obviously, but it's much easier to create a mislynch on a player that most people think is scum then on an obvious pro-town player.

This is just speculation, and Mafia could just kill someone to frame another player, there's no way of knowing until the game ends.

Because he was playing your role PM, his scummyness is your scummyness. Sorry you got stuck with a bad player as the previous person to hold your spot, but... actually no I'm not, makes my win easier. But seriously, like it or not, when you're scum, the game is about hiding that fact. When the previous player lets the cat out of the bag, you're known scum, nothing you can do.

So you're basically admitting that you're not going to give me a chance at all? How is that a town mentality?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Sorry that I missed that post, but if you recall I replaced into the game, it's difficult for me to remember everything that has been said. Linking to posts is helpful.

I did, in the post you just quoted and the initial repost to the case contained it.

Another thing could simply be inexperience or bad play, which cannot be ruled out. Either of those are attributed to him, and I could potentially see why he might think that OS certainly has a way of making himself seem like he's 100% sure of an outcome.

You could say anything is a result of simple inexperience or a bad play, but summoner went about it a particular way that makes it very unlikely he's noob town. His activity pattern was definitely chosen, the attempt to reframe as a bus was definitely conscious, his attempts to release pressure was conscious.


All were scum decisions, not town. Ultimately, his error was in making them obvious.

And anyway, isn't the point of a bus not to leave evidence that it's a bus?

Of course, that's why you have to depend on scum making a mistake during the bus, but if you're gonna suggest a bus, you better have picked up on one of those mistakes.

It's hard for me to respond to this a lot of this since I'm not him, and I don't really have any idea why he'd do any of this.

But in his shoes, I could potentially see why he'd think this. I mean it's just a suspicion, everyone has them. I don't see why his makes him scummy while yours or anyone else's is fine. Although I don't like his lack of evidence.

It wasn't so much his suspicions, it's the context surrounding them, how his pressure choices were the obvious easy targets, without adding anything new to their cases, how he breadcrumbed a bus without actually saying he suspected it, how it took heavy pressure for him to actually come out with a case.


This is staple scum play, he just did it badly, so why are his mistakes all scumslips?


Quite frankly, "he was a bad player" is a far to convenient excuse and can be used to justify anything. Heck, TMNT OS won by pretending to be a bad player. Scumslips are still scumslips.

This is just speculation, and Mafia could just kill someone to frame another player, there's no way of knowing until the game ends.

No, this is optimal scumplay, the main consideration beyond that is avoiding the doc-protect.

Obviously the game makes certain decisions more rewarding at different times (why do you think I did that NK analysis in the first place?) but this is the basic bread and butter of NKs.

So you're basically admitting that you're not going to give me a chance at all? How is that a town mentality?

No, I'm saying your job is to convince me that summoner did not let the cat out of the bag and that there was no cat to let out.

You haven't done a very good job by the way.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

You could say anything is a result of simple inexperience or a bad play, but summoner went about it a particular way that makes it very unlikely he's noob town. His activity pattern was definitely chosen, the attempt to reframe as a bus was definitely conscious, his attempts to release pressure was conscious.

How are you so sure of this? I've played in a fair share of games. Bad town players often make more scumslips than scum. I'm sure you've seen the same thing.

Of course, that's why you have to depend on scum making a mistake during the bus, but if you're gonna suggest a bus, you better have picked up on one of those mistakes.

more stuff

I really don't know why you're putting a lot of this on me. I'm not him, I have no idea what was going through his mind when he made his post regarding this. I can't argue for him if I don't agree with him.

Maybe if you actually discussed something regarding what I think currently as opposed to Summoner's bad play, it'd be a lot easier to respond to, and maybe you would actually listen to me. As of now it just seems like we're talking in circles about what Summoner did, and I can't say anything or do anything about his bad play. The only thing you have on me is Summoner's play.

 

[Kirbyoshi]

Ok Vrael, who's scum?

 

[Chaco]

Replacements do not get clean slates, Vrael.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I'm not asking for a clean slate, I'm asking if you guys could, you know, discuss things that I can actually answer. I can't do anything about the bad play of my predecessor now, so what's the point in talking to me about it?

I really don't know who scum is. I haven't really gotten a huge read on anyone. I really don't like Xonar's playstyle, but he could just be playing bad town. I don't really know.

 

[McCloud]

In b4 going out to London for the day, but

1) you have to answer
2) you can't "don't really have a read" at this point. it's 14 pages in. what sticks out to you, what doesn't, etc.

kirby you are scummy cause you pull a lot of the same moves that xonar does, aka being evasive.

have fun guys, LONDON IS AMAAAZING

 

[Kirbyoshi]

If you say I'm being evasive, then ask me a straight question. I promise you'll get a straight answer. However, I can't promise it'll be the straight answer you'll want to hear.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

1) you have to answer
2) you can't "don't really have a read" at this point. it's 14 pages in. what sticks out to you, what doesn't, etc.

At the beginning of the day I didn't really like Kirbyoshi, but I liked most of his answers when he was pressured. Now, like I said, I don't like Xonar's play. He's really not contributing anything at all to the game. I don't like Mac's recent inactivity either. He said "i'll come back either today or the day after," but this was on the 6th and he's been nowhere to be found since then. I find this odd because before today (in game), Mac was one of the most active people in the game. He's been on SWF, so I don't really know what to make of it.

I have to answer questions that I have no knowledge of? I have no idea why Summoner did a lot of the things that he did, how am I supposed to answer questions about that?