Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

DarkDeity15

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I don't want to burst any bubbles here, but Link is terrible in teams. Just ask any of the Link mains that have used him in actual tournaments and not scrub as **** FG.
That's probably because you can't play him like you would in a 1v1, which I would assume is what they were doing. It just doesn't work that way. In fact, it's a completely different meta for Link.
That's really brutal, I'm gonna have to try that. My edge game consists often of SH dairs when they're close, and when they're far I pull a bomb, run off the ledge, toss it up and recover, so that when they are coming back 50/50 they get hit by the bomb and I can follow up with a fair or trap them in an aerial SA. Sometimes if they're under me I'll run off the ledge, fall past them, and then backflip to bair/nair and stage spike them as they try to recover.



Yeah they would have killed each other if it had been on, but with it off they were able to cover one another's unsafe power moves and dominate, and my projectiles weren't much help because they were both great at perfect shields, so one would shield a projectile while the other charged past him and punished, and the windbox on my boomerang more often than not ended up being abused by them to charge smash attacks while being dragged back to me.
Why are we even discussing FG teams then? They don't matter, especially when team attack is always on in a competitive environment. And why are you letting them abuse gale's wind boxes? Just grab them OoS or something.

I also have a couple of things for us to seriously consider discussing, as they can be very useful for Link. @ Fox Is Openly Deceptive Fox Is Openly Deceptive

#1: Slow running. I know Link doesn't have a very long skid stop animation to begin with, but it could make Dtilts, Dsmashes and non-pivot Ftilts and Fsmashes out of a run much more practical in neutral.

#2: Fast Fall break. Just watch the video.

#3: Hip Check. This could very well be amazing for Link, especially with the amount of use normal pivot Ftilts and Smash attacks already have.

#4: Ledge Denials. Just watch.
 
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FierceGaiety

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I don't want to burst any bubbles here, but Link is terrible in teams. Just ask any of the Link mains that have used him in actual tournaments and not scrub as **** FG.
You're not wrong, but I think I was pretty up front about the fact that FG is Scrubtown, capitol city of Scrubtopia, of which I am also running for President.
 

Rizen

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#1: Slow running. I know Link doesn't have a very long skid stop animation to begin with, but it could make Dtilts, Dsmashes and non-pivot Ftilts and Fsmashes out of a run much more practical in neutral.

#2: Fast Fall break. Just watch the video.

#3: Hip Check. This could very well be amazing for Link, especially with the amount of use normal pivot Ftilts and Smash attacks already have.

#4: Ledge Denials. Just watch.
1 Slow running is interesting and could be good to transition into jab. Link usually moves around with hops and has a slow running speed so it seems situational.

2 I did not know about this. Link has a significantly faster FF speed than his normal fall speed. Norm 1.6 FF 3.04.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/FallSpeed
Without realizing it this tech has helped me land Dairs. FF Break could be a useful tech for bomb pulling, arrows and aerials.

3 Link's run is slow so he won't be dashing past opponents. Link's sword attacks mostly hit in front of him but lack hitbubbles on Link's body to make it worse. I don't see much use for this tech.

4 This is pretty well know. Link doesn't have great fast attacks like Zelda's Dtilt for ledge denial but it is useful for him. I can see things like run offstage Bair> upB>grab ledge>drop and Nair. Bomb thrown down>Dair. Very situational but it could be a way to land Dtilt spikes.
 
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DarkDeity15

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1 Slow running is interesting and could be good to transition into jab. Link usually moves around with hops and has a slow running speed so it seems situational.

2 I did not know about this. Link has a significantly faster FF speed than his normal fall speed. Norm 1.6 FF 3.04.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/FallSpeed
Without realizing it this tech has helped me land Dairs. FF Break could be a useful tech for bomb pulling, arrows and aerials.

3 Link's run is slow so he won't be dashing past opponents. Link's sword attacks mostly hit in front of him but lack hitbubbles on Link's body to make it worse. I don't see much use for this tech.

4 This is pretty well know. Link doesn't have great fast attacks like Zelda's Dtilt for ledge denial but it is useful for him. I can see things like run offstage Bair> upB>grab ledge>drop and Nair. Bomb thrown down>Dair. Very situational but it could be a way to land Dtilt spikes.
Link does have a hitbox on his body with his Ftilt though. Last I remember, Ftilt could hit people behind him if they were close enough. Test it yourself.
 

Rizen

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Link does have a hitbox on his body with his Ftilt though. Last I remember, Ftilt could hit people behind him if they were close enough. Test it yourself.
Link's Ftilt hitbubble travel along his sword, which starts behind him. He does have a small body hitbubble but I still don't think hip checks will be good for Link. Also keep in mind Ftilt and Fsmash start frame 15, Mario's Ftilt starts frame 5 for reference.
 

FierceGaiety

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My new obsession is learning how to not dash everywhere so I can get the most out of my idle shield. Honestly Link's dash doesn't even seem much faster than his fastest walk speed and it's helping me by discouraging the use of the awful dash attack which has like a 25 year wind up and cool down period.
 

Linkmario00

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My new obsession is learning how to not dash everywhere so I can get the most out of my idle shield. Honestly Link's dash doesn't even seem much faster than his fastest walk speed and it's helping me by discouraging the use of the awful dash attack which has like a 25 year wind up and cool down period.
What about Foxtrotting into PP?
 

FierceGaiety

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My foxtrot game with Link isn't very good. I'm either just not feeling it or Link as a character is too slow for it, but either way I haven't been using it effectively anyway so it hasn't changed my game too much.
 

Elessar

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Foxtrot is useless with Link. He doesn't benefit in any way from it, or at least in any substantial way that would make the hassle worthwhile. Stop wasting time on it and learn perfect pivots instead.
 

DUKEL

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I learned the foxtrot with Link, but as soon as I realized that walking gets me places at about the same speed, I started walking a lot more.

Honestly I think Links should walk a lot more in general. We have so many more options out of a walk, and we have our shield.
 

Knife8193

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Well, here goes. I decided not to format it like the Greninja combo thread since so many of Links combos work differently on different characters and for simplicity. For the true combos, I'm testing these on training mode Mario and seeing if the combo meter registers them as combos (though some true combos are not registered for some reason). Most fast fallers and big characters are susceptible to most of these combos at higher percents than listed. Please note the 3 major variable that affect combo % windows such as rage (shrinks the window), stale moves (increase the window, but combos do less % than they normally do), and of course the opponent's character. These moves are tested with a no rage Link without stale moves.

Blue means the combo is a true combo at most percents and cannot be escaped by the opponent once the initial hit is landed.

Green means the combo is almost guaranteed, but can be interrupted by the opponent. Some can be true combos at certain percents, but the window is much smaller than blue combos.

Yellow denotes combos that rely on hard reads and none are guaranteed. You need to anticipate an opponent's behavior (such as airdodging, shielding, jabbing, throwing out an aerial) to make these work.

Bomb throw > almost any attack (% damage varies)

Let's get the most obvious and important one out of the way. Most Link mains should know that a bomb throw leads into lots of attacks. The explosion has a lot of hitstun and Link does not get hurt by the explosion if it hit the opponent. The bomb sends opponents at a 70 degree angle away from the side they got hit by the bomb. First of all, there are many ways to throw the bomb to initiate this combo. JCT and Bombsliding are good options when grounded. However, bomb combos also work in the air. For example, you can down throw a bomb and footstool the opponent while they're in hitstun from the bomb. You can also up throw a bomb into an upair. If you can catch someone off guard near the ledge, you can actually JCT a bomb at them and immediately follow up with a Dair spike, but this is extremely difficult to land.

It's tough to be more specific with this because of the many combo possibilities, but bomb combos are definitely something you need to learn. Although your follow ups change based on how much damage the opponent has, you should most likely be able to chain something if you threw the bomb close enough to them and you're quick enough. Although you can of course try your own bomb combos, I recommend the following:

Forward throw > Fsmash (24%) - Does the most damage out of any two attack bomb combo, but only works at low percents.

Forward throw > Ftilt (18%) - This starts to be the more reliable option once the opponent is at mid percents.


Forward throw > Fair (13%) - At some point, the bomb will still knock them high enough that Ftilt will no longer reach them. Fair one is a good option at this point, but you can also try to Uair if you notice the opponent is DIing back towards you.

Forward throw > Aerial Spin Attack (19%) - After throwing a bomb, run up to an opponent, jump and immediately Up-B. Great kill setup at higher percents.

Up throw > Up-air (20%) - Only works at low percents, throw a bomb straight up and link Uair right after the explosion.

Down throw > FF Nair (11%) - A good anti-juggle option if you happen to have a bomb in your hand or if you want to approach from above. If you have good timing, you can try to dthrow > Dair, but it is risky if the initial down throw missed.

Gale Boomerang > Fair (15% if only Fair 1 hits, 25% if both Fair 1 and Fair 2 hit)

Throw the Gale Boomerang at point blank range and immediate shorthop or fullhop and Fair. The boomerang must be thrown at almost point blank range (although not too close or it will whiff) and the strong hit (the one that does 7% and send the opponent at a more upward angle) must be landed. This works until fairly high %, on Mario it true combos until around 90%. Most of the time you will only be landing Fair 1, but at lower % you can also get Fair 2 to hit. Why even use the Gale Boomerang over the custom regular boomerang if you're not taking advantage of this combo?

Gale Boomerang > Aerial Spin Attack (9%-21% depending on how many hits from Spin Attack land)

Throw the Gale Boomerang at point blank range and immediate shorthop or fullhop and Up-B. The boomerang must be thrown at almost point blank range (although not too close or it will whiff) and the strong hit (the one that does 7% and send the opponent at a more upward angle) must be landed. This works until fairly high %, on Mario it true combos until around 100%. To be honest, Gale Boomerang > Fair is a much more reliable combo and there isn't much reason to use this because of how unreliable the hits can be sometimes. It won't really kill near its max true combo %, so its not a kill setup either, although one advantage it has over the Fair counterpart is that it sends them higher and potentially start a juggle.

Dtilt > Fair (18% if only Fair 1 hits, 30% if both Fair 1 and Fair 2 hit)

After landing a Dtilt, immediately fullhop and Fair. You have to be very quick with this, otherwise the opponent can escape after the Dtilt. You are most likely going to only get Fair 1 as a follow up, but a very low percents, you can land Fair 2 as well. This is a true combo until around 30%. Very solid combo, better used near the ledge for a possible edgeguarding opportunity.

Dtilt > Uair (27%)

After landing a Dtilt, chase the opponent and immediately short hop or full hop depending the opponent's % and Uair. Again, need to be very quick with this otherwise the opponent can escape. This is a true combo until around 69%. In most cases, this combo is superior to Dtilt > Fair because of the damage, large % window, and juggle opportunity. Dtilt > Fair might be better when used near the ledge on characters with bad recovery options, but obviously very situational.

Utilt > Utilt (18%)

Pretty simple utilt juggle and fairly safe. It is not a true combo and the likelyhood of comboing the second hit is very dependent on the character and their %. Certain characters can fast fall shield at really low percents, some can jump out before the second hit (although you might be able to catch their second jump), and a few can even throw out an aerial to interrupt it mid combo. It is not recommended to do more than 2 Utilts in a row, instead go for an Up-smash or Uair to follow up.

Utilt > Up-smash (27%)

After a Utilt at low percents, you have the option to follow up with an Up-smash. It is more punishable than a missed Utilt > Utilt, but the reward is greater. Not recommended once the opponent is at higher %.

Utilt > Uair (24%)
After a Utilt, chase the opponent with either a shorthop Uair or a fullhop Uair depending on their percent. Only works at mid percents when Utilt starts knocking them high enough where a second Utilt or Up-smash won't connect. This is somewhat easy to land, not very punishable, and a lot of characters are put in a bad position where they either have to airdodge or use their double jump to escape. You also have the option of stalling the Uair so that you can catch their airdodge or follow the opponent's double jump direction.
Sourspot Dair > Dair Bounce > Uair (23% or 38% with Uair)

Very hard to land combo and only works at low %, but it is a true combo if hit correctly. A lot of you may have "accidentally" done the first part of the combo, which is essentially using the sourspot Dair (which only appears after the Dair spike and the strong hit Dair hitboxes go away) to bounce into another dair following their hitstun direction, which ultimately leads to an Uair. At higher percents, the sourspot Dair knocks the opponent high enough that the bounced Dair won't land.

This combo is weird in that it actually works better on floaties. Fast fallers tend to be able to escape the bounced Dair. Big characters are especially vulnerable to this. It is a 3 hit true combo on Mario around 20%. Uair can sometimes be missed, but for the most part it is
a reliable finisher.

Fair 1 > Dtilt (20%)

Fair 1 at a grounded opponent either by fullhopping or shorthopping towards them and immediately follow up with a Dtilt. It is important to land Fair close to the hilt so that the Dtilt can reach the opponent better. Has a very small true combo window (from about 31% to 41% on Mario), but it can be a good mixup. It is possible to string a Uair after the Dtilt for a 35% combo.

Fair 1 > D-smash (22%)

Much bigger true combo window than Dair > Dtilt, the concept is the same, hit the grounded opponent with Fair 1 and immediately D-smash. True combos on Mario between 16% to 41%. During the later %, you need to stall the D-smash a little to land it and it will still be a true combo, although the charge time is so small it will not add any % to the combo. It is also very safe on whiff since it has good shield push and can hit an opponent rolling behind you.

Fair 1 > Jab (18%)

Of the Fair 1 combos, this has the biggest true combo window although not by much. Hit a grounded opponent with Fair 1 and immediately jab. True combos Mario from 12% to 41%. At later %, the jab will be very spaced out which means Jab 2 will whiff though Jab 3 may still hit, reducing the combo damage by 3%. At lower %, it is possible to jab cancel into other attacks, increasing the damage potential.

FF Sourspot Nair > Jab (16%)

Fast fall and Nair onto a grounded opponent and immediately jab. Of the aerial combos, this combo requires the least amount of precision and is fairly easy to land. This only works at lower %, since the opponent will eventually be knocked out of jab range. It is not a true combo since the opponent can shield the jab, however it does catch a lot of people off guard.

FF Sourspot Nair > Dash Attack (20%)

Fast fall and Nair onto a grounded opponent and immediately Dash Attack towards them. This only works at high percents where the opponent will begin to do their tumble animation. Mario begins his tumble animation when he gets hit by a FF Nair at 78%. In order to land the Dash Attack, the opponent needs to miss their tech upon landing (which can be sometimes difficult seeing as there isn't a huge time window between getting hit by Nair and landing). It is surprisingly safe though, even if the opponent does tech roll, they most likely won't be able to react in time to punish your Dash Attack. Can also be a good kill setup at very high %, but you will need to dash farther in order to land the Dash Attack, giving the opponent more time to react. If the FF Nair throws the opponent offstage, but close enough to the ledge, you can possibly land a Dash Attack at the edge.

Bair > Bair (16%)

Either full hop or short hop towards an aerial or grounded opponent and hit them with a bair, immediately using your double jump to bair again. This is a true combo from 0% to around 50%. As you reach higher %, Bair 1 from the second Bair may whiff but Bair 2 will still land. Short hopping as opposed to full hopping makes this easier to pull off. Great when combined with RAR.

Bair > Reverse Spin Attack (22%)

Trap an opponent in both hits of a Bair and immediately Reverse Spin Attack after Bair 2. A true combo from 0% to 30% on Mario. Technically you can still true combo between 30% to around 50%, but you need to have good initial horizontal air speed to pull that off. It isn't worth trying at those % because whiffing a Spin Attack can lead to a big punish.

Bair 1 > Some grounded attacks

Bair 1 links to some grounded attacks and all will be mentioned under this section. In order to do this, simply land Bair 1 on a grounded opponent and it will auto cancel upon landing, giving you an opportunity to follow up with another attack. These are not listed as true combos in training mode, but they are inescapable if done correctly. This combo also works at any % since Bair has set knockback. Grounded attack that can combo from Bair 1 include:

Bair 1 > Pivot Jab (13%) - Simply pivot and jab after landing Bair 1. Potential damage can increase if you jab cancel.

Bair 1 > Pivot D-smash (17%-20%) - After landing Bair 1, pivot and D-smash. Damage varies slightly based on whether you hit the sweetspot or not. Good vertical kill potential.

Bair 1 > Pivot Utilt (13%) - After landing Bair 1, pivot and Utilt. Most reliable Bair 1 combo since you may still hit an opponent if you failed to pivot and still not too punishable on whiff. Decent vertical kill potential.

Bair 1 > Reverse Grounded Spin Attack (17%) - After landing Bair 1, immediately B Reverse Spin Attack. Very good horizontal kill potential, but failing to B Reverse can lead to huge punishment although you can still catch opponents in the back hit.

There are other grounded attack that seem to work like Ftilt and U-smash, but those are not true combos.

Zair > Grounded attack

Shorthop Zair towards an opponent, immediately following up with an attack upon landing. Works best when the second hitbox of Zair lands and you DI towards the opponent after landing it. Damage varies based on which hitboxes of zair hit. Nothing is guaranteed, although some very good mixups can come out of this. Some good examples include:

Zair > Jab (12%-16%) - If you expect the opponent to dash grab or dash attack at you, this is a good option.

Zair > Grab (9%-13%) - If you expect the opponent to shield upon landing, you can grab them. Sometime the zair spaces them out too far, in which case it is not recommended.

Zair > F-smash (21%-25%) - If you expect the opponent to spotdodge upon landing, go for a F-smash. Has good range, so if you read their spotdodge wrong and they shield, you should be safe.

Zair >D-smash (15%-19%) - If you expect an opponent to roll behind you upon landing, go for a D-smash. Also safe because of shield push and catching rolls.


Up-throw > Utilt on Fox (16%)

Grab Fox, Up-throw, an immediately Utilt. This only on Fox from 0% to 13% (due to him have a significantly faster fall speed than the rest of the cast) therefore this is an extremely situational combo, although it isn't a bad way to start out a match against a tough MU. Can potentially start juggles.

Down-throw > Attack

Down-throw never true combos into anything, but you can start a string if you can read you opponents habits. Most of these strings no longer work once down-throw starts knocking opponents away too far, but you can still rack up quite a bit of damage at earlier %. The only way they can avoid a read completely is if they double jump away, which often times creates an advantageous position for Link.

Down-throw > Up air (20%-22% depending on if Uair sweetspots) - If you notice the opponent likes to double jump behind you after a down throw, just fullhop and Uair to catch their double jump.

Down-throw > Forward Smash (26%) - If you are at very low % and you notice the opponent likes to airdodge after a throw, forward smash in their direction.

Down-throw > Spin Attack (21%) - Same concept as above, but forward smash won't reach anymore at mid %. After throwing the opponent, chase the opponent, read their airdodge, and Spin Attack. If you notice the opponent likes to throw out an aerial instead of airdodging simply run up, shield their aerial, and Up-B/Up Smash/Grab out of shield.

Other combos I need to test further:

Jab > stuff

I'll probably slowly add stuff to this, so continually check back on this post. If you guys have any suggestions/contributions, feel free to share. I think later on I'll expand testing these combos to characters of other extremes like Jigglypuff, Fox, and Bowser to get more accurate % windows on the true combos but for now I want to focus on getting a list done.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Well, here goes. I decided not to format it like the Greninja combo thread since so many of Links combos work differently on different characters and for simplicity. For the true combos, I'm testing these on training mode Mario and seeing if the combo meter registers them as combos (though some true combos are not registered for some reason). Most fast fallers and big characters are susceptible to most of these combos at higher percents than listed.

Blue means the combo is a true combo at most percents and cannot be escaped by the opponent once the initial hit is landed.

Green means the combo is almost guaranteed, but can be interrupted by the opponent. Some can be true combos at certain percents, but the window is much smaller than blue combos.

Yellow denotes combos that rely on reads and none are guaranteed. You need to anticipate an opponent's behavior (such as airdodging, shielding, jabbing, throwing out an aerial) to make these work.

Bomb throw > almost any attack (% damage varies)

Let's get the most obvious and important one out of the way. Most Link mains should know that a bomb throw leads into lots of attacks. The explosion has a lot of hitstun and Link does not get hurt by the explosion if it hit the opponent. The bomb sends opponents at a 70 degree angle away from the side they got hit by the bomb. First of all, there are many way to throw the bomb to initiate this combo. JCT and Bombsliding are good options when grounded. However, bomb combos also work in the air. For example, you can down throw a bomb and footstool the opponent while they're in hitstun from the bomb. You can also up throw a bomb into an upair. If you can catch someone off guard near the ledge, you can actually JCT a bomb at them and immediately follow up with a Dair spike, but this is extremely difficult to land.

It's tough to be more specific with this because of the many combo possibilities, but bomb combos are definitely something you need to learn. Although your follow ups change based on how much damage the opponent has, you should most likely be able to chain something if you threw the bomb close enough to them and you're quick enough. Although you can of course try your own bomb combos, I recommend the following:

Forward throw > Fsmash - Does the most damage out of any two attack bomb combo (25%), but only works at low percents.

Forward throw > Ftilt - This starts to be the more reliable option once the opponent is at mid percents.


Forward throw > Fair - At some point, the bomb will still knock them high enough that Ftilt will no longer reach them. Fair one is a good option at this point, but you can also try to Uair if you notice the opponent is DIing back towards you.

Down throw > Nair - A good anti-juggle option if you happen to have a bomb in your hand or if you want to approach from above. If you have good timing, you can try to dthrow > Dair, but it is risky if the initial down throw missed.

Dtilt > Fair (18% if only Fair 1 hits, 30% if both Fair 1 and Fair 2 hit)

After landing a Dtilt, immediately fullhop and Fair. You have to be very quick with this, otherwise the opponent can escape after the Dtilt. You are most likely going to only get Fair 1 as a follow up, but a very low percents, you can land Fair 2 as well. This is a true combo until around 30%. Very solid combo, better used near the ledge for a possible edgeguarding opportunity.

Dtilt > Uair (27%)

After landing a Dtilt, immediately short hop or full hop depending the opponent's % and Uair. Again, need to be very quick with this otherwise the opponent can escape. This is a true combo until around 69%. In most cases, this combo is superior to Dtilt > Fair because of the damage, large % window, and juggle opportunity. Dtilt > Fair might be better when used near the ledge on character with bad recovery option, but obviously very situational.

Sourspot Dair > Dair Bounce > Uair (23% or 38% with Uair)

Very hard to land combo and only works at low %, but it is a true combo if hit correctly. A lot of you may have "accidentally" done the first part of the combo, which is essentially using the sourspot Dair (which only appears after the Dair spike and the strong hit Dair hitboxes go away) to bounce into another dair following their hitstun direction (if you fast fall, you don't bounce), which ultimately leads to an Uair.

This combo is weird in that it actually works better on floaties. Fast fallers tend to be able to escape the bounced Dair. Big characters are especially vulnerable to this. It is a 3 hit true combo on Mario around 20%. Uair can sometimes be missed, but for the most part it is a reliable finisher.

Other combos I need to test further:

Bair (1) > stuff
Jab > stuff
Boomerang > Fair
Zair > stuff
FF Nair > stuff
Uthrow > Utilt on fast fallers
Utilt > Uair
Dthrow > stuff

I'll probably slowly add stuff to this, so continually check back on this post. If you guys have any suggestions/contributions, feel free to share. I think later on I'll expand testing these combos to characters of other extremes like Jigglypuff, Fox, and Bowser to get more accurate % windows on the true combos but for now I want to focus on getting a list done.
Good job dude.
Just checking though, did you use the definitions in the smash dictionary when you said 'true combo' and 'combo'? You might want to edit the post just a tad, just so it's technically correct, my favourite kind of correct XD.
 

Elessar

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Well, here goes. I decided not to format it like the Greninja combo thread since so many of Links combos work differently on different characters and for simplicity. For the true combos, I'm testing these on training mode Mario and seeing if the combo meter registers them as combos (though some true combos are not registered for some reason). Most fast fallers and big characters are susceptible to most of these combos at higher percents than listed.

Blue means the combo is a true combo at most percents and cannot be escaped by the opponent once the initial hit is landed.

Green means the combo is almost guaranteed, but can be interrupted by the opponent. Some can be true combos at certain percents, but the window is much smaller than blue combos.

Yellow denotes combos that rely on hard reads and none are guaranteed. You need to anticipate an opponent's behavior (such as airdodging, shielding, jabbing, throwing out an aerial) to make these work.

Bomb throw > almost any attack (% damage varies)

Let's get the most obvious and important one out of the way. Most Link mains should know that a bomb throw leads into lots of attacks. The explosion has a lot of hitstun and Link does not get hurt by the explosion if it hit the opponent. The bomb sends opponents at a 70 degree angle away from the side they got hit by the bomb. First of all, there are many ways to throw the bomb to initiate this combo. JCT and Bombsliding are good options when grounded. However, bomb combos also work in the air. For example, you can down throw a bomb and footstool the opponent while they're in hitstun from the bomb. You can also up throw a bomb into an upair. If you can catch someone off guard near the ledge, you can actually JCT a bomb at them and immediately follow up with a Dair spike, but this is extremely difficult to land.

It's tough to be more specific with this because of the many combo possibilities, but bomb combos are definitely something you need to learn. Although your follow ups change based on how much damage the opponent has, you should most likely be able to chain something if you threw the bomb close enough to them and you're quick enough. Although you can of course try your own bomb combos, I recommend the following:

Forward throw > Fsmash (24%) - Does the most damage out of any two attack bomb combo, but only works at low percents.

Forward throw > Ftilt (18%) - This starts to be the more reliable option once the opponent is at mid percents.


Forward throw > Fair (13%) - At some point, the bomb will still knock them high enough that Ftilt will no longer reach them. Fair one is a good option at this point, but you can also try to Uair if you notice the opponent is DIing back towards you.

Down throw > FF Nair (11%) - A good anti-juggle option if you happen to have a bomb in your hand or if you want to approach from above. If you have good timing, you can try to dthrow > Dair, but it is risky if the initial down throw missed.

Dtilt > Fair (18% if only Fair 1 hits, 30% if both Fair 1 and Fair 2 hit)

After landing a Dtilt, immediately fullhop and Fair. You have to be very quick with this, otherwise the opponent can escape after the Dtilt. You are most likely going to only get Fair 1 as a follow up, but a very low percents, you can land Fair 2 as well. This is a true combo until around 30%. Very solid combo, better used near the ledge for a possible edgeguarding opportunity.

Dtilt > Uair (27%)

After landing a Dtilt, chase the opponent and immediately short hop or full hop depending the opponent's % and Uair. Again, need to be very quick with this otherwise the opponent can escape. This is a true combo until around 69%. In most cases, this combo is superior to Dtilt > Fair because of the damage, large % window, and juggle opportunity. Dtilt > Fair might be better when used near the ledge on characters with bad recovery options, but obviously very situational.

Utilt > Utilt (18%)

Pretty simple utilt juggle and fairly safe. It is not a true combo and the likelyhood of comboing the second hit is very dependent on the character and their %. Certain characters can fast fall shield at really low percents, some can jump out before the second hit (although you might be able to catch their second jump), and a few can even throw out an aerial to interrupt it mid combo. It is not recommended to do more than 2 Utilts in a row, instead go for an Up-smash or Uair to follow up.

Utilt > Up-smash (27%)

After a Utilt at low percents, you have the option to follow up with an Up-smash. It is more punishable than a missed Utilt > Utilt, but the reward is greater. Not recommended once the opponent is at higher %.

Utilt > Uair (24%)
After a Utilt, chase the opponent with either a shorthop Uair or a fullhop Uair depending on their percent. Only works at mid percents when Utilt starts knocking them high enough where a second Utilt or Up-smash won't connect. This is somewhat easy to land, not very punishable, and a lot of characters are put in a bad position where they either have to airdodge or use their double jump to escape. You also have the option of stalling the Uair so that you can catch their airdodge or follow the opponent's double jump direction.
Sourspot Dair > Dair Bounce > Uair (23% or 38% with Uair)

Very hard to land combo and only works at low %, but it is a true combo if hit correctly. A lot of you may have "accidentally" done the first part of the combo, which is essentially using the sourspot Dair (which only appears after the Dair spike and the strong hit Dair hitboxes go away) to bounce into another dair following their hitstun direction, which ultimately leads to an Uair. At higher percents, the sourspot Dair knocks the opponent high enough that the bounced Dair won't land.

This combo is weird in that it actually works better on floaties. Fast fallers tend to be able to escape the bounced Dair. Big characters are especially vulnerable to this. It is a 3 hit true combo on Mario around 20%. Uair can sometimes be missed, but for the most part it is
a reliable finisher.

Fair 1 > Dtilt (20%)

Fair 1 at a grounded opponent either by fullhopping or shorthopping towards them and immediately follow up with a Dtilt. It is important to land Fair close to the hilt so that the Dtilt can reach the opponent better. Has a very small true combo window (from about 31% to 41% on Mario), but it can be a good mixup. It is possible to string a Uair after the Dtilt for a 35% combo.

Fair 1 > D-smash (22%)

Much bigger true combo window than Dair > Dtilt, the concept is the same, hit the grounded opponent with Fair 1 and immediately D-smash. True combos on Mario between 16% to 41%. During the later %, you need to stall the D-smash a little to land it and it will still be a true combo, although the charge time is so small it will not add any % to the combo. It is also very safe on whiff since it has good shield push and can hit an opponent rolling behind you.

Fair 1 > Jab (18%)

Of the Fair 1 combos, this has the biggest true combo window although not by much. Hit a grounded opponent with Fair 1 and immediately jab. True combos Mario from 12% to 41%. At later %, the jab will be very spaced out which means Jab 2 will whiff though Jab 3 may still hit, reducing the combo damage by 3%. At lower %, it is possible to jab cancel into other attacks, increasing the damage potential.

FF Sourspot Nair > Jab (16%)

Fast fall and Nair onto a grounded opponent and immediately jab. Of the aerial combos, this combo requires the least amount of precision and is fairly easy to land. This only works at lower %, since the opponent will eventually be knocked out of jab range. It is not a true combo since the opponent can shield the jab, however it does catch a lot of people off guard.

FF Sourspot Nair > Dash Attack (20%)

Fast fall and Nair onto a grounded opponent and immediately Dash Attack towards them. This only works at high percents where the opponent will begin to do their tumble animation. Mario begins his tumble animation when he gets hit by a FF Nair at 78%. In order to land the Dash Attack, the opponent needs to miss their tech upon landing (which can be sometimes difficult seeing as there isn't a huge time window between getting hit by Nair and landing). It is surprisingly safe though, even if the opponent does tech roll, they most likely won't be able to react in time to punish your Dash Attack. Can also be a good kill setup at very high %, but you will need to dash farther in order to land the Dash Attack, giving the opponent more time to react. If the FF Nair throws the opponent offstage, but close enough to the ledge, you can possibly land a Dash Attack at the edge.

Bair > Bair (16%)

Either full hop or short hop towards an aerial or grounded opponent and hit them with a bair, immediately using your double jump to bair again. This is a true combo from 0% to around 50%. As you reach higher %, Bair 1 from the second Bair may whiff but Bair 2 will still land. Short hopping as opposed to full hopping makes this easier to pull off. Great when combined with RAR.

Bair > Reverse Spin Attack (22%)

Trap an opponent in both hits of a Bair and immediately Reverse Spin Attack after Bair 2. A true combo from 0% to 30% on Mario. Technically you can still true combo between 30% to around 50%, but you need to have good initial horizontal air speed to pull that off. It isn't worth trying at those % because whiffing a Spin Attack can lead to a big punish.

Bair 1 > Some grounded attacks

Bair 1 links to some grounded attacks and all will be mentioned under this section. In order to do this, simply land Bair 1 on a grounded opponent and it will auto cancel upon landing, giving you an opportunity to follow up with another attack. These are not listed as true combos in training mode, but they are inescapable if done correctly. This combo also works at any % since Bair has set knockback. Grounded attack that can combo from Bair 1 include:

Bair 1 > Pivot Jab (13%) - Simply pivot and jab after landing Bair 1. Potential damage can increase if you jab cancel.

Bair 1 > Pivot D-smash (17%-20%) - After landing Bair 1, pivot and D-smash. Damage varies slightly based on whether you hit the sweetspot or not. Good vertical kill potential.

Bair 1 > Pivot Utilt (13%) - After landing Bair 1, pivot and Utilt. Most reliable Bair 1 combo since you may still hit an opponent if you failed to pivot and still not too punishable on whiff. Decent vertical kill potential.

Bair 1 > Reverse Grounded Spin Attack (17%) - After landing Bair 1, immediately B Reverse Spin Attack. Very good horizontal kill potential, but failing to B Reverse can lead to huge punishment although you can still catch opponents in the back hit.

There are other grounded attack that seem to work like Ftilt and U-smash, but those are not true combos.

Zair > Grounded attack

Shorthop Zair towards an opponent, immediately following up with an attack upon landing. Works best when the second hitbox of Zair lands and you DI towards the opponent after landing it. Damage varies based on which hitboxes of zair hit. Nothing is guaranteed, although some very good mixups can come out of this. Some good examples include:

Zair > Jab (12%-16%) - If you expect the opponent to dash grab or dash attack at you, this is a good option.

Zair > Grab (9%-13%) - If you expect the opponent to shield upon landing, you can grab them. Sometime the zair spaces them out too far, in which case it is not recommended.

Zair > F-smash (21%-25%) - If you expect the opponent to spotdodge upon landing, go for a F-smash. Has good range, so if you read their spotdodge wrong and they shield, you should be safe.

Zair >D-smash (15%-19%) - If you expect an opponent to roll behind you upon landing, go for a D-smash. Also safe because of shield push and catching rolls.


Other combos I need to test further:

Jab > stuff
Boomerang > Fair
Uthrow > Utilt on fast fallers
Dthrow > stuff

I'll probably slowly add stuff to this, so continually check back on this post. If you guys have any suggestions/contributions, feel free to share. I think later on I'll expand testing these combos to characters of other extremes like Jigglypuff, Fox, and Bowser to get more accurate % windows on the true combos but for now I want to focus on getting a list done.
Never test things in training. It doesn't yield the same results as in an actual game.
 

Knife8193

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Yeah, I have a lot of verifying to do, but for the most part the info is accurate. For example I've done Bair 1 > Utilt many times. Whenever I get an offline buddy to help out, I'll be sure make some changes.I guess you can treat these as pending verification for now, I just thought the combo meter was at least somewhat reliable, despite not registering some combos as true.
 

DarkDeity15

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So no discussion about slow running or FF break? For one, I'd like to know just how much more quickly Link can act out of his skid animation following the instructions of the vid if someone would be so kind, and assuming a lot of what Link does as landing options involve FFing with an aerial, FF break can be quite useful. Mostly when provided that it were used as a mix-up.
 
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Drigo Toes

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Well... Actually FF break is an adquired ability for almost any Link user... It is instintive and very noticeable the first time you get into play.
As for slow running... Taking into account Link's run speed and stop animation, it is actually better to walk, pivot or act out of toss.
 

DarkDeity15

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Well... Actually FF break is an adquired ability for almost any Link user... It is instintive and very noticeable the first time you get into play.
As for slow running... Taking into account Link's run speed and stop animation, it is actually better to walk, pivot or act out of toss.
Yeah but since slow running allows you to act out of a run way faster than you normally would, landing those non-pivoted smash attacks, jabs and tilts (outside of usmash) may be a bit easier to do, with that slightly added boost in mobility. Imo, that's pretty big. I recommend watching the video if you haven't already to get a good explanation of how slow running works.
 
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Dumbfire

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That's probably because you can't play him like you would in a 1v1, which I would assume is what they were doing. It just doesn't work that way. In fact, it's a completely different meta for Link.
You're almost insulting everyone who actually used him in teams. Link is bad in teams. You don't have time for extensive bomb tricks or amazing team combos while stuck in an average team game: you'll be lucky to have a bomb out because there's constantly opponents forcing you into CQC. Link in CQC is just a bad Ike. Dair is nice off-stage, Uair and Jab and Utilt are promising, Fsmash kills early, but beyond that Link has nothing in teams. His useless grab and awful grab pay-off disadvantage him greatly. In Brawl Link could spam Dair in teams effectively, but that is far from as useful this time around because of Dair's decreased knockback. Ask Zerker, Link7, Catpuke and me -- who, you know, actually played Link in teams numerous tournaments. He is open to gimps, not that great in CQC, is a little slow and doesn't make up for it enough in power. Certain counterpicks disadvantage team Links immensely too and there's no way you can ban them all. There are characters that completely shut down Link in teams, like Yoshi, Sheik, Diddy, Rosa, because their neutral completely outmatches Link's in close-up neutral. The best players we ever beat with Link in teams were these:



Yet that involved a lot of luck and a very close 2-1 set. We tried everything from double Link to my Link with his MK, his Link with my Ganon, his Link with my Palutena -- and though his Link and my Palu worked well occasionally it was no stretch to figure out Palu + MK was far better still.
 
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DarkDeity15

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You're almost insulting everyone who actually used him in teams. Link is bad in teams. You don't have time for extensive bomb tricks or amazing team combos while stuck in an average team game: you'll be lucky to have a bomb out because there's constantly opponents forcing you into CQC. Link in CQC is just a bad Ike. Dair is nice off-stage, Uair and Jab and Utilt are promising, Fsmash kills early, but beyond that Link has nothing in teams. His useless grab and awful grab pay-off disadvantage him greatly. In Brawl Link could spam Dair in teams effectively, but that is far from as useful this time around because of Dair's decreased knockback. Ask Zerker, Link7, Catpuke and me -- who, you know, actually played Link in teams numerous tournaments. He is open to gimps, not that great in CQC, is a little slow and doesn't make up for it enough in power. Certain counterpicks disadvantage team Links immensely too and there's no way you can ban them all. There are characters that completely shut down Link in teams, like Yoshi, Sheik, Diddy, Rosa, because their neutral completely outmatches Link's in close-up neutral. The best players we ever beat with Link in teams were these:



Yet that involved a lot of luck and a very close 2-1 set. We tried everything from double Link to my Link with his MK, his Link with my Ganon, his Link with my Palutena -- and though his Link and my Palu worked well occasionally it was no stretch to figure out Palu + MK was far better still.
Natrally though I'd assume Link would do well in teams due to his versatility. About how many doubles tourneys have you been in compared to singles in Sm4sh using Link? What I'm proposing here is that maybe the Link teams meta just hasn't been fully fleshed out yet. I could still be wrong about this so yeah, whatevz.

Note: Have you tried using tether canceling to mix up your recoveries?
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Natrally though I'd assume Link would do well in teams due to his versatility. About how many doubles tourneys have you been in compared to singles in Sm4sh using Link? What I'm proposing here is that maybe the Link teams meta just hasn't been fully fleshed out yet. I could still be wrong about this so yeah, whatevz.

Note: Have you tried using tether canceling to mix up your recoveries?
No, don't say that XD. This is just asking for trouble XD. Assuming Link would do well in teams based off, what? Calling dumbfire out on experience? Insinuating that the Link meta for doubles is non-existent and unexplored when brawl was a thing and the same fundamental issues are still present? Bringing in a silly tech like tether cancelling as the answer to all life's troubles?
C'mon man. Let's be real here.
Link does poorly when under pressure with people in his face. More people on stage gives Link less space meaning there will almost always be someone in his face. For Link to do decently in teams he needs a team mate who is constantly hassling the other team and can take on two characters at the same time, just to give him a chance to breathe. Then try playing Link in triples; now that's a laugh. The character is simply at a greater disadvantage than others in this sort of environment. That's all there is to it.
 

DarkDeity15

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No, don't say that XD. This is just asking for trouble XD. Assuming Link would do well in teams based off, what? Calling dumbfire out on experience? Insinuating that the Link meta for doubles is non-existent and unexplored when brawl was a thing and the same fundamental issues are still present? Bringing in a silly tech like tether cancelling as the answer to all life's troubles?
C'mon man. Let's be real here.
Link does poorly when under pressure with people in his face. More people on stage gives Link less space meaning there will almost always be someone in his face. For Link to do decently in teams he needs a team mate who is constantly hassling the other team and can take on two characters at the same time, just to give him a chance to breathe. Then try playing Link in triples; now that's a laugh. The character is simply at a greater disadvantage than others in this sort of environment. That's all there is to it.
Alright, jeez. I just thought things would be different with the changes made to Link in Sm4sh (including customs), but whatever you say. :glare:
 
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Elessar

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Alright, jeez. I just thought things would be different with the changes made to Link in Sm4sh (including customs), but whatever you say. :glare:
Just what changes exactly? The removal of cancels? His lack of dacus? His useless dair? Which are these miracle changes that have suddenly made Link more viable in doubles?

I have a suggestion, PinkDeity, how about you actually go and get some competitive offline experience before trying to develop the meta of a game you don't fully understand? So far most things you have said have been wrong and have spread misinformation. You really have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to playing at a competitive level, and until you do, you should reconsider posting in this thread. You're literally making more harm than good.
 
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ama99

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You're almost insulting everyone who actually used him in teams. Link is bad in teams. You don't have time for extensive bomb tricks or amazing team combos while stuck in an average team game: you'll be lucky to have a bomb out because there's constantly opponents forcing you into CQC. Link in CQC is just a bad Ike. Dair is nice off-stage, Uair and Jab and Utilt are promising, Fsmash kills early, but beyond that Link has nothing in teams. His useless grab and awful grab pay-off disadvantage him greatly. In Brawl Link could spam Dair in teams effectively, but that is far from as useful this time around because of Dair's decreased knockback. Ask Zerker, Link7, Catpuke and me -- who, you know, actually played Link in teams numerous tournaments. He is open to gimps, not that great in CQC, is a little slow and doesn't make up for it enough in power. Certain counterpicks disadvantage team Links immensely too and there's no way you can ban them all. There are characters that completely shut down Link in teams, like Yoshi, Sheik, Diddy, Rosa, because their neutral completely outmatches Link's in close-up neutral. The best players we ever beat with Link in teams were these:



Yet that involved a lot of luck and a very close 2-1 set. We tried everything from double Link to my Link with his MK, his Link with my Ganon, his Link with my Palutena -- and though his Link and my Palu worked well occasionally it was no stretch to figure out Palu + MK was far better still.
To be fair those were some great players you were facing. The fact that you could beat them with Link is damn impressive.

I agree though, Link is not great in doubles.
 

Dumbfire

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Natrally though I'd assume Link would do well in teams due to his versatility. About how many doubles tourneys have you been in compared to singles in Sm4sh using Link? What I'm proposing here is that maybe the Link teams meta just hasn't been fully fleshed out yet. I could still be wrong about this so yeah, whatevz.

Note: Have you tried using tether canceling to mix up your recoveries?
Here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/aval...-melee-smash-4-the-netherlands-europe.397674/ 13th out of 28 teams
http://smashboards.com/threads/goodgames-well-played-ii-the-netherlands-europe.392504/ 13th out of 38 teams
http://smashboards.com/threads/ggwp3-smash4-singles-the-netherlands-europe-26th-april.400877/ 9th out of 25 teams

I've also teamed with someone other than Cat (a CF) in a tourney with round robin doubles: doubles was cancelled before it was finished, but I played another 7 double sets there. Granted I've been in more singles events but I don't think that's the issue. Tethering works best for recovery, but Link is still easily pressured. We weren't exactly being spiked or killed at 50%, but it was far easier to make it difficult for Link to get onstage, giving the opponent stage control (integral in doubles) and time. The 'meta' you look for is, I repeat, mostly the meta of a weaker Ike.

Alright, jeez. I just thought things would be different with the changes made to Link in Sm4sh (including customs), but whatever you say. :glare:
Meteor bombs might be effective in doubles in ways, but at the same time it makes recovering for Link much more difficult, which is what I'd be worried about. With two potential opponents out there it was often neccessary for us to recover with a bomb.

To be fair those were some great players you were facing. The fact that you could beat them with Link is damn impressive.

I agree though, Link is not great in doubles.
The Diddy was pretty salty, because Cat just yolo daired him and gimped him at 30 percent. That was luck though, and other sets against a Diddy never turned out that way. They technically "should" have taken that set, and if anyone carried it it was Palutena (Palutena works well in doubles because her recovery gets you back onstage quick, her Bair and Dash attack go through everything and her Usmash and especially Uair kill insanely fast + she has fine aerial mobility which Link really lacks).
 

Dumbfire

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In other news, when you bombslide / dash throw near the ledge you do actually slide off if you then immediately draw another bomb. Not only do you then get the perfect position for a galeguard if you throw the boomerang at an upward angle, if you do the reverse fake-out bombslide you will actually slide off in reverse, a unique position from which you can 1. drop the new bomb with Z and simultaneously grab the ledge 2. Double jump and throw the bomb against the wall, making it bounce of downward while you autosnap the ledge 3. Airdodge tether to recover with bomb in hand 4. Throw up the bomb and Up B (making it so that, when the opponent tries to punish you, the bomb will hit the both of you.

Here are some uses of the various bombslide shenigans.


Notice also the second clip featuring pressuring with the reverse fake-out bombslide. I have started saving these clip (when they're played on my Wii U).
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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The video is great. Some of the things you did are pretty ridiculous yet surprisingly legit, like at 17 seconds. If you've got the opponent conditioned to shield when you pull a bomb, reverse fake out bomb sliding past them is surprisingly effective. Or when you slid off-stage against that MK and threw the bomb up which covered you in case the Up-special missed; that was so beautiful.
I'll add the sliding off the edge info to the AT thread in a moment. Nice find DF.


I'm just posting this here from the social fro future reference.
In other news I think the glitch where link slides off the platform while using his up b might actually be useful for edge guarding against chars with a vertical recovery if you're holding a cooked bomb so you can recover. even if you jump cancel the up b you still keep your jump afterwards which makes for an easy recovery, provided you cook the bomb long enough.
Using SAF with a held bomb for edge guards. Interesting. A bit 'all or nothing' but certainly an interesting thought. Because of the way multi-hit moves work in this game, you would be dragging them down with you. If the opponent has a terrible vertical recovery, that could mean their death. There are obviously a few issues with it though, such as being able to cook the bomb for long enough, putting yourself in a dangerous situation (regardless of whether you hit the opponent of not? but certainly if you miss), not to mention the issues you'd have to deal with if you stuffed anything up.

Along these same lines though, you can pull out a bomb, then immediately jump off, double jump at some point and use Up-B way out off-stage which will kill at ridiculously low percents and the bomb will save you every time. And you don't need to feel committed when you jump off-stage with a bomb. In fact you shouldn't, because that would be bad. Feel free to combo it into a DJ Fair or use it to bait out an airdodge. The point of all this is, going out off-stage with a bomb is an option that shouldn't be overlooked.
 

DUKEL

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Along these same lines though, you can pull out a bomb, then immediately jump off, double jump at some point and use Up-B way out off-stage which will kill at ridiculously low percents and the bomb will save you every time. And you don't need to feel committed when you jump off-stage with a bomb. In fact you shouldn't, because that would be bad. Feel free to combo it into a DJ Fair or use it to bait out an airdodge. The point of all this is, going out off-stage with a bomb is an option that shouldn't be overlooked.
Killing opponents with a bomb holding up b is super satisfying. The only thing is if you whiff (and sometimes even if you don't) it's really easy for your opponent to punish you since you're coming down without a jump, and you might still be in hitstun from your bomb. It's good for securing that final stock or as a surprise (because nobody expects Link to use up b offstage). So just play it safe. Like foxy said, you're not committed to anything.

Another thing about the SAF edge guarding is that the timing is pretty difficult to master. But, if you time it wrong, you'll do a spin attack 2.0 or a grounded up b, which, with a cooked bomb in hand, is surprisingly safe.
 

DarkDeity15

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Well, here goes. I decided not to format it like the Greninja combo thread since so many of Links combos work differently on different characters and for simplicity. For the true combos, I'm testing these on training mode Mario and seeing if the combo meter registers them as combos (though some true combos are not registered for some reason). Most fast fallers and big characters are susceptible to most of these combos at higher percents than listed.

Blue means the combo is a true combo at most percents and cannot be escaped by the opponent once the initial hit is landed.

Green means the combo is almost guaranteed, but can be interrupted by the opponent. Some can be true combos at certain percents, but the window is much smaller than blue combos.

Yellow denotes combos that rely on hard reads and none are guaranteed. You need to anticipate an opponent's behavior (such as airdodging, shielding, jabbing, throwing out an aerial) to make these work.

Bomb throw > almost any attack (% damage varies)

Let's get the most obvious and important one out of the way. Most Link mains should know that a bomb throw leads into lots of attacks. The explosion has a lot of hitstun and Link does not get hurt by the explosion if it hit the opponent. The bomb sends opponents at a 70 degree angle away from the side they got hit by the bomb. First of all, there are many ways to throw the bomb to initiate this combo. JCT and Bombsliding are good options when grounded. However, bomb combos also work in the air. For example, you can down throw a bomb and footstool the opponent while they're in hitstun from the bomb. You can also up throw a bomb into an upair. If you can catch someone off guard near the ledge, you can actually JCT a bomb at them and immediately follow up with a Dair spike, but this is extremely difficult to land.

It's tough to be more specific with this because of the many combo possibilities, but bomb combos are definitely something you need to learn. Although your follow ups change based on how much damage the opponent has, you should most likely be able to chain something if you threw the bomb close enough to them and you're quick enough. Although you can of course try your own bomb combos, I recommend the following:

Forward throw > Fsmash (24%) - Does the most damage out of any two attack bomb combo, but only works at low percents.

Forward throw > Ftilt (18%) - This starts to be the more reliable option once the opponent is at mid percents.


Forward throw > Fair (13%) - At some point, the bomb will still knock them high enough that Ftilt will no longer reach them. Fair one is a good option at this point, but you can also try to Uair if you notice the opponent is DIing back towards you.

Down throw > FF Nair (11%) - A good anti-juggle option if you happen to have a bomb in your hand or if you want to approach from above. If you have good timing, you can try to dthrow > Dair, but it is risky if the initial down throw missed.

Dtilt > Fair (18% if only Fair 1 hits, 30% if both Fair 1 and Fair 2 hit)

After landing a Dtilt, immediately fullhop and Fair. You have to be very quick with this, otherwise the opponent can escape after the Dtilt. You are most likely going to only get Fair 1 as a follow up, but a very low percents, you can land Fair 2 as well. This is a true combo until around 30%. Very solid combo, better used near the ledge for a possible edgeguarding opportunity.

Dtilt > Uair (27%)

After landing a Dtilt, chase the opponent and immediately short hop or full hop depending the opponent's % and Uair. Again, need to be very quick with this otherwise the opponent can escape. This is a true combo until around 69%. In most cases, this combo is superior to Dtilt > Fair because of the damage, large % window, and juggle opportunity. Dtilt > Fair might be better when used near the ledge on characters with bad recovery options, but obviously very situational.

Utilt > Utilt (18%)

Pretty simple utilt juggle and fairly safe. It is not a true combo and the likelyhood of comboing the second hit is very dependent on the character and their %. Certain characters can fast fall shield at really low percents, some can jump out before the second hit (although you might be able to catch their second jump), and a few can even throw out an aerial to interrupt it mid combo. It is not recommended to do more than 2 Utilts in a row, instead go for an Up-smash or Uair to follow up.

Utilt > Up-smash (27%)

After a Utilt at low percents, you have the option to follow up with an Up-smash. It is more punishable than a missed Utilt > Utilt, but the reward is greater. Not recommended once the opponent is at higher %.

Utilt > Uair (24%)
After a Utilt, chase the opponent with either a shorthop Uair or a fullhop Uair depending on their percent. Only works at mid percents when Utilt starts knocking them high enough where a second Utilt or Up-smash won't connect. This is somewhat easy to land, not very punishable, and a lot of characters are put in a bad position where they either have to airdodge or use their double jump to escape. You also have the option of stalling the Uair so that you can catch their airdodge or follow the opponent's double jump direction.
Sourspot Dair > Dair Bounce > Uair (23% or 38% with Uair)

Very hard to land combo and only works at low %, but it is a true combo if hit correctly. A lot of you may have "accidentally" done the first part of the combo, which is essentially using the sourspot Dair (which only appears after the Dair spike and the strong hit Dair hitboxes go away) to bounce into another dair following their hitstun direction, which ultimately leads to an Uair. At higher percents, the sourspot Dair knocks the opponent high enough that the bounced Dair won't land.

This combo is weird in that it actually works better on floaties. Fast fallers tend to be able to escape the bounced Dair. Big characters are especially vulnerable to this. It is a 3 hit true combo on Mario around 20%. Uair can sometimes be missed, but for the most part it is
a reliable finisher.

Fair 1 > Dtilt (20%)

Fair 1 at a grounded opponent either by fullhopping or shorthopping towards them and immediately follow up with a Dtilt. It is important to land Fair close to the hilt so that the Dtilt can reach the opponent better. Has a very small true combo window (from about 31% to 41% on Mario), but it can be a good mixup. It is possible to string a Uair after the Dtilt for a 35% combo.

Fair 1 > D-smash (22%)

Much bigger true combo window than Dair > Dtilt, the concept is the same, hit the grounded opponent with Fair 1 and immediately D-smash. True combos on Mario between 16% to 41%. During the later %, you need to stall the D-smash a little to land it and it will still be a true combo, although the charge time is so small it will not add any % to the combo. It is also very safe on whiff since it has good shield push and can hit an opponent rolling behind you.

Fair 1 > Jab (18%)

Of the Fair 1 combos, this has the biggest true combo window although not by much. Hit a grounded opponent with Fair 1 and immediately jab. True combos Mario from 12% to 41%. At later %, the jab will be very spaced out which means Jab 2 will whiff though Jab 3 may still hit, reducing the combo damage by 3%. At lower %, it is possible to jab cancel into other attacks, increasing the damage potential.

FF Sourspot Nair > Jab (16%)

Fast fall and Nair onto a grounded opponent and immediately jab. Of the aerial combos, this combo requires the least amount of precision and is fairly easy to land. This only works at lower %, since the opponent will eventually be knocked out of jab range. It is not a true combo since the opponent can shield the jab, however it does catch a lot of people off guard.

FF Sourspot Nair > Dash Attack (20%)

Fast fall and Nair onto a grounded opponent and immediately Dash Attack towards them. This only works at high percents where the opponent will begin to do their tumble animation. Mario begins his tumble animation when he gets hit by a FF Nair at 78%. In order to land the Dash Attack, the opponent needs to miss their tech upon landing (which can be sometimes difficult seeing as there isn't a huge time window between getting hit by Nair and landing). It is surprisingly safe though, even if the opponent does tech roll, they most likely won't be able to react in time to punish your Dash Attack. Can also be a good kill setup at very high %, but you will need to dash farther in order to land the Dash Attack, giving the opponent more time to react. If the FF Nair throws the opponent offstage, but close enough to the ledge, you can possibly land a Dash Attack at the edge.

Bair > Bair (16%)

Either full hop or short hop towards an aerial or grounded opponent and hit them with a bair, immediately using your double jump to bair again. This is a true combo from 0% to around 50%. As you reach higher %, Bair 1 from the second Bair may whiff but Bair 2 will still land. Short hopping as opposed to full hopping makes this easier to pull off. Great when combined with RAR.

Bair > Reverse Spin Attack (22%)

Trap an opponent in both hits of a Bair and immediately Reverse Spin Attack after Bair 2. A true combo from 0% to 30% on Mario. Technically you can still true combo between 30% to around 50%, but you need to have good initial horizontal air speed to pull that off. It isn't worth trying at those % because whiffing a Spin Attack can lead to a big punish.

Bair 1 > Some grounded attacks

Bair 1 links to some grounded attacks and all will be mentioned under this section. In order to do this, simply land Bair 1 on a grounded opponent and it will auto cancel upon landing, giving you an opportunity to follow up with another attack. These are not listed as true combos in training mode, but they are inescapable if done correctly. This combo also works at any % since Bair has set knockback. Grounded attack that can combo from Bair 1 include:

Bair 1 > Pivot Jab (13%) - Simply pivot and jab after landing Bair 1. Potential damage can increase if you jab cancel.

Bair 1 > Pivot D-smash (17%-20%) - After landing Bair 1, pivot and D-smash. Damage varies slightly based on whether you hit the sweetspot or not. Good vertical kill potential.

Bair 1 > Pivot Utilt (13%) - After landing Bair 1, pivot and Utilt. Most reliable Bair 1 combo since you may still hit an opponent if you failed to pivot and still not too punishable on whiff. Decent vertical kill potential.

Bair 1 > Reverse Grounded Spin Attack (17%) - After landing Bair 1, immediately B Reverse Spin Attack. Very good horizontal kill potential, but failing to B Reverse can lead to huge punishment although you can still catch opponents in the back hit.

There are other grounded attack that seem to work like Ftilt and U-smash, but those are not true combos.

Zair > Grounded attack

Shorthop Zair towards an opponent, immediately following up with an attack upon landing. Works best when the second hitbox of Zair lands and you DI towards the opponent after landing it. Damage varies based on which hitboxes of zair hit. Nothing is guaranteed, although some very good mixups can come out of this. Some good examples include:

Zair > Jab (12%-16%) - If you expect the opponent to dash grab or dash attack at you, this is a good option.

Zair > Grab (9%-13%) - If you expect the opponent to shield upon landing, you can grab them. Sometime the zair spaces them out too far, in which case it is not recommended.

Zair > F-smash (21%-25%) - If you expect the opponent to spotdodge upon landing, go for a F-smash. Has good range, so if you read their spotdodge wrong and they shield, you should be safe.

Zair >D-smash (15%-19%) - If you expect an opponent to roll behind you upon landing, go for a D-smash. Also safe because of shield push and catching rolls.


Other combos I need to test further:

Jab > stuff
Boomerang > Fair
Uthrow > Utilt on fast fallers
Dthrow > stuff

I'll probably slowly add stuff to this, so continually check back on this post. If you guys have any suggestions/contributions, feel free to share. I think later on I'll expand testing these combos to characters of other extremes like Jigglypuff, Fox, and Bowser to get more accurate % windows on the true combos but for now I want to focus on getting a list done.
What about Dtilt > Dair? Does that work?

Also, my bad for being an annoyance lately, guys. Not playing for this long is really messing up my common sense when discussing some things. If I could test this stuff out for myself, I guarantee that this wouldn't be an issue. For now I'll refrain from making any claims or whatever. I'll stick to asking questions only.
 

Elessar

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What about Dtilt > Dair? Does that work?

Also, my bad for being an annoyance lately, guys. Not playing for this long is really messing up my common sense when discussing some things. If I could test this stuff out for myself, I guarantee that this wouldn't be an issue. For now I'll refrain from making any claims or whatever. I'll stick to asking questions only.
The problem with your posts and you in general so far is your focus. For example, instead of asking whether it works or not you should ask whether it's viable or not. See, Link may be able to do 10 "combos" for instance, but 7 are not viable due to being extremely situational, working only on scrubs, or not advancing the neutral. Therefore, only 3 are viable and truly worth pursuing. Point in case, even if dtilt to dair did "work" what would you accomplish by this besides racking damage? You didn't position them favorably to you, you didn't send them offstage and you didn't kill them since this would only connect at low percentages (and dair doesn't kill until stupid percentages). So, why do it? What is the purpose of this string?

See, people talk about style and flashiness as if they're all that matter. Well, have fun losing while looking "cool".
 

Dumbfire

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See here (1m36s) for how bomb will keep you from being punished from Up Bing after. Somewhat ridiculous but another viable completely unexpected mix-up.
 

Linkmario00

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Don't know if this is a well known thing, but I found that bombslide isn't obligatory for sliding off the stage after a bomb throw. You can simply run to the edge and do a normal bomb throw, than immediately pull off another bomb and slide off the stage.
 

Elessar

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Don't know if this is a well known thing, but I found that bombslide isn't obligatory for sliding off the stage after a bomb throw. You can simply run to the edge and do a normal bomb throw, than immediately pull off another bomb and slide off the stage.
I remember reading somewhere this. Essentially use don't even need to throw a bomb just run and take out the bomb as you're leaving the platform. That's what has been mentioned before.
 

DarkDeity15

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The problem with your posts and you in general so far is your focus. For example, instead of asking whether it works or not you should ask whether it's viable or not. See, Link may be able to do 10 "combos" for instance, but 7 are not viable due to being extremely situational, working only on scrubs, or not advancing the neutral. Therefore, only 3 are viable and truly worth pursuing. Point in case, even if dtilt to dair did "work" what would you accomplish by this besides racking damage? You didn't position them favorably to you, you didn't send them offstage and you didn't kill them since this would only connect at low percentages (and dair doesn't kill until stupid percentages). So, why do it? What is the purpose of this string?

See, people talk about style and flashiness as if they're all that matter. Well, have fun losing while looking "cool".
Wait, so Dtilt's spike pops people strait up? That's news to me. It's likely then that Dtilt > meteor Dair would only kill people when you're on a moving platform offstage, or if the opponent DIs past a ledge. So it works, but yeah I'll give that it's situational. Though this proves my point. If I could actually play the game, I wouldn't even need to be asking all these questions and would instead give a detailed description of whatever I find that's notable.
 

Zelkam

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I remember reading somewhere this. Essentially use don't even need to throw a bomb just run and take out the bomb as you're leaving the platform. That's what has been mentioned before.
You mean F-bombing?
 

Elessar

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Wait, so Dtilt's spike pops people strait up? That's news to me. It's likely then that Dtilt > meteor Dair would only kill people when you're on a moving platform offstage, or if the opponent DIs past a ledge. So it works, but yeah I'll give that it's situational. Though this proves my point. If I could actually play the game, I wouldn't even need to be asking all these questions and would instead give a detailed description of whatever I find that's notable.
Well, did you mean dtilt on the Ledge or on the stage? If it's on the stage or on a platform it will pop them up. If it's on the Ledge you won't be able to react fast enough to combo in a dair.

You mean F-bombing?
Maybe. I don't recall what f-bombing was tbh.
 

DarkDeity15

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So yeah, here are a couple of things I've been thinking about.

I've noticed while watching replays on YT, hitting someone with a reverse Nair can potentially combo into a Bair, but no one would actually try to follow up with one. Reverse Nair from what I remember also sends people at a slightly more vertical angle than a normal Nair, bit I'm not entirely certain. I hope someone can test this out for me.

I've also noticed when watching TallGuy's tournament set, that the smoke from a bomb's explosion is so opaque, large, and lasting that it may potentially allow Link to mask an approach. The commentators even made a comment on it when TallGuy jabbed someone out of the smoke. Check out the vid in that last page. Someone should check this out as well.
 

Elessar

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So yeah, here are a couple of things I've been thinking about.

I've noticed while watching replays on YT, hitting someone with a reverse Nair can potentially combo into a Bair, but no one would actually try to follow up with one. Reverse Nair from what I remember also sends people at a slightly more vertical angle than a normal Nair, bit I'm not entirely certain. I hope someone can test this out for me.

I've also noticed when watching TallGuy's tournament set, that the smoke from a bomb's explosion is so opaque, large, and lasting that it may potentially allow Link to mask an approach. The commentators even made a comment on it when TallGuy jabbed someone out of the smoke. Check out the vid in that last page. Someone should check this out as well.
Would be a lot more helpful if you provided a link. Also, without even looking at it I can already say it sounds stupidly bad and useless.
 

Dumbfire

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Don't know if this is a well known thing, but I found that bombslide isn't obligatory for sliding off the stage after a bomb throw. You can simply run to the edge and do a normal bomb throw, than immediately pull off another bomb and slide off the stage.
Yea I said that:
In other news, when you bombslide / dash throw near the ledge you do actually slide off if you then immediately draw another bomb.
Normal dash throw works too. Dashing off doesn't work, that's a slide from platforms with extra forward momentum @ Elessar Elessar not this slide.

I've also noticed when watching TallGuy's tournament set, that the smoke from a bomb's explosion is so opaque, large, and lasting that it may potentially allow Link to mask an approach. The commentators even made a comment on it when TallGuy jabbed someone out of the smoke. Check out the vid in that last page. Someone should check this out as well.
That was a funny accident, there's no way lol. Sadly we can't go all ninja.
 
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