Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

Sabaca

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The meteor bombs can also be used to cancel a grounded UpB without being hit (because they clash?) if timed correctly.
PS: I did know about those meteor bomb clashes a while now but forgot to mention it here, my bad.
 
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Linkmario00

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If I'm correct, @ Elessar Elessar already mentioned that Meteor Bombs don't hit Link if they explode while Link has an active hitbox out. Don't know about the SA cancel however.
 

Zelkam

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I swiped this from the video replay thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAkumaNwKJs

Can we talk about the 40 second mark? Is it an edgeguarding tool we should be implementing in our offstage game? Or was I just stupid lucky?
Looks like you managed to hit him with your get up attack during his one frame of ledge snap vulnerability. Given the ridiculously strict timing and positioning needed to set this up, I'm gonna say you were just stupid luck, and looked good doing it. :shades:
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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The meteor bombs can also be used to cancel a grounded UpB without being hit (because they clash?) if timed correctly.
PS: I did know about those meteor bomb clashes a while now but forgot to mention it here, my bad.
Yes, but only the latter half is capable of clashing. The first three hits in front and the first two hits behind are transcendent.
I swiped this from the video replay thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAkumaNwKJs

Can we talk about the 40 second mark? Is it an edgeguarding tool we should be implementing in our offstage game? Or was I just stupid lucky?
Link is unable to grab the ledge if facing the wrong way during his Up-special recovery until he is toward the peak of it. As such there was no ledge snap and no invulnerability; combine this with the fact that he was pretty much sticking his head through the stage, and it's no wonder that the ledge attack hit. In most matchups and scenarios, this shouldn't happen though. Red Link should have recovered facing the stage and used the curve of the stage to take care of the rest.
 

KenMeister

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Yes, but only the latter half is capable of clashing. The first three hits in front and the first two hits behind are transcendent.

Link is unable to grab the ledge if facing the wrong way during his Up-special recovery until he is toward the peak of it. As such there was no ledge snap and no invulnerability; combine this with the fact that he was pretty much sticking his head through the stage, and it's no wonder that the ledge attack hit. In most matchups and scenarios, this shouldn't happen though. Red Link should have recovered facing the stage and used the curve of the stage to take care of the rest.
I've actually ran into an incident like that before, except was playing as Mario vs. Ash's Bowser, so I highly doubt it's a character exclusive thing.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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so I highly doubt it's a character exclusive thing.
I never said otherwise. I more or less said that it only affects some characters such that it is possible to recovery in such a way that you won't grab the ledge without holding down from such an angle or in such a way that you will also be in that particular position where a ledge attack will hit, and that even then in most cases that I can think of it's totally avoidable. I mean it's possible for some matchups to actually force this situation, e.g. if the character that was going to do the ledge attack first hit the recovering character with a very light attack and then instantly grabbed the ledge and buffered the ledge attack while the character being hit by the attack had a very quick up-special recovery that they tried to sweetspot to the ledge, and then because they were hit recently the ledge is unavailable so they won't snap to it, which puts them in a position where they are close enough to the edge that a ledge attack could hit them, and then depending.... you know what, just, I'm going with my original sentence.
I never said otherwise.
 

DarkDeity15

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This reminds me though. I remember someone comboing a Spin attack into a meteor dair by grabbing the ledge with the spin attack and then acting out of the ledge grab in time. Or at least that's what it looked like. I believe it was Kirinblaze who did it in one of the vids he uploaded. Is it a true combo? I also remember being able to combo an incomplete spin attack into a ledge get-up attack pretty consistantly by accident in a similar manner.

I know this may have been discussed already, but how viable are Zair confirms? Last I remember, Zair can true combo into Dsmash, though for whatever reason you can't buffer one out of Zair, making the combo a little difficult. Not to mention that your opponent can DI out of the combo at higher %s. It's still very doable, however. I'm also aware of the other follow-ups that are possible. But is RAR Bair one of them? Arrow confirms out of Zair seem like they may be the most guaranteed option since it's a projectile that travels forward pretty quickly and has low startup, but I could be wrong.

Lastly, I don't see anyone using tether cancels to mix up their recoveries at all in your replays. Like, why? I see so many situations where you guys lose a stock or even the game due to being gimped whereas it could've easily been avoided by tether canceling (or hell, you could've used a tether cancel to retaliate and end up gimping your opponent instead). It makes me cringe whenever it happens. Seriously. Tether canceling. Use it, it's awesome. Enough said.
 
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Drigo Toes

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I get a play in my tournament to pressure the shields. It is (bomb in hand near the opponent) SH->Bomb D-throw->Nair (you can get or not the bomb depending on the distance with the opponent). Depending if you get the bomb, you can either double jab into Dsmash or starting again with the bomb. Also, Spin Attack has a decent shield pressure, so you can destroy shields if they are a little less than half in power.
 

Rizen

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People were talking about combos so I'll list the ones I know to get started.
True combos (tested in training) :
Bair 1st hit>reverse upB (confirmed by FIOD?).
Bomb thrown down from the air>any aerial or footstool.
Bomb thrown forward when standing next to the opponent (at point black range so they are launched up toward Link) >Utilt/Usmash or Uair at higher %s.
Forward bomb throw>jab/Ftilt/Fair/Utilt/Usmash/upB (ground or air)/Zair/grab/Dash attack... pretty much everything except projectiles or Dair provided Link acts immediately and can reach the opponent after the bomb blows them up.
Any projectile>any other projectile if positioned right.
Zair 1st hit>immediately land>jab/upB/Dsmash
Fair 1st hit>jab/upB/Dsamsh
Nair>jab/upB/Dsmash (I have trouble getting this consistently so the timing might be tight or % specific)
Returning custom boomerang 2 or 3>any attack.
Strong Nair>arrow lock: Nair starts tripping at at 40%ish-65%ish (provided the opponent doesn't tech).
Weak Nair>arrow lock: Weak Nair trips from 90%ish on (provided the opponent doesn't tech). Arrows might need a slight charge the higher the damage %s.

Keep in mind these combos are tight timing and only work if the opponent is close enough for the followup to connect immediately. The followup attack is damage and spacing dependent.

These chains are easy but seem possible to escape:
Bair>upB in the air (maybe combo?)
Bair>Bair
Ledge trump>tap away from ledge>double jump>Bair (maybe true combo?)
Utilt>Utilt/Usmash at low %s
Dthrow>Ftilt/Utilt/Usmash/Fair/Uair, depending on the opponent's DI and damage %.
Jab 2 cancel>quick attack based on reads.
 

DarkDeity15

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People were talking about combos so I'll list the ones I know to get started.
True combos (tested in training) :
Bair 1st hit>reverse upB (confirmed by FIOD?).
Bomb thrown down from the air>any aerial or footstool.
Bomb thrown forward when standing next to the opponent (at point black range so they are launched up toward Link) >Utilt/Usmash or Uair at higher %s.
Forward bomb throw>jab/Ftilt/Fair/Utilt/Usmash/upB (ground or air)/Zair/grab/Dash attack... pretty much everything except projectiles or Dair provided Link acts immediately and can reach the opponent after the bomb blows them up.
Any projectile>any other projectile if positioned right.
Zair 1st hit>immediately land>jab/upB/Dsmash
Fair 1st hit>jab/upB/Dsamsh
Nair>jab/upB/Dsmash (I have trouble getting this consistently so the timing might be tight or % specific)
Returning custom boomerang 2 or 3>any attack.
Strong Nair>arrow lock: Nair starts tripping at at 40%ish-65%ish (provided the opponent doesn't tech).
Weak Nair>arrow lock: Weak Nair trips from 90%ish on (provided the opponent doesn't tech). Arrows might need a slight charge the higher the damage %s.

Keep in mind these combos are tight timing and only work if the opponent is close enough for the followup to connect immediately. The followup attack is damage and spacing dependent.

These chains are easy but seem possible to escape:
Bair>upB in the air (maybe combo?)
Bair>Bair
Ledge trump>tap away from ledge>double jump>Bair (maybe true combo?)
Utilt>Utilt/Usmash at low %s
Dthrow>Ftilt/Utilt/Usmash/Fair/Uair, depending on the opponent's DI and damage %.
Jab 2 cancel>quick attack based on reads.
Wait...so Dthrow true combos into stuff now?
 
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Rizen

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Some true combos can still be escaped with DI though. But yeh, thnx.
Especially at higher damage %s. At low %s Link's combos are mostly inescapable but that doesn't last long :c. That's why jab 1 cancels were such a huge loss; it's hard to get kill setups with Link.


I didn't test Dtilt so that might have chains or combos. The ones listed were what I could think of but there may be more.
 
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DarkDeity15

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Doesn't Link have the most potential in teams? There's so much **** he can do with a team mate he otherwise couldn't that it's pretty ridiculous. Not to mention that he's an amazing character to have as a partner in general. Link can cover you and hold off opponents with his projectiles, while having a huge abundance of options to either contribute to, start or end team combos, often with a kill (such as a smash attack, Spin Attack or an offstage meteor Dair).

Link may not be such a great character in singles, but it's possible that in team matches he may be among the best in the game (Which is odd considering Link traditionally prefers to fight alone in the Zelda games. Thanks Sakurai.). Don't even get me started on Link ditto teams lol.
 
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KenMeister

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It's hard to say. Most people generally didn't like Link in teams in the past because his projectiles gets in everyone's way, but since his kill options have gotten major buffs since Melee, that's probably changed.
 

DarkDeity15

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If it can be escaped with DI, then by definition it isn't a true combo.

Swing by the smash dictionary some time.
Yeah, my bad. I've always assumed a true combo to be in which an opponent is hit again while still being in hitstun from a previous hit, no matter the situation. I guess I was wrong. I'll take your word for it.

Dude, no, just no. Do you even know what the "true" in true combo stands for?

Really, you're just embarrassing yourself.
Thanks, that definitely helps me out. *sarcasm*
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Yeah, my bad. I've always assumed a true combo to be in which an opponent is hit again while still being in hitstun from a previous hit, no matter the situation. I guess I was wrong. I'll take your word for it.
That would be closer to a 'combo', though I'd avoid using hitstun as a determining factor in a definition because there are many little things that can also be factored in. It might just be easier if you simply read the dictionary.
 

smashbrotherlink

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So then is anyone up for a dicussion on Link's metagame in teams?
I was playing Link in teams For Glory yesterday because I wanted to find out for myself if you were right about his having a lot of potential. In a team with Pacman against BowserJr/Robin I did really well at racking up damage and setting up kills, but I rarely landed a killing blow myself. In certain scenarios I was able effectively to use full-hop uncharged arrows to interrupt one oppenent's attacks against my ally from across the stage, and then be ready in time to hold off the other opponent on my side. I also found that I was quite often able to run up to a shielded opponent that my ally was attacking and throw a bomb, to tether grab, to pommel, and wait for my ally to land a smash attack on the helpless opponent. However in a team with Pacman against a pair of Ike players on Mute City we were basically helpless, as the two never seprated, and together covered too many options to work around.
 
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kxiong92

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You'd really just need to check the extreme cases. E.g. Jiggs, Samus, Fox, Bowser (edit: perhaps Ganon would be better for representing the heavy weight fast fallers), then like DH trying to use a Can to interrupt you and Marth using Up-special to escape, then there are those like Greninja that technically nothing works on due to being able to Shadow Sneak while in hitstun.
So I tested it on Jigglypuff, Samus, Bowser, Fox and Ganondorf. I couldn't test it on DH's can, Greninja's shadow sneak, and Marth's UpB because I don't have anyone to test them with me. I got it to work on Jigglypuff, Samus, Marth, Greninja, DH and Fox. But it didn't register as a combo for Bowser and Ganondorf. I also don't know how to read frames so I don't really know if it works with landing lag.
 
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FierceGaiety

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Using custom equips for reduced landing lag and 'skating traction' feels great. Still can't find a use for Ripping Boomerang or GiantBomb.com. Standard Up-B seems far and away the best version of that move. I like that Meteor Bombs combo so well and if they had a fuse like standard bombs I'd use them all the damn time. Is anyone else relying on bombs to set up pretty much everything?
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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So I tested it on Jigglypuff, Samus, Bowser, Fox and Ganondorf. I couldn't test it on DH's can, Greninja's shadow sneak, and Marth's UpB because I don't have anyone to test them with me. I got it to work on Jigglypuff, Samus, Marth, Greninja, DH and Fox. But it didn't register as a combo for Bowser and Ganondorf. I also don't know how to read frames so I don't really know if it works with landing lag.
Do you have a second controller? If so, training mode 1/4 hold can help there. If all you need the second person to do, e.g. in this case Ganon, is first try to jump out before he lands after being hit by Bair, or otherwise try to shield the moment he lands to test if he is able to powershield the spin attack in time, then this is all very possible to do by yourself.
First of all you want to find out if Ganon can DJ before landing after being hit by the first hit of Bair. So time it so that Link's Bair hits Ganon and is immediately cancelled by landing (you will be able to tell by skipping through (flicking L (on a GC controller)). An easy way to do this from memory for testing purposes is to SH and wait till Link is definitely falling back down (he has maybe moved down just under a head's length), input a Bair, flick L, input the fast fall, flick L a few times. Then upon landing the hit go over to the second controller, it would be easier if you did this in two goes so forget about Link for now. Flick through with the L button on the first controller until Ganon is about to land, then hold the jump button on the second controller and flick the L button on the first controller. Did Ganon DJ? If not then DJing is impossible, leaving you with the option of powershielding. Repeat the process of Link hitting Ganon with Bair. This time however, when Link lands (because his landing animation will be equal or less than the 10 frame buffer window), input a reverse grounded Up-B by holding the joystick half-way in between the upwards indent and the diagonally back and up indent, continue to hold this as you flick L until you see Link's animation change from landing lag to being in an upright position facing the other way. At this point leave the first controller alone other than to flick L. Flick L a few times until Ganon is about to land, then hold shield on the second controller, and then flick L on the first controller. Did Ganon powershield the spin attack? If not, then regardless of what the combo counter says, it's a true combo. Do similar things for everything else. Based on past experience I can already tell you what the results will be, but I think it would be good for you if you found the answers yourself.
 

8MAN

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Still can't find a use for Ripping Boomerang or GiantBomb.com.
The only thing I found for the Giant Bomb, is shield bombing, where you just sit in shield and let the thing explode. Considering the blast is huge, it works pretty consistantly at a close-ish range. Though the timing and self shield damage don't exactly make this a great tactic. Still fun to do though.
 

DarkDeity15

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I was playing Link in teams For Glory yesterday because I wanted to find out for myself if you were right about his having a lot of potential. In a team with Pacman against BowserJr/Robin I did really well at racking up damage and setting up kills, but I rarely landed a killing blow myself. In certain scenarios I was able effectively to use full-hop uncharged arrows to interrupt one oppenent's attacks against my ally from across the stage, and then be ready in time to hold off the other opponent on my side. I also found that I was quite often able to run up to a shielded opponent that my ally was attacking and throw a bomb, to tether grab, to pommel, and wait for my ally to land a smash attack on the helpless opponent. However in a team with Pacman against a pair of Ike players on Mute City we were basically helpless, as the two never seprated, and together covered too many options to work around.
An Ike pair of all things? I don't see how they could have such an advantage. It probably has something to do with team attack being off.
 

Koby_T

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I think Captain Falcon or Ganondorf could be good partners. Link's edge game is decent but not as solid as these two. Many of Link's attacks and projectiles launch upwards which is something Ganon and Capt could take huge advantage of. Captain Falcon has the speed to help dominate the stage when combined with Link's projectiles. Also, Warlock Punch, Falcon Punch, Knee of Justice, and Volcano Kick for teh style/disrespect points.
 

DarkDeity15

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I think Captain Falcon or Ganondorf could be good partners. Link's edge game is decent but not as solid as these two. Many of Link's attacks and projectiles launch upwards which is something Ganon and Capt could take huge advantage of. Captain Falcon has the speed to help dominate the stage when combined with Link's projectiles. Also, Warlock Punch, Falcon Punch, Knee of Justice, and Volcano Kick for teh style/disrespect points.
Link's edge and offstage game in general are actually pretty solid as well though. But I can definitely see partners taking advantage of Link's projectiles. It's one of the reasons he might be an amazing teams character, actually.

Also, knee of justice, Falcon or Warlock punch into a meteor Dair from Link would be the hypest thing ever.
 
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Linkmario00

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Maybe a good set up with Falcon and Ganondorf is to tether recovery with Link without actually grabbing the ledge when the opponent is recovering and right when they grab the ledge stole it and give the partner an easy spike chance
 

8MAN

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Maybe a good set up with Falcon and Ganondorf is to tether recovery with Link without actually grabbing the ledge when the opponent is recovering and right when they grab the ledge stole it and give the partner an easy spike chance
Guarenteed tether trump, that actually sounds pretty viable. Though I'm assuming this would work better in a 2 v 1 situation with Ganon, it might be pretty a good tactic for Falcon/Link teams, considering how fast Falcon can cover ground.
 

Renegade TX2000

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Maining both link and lil mac I can tell you this.... Link's up tilt is amazing vs lil mac... Use it on neutral a lot... Lil mac has a lot of difficulties getting around the move and if you get him then you can juggle him quite nicely.
 

FierceGaiety

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I don't have much doubles experience in SSB4.
Almost all my FG experience has been in doubles with my roommate and his Shulk or ZSS. Link is really good in team FG at least because of the time limit. With team attack off it's insane how many unsafe moves you can cover with just a boomerang or arrow shot. Doubles FG is stupid like that.

In actual news though doubles Link is a lot of fun. Toss a rang across the stage when your partner is edgeguarding to keep your other enemy busy while you z-drop an active bomb exactly one ledge roll away from the edge and toss another bomb straight up. Your partner gets to stand right at the edge and guard, you get to hang out in center stage to control the other enemy, and the poor guy trying to get back to the ledge gets to eat sword and die. Stand by for salt.
 

smashbrotherlink

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Almost all my FG experience has been in doubles with my roommate and his Shulk or ZSS. Link is really good in team FG at least because of the time limit. With team attack off it's insane how many unsafe moves you can cover with just a boomerang or arrow shot. Doubles FG is stupid like that.

In actual news though doubles Link is a lot of fun. Toss a rang across the stage when your partner is edgeguarding to keep your other enemy busy while you z-drop an active bomb exactly one ledge roll away from the edge and toss another bomb straight up. Your partner gets to stand right at the edge and guard, you get to hang out in center stage to control the other enemy, and the poor guy trying to get back to the ledge gets to eat sword and die. Stand by for salt.
That's really brutal, I'm gonna have to try that. My edge game consists often of SH dairs when they're close, and when they're far I pull a bomb, run off the ledge, toss it up and recover, so that when they are coming back 50/50 they get hit by the bomb and I can follow up with a fair or trap them in an aerial SA. Sometimes if they're under me I'll run off the ledge, fall past them, and then backflip to bair/nair and stage spike them as they try to recover.

An Ike pair of all things? I don't see how they could have such an advantage. It probably has something to do with team attack being off.
Yeah they would have killed each other if it had been on, but with it off they were able to cover one another's unsafe power moves and dominate, and my projectiles weren't much help because they were both great at perfect shields, so one would shield a projectile while the other charged past him and punished, and the windbox on my boomerang more often than not ended up being abused by them to charge smash attacks while being dragged back to me.
 
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FSK

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I don't want to burst any bubbles here, but Link is terrible in teams. Just ask any of the Link mains that have used him in actual tournaments and not scrub as **** FG.
 

Drigo Toes

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Link always has been a Tank in competitive teams... rack up damage, and keeping lives to the finisher (fox for example) do his job.

I think Link is less good in this game as a partner than in melee. Spin attack spikes are not present, so it is not possible to early kill inattentive dudes. Although, i think it is not so bad either... but there are better Tanks in this game.

I had a good level in teams in melee days with my brother... we actually played a lot with ZeRo and his teammate (a sheik) back to 2008-2009, and Link was a very good partner to my brother, even when Fox and Sheik has very good individual match ups againts him.
 
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