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that's mew2king lol... i think it's a little different. how many people can play like him? even kdj and cactuar, who would definitely **** me, cannot play like that.
sometimes, an air of confidence before going into a match that you will clearly have a disadvantage in... goes a long way
so yes, i probably do have it set in my mind that ic's matchups are better than they actually are. i wouldn't have it any other way.
i'm 1-1 vs kdj's marth in friendlies, both on yoshi's story (are we still doing the recognizer thing?), til phil came and kicked me off
as revenge, I **** phil's marth every time we play in tournament
I've only beaten m2k once, and I used sheik vs marth lol (that matchup is so one-sided it's stupid), and I'm moderately certain I've never beaten cactuar
Anyways, the biggest problem at the end of the day isn't (character) > IC, it's (stage) > IC
you guys are judging the ICs matchup off of ****ty players who don't even think when they play, so they obviously don't know what they're doing.
i can give you the blueprint on how to **** ICs with most of the good characters =/
All you have to do is not get grabbed by the ICs. Yes, that's playing somewhat perfectly; no, it still isn't hard to do. All you have to do is concentrate. How hard is it to space and know what moves you can or cannot do to not get grabbed? Ask Fly Amanita, he is NOT grabbing me more than a small handful of times a match, and you can mash on the buttons to break out of it rapidly too.
The reason why most people suck v ICs is because most people don't think. ICs have a handful of very gay bread and butter things that work exceptionally well, but once you learn how to X them out and/or limit them, they have NOTHING. It's just an extremely limited character as long as you make taking out Nana a priority. As soon as they are broken up, Nana should be dead. That simple. If you can't do this, you need to get better.
Azen ***** Chu w/ Falcon just by spamming spaced knees. Like seriously, it's ridiculous. That's all he did. Toss in some stomps and raptor boosts when apropos, and the game is over. I don't care what Azn lep says, there are ZERO good Falcons in SoCal except for Romeo, who would **** Lep's ****
Fox ***** ICs easily just by drill shine, nana is separated, kill her very quickly. Want to see it done? Go watch Colbol v Chu; Colbol would've won the set if he didn't CP FD two times (WTF?!). Don't underestimate Popo and play super super gay and you really can't be touched. Laser camp, spam bair, and it's so easy for Fox to kill that it plays itself.
Falco destroys ICs because he locks down their movement with lasers and has no problem getting 60%+ with Nana easily destroyed via just ONE combo. There are only a certain number of tricks ICs has to get around the matchup, but they're gimmicky -- we're talking ish like WD out of shield to utilt. I mean, come on. We're talking high-risk, high-reward things that can be almost nulled with experience. The only reason Falco has trouble with this is because he's getting grabbed, and to that I say get some tech skill or stop playing Falco, because your Falco obviously sucks if you keep getting shield grabbed. (This goes for any character in the game -- seriously, if you're getting shield grabbed regularly, YOU ARE NOT GOOD AT THIS GAME.)
Peach destroys ICs, I have no idea what you're talking about chok. Like saying that alone kind of puts everything else you say in dubious standing; Wobbles went like four or five major tournaments in a row only losing to Peaches.
I do think Marth has tough time vs ICs, but I'm only saying that on my own experience v them, and I don't think it's particularly valid because I know I'm not playing the matchup properly. The main thing though is it's just so god**** hard for Marth to kill at consistent, early percentages, while it's super easy for the ICs. But if you play the matchup right I'm sure it's 60/40 for Marth, if not more.
PS: PockyD, Marth v Sheik isn't insanely one-sided in absolute terms. It's just the difficulty curve to play the matchup properly is much, much higher for Marth than Sheik, but once you actually do it properly, it's 60/40 for Sheik, maaaaaaybe 65/35.
And go watch Esam v Chu dat and tell me Samus isn't a ***** for ICs.
yes but we're talking in the context of the game super smash bros melee. when most matchups are by default 60/40 due to imbalance in the game, you can't call it a one-sided matchup if the majority is (for argument's sake) 70/30.
All you have to do is not get grabbed by the ICs. Yes, that's playing somewhat perfectly; no, it still isn't hard to do. All you have to do is concentrate. How hard is it to space and know what moves you can or cannot do to not get grabbed? Ask Fly Amanita, he is NOT grabbing me more than a small handful of times a match, and you can mash on the buttons to break out of it rapidly too.
I don't think you quite fully understand the entire IC's game. It's not all grabs, you know. (Even if you do know this, you're certainly making it sound like they're an entirely grab-based character.) I don't know, that might just be me. My IC's game was actually based off of counter strategies that work against people trying not to get grabbed. A lot of ice blocks, aerials, tilts, wavesmashes, and jab setups... all of which work when someone is really trying not to get grabbed. All the stuff you said about it being very easy to kill Nana and **** the IC's by limiting them... They really do have other things to do to prevent getting locked down. I wouldn't downplay their maneuverability like that. They have a LOT of options. Is it the people playing stupidly that they always get grabbed? Or is it the IC's playing smart enough to work them in? Your judgment is so biased.
Azen ***** Chu w/ Falcon just by spamming spaced knees. Like seriously, it's ridiculous. That's all he did. Toss in some stomps and raptor boosts when apropos, and the game is over. I don't care what Azn lep says, there are ZERO good Falcons in SoCal except for Romeo, who would **** Lep's ****
You don't care what he says? When he has beaten every Falcon in existence but Darkrain? That Azen vs Chu match was years ago, dude. Lep has beaten SS, Isai, G-reg, Azen, you name it. You know why? Because the Falcon matchup is easy due to one thing: inescapable reverse chain grabs. If he gets grabbed once, he's dead, and that's not even using wobbling. Also, we can say "don't get grabbed" all day, but that's not really an option for Falcon. He's fast, but I don't think he can be played to so much perfection that he'd be ungrabbable. Trust me I've played SS enough times to know that Falcon is beatable.
What can Falcon do to a roll-desynched blizzard? Nothing, he has no approach, he can't even come from the top because he's open for a uair. Sure, Falcon has the ability to **** nana, then **** popo right after. IMO, that's harder to do than grabbing Falcon with IC's. There are so many freaking ways to grab him: jab setup, beating his aerials with utilt/uair, hell, even DASH ATTACK is a freaking good move to use against Falcon. Also, dgeguarding Falcon is ****, he has no chance to get back on.
Fox ***** ICs easily just by drill shine, nana is separated, kill her very quickly. Want to see it done? Go watch Colbol v Chu; Colbol would've won the set if he didn't CP FD two times (WTF?!). Don't underestimate Popo and play super super gay and you really can't be touched. Laser camp, spam bair, and it's so easy for Fox to kill that it plays itself.
Yeah, give me some johns where Fox makes mistakes. When was the last time you saw a Fox play perfect enough to beat Chu? No one can do that sh*t. That's the main thing that IC's have against him. NO ONE can play perfect enough. The match is even because of any Fox player's capacity to make mistakes. When I play against a Fox that players perfect enough to beat me, maybe I'll change my mind.
Falco destroys ICs because he locks down their movement with lasers and has no problem getting 60%+ with Nana easily destroyed via just ONE combo. There are only a certain number of tricks ICs has to get around the matchup, but they're gimmicky -- we're talking ish like WD out of shield to utilt. I mean, come on. We're talking high-risk, high-reward things that can be almost nulled with experience. The only reason Falco has trouble with this is because he's getting grabbed, and to that I say get some tech skill or stop playing Falco, because your Falco obviously sucks if you keep getting shield grabbed. (This goes for any character in the game -- seriously, if you're getting shield grabbed regularly, YOU ARE NOT GOOD AT THIS GAME.)
Yes, Falcos know how to laser spam and time their aerials so that they don't get shield grabbed. But you know what? Those ways to knock Falco out of his aggression are not just gimmicks. And they're not all high-risk either. I can just run up to Falco and do a double blizzard while he's lasering and he can't do anything. If he shines me, I can jump out and uair him whenever he jumps out and goes for something. Falco probably has the most difficult pressure game against IC's to deal with, but once again Falco isn't a perfect enough character to pull it off. He's also grabbable. Quit saying that people who get grabbed aren't good at this game. I watched DaShizWiz vs Chu plenty of times to know that Falco can be grabbed no matter how good he is because IC's have ways to do it. And Chu's style is so simple, he doesn't even use all the ways to beat Falco's aggression (that's cuz Chu is good enough to not need anything new to win.)
Peach destroys ICs, I have no idea what you're talking about chok. Like saying that alone kind of puts everything else you say in dubious standing; Wobbles went like four or five major tournaments in a row only losing to Peaches.
When did I ever say Peach doesn't destroy IC's? Oh, haha, I put "slightly" in my matchup description. Whatever, maybe when I lose to more peaches I'll change my mind. It's just me, P. My bad.
I do think Marth has tough time vs ICs, but I'm only saying that on my own experience v them, and I don't think it's particularly valid because I know I'm not playing the matchup properly. The main thing though is it's just so god**** hard for Marth to kill at consistent, early percentages, while it's super easy for the ICs. But if you play the matchup right I'm sure it's 60/40 for Marth, if not more.
Fortunately, all the M2K-esque Marths out there are easier to deal with than Ken-like ones. I mean, Ken played the IC matchup right. Nair and dtilt spamming. I've never played against that either. So maybe you're right. If a Marth did manage to play right against IC's, then it would be in Marth's favor. For IC's, the matchup is really quite dependent on random wavesmashes and setup combos. Marth needs some freaking beautiful combos to be able to **** nana before she can be saved, and really good spacing with nair, dtilt, jab to control this matchup. I bet he can... Fortunately, Marth players don't play like that anymore loool.
And go watch Esam v Chu dat and tell me Samus isn't a ***** for ICs.
I don't understand referencing to IC matchups where ChuDat is the winner.
Kinda like HMW, this is just my Modesto-player's useless obligation to apologize. Yo P, I have nothing against you LOL I'm just posting my opinions, my badddzzz.
Oh, of course I don't. Every time I play Fly I am continually surprised (and pissed off) with the ICs. I really hate the character, which is why I had to make sure I know how to **** it.
It's not all grabs, you know. (Even if you do know this, you're certainly making it sound like they're an entirely grab-based character.)
Grabs are by far the single most important part of Melee. Every upper tier or higher character (the worst would be Falco, even though his grab game is sick underrated) can do extremely nasty things out of a grab to almost any character as a guarantee. So in general I'm always going to super emphasize them.
But the ICs, unlike someone like Sheik, who would still be a top tier character even with, say, a grab game on Falco or Peach's level, do not have the gay bread and butter things to rely on outside of grabs.
Is it the people playing stupidly that they always get grabbed?
Yes, and I really think is inarguable. Getting grabbed by the ICs is a HUGE mistake. It's a LOT harder for the ICs to get consistent grabs than any of the other top tier characters; that's why they're not that good. People don't adjust their game vs the ICs. It's much easier to play it super safe and never get grabbed, and win based on the other advantages in the matchup rather than ever taking any chance to get grabbed, since that grab is the only consistent way ICs can get kills. And don't tell me you can't not get grabbed with every single character vs the ICs; all you have to do is spam moves. With Sheik, spam fair. With Fox, spam shine. With Falco, spam pillar. With Falcon, spam knee. With Marth, (??? that's why Fly ***** my Marth. But dtilt and sword dance work well). With Peach, spam downsmash. With Jigglypuff, spam rest.
Spam them properly and you win. It's not much more complicated than that.
The most important thing in this game is getting a kill. Sounds stupidly obvious, but think about it. When do you start getting ***** in a match? The time after someone dies and has their two seconds of invincibility. Chances are one character will be within killing range, and one will be fresh; if the dude in killing range manages not to get killed until he can get the opponent 50% or higher, he has a significant leg up in the match. Good characters are therefore good if they have reliable ways to get those extremely essential kills. ICs have that because their dsmash and fsmash kill at such early percentages regardless of DI, but that's ALL they have, and since they're predictable and have to stay together, you can just play EXTREMELY safe in situations like that and otherwise **** the **** out of them.
If you're coming at me with tilts and aerials and basically your only surefire way of killing me is a wd into a jab into a smash (or grab), you're going to have trouble if I play as cautiously as I should be. You have to play SUPER SUPER safe vs the ICs, because it's so easy to make up for it in other ways.
You don't care what he says? When he has beaten every Falcon in existence but Darkrain? That Azen vs Chu match was years ago, dude. Lep has beaten SS, Isai, G-reg, Azen, you name it.
When has he beat them in tournament? I've checked tournament results for the past year and a half pretty consistently, and that doesn't ring a bell at all. I hope you're not talking about one time in a set, which obviously doesn't count.
Azen ***** Chu pretty consistently, so it really doesn't matter when it was because Chu's never solved Azen. Plus if you still can't stop it today, so what? Melee was in its tactical prime a year ago, and the vast majority of things that were effective then are effective now. What can ICs do against spaced knees? Nothing! There is no solution! Even freaking M2K went Falcon in tourny on Chu.
Azn lep may know the Falcon matchup extremely well -- I'm sure he does -- but just because he's beating a litany of Falcons (just assuming what you say is true) still doesn't prove anything in and of itself. The majority of it is just Lep playing the matchup better -- that's what makes the ICs viable. They have a very cheap punish game you can master, so any mistakes are punished worse than any other character. And those mistakes happen often for IC mains, because players are used to being able to be sloppy and only getting a grab combo that gives them 50-60% instead of a total end of stock. So bad habits develop, and you can't magically take them away the first time you play a good ICs.
But once you stop playing so recklessly and pick apart the ICs' weak spots, it's done. The blueprint is there for every character. I guarantee if Isai / G-Reg / etc. played just as gay as Azen did in the matchup, they would dominate any ICs.
As an example to show you my point: a good Falcon main may come in with a nair approach v every other character, and it works 90% of the time and the other 10% of the time you get grabbed. Vs those characters, it's still beneficial to keep nairing because the risk (grab combo, 50-60%) is worth the reward (Falcon's bread and butter -- tech chasing and knees -- follow from nairs). But vs the ICs you CANNOT do that; you would be better off totally abandoning the nair because that 10% of grab equals 100% of death, and over the course of four stocks it's just a really bad gamble. But it's hard for humans to suddenly drop that habit, or maybe they may not even WANT to. See what I'm saying?
But play simple and gay and have patience, and the ICs can't touch you.
Also, we can say "don't get grabbed" all day, but that's not really an option for Falcon. He's fast, but I don't think he can be played to so much perfection that he'd be ungrabbable. Trust me I've played SS enough times to know that Falcon is beatable.
Yes it is. DO NOT GET GRABBED. It's that ****ing simple. Once you realize there is no other option, you stop making johns and you figure out how to not get grabbed. Don't act like it can't be done, because a lot of pros do it; the thing is, it doesn't even take a pro's skill set to successfully do it. It's one word: SPACING. LEARN HOW TO SPACE. Do not throw out an attack if it 100% can't be responded to.
People are so used to spamming or being reckless in certain situations and not having their stock ended. Once you get your stock consistently ended, well, you learn to stop doing that ****. You have to play as gay as the ICs to beat the ICs. If you're getting grabbed, you're not playing gay enough. If that means you have to run around for the entire eight minutes and only use three moves -- throw, bair and knee -- then that's what you do! You will not get grabbed off of them if done properly, and one knee breaks up the ICs and then you can go finish the combo or kill Nana.
What can Falcon do to a roll-desynched blizzard? Nothing, he has no approach, he can't even come from the top because he's open for a uair. Sure, Falcon has the ability to **** nana, then **** popo right after. IMO, that's harder to do than grabbing Falcon with IC's. There are so many freaking ways to grab him: jab setup, beating his aerials with utilt/uair, hell, even DASH ATTACK is a freaking good move to use against Falcon. Also, dgeguarding Falcon is ****, he has no chance to get back on.
Falcon has a better approach v ICs than ICs does v Falcon... Falcon does NOT have to approach, dude, EVER. He should NEVER be approaching. All you have do is run around, dash dance camp, use your speed, spam spaced knees. Even if you shield there's a good shot it hits Nana, and it's all over from there. Wash hands, repeat.
Both gay each other quite well, it's just a matter of who has more openings to start being gay. Falcon does because of his superior mobility and lagless attacks.
Yeah, give me some johns where Fox makes mistakes. When was the last time you saw a Fox play perfect enough to beat Chu? No one can do that sh*t. That's the main thing that IC's have against him. NO ONE can play perfect enough. The match is even because of any Fox player's capacity to make mistakes. When I play against a Fox that players perfect enough to beat me, maybe I'll change my mind.
Wrong. They're playing too reckless. Read above. It's not worth it to do anything even moderately reckless vs the ICs. I re-watched the Colbol v Chu dat set earlier today, and it's so obvious Fox destroys ICs. The only reason he lost was because of minor little things where, if he did a safer but less harmful move in a spot where he tried something with more risk and reward, he would've won easily. You just don't do anything where you might have a chance of getting punished.
For example, I think it was Match 3 (Match 1 or Match 3, it was on FD), Chu Dat was on the ledge and was attempting to get back to the stage, and Colbol usmashed trying to get the kill rather than a safer bair, where even if the bair does hit his shield, he can always shine after it and run away. But usmashing there means if it hits Chu's shield, WD out of shield to whatever **** the ICs wants to deliver. It's the little things like that -- that's the ONLY reason IC ever overcomes the matchups, but you can't tell me those little things aren't EASILY correctable if you know what you're looking for.
Of course ICs has a lot of stuff to combat a really aggressive Falco. That's because the Falco becomes predictable -- for example, the only way the uairs work to disrupt the pillars is if Falco becomes predictable with his jumps -- predictable in instances where he SHOULD know ICs can respond. In other words, he's not playing safe enough. It's very vital to know when to run the **** away from ICs. You ALWAYS have a better approach game than ICs, so if it looks even slightly risky, I run away and start it over from scratch because I know I have the upper hand there.
Fortunately, all the M2K-esque Marths out there are easier to deal with than Ken-like ones.
Pretty sure that's exactly why I get ***** by ICs -- I try to play like M2K. I don't spam nair enough.
I like the way KDJ plays it, though -- grab to fthrow at low percentages leads to fsmashes. Getting the first 50% on the ICs as Marth is what is so difficult, and that helps a lot.
I don't understand referencing to IC matchups where ChuDat is the winner.
Come on now, this is just ********. Chu Dat is one of the five best smashers in the world, and has been for what, four years? It demonstrates the gap in character advantage when supremely lesser players can approach a great player -- it's for no other reason than the character he plays. PC Chris, M2K, etc. will 2-3 stock the Esams of the world.
Kinda like HMW, this is just my Modesto-player's useless obligation to apologize. Yo P, I have nothing against you LOL I'm just posting my opinions, my badddzzz.[/QUOTE]
ICs vs fox = SUUUUPER GAY
personally I don't have a lot of experience in that matchup because I suck and 12's ice climbers suck too, but it seems like as long as you play really gay and shine nana off you can't really lose.
IMO the best sets are PC vs chu--chu's ICs seem like the main reason PC started playing fox. I don't remember what tournament it was from, but in all the MLGs PC would just drill, shine nana, then edgehog, and chu couldn't do anything. From there, PC simply outplayed him because he had the better character.
ic vs fox = even
ic vs falco= ic(falcos, pick FoD) (ic's, ice block that hoe, it works trust me)
ic vs doc= ic
ic vs marth=ic(marth if they no wut theyre doing)
ic vs sheik=ic
ic vs falcon=ic(infinite grabs, otherwise falcon)
one grab its over that, DONT GET GRABBED stuff only works for so long, but it depends really the ic's who spam that infinte grab will otherwise i do say falcon, srry P im mean
ic vs yoshi=yoshi(uh huh...yep)
IC's in my opinion are ok, u jus gotta get use to the fact that the are 2 of them, so u have to limit ur self, and space urself well(wut p said) cuz they have decent range(i think) all those characters up there can beat IC's if u space urself, cuz of nana she's a beast
also grabbing ic's helps(as odd as it sounds), split one up beat the $hit out of the other they dont expect to get grabbed so u can combo them after a throw or wutever, the more they split up the easier cuz either
1. theyll try to save nana
2. they let that ***** die
now ic's are hella accustomed fight peach *cough*Andre,*cough* Pocky
i say of all ppl Luigi is a good counter
ic's cant grab combo him
yea me and choknater played alot so i guess im fond a little bit on fight ic's but i dunno
um yea i havent posted anything like this in a while
Ic down throw to reverse iceblock can catch a luigi in a grab combo. Although it's still a hard match up due to the fact that when fighting everyone else you can wave dash away and come in with an attack, but luigi can catch you with his wavedash...
Luigi kills ice climbers , in more ways than that one
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lol yea. i joined when i met friends in high school who played smash 64, and i convinced them that melee was a better game! one of them taught me wavedashing and... i found out about this site after we had an argument about whether pros play on lightning mode lol
