List of things to buff Mewtwo

[Jolt_91]

Don't know if it was already suggested, but I'd really like a greater grabbing range. Only makes sense, since he grabs with his mind.

 

[godogod]

I like all the different ideas for buffs in this thread, however i think that only these are what we could realistically get at this point.

Utilt - Make hitbox match tail animation.
Bair - Make hitbox match tail animation.
Uair - Make hitbox match tail animation.
Fsmash - extend the hitbox so it doesn't whiff at close range.
Fair - Also fix to not miss at close range.
Grab - Fix hitbox so it doesn't whiff as easily.

Weight - Mewtwo should be around midweight, or at least around his Melee weight.

Maybe also fix Dthrow so that it gives Mewtwo frame advantage and is a combo throw.

Agreed. Also increasing damage for some moves by 1-2% and knockback, including his throws.

If we can get all of that and at least his melee weight, I'd be happy.

 

[Deleted member]

What he needs is more speed... and hitbox fixes...

Also, we need 100% Up-Throw back. For those who call it OP, it's called DI.

 

[meleebrawler]

Don't know if it was already suggested, but I'd really like a greater grabbing range. Only makes sense, since he grabs with his mind.

Eh so do Ness and Lucas.

 

[Furret24]

What he needs is more speed... and hitbox fixes...

Also, we need 100% Up-Throw back. For those who call it OP, it's called DI.

Actually, Mewtwo's is pretty resistant to DI. That's why it kills earlier than Charizard's uthrow with DI, despite killing later without it.

 

[Karsticles]

When people try to argue Mewtwo needs to be completely redesigned as a character, it makes the thread look a bit ridiculous. At most, it makes sense to continue to lobby Sakurai for custom moves.

 

[Metalex]

When people try to argue Mewtwo needs to be completely redesigned as a character, it makes the thread look a bit ridiculous. At most, it makes sense to continue to lobby Sakurai for custom moves.

Don't you agree that it makes sense to at least want a change for Bair, Utilt and Uair though? They just feel buggy at this point since the hitboxes doesn't match the animations of the moves very well at all

 

[AlmostDoug]

Don't you agree that it makes sense to at least want a change for Bair, Utilt and Uair though? They just feel buggy at this point since the hitboxes doesn't match the animations of the moves very well at all

That feels like less of a change than customs being added, so I'd say that's lower than his "at most" comment.
But that's just part of my thoughts on what's doable, more or less.

 

[meleebrawler]

Don't you agree that it makes sense to at least want a change for Bair, Utilt and Uair though? They just feel buggy at this point since the hitboxes doesn't match the animations of the moves very well at all

I say this time and time again, but if bair's startup perfectly matched the animation it'd almost make Sheik's fair look tame.
Utilt could use a lot more tuning up to make it more than just a generally weaker anti-air than usmash than just it's hitbox but it would be nice to have a DK/Link style utilt.

What I don't get is why people still make a fuss about uair not hitting 360 degrees like nairs usually do. The hitbox above, the area an uair should hit, is quite wide. Besides, the trails under or beside Mewtwo seem miniscule and hardly useful for spacing.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually, Mewtwo's is pretty resistant to DI. That's why it kills earlier than Charizard's uthrow with DI, despite killing later without it.

That's not what I meant. I mean that if Mewtwo gets his old Up-Throw back and people find it to be overpowered, all they need to do is DI.
-------------
Also, I think that Mewtwo's problems would be fixed if they just gave him his Melee Moveset Back, with his Smash 4 F-Throw, Confusion, Disable, and a Teleport which could be attacked out of (I only say the teleport part because the ending animation almost looks like it was built to be cancelled out of.

The worst mistake they made when designing Mewtwo was when they tried to "generalize" him. They tried to make him seem more like a Smash 4 character, rather than a buffed version of his old self.

 

[Metalex]

I say this time and time again, but if bair's startup perfectly matched the animation it'd almost make Sheik's fair look tame.
Utilt could use a lot more tuning up to make it more than just a generally weaker anti-air than usmash than just it's hitbox but it would be nice to have a DK/Link style utilt.

What I don't get is why people still make a fuss about uair not hitting 360 degrees like nairs usually do. The hitbox above, the area an uair should hit, is quite wide. Besides, the trails under or beside Mewtwo seem miniscule and hardly useful for spacing.

I don't really see how Bair could be Sheik Fair levels of overpowered by such a little change since it is quite a laggy attack, but maybe your right that it could be abused in that case.

The issue most people have with Bair is that it sometimes misses even if the opponent is standing inside the tail animation and completely misses short opponents if you shorthop it. Same with Utilt and Uair if the opponent is in the area behind Mewtwo and it makes these moves feel unsafe to use in alot of situations.

This video demonstrates the spots quite well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2_AIdsqYQw

Anyway, maybe there is some balance reason for the weird hitbox placings but they just seem like design flaws to me.

 

[MagiusNecros]

When people try to argue Mewtwo needs to be completely redesigned as a character, it makes the thread look a bit ridiculous. At most, it makes sense to continue to lobby Sakurai for custom moves.

Still bummed about this man. For all the DLC characters really.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't really see how Bair could be Sheik Fair levels of overpowered by such a little change since it is quite a laggy attack, but maybe your right that it could be abused in that case.

The issue most people have with Bair is that it sometimes misses even if the opponent is standing inside the tail animation and completely misses short opponents if you shorthop it. Same with Utilt and Uair if the opponent is in the area behind Mewtwo and it makes these moves feel unsafe to use in alot of situations.

This video demonstrates the spots quite well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2_AIdsqYQw

Anyway, maybe there is some balance reason for the weird hitbox placings but they just seem like design flaws to me.

The answer is simple: you aren't supposed to space out ground opponents with bair. That's ftilt/dtilt/dsmash's job.
What bair does do well is challenging aerial approaches. The move is much more likely to hit when the opponent is above and to the side of Mewtwo, making it a good anti-air and scary to go up against when in disadvantage (it almost hits directly above Mewtwo as well). It also makes for nasty stage spikes.

The wide range of uair lets you space it in such a way that you can be safe even if you whiff. I certainly rarely get punished for it, in fact I think it's one of Mewtwo's safest juggling tools because of this.

I am with you on utilt though, if only to give the move more utility.

 

[Karsticles]

Still bummed about this man. For all the DLC characters really.

Yeah, it's extremely lame.

 

[Browny]

Let me explain why bair looks off to people, and why it would make sheiks fair look tame.

When other characters do a back air and they are using their arms or legs, those limbs are just hanging freely downwards. When doing a bair they all do a short wind-up of a few frames before pushing it out to make the attack.

With mewtwos tail though, it is always floating out behind him. For him to do a wind up, he would somehow have to curl it backwards, wind up, and then hit. Its not possible for him to curl it back or wind up, so instead the entire wind-up animation and all the frames it takes, are instead taken up by the tail beginning its sweep.

If you look at mewtwos bair frame by frame, for a frame 13 attack he actually starts sweeping his tail out on like, frame 4. If the hitbox matched the animation it would be an insanely fast, powerful, long ranged attack. He literally can not have the usual wind-up frames of attacks because of how his tail is already extended before the attack hits.

When you look at it that way, his bair makes perfect sense. Yes it still whiffs on a short-hop but if the attack matched the animation, it would be stupidly fast and not really make much sense that you are going to take such heavy knockback from being hit by a limb that was already extended before the thrust.

 

[godogod]

Yeah, it's extremely lame.

Well, I'd say our best bet of getting it is in the next month holiday patch. That patch will be big..

Random thought: How the hell did Mewtwo's down throw combo into up smash in his trailer? Did down throw just end sooner in that build of the game?

Also, has any character gotten a Nerf, only to have their need undone/buffed in a later update? I was just thinking about up smash's hitbox size..

 

[Deleted member]

It didn't combo, Sakurai simply forgot the press the jump button...

 

[godogod]

I din't know what you're talking about.

Or maybe it was more so the slide..that looked like a dacus.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Random thought: How the hell did Mewtwo's down throw combo into up smash in his trailer? Did down throw just end sooner in that build of the game?

There's this thing called marketing.

And I don't think customs are happening.

 

[Furret24]

Well, I'd say our best bet of getting it is in the next month holiday patch. That patch will be big..

Random thought: How the hell did Mewtwo's down throw combo into up smash in his trailer? Did down throw just end sooner in that build of the game?

Also, has any character gotten a Nerf, only to have their need undone/buffed in a later update? I was just thinking about up smash's hitbox size..

Probably. I recall someone comparing some scenes of Samus in a pre-release Smash trailer to her now. From what he found, her missles had more endlag in the final release of the game than pre-release.

It seems that at some point of development, Mewtwo's dthrow was a combo throw. I'm not sure why they removed it's combo ability.

 

[meleebrawler]

Probably. I recall someone comparing some scenes of Samus in a pre-release Smash trailer to her now. From what he found, her missles had more endlag in the final release of the game than pre-release.

It seems that at some point of development, Mewtwo's dthrow was a combo throw. I'm not sure why they removed it's combo ability.

We have no proof that it was ever a true combo. This isn't like pre-release where you could play around with early build characters and test things out.

How many of us saw Villager in the Rosalina trailer and thought "lol he'll be so easy to gimp if you pop his balloons!". Heh... look how that worked out.

 

[Furret24]

We have no proof that it was ever a true combo. This isn't like pre-release where you could play around with early build characters and test things out.

How many of us saw Villager in the Rosalina trailer and thought "lol he'll be so easy to gimp if you pop his balloons!". Heh... look how that worked out.

I'm just making guesses here (it's entirely possible the opponent just wasn't using DI).

For the record, I never saw Rosaluma's trailer.

 

[godogod]

There's this thing called marketing.

And I don't think customs are happening.

More like false advetising. e_e

 

[Xzsmmc]

It seems that at some point of development, Mewtwo's dthrow was a combo throw. I'm not sure why they removed it's combo ability.

Because his final smash is decent. That seems to be the balance philosophy behind him, sine his blurb on the site only mentions that as a selling point.

 

[meleebrawler]

Because his final smash is decent. That seems to be the balance philosophy behind him, sine his blurb on the site only mentions that as a selling point.

So you're saying they knew Meta Knight was broken as s*** in Brawl and gave him a mediocre Final Smash to compensate?

Also what is the site in question?

 

[Xzsmmc]

So you're saying they knew Meta Knight was broken as s*** in Brawl and gave him a mediocre Final Smash to compensate?

Also what is the site in question?

Would it surprise you?

Official Smash Bros. site under the DLC section.

 

[Metalex]

Would it surprise you?

Official Smash Bros. site under the DLC section.

Yeah i think i read long ago in an interview that Sakurai balanced the characters in Brawl with Final Smashes in mind. I think that's not the case with Smash 4, but if it is i kinda wish final smashes were never a thing as that is a very unfair way to balance the game...

 

[MagiusNecros]

Final smash as balance for characters is a lame way to go.

 

[meleebrawler]

Yeah i think i read long ago in an interview that Sakurai balanced the characters in Brawl with Final Smashes in mind. I think that's not the case with Smash 4, but if it is i kinda wish final smashes were never a thing as that is a very unfair way to balance the game...

If Final Smashes were considered an important part of balance you'd think they'd be getting altered with all the patches. But no.

Really Final Smash balancing hasn't gone further than nerfing the really abusable ones (Super Sonic, Landmaster), or making them less random (Luigi and Dedede's new final smashes, PK Starstorm).

 

[Xzsmmc]

Final smash as balance for characters is a lame way to go.

So is making characters that suck in 1v1 great in free for alls and vice versa.

How lucky for us Mewtwo sucks in both.

 

[Metalex]

If Final Smashes were considered an important part of balance you'd think they'd be getting altered with all the patches. But no.

Really Final Smash balancing hasn't gone further than nerfing the really abusable ones (Super Sonic, Landmaster), or making them less random (Luigi and Dedede's new final smashes, PK Starstorm).

I meant more as in if they might have taken a characters final smash into consideration when they initially created and balanced a character for Smash 4. But yeah your right we would probably have seen changes to them if they were deemed very important but i think they have a better idea of balancing now that Namco and the team is on board and it isn't just Sakurai balancing by himself like in the Brawl Days.

 

[meleebrawler]

So is making characters that suck in 1v1 great in free for alls and vice versa.

How lucky for us Mewtwo sucks in both.

Hey, look! It's the real world where some people like to just play free-for-alls with items on! Can you believe those guys?

Really, those messages on the website are meant for the general masses, not really us. Mewtwo's blurb in particular is targeted at young Pokemon or Mewtwo fans who've played the recent Pokemon games and loved destroying things with Mega Mewtwo.
Lucas's just states the most obvious differences between him and Ness. And I'm sure casuals love getting those sweet usmash multi-kills.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I like how Lucas got buffs. And for mewtwo they were all pfffft.

 

[meleebrawler]

I like how Lucas got buffs. And for mewtwo they were all pfffft.

Our buffs are pretty on par with his. Buffing a move that was outclassed by another mainly (dtilt/jab for Lucas, dsmash/fsmash for Mewtwo).

He really didn't get that much more buffed compared to Mewtwo.

 

[Xzsmmc]

I like how Lucas got buffs. And for mewtwo they were all pfffft.

Forget Lucas, how about Roy? He was a pretty broken (in the bad way) character in Melee, and now he's the best of the Marths.

 

[meleebrawler]

Forget Lucas, how about Roy? He was a pretty broken (in the bad way) character in Melee, and now he's the best of the Marths.

Wouldn't say Melee Roy was broken, just very undertuned and as a result most things he could do Marth could do way better.

I don't know if Roy is better than Marth overall in this game, but he most certainly is not strictly better in every circumstance.

 

[godogod]

Pretty much everyone is impervious to damage(or at least knockback for Charizard), while they can easily ko enemies. I get Sakurai is pandering to the casual crowd, though I doubt he'd have final smashes to balance out weak tier characters.

However.. Going back to balancing Mewtwo.. What if Sakurai is only listening to the Japanese tiers/fans? Because from what I've heard, Japanese players put Mewtwo much higher on their tier list, then us westerners. Like they put him in Tier C.

http://smashboards.com/threads/japanese-tier-list-by-shi-g-june-15-version-1-0-7.407138/
this is from June(does not include Lucas, Roy, and Ryu)^^

Coincidentally enough the characters that received the most significant buffs since that tier list was made in June, are: Donkey Kong, Marth, Lucina, Charizard, Ike, Wii Fit Trainer, and Robin. A lot of the "d" tier lists got some decent buffs, and it gets less for almost all characters, the higher you go up.

I mean am I crazy, or what? I'm sure Sakurai primarly looks at Japanese feedback more than anywhere else.. And they could be possibly screwing Mewtwo's chances of getting any significant buffs IMO.

 

[godogod]

Wouldn't say Melee Roy was broken, just very undertuned and as a result most things he could do Marth could do way better.

I don't know if Roy is better than Marth overall in this game, but he most certainly is not strictly better in every circumstance.

It's hilarious that Roy becomes faster, heavier, stronger, AND better frame data in SSB4. Significantly boosting his viability in the game..

While Dr Mario and Mewtwo get the short end of the stick as cut melee vets:
-Dr Mario is significantly slower and his recovery is gimped when compared to his melee counterpart. Everyone knows he's worse.

-Mewtwo becomes even lighter(from 85 to 72), weaker kill throws, and has more hitbox problems. In return they gave his smashes and smash ball more knockback, as well as faster dash speed, and fixed his crap confusion and disable. The buffs sound good on paper, but they really don't balance out his nerfs. He can't combo with down throw, his grab hitbox is crap, his throws are weaker, his tilts are weaker and slower, he has wonky hitboxes, and becomes significantly lighter for no good reason at all. Some argue that he's just as bad as he was in melee or worse.. But not many think his viability was improved overall in relation to the other smash vets.

P.S. I know all throws got nerfed.. But how do we make up what is known as the strongest up throw in the game, get randomly overtaken by Charizards in a patch.

 

[MagiusNecros]

You forgot Lucario stole the whole damaging ball charge thing.

 

[Metalex]

You forgot Lucario stole the whole damaging ball charge thing.

I really wonder why they did this. It was one of the characteristics of Mewtwos Shadowball so it doesn't make sense that they would remove it..