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Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)
- Thread starter Fox Is Openly Deceptive
- Start date
DarkDeity15
Smash Lord
Nice, I guess. So then that would mean first hit bair > bomb throw is guaranteed to work no matter what, correct? Speaking of, that could definitely lead into some of the lengthier combos Link can pull off, I'd imagine. For example, first hit bair > bomb throw > double bair > up b finisher (based on the earlier mentioned combo). There's even better kill setup potential with meteor bombs in play.
Too bad Link can't Z drop Bombs without Zairing like in Brawl. Z drop bomb>FF Bair catch it>(hit opponent and land to cancel 2nd hit) bomb throw at point black range>Usmash or Uair at higher %s would be a true combo.
Ah the magical, joyous world of make believe that Link doesn't suck.
Ah the magical, joyous world of make believe that Link doesn't suck.
DarkDeity15
Smash Lord
Fair can true combo into grabs at earlier %s, and so can nair. Weak hit nair can also true combo into Dsmash from low to almost mid %s I think.
Link doesn't suck lol. You can even perform what you just mentioned by IZACing.
Edit: Dammit, double post. My bad. It's like 2:22 AM here in Fl so I'm a bit off my usual state of mind.
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It is possible to get the first hit of Bair to hit the opponent then immediately land so that it cancels and then throw a bomb. You can either use a platform to put the bomb on and then do a regular FF drop kick beneath it, or you can C4 a bomb on the ground and then Bair without FFing on your way down when you are close enough to the ground so that you pick up the bomb but when you are still high enough up so that the first hit of Bair actually comes out.
Only, the first hit of Bair doesn't then combo into the bomb throw even if done perfectly, so while it's still an amazing string that could probably (realistically) lead into more amazing stuff, it's technically not a combo.
Only, the first hit of Bair doesn't then combo into the bomb throw even if done perfectly, so while it's still an amazing string that could probably (realistically) lead into more amazing stuff, it's technically not a combo.
DarkDeity15
Smash Lord
Well that's news to me. Are you saying that bomb throw has slower start-up that Utilt, therefore having less combo potential? Strange. It seems faster if anything. I'm sure it'll work in some MUs though (that is, if I understand this correctly).
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Lol. Ok, so I was looking into the meteor bombs just then, and I stumbled onto a pretty cool AT. And I have no idea why it works yet.
Description: Link picks up a meteor bomb with Dair, then so long as the hitbox is out, he will pogo off the explosion and receive no damage.
How to perform: You need a way to pick up the meteor bomb with the Dair, so first either z-drop it or throw it at the ground. Then, Jump and use Dair immediately.
Note: WTF?
Umm... it works on any percent... oh wow, so it works for Nair and U-air too in that you'll receive no damage and the move will be uninterrupted but obviously there will be no pogo. I'm going to assume for now that it would work with the other aerials too only it would require timing. This is weird though. So, the meteor bomb's explosion can be clashed with? That's my current theory.
Yeah, that's it. Ok so at least now I know why it happens. How strange. The normal bomb explosions have transcendant hitboxes. This really threw me off when I first saw it. It looked super janky to pogo off nothing, and there's no down-side, i.e. no 5% damage or anything. This should be a staple tech for users of the meteor bombs, even if it's used with a Nair for the sake of not having to worry about the explosion.
Description: Link picks up a meteor bomb with Dair, then so long as the hitbox is out, he will pogo off the explosion and receive no damage.
How to perform: You need a way to pick up the meteor bomb with the Dair, so first either z-drop it or throw it at the ground. Then, Jump and use Dair immediately.
Note: WTF?
Umm... it works on any percent... oh wow, so it works for Nair and U-air too in that you'll receive no damage and the move will be uninterrupted but obviously there will be no pogo. I'm going to assume for now that it would work with the other aerials too only it would require timing. This is weird though. So, the meteor bomb's explosion can be clashed with? That's my current theory.
Yeah, that's it. Ok so at least now I know why it happens. How strange. The normal bomb explosions have transcendant hitboxes. This really threw me off when I first saw it. It looked super janky to pogo off nothing, and there's no down-side, i.e. no 5% damage or anything. This should be a staple tech for users of the meteor bombs, even if it's used with a Nair for the sake of not having to worry about the explosion.
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DarkDeity15
Smash Lord
...WTF? Lol, I've gotta see this for myself. That's awesome. What do you think should be it's name?
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I genuinely find it hard to believe that this hasn't been found yet.
I think what this really tells us is that we should start labbing the custom moves. We clearly have no idea what's going on with them.
I think what this really tells us is that we should start labbing the custom moves. We clearly have no idea what's going on with them.
DarkDeity15
Smash Lord
I wholeheartedly agree. Thank goodness I'm not the only one who thinks that now. Question though. Does the AT you discovered work with giant bombs as well? As janky as you may think it is, it was probably put into the game on purpose and may just be a property of the meteor bombs. I remember it being talked about actually, just without the pogo thing with Dair (probably useful offstage).
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Oh, yeah I briefly looked into the giant bombs while I was testing and it didn't work for them. Also I'm fairly certain that it would work for all aerials (including Bair and Fair) as I said earlier, it's just that you'd need to time it perfectly, which would be difficult. And if we could still F-tilt/F-smash while holding a bomb, it would have worked for that too. This means it should work for Dash attack if timed properly. Maybe even Grounded Up-special? Oh but that's transcendent I think, so it wouldn't work.
Edit: I was just thinking about it and the Nair variation is no joke. It could make Nair even better for approaching. Say you go in with the Nair and it gets shielded, at that point the Nair is harmless, but then before you land while you're still up close, the bomb goes off, either putting more pressure on their shield or punishing their counter-option, but you are unaffected by the bomb and are then able to follow up yourself.
There's a lot of potential here, not just Dair mindgames (oh look I'm about to fall short with my Dair, I guess you should get ready to punish my landi-NOPE!).
Edit: I was just thinking about it and the Nair variation is no joke. It could make Nair even better for approaching. Say you go in with the Nair and it gets shielded, at that point the Nair is harmless, but then before you land while you're still up close, the bomb goes off, either putting more pressure on their shield or punishing their counter-option, but you are unaffected by the bomb and are then able to follow up yourself.
There's a lot of potential here, not just Dair mindgames (oh look I'm about to fall short with my Dair, I guess you should get ready to punish my landi-NOPE!).
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Zelkam
Resident Wizard
I remember someone mentioning that meteor bombs won't damage you if you have an active hitbox out, but I don't remember who said it or where.
Well I had a quick search, and I managed to find this post http://smashboards.com/threads/top-8-max-custom-sets-for-link.380198/#post-18083150 but for some reason he thought that the bomb would still damage you, and he made no mention of the Dair pogo. Which is weird.I remember someone mentioning that meteor bombs won't damage you if you have an active hitbox out, but I don't remember who said it or where.
Elessar
Nouyons TO
Yeah I had mentioned it already, but if I recall correctly I hot hat information from NL. Also, when I tested it there was no pogo effect and you did get the damage. I tested it more with uair, dair, and nair. In every case, back then, you'd be damaged but receive no knockback.
Wonder why that changed.
I actually lobbed with the extensively when he game first came out. Granted, I am not a technician so more labbing is not only welcome but necessary. However, that analysis I posted which you quoted was very thorough for the time when it was posted. Don't know if things changed or not though.
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Fair enough then. Well that explains a lot. It didn't make sense that something so simple could have gone unnoticed for all this time. It makes sense then that it simply hasn't been around to be noticed this whole time.
I'm not sure then when this new-found effect came in, but I guess it's here now; and I have to say, it's pretty damn good. I mean it makes up for the fact that the bomb has a shorter fuse (or at least it helps in that regard; e.g. you don't have to feel like you have to get rid of it or get it away from you). Plus with how easy it is to get it on the ground without it exploding (e.g. dash towards them JC throw downwards), using aerials while holding it isn't that difficult to set up. I'm not yet convinced that it's better than the regular bombs purely because its combo potential isn't anywhere near as good, and the fact that it can land on the ground without exploding isn't a big deal with soft throws in the picture, but being able to pogo off nothing or add hitboxes to Nair, or being able to cancel moves almost instantly at lower to medium percents, being able to land without exploding from much higher up e.g. off a platform or out of an aerial throw... it's certainly something to think about. I think that people are way too fixated on the off-stage gimp element and are ignoring its on-stage potential.
I might add at this point that you obviously don't need to be holding the bomb in order to pogo off it, just so long as the Dair hit box collides with the blast it will work, so e.g. you could throw it at the ground while in the air then Dair after it and bounce off the timed explosion so long as it is anywhere near you.
I'm not sure then when this new-found effect came in, but I guess it's here now; and I have to say, it's pretty damn good. I mean it makes up for the fact that the bomb has a shorter fuse (or at least it helps in that regard; e.g. you don't have to feel like you have to get rid of it or get it away from you). Plus with how easy it is to get it on the ground without it exploding (e.g. dash towards them JC throw downwards), using aerials while holding it isn't that difficult to set up. I'm not yet convinced that it's better than the regular bombs purely because its combo potential isn't anywhere near as good, and the fact that it can land on the ground without exploding isn't a big deal with soft throws in the picture, but being able to pogo off nothing or add hitboxes to Nair, or being able to cancel moves almost instantly at lower to medium percents, being able to land without exploding from much higher up e.g. off a platform or out of an aerial throw... it's certainly something to think about. I think that people are way too fixated on the off-stage gimp element and are ignoring its on-stage potential.
I might add at this point that you obviously don't need to be holding the bomb in order to pogo off it, just so long as the Dair hit box collides with the blast it will work, so e.g. you could throw it at the ground while in the air then Dair after it and bounce off the timed explosion so long as it is anywhere near you.
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Elessar
Nouyons TO
Well, iirc, this was tested on the 3ds, so maybe it was/is a difference between consoles.
Also, I did mention in that post again that meteor bombs were amazing at extending combos and have great combo potential. Until higher percentages the bomb will simply stun them briefly, thus allowing us to connect hits which wouldn't have worked otherwise, like DA. This way Link also gains more kill power.
As I said, more labbing is always welcome, specially since this info or 3 or 4 patches old. Also, I hate typing on my phone with cold hands...damn typos.
But the hitstun is practically non-existent until higher percents. That's what makes it so good for cancelling our own moves, because you can act almost immediately after. So I still don't see how it could be good for combos. But now I'm heading into the realms of theory-craft. I should really lab the meteor bombs thoroughly at some point.
Elessar
Nouyons TO
I lobbed them and played with them extensively when the game first came out, and those bombs plus the rang made Link a combo beast. Lab it and you'll see.
Drigo Toes
Smash Journeyman
Question:
I now that everyone knowns that bombs can be instant-dropped when you do a jump-recover from the legde (link doesn't perform a Zair), and the bomb falls from the legde vertically. It is very handy to take stage spikes and sush... even some recovery moves are hit by the bomb without take into account the ledge-invencibility.
Now, Why i don't see any player in videos make use of this? There are plenty of opportunities, and even more, cases when they are hit by the bomb when jump recover and the opponent is out-stage.
I now that everyone knowns that bombs can be instant-dropped when you do a jump-recover from the legde (link doesn't perform a Zair), and the bomb falls from the legde vertically. It is very handy to take stage spikes and sush... even some recovery moves are hit by the bomb without take into account the ledge-invencibility.
Now, Why i don't see any player in videos make use of this? There are plenty of opportunities, and even more, cases when they are hit by the bomb when jump recover and the opponent is out-stage.
Don't know, I saw you attempt it in your vid against the Lucario and been wanting to implement it in my playstyle. I just forgot about it until you mentioned it again.
DarkDeity15
Smash Lord
Bomb Dribbling though. With meteor bombs, it could be really good at stuffing approaches. And if you dthrow a meteor bomb at the ground, it can let you get away with some cool stuff, since the bomb bounces in the air afterwards and doesn't explode, allowing you to catch it pretty much any way you want. Even before you hit the ground if you dthrow it from the air. So in theory, this could be a very effective way to get dropkick > bomb throw strings with meteor bombs.
Elessar
Nouyons TO
I have a suggestion. How about if we stop being so obsessed about looking "good" and styling and start worrying about developing an actually effective and functional meta. I'd rather look like a dork and win than lose with "style".
Drigo Toes
Smash Journeyman
Well... what about this?
You are off-stage and get a bomb in your hand, and some nasty opponent try to gimp you, you dodge him and get into the ledge (with Z or Spin attack). This is a very normal situation and not very situational.
You can do a instant bomb drop in the very second you jump-recover from legde to the stage (legde-recover bomb for short?), and the bomb makes a wall for the opponent to recover. I've gimped the best diddys in my country with this movement. You can also do the same with meteor bomb, but this is a little dangerous.
You can also soft-throw bombs if your opponent is off stage for a similar effect (bomb bounces a little before fall off the stage), but in my experience, the bomb does not get to catch the opponent so effectively as a ledge-recover bomb.
In my experience, recorvers as Lucario's UpB and Marth's, legde-recover bombs doesn't hit them, but against Link, C. Falcon and Diddy, their hitbubbles let us get the hit, and a possible stage spike.
An failed example can be seen here (I normally don't save the gimps):
https://youtu.be/dSXu_aBwpJg?t=2m25s
Another good one is the following:
Your opponent is off-stage, and you remain in the stage because the opponent's recover si so safe (aka: Sheik).
You can do the following (proved by myself, i would upload a video of this play later): You plant a bomb in the stage in roll distance from the ledge, and cover other options of the oponnent with Dair or USmash.
Dair and U-smash catch jump-recover, stand-up recover and the former catch attack recover and staying in the legde without invincivility. If your opponnet tries to roll-recover, they active the bomb and, if you are doing a U-smash, they get punished by that move.
Maybe my description is a little fussy, but i will try to upload a video to make it clear.
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FierceGaiety
Smash Cadet
No freaking way dude. If I wanted to win I'd play Diddy, I want to be a cool guy that's why I play Link.
Batu
Smash Journeyman
You know what is cool? Winning i guess... :/
I've looked into this before. A while ago. I'd need someone to confirm the following, but I believe that items can be purposefully z-dropped on hit if you were hit out of the air with a move that put you into just the right amount/kind of hitstun i.e. more than a mere flinch but not enough to send you into a tumble animation. This is different to being forced to drop an item though. Again, that's all from a vague recollection of tests I did a long time ago, so don't take this as truth. In fact the more I think about it, the more I doubt its validity XD. But it's somewhere to start.
RonNewcomb
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2014
- Messages
- 449
While we're picking FiOD's brain: so Link's bombs don't blow him up if he hits someone with them, but they do if they hit the floor. Are there any fine points to this to be known? Like, what happens if the bomb hits someone's projectile/hydrant/etc. and explodes? And do the custom bombs work differently? (I noticed I never need to soft-throw the custom bombs; it's always soft thrown?)
Drigo Toes
Smash Journeyman
Well, you know that no custom bomb explote in contact with the ground... is not a soft throw, you can hard throw it against the floor, and they will not explote.
Elessar
Nouyons TO
If the bombs explode because they came into contact with another hurt box, they won't hurt the character who threw the bombs (Link). If the bomb explodes for any other reason (time's up or because it hit the floor) it will damage Link.
Zelkam
Resident Wizard
Yes, I'm pretty sure that the non-deliberate i.e. forced drop is more or less random.
It's not random; Link is programed to drop them when it's the most inconvenient
Ok so I'm going to test my above statements.
I've done some tests with Link's Jab 1 in the past (http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-techniques-here.379659/page-13#post-18519244) so that might be a good place to start. It's strange... they don't seem to work any more. I'm making the other character jump first and then get hit out of the air at the specific percents, but I can't seem to get the item to z-drop during the hitlag any more. Maybe it's to do with the fact that I previously combo'd into the second hit instead of it being a one-off hit.
No... that doesn't seem to be the case either. I used Sheik's F-tilt starting on 20% so that I would get a combo into the second hit, and I tried to z-drop the bomb during the hitlag of that hit and got nothing. This is weird. I was clearly getting consistent results in that linked post. What's different that could cause it to not work now? Surely it wasn't patched out. I would very much like to have a look at this pre-patch again, even just to do some tests with the old Jab again. Surely I wasn't talking about buffering a z-drop out of hitstun. Why would I keep saying 'on hit' then? What was I thinking?
I think I may have actually just misinterpreted my own post XD. Wow. For now, just disregard everything in that earlier post. I'm beginning to think that I was just talking about buffering a z-drop out of hitstun which comes out slightly before other options and is therefore sometimes able to get you out of combos.
I need to take a break from this.
I've done some tests with Link's Jab 1 in the past (http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-techniques-here.379659/page-13#post-18519244) so that might be a good place to start. It's strange... they don't seem to work any more. I'm making the other character jump first and then get hit out of the air at the specific percents, but I can't seem to get the item to z-drop during the hitlag any more. Maybe it's to do with the fact that I previously combo'd into the second hit instead of it being a one-off hit.
No... that doesn't seem to be the case either. I used Sheik's F-tilt starting on 20% so that I would get a combo into the second hit, and I tried to z-drop the bomb during the hitlag of that hit and got nothing. This is weird. I was clearly getting consistent results in that linked post. What's different that could cause it to not work now? Surely it wasn't patched out. I would very much like to have a look at this pre-patch again, even just to do some tests with the old Jab again. Surely I wasn't talking about buffering a z-drop out of hitstun. Why would I keep saying 'on hit' then? What was I thinking?
I think I may have actually just misinterpreted my own post XD. Wow. For now, just disregard everything in that earlier post. I'm beginning to think that I was just talking about buffering a z-drop out of hitstun which comes out slightly before other options and is therefore sometimes able to get you out of combos.
I need to take a break from this.
I discovered a weird inconsistency in Link's ground spin attack (SA). It's not transcendent but seems to behave differently vs different attacks. Ganon's sideB/downB and Jigglypuff's rollout always get beaten but SA. But Yoshi's egg roll and CF's Falcon kick sometimes get beaten, sometimes beat SA and sometimes clank with it. MK's drill rush seems to always beat SA (probably from disjoint and transcendence). I'll experiment more when I'm not tired and have time.
Linkmario00
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2015
- Messages
- 273
- NNID
- Linkmario00
Elessar
Nouyons TO
If my memory serves me right, you don't even need to HS to do that. All you have to do is press "a" at the right moment and you'll catch any item. I remember practicing this with Link's bombs vs a Sonic and he was able to catch the bombs by pressing "a" just as the bomb would've hit him.
Linkmario00
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2015
- Messages
- 273
- NNID
- Linkmario00
Yes, but it's much easier with the HS. Thought that if the HS blocks something it gives some lag, it's ideally better to press A.
Zelkam
Resident Wizard
Not to mention a lot sexier