Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[Dumbfire]

Care to explain?

Technical abilities required have been greatly reduced in Smash 4. The only truly technical things a Link player might use are the reverse bombslides. He's vastly less technical than in Brawl.

Does anybody have any data on the invulnerability frames we retaining once we up of the ledge? I'm asking because yesterday as I was playing Knife I timed my smashes to hit him as he got up but it whiffed through him everytime as if he was still invulnerable.

A normal get-up is remarkably safe in this game. Invincibility frames differ per character, but Chibo at the ROB boards found this for R.O.B.:

Ledge Get Up:
34 frames of invincibility
Can act on frame 35. This means you have 0 frames of vulnerability for this, and the only vulnerable time you would have is based on the start up lag of whatever option you pick.

 

[Elessar]

So essentially that one time in the last match that I did manage to connect my 2nd fsmash I was lucky he didn't shield on time, since shield has no start up lag? Damn. Well, the more you know. Normal get up is stupid safe then if you shield, though it can still be punished by a grab (which I did a couple of times).

I have to review my entire edge guard game now...

 

[Dumbfire]

So essentially that one time in the last match that I did manage to connect my 2nd fsmash I was lucky he didn't shield on time, since shield has no start up lag? Damn. Well, the more you know. Normal get up is stupid safe then if you shield, though it can still be punished by a grab (which I did a couple of times).

I have to review my entire edge guard game now...

Apparently shields start later:

Okay so here is from shielding:

http://imgur.com/5p27Lt8

Frame 0, I'm still in the middle of my idle animation.

Frame 1 of hitting shield, my animation changes majorly, obviously the start of the shield animation. No shield bubble yet, no invincibility frame, etc. I look vulnerable.

Frame 2, shield is out.

Now if I'm hit during frame 1, it might just kind of go into the powershield animation/noise routine, however, idk, ROB looks fairly vulnerable.

I did this again and took the screenshots of getting up from the ledge:

http://imgur.com/Nj5SbPw

Frame 0, I'm still invincible and I'm in the very last frame of my ledge get up animation.

Frame 1, oh hey, that's the exact same animation frame as before when I shield. Definitely consistent. Again, I look vulnerable.

Frame 2, shield is out.

Now I can't say for certain if I'm considered 'shielding' or not during this frame 1 animation, but it honestly looks to me like I'm not, and could mean that shields in this game have a one frame start up. This also means that get up > shield has a 1 frame vulnerability.

So there should be a single frame of vulnerability. Chibo tested it on his stream but I can't find it, I will search for the results. The ledge get-up invincibility may also differ per character -- again, no clue.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

No, as I said, there's one frame of vulnerability... Like, if you did a Nair or Dair and the hitbox was inside their character model when they attempted to stand up and shield, they would get hit. The Bomb is a special case. It takes a frame to say, yes I've collided with a hurtbox, and then go bang.

Edit: DF knows what he's talking about.

 

[Rizen]

Normal get up is stupid safe then if you shield, though it can still be punished by a grab (which I did a couple of times).

I have to review my entire edge guard game now...

I noticed this too. It's very hard to punish normal get up>buffered shield. And wifi makes the timing even harder. :/

Link might be less technical than Brawl but he's still a very technical character. It's more about improvising that set-in-tone combos.
Take Link's projectile game: Down B for bomb pull, 4 soft directional throws, 4 hard throws, Z drop, bomb shield, dodge a bomb's explosion, Fsmash with bomb. Pair this with boomerang angled and arrows at the desired charge to punish dodges. All while jumping/hopping and moving different directions with the control stick. Add in Link's Zair and sword chains. I think most things Link does can get pretty technical.

 

[Artmastercorey]

Question: Is link faster than toonlink outside of running animation?

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Question: Is link faster than toonlink outside of running animation?

Questions go in the q a thread. But no, gay is mostly faster than link. But what he doesn't have in speed he makes up for in raw manliness

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

If you just want a move that will hit people using ledge options with consistency and safety, Nair is the key imo. Doing a SH (towards the edge) Nair at the same time they move will hit the opponent out of a stand up to shield or it will avoid their ledge attack and punish them. Nair also works well for punishing ledge rolls and ledge hops for the same reason, that being it picks apart their small windows of vulnerability with it's long lasting far reaching hitbox. Now obviously it may not seem like the most rewarding punish, but it can easily lead into moves as you're well aware, and I believe it's far better to get consistent punishes from the ledge to rack up damage rather than get one good punish if you're lucky and take a lot of damage yourself throughout the game for your trouble.

 

[FSK]

What about nair to dsmash to cover get up, ledge attack and roll on stage?

For ledge jumps I usually uair them.

 

[Zane the pure]

N-air beats most getup attacks, proper spacing of D-smash beats ledge roll, I like grabbing when people simply getup and hold shiled, and I usually time a bomb throw with the enemy's landing on ledge jump.
If I get a really hard read I D-air ledge jumps.

I find myself killing with Up-throw often, maybe just because I'm camping people out like it yellowstone, but I get about 150% on em and grab->pummel to 160ish%->Up-throw kill. Sucks that one of Link's only kill confirms is at outrageous %.

 

[Himura Kenshin]

Real quick, boomerang to forward air connects when thrown in CQ.

 

[ConCeal12]

^ Yup. Low percent Boomerang to double Fair is a true combo. Insanely unsafe if your boomerang gets blocked at that range

 

[Lawz.]

^ Yup. Low percent Boomerang to double Fair is a true combo. Insanely unsafe if your boomerang gets blocked at that range

Hence why nobody does it.

 

[Elessar]

Hence why nobody does it.

I can still be done if timed properly, as a punish for a move with big end lag or punishing a laggy landing. It's not a good idea to rely on it and abuse it, but it's good to know this and be aware since it can be quite useful.

 

[Lawz.]

I can still be done if timed properly, as a punish for a move with big end lag or punishing a laggy landing. It's not a good idea to rely on it and abuse it, but it's good to know this and be aware since it can be quite useful.

Personally I would just fsmash since both hits connecting does around the same damage give or take 3-4 percent.

Although if someone does actually whiff a move that laggy, they deserve to be humiliated with a boomerang combo.

 

[FSK]

a bombstool can lead to a jab lock.

 

[Rizen]

Interesting metagame thing the Zeldas found:
http://smashboards.com/threads/zeld...le-warriors-dlc.344739/page-487#post-18604124
tl;dr the custom upB 'Farow's Squall' instantly creates a wind box that pushes the opponent away allowing Zelda to escape multi-hit moves. For Link this means Zelda can escape his Usmash, Fsmash2 and jab. Fortunately this only applies with custom moves allowed, has no attack, and it replaces Zelda's best KO move 'Farow's wind'. It's possible other characters' wind customs will allow escapes too.
Link might be able to Fsmash 1> dash attack or semi-charged arrow depending on where Zelda reappears.

 

[Himura Kenshin]

a bombstool can lead to a jab lock.

Bombstool? Like, meteor bomb to jab lock? Do they have to be airborne for this to work?

 

[Rizen]

Bombstool?

Normal bomb thrown down at the opponent when Link is in the air>footstool them>FF Nair starts the lock>jab>jab... iirc jab lock ends after 3 jabs in SSB4 so charge an Fsmash.

 

[Himura Kenshin]

Is this combo guaranteed(a REAL combo)?

 

[Elessar]

Is this combo guaranteed(a REAL combo)?

Yes it is when timed right. You have to be in the air above them and thow the bomb downwards, as they bomb explodes and sends them up you footstool them. When you're in the tumble animation footstool puts you in you can't tech the fall, so you FF nair and sourspot hit them as they wobble to make them wobble again. However, jab 1 WILL make them stand up, so you can go from the bombstool FF Nair into a jab lock. After the jab lock use the finisher of your choice.

One thing, arrows will keep the wobble animation going, so you can actually lock them in place with up to 3 arrows before a getup is forced to end the lock.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yes it is when timed right. You have to be in the air above them and thow the bomb downwards, as they bomb explodes and sends them up you footstool them. When you're in the tumble animation footstool puts you in you can't tech the fall, so you FF nair and sourspot hit them as they wobble to make them wobble again. However, jab 1 WILL make them stand up, so you can go from the bombstool FF Nair into a jab lock. After the jab lock use the finisher of your choice.

One thing, arrows will keep the wobble animation going, so you can actually lock them in place with up to 3 arrows before a getup is forced to end the lock.

I'm not going to lie, I have a few concerns about this.
For starters, let's please just get one thing straight; this is what I was worried about when I said we couldn't call the Jab Cancel tech a Jab Lock. If Jab makes them stand up and not wobble, this is not going to be a 'Jab Lock' as there is no lock as was present for Link in Brawl. Locks are still a thing in smash 4 so we can't go calling the jab cancel tech a lock. (and I don't care about other character boards and their Sheik 'f-tilt lock' nonsense; they were wrong.)
Second of all, while it is true that you can get up to three moves in with a Lock in smash 4 before it stops locking, our arrows will only Lock one time as they are too slow. If you use our custom 3 arrows however, then you can get three arrows in (though actually it would be just two if the sourspot Nair started the Lock).
Finally there's an issue with using the bombstool to sourspot Nair Lock (to one arrow?) to set up a Jab Cancel trap. The sourspot Nair stops locking people at low percents because beyond that it starts to hit them too hard, while the Jab Cancel trap (Jab Linking as I like to call it) starts working at medium to high percents on most characters especially when factoring in the realities of consistently being nearly frame perfect. If it were going to work it would be on a handful of characters at perfect percents. Take Diddy for example. A fresh sour spot Nair stops locking at exactly 40% (now where have I seen that number before).

 

[GabePR]

Hey i was going through Facebook and shoryuken.com post a video about link edgeguarding with bomb trumping i dont post the link here cause i dont have the 10 post yet but you guys should see it. It looks interesting

 

[Elessar]

I'm not going to lie, I have a few concerns about this.
For starters, let's please just get one thing straight; this is what I was worried about when I said we couldn't call the Jab Cancel tech a Jab Lock. If Jab makes them stand up and not wobble, this is not going to be a 'Jab Lock' as there is no lock as was present for Link in Brawl. Locks are still a thing in smash 4 so we can't go calling the jab cancel tech a lock. (and I don't care about other character boards and their Sheik 'f-tilt lock' nonsense; they were wrong.)
Second of all, while it is true that you can get up to three moves in with a Lock in smash 4 before it stops locking, our arrows will only Lock one time as they are too slow. If you use our custom 3 arrows however, then you can get three arrows in (though actually it would be just two if the sourspot Nair started the Lock).
Finally there's an issue with using the bombstool to sourspot Nair Lock (to one arrow?) to set up a Jab Cancel trap. The sourspot Nair stops locking people at low percents because beyond that it starts to hit them too hard, while the Jab Cancel trap (Jab Linking as I like to call it) starts working at medium to high percents on most characters especially when factoring in the realities of consistently being nearly frame perfect. If it were going to work it would be on a handful of characters at perfect percents. Take Diddy for example. A fresh sour spot Nair stops locking at exactly 40% (now where have I seen that number before).

I was wrong on the arrow, I got confused. However, you can lock with the arrow once and then go to a Jab which will force a get up. Check this combo (Link starts at 2:07). From this we can see that a bombstool to sourspotted FF nair, to arrow, to Jab, to grab, pound till release, to JCT (Jab cancel tech) could be possible. This combo should be tested though and it could even be made longer.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

However, you can lock with the arrow once and then go to a Jab which will force a get up. Check this combo (Link starts at 2:07). From this we can see that a bombstool to sourspotted FF nair, to arrow, to Jab, to grab, pound till release, to JCT (Jab cancel tech) could be possible. This combo should be tested though and it could even be made longer.

Bombstool to sourspot Nair to arrow is fine from memory, then the Jab would come out too late to hit immediately I reckon (and even if it did it wouldn't cause a forced get up because it doesn't lock) so you'd have to time it so it hits after the invincibility frames of the forced get up (much like the f-smash was timed in that video), then I'm not sure about Jab to Grab being an inescapable thing (though I can check, and it would be in a certain character specific percent range if it does work) and then I know for a fact that grab release to jab is never guaranteed on anyone as the opponent can shield well before they get jabbed.
If you ask me, and again I'd have to check, I'd say that the bombstool to Nair to Jab Link works on only a few characters, and then leave it at that. These would be characters that get (realistically) Jab Linked early and that are also heavy enough so that the Nair continues to lock for longer. I'm thinking of characters like Bowser, Ganon and Charizard.
I'll test this stuff properly later if anyone is interested.

 

[Elessar]

Bombstool to sourspot Nair to arrow is fine from memory, then the Jab would come out too late to hit immediately I reckon (and even if it did it wouldn't cause a forced get up because it doesn't lock) so you'd have to time it so it hits after the invincibility frames of the forced get up (much like the f-smash was timed in that video), then I'm not sure about Jab to Grab being an inescapable thing (though I can check, and it would be in a certain character specific percent range if it does work) and then I know for a fact that grab release to jab is never guaranteed on anyone as the opponent can shield well before they get jabbed.
If you ask me, and again I'd have to check, I'd say that the bombstool to Nair to Jab Link works on only a few characters, and then leave it at that. These would be characters that get (realistically) Jab Linked early and that are also heavy enough so that the Nair continues to lock for longer. I'm thinking of characters like Bowser, Ganon and Charizard.
I'll test this stuff properly later if anyone is interested.

You are right, grab release to jab is not a true combo, I forgot that agin. After I was corrected I keep remembering as a true combo because I fail hard. Anyways, jab to utilt is a true combo and can be then extended to another utilt to aeriel (any), or to JCT. so Jab to utilt to JCT maybe.

Anyways, all of these combos are character dependent and can be escaped with some DIing or even a form of Crouch Canceling (though I don't want to call it that since it's not really crouch cancelling). Jiggly can escape almost anything for instance, and falcon and weegee can also either escape or shield after one utilt, so every combo needs to be labbed on the chars and then posted on the respective MU thread maybe.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Whenever I see 'JCT' I instinctively think 'Jump Cancel Throw' instead of 'Jab Cancel Tech/Trap' XD. What to do.

 

[DarkDeity15]

You guys should really have a look at this. Very interesting stuff. Apparently Link's Dsmash and Dtilt can reach below the edge of the stage even against characters that have very little of their hurtbox ubove the ledge. So if you somehow get someone to grab the ledge a second time, you can dish out some heavy punishes. And when it comes to characters that grab the ledge higher (depending on the MU), it opens up more options to punish the higher they do so. Some characters grab the ledge so high that you can even use a grounded spin attack as an option to punish. I'll post some data later.

 

[Rizen]

You guys should really have a look at this. Very interesting stuff. Apparently Link's Dsmash and Dtilt can reach below the edge of the stage even against characters that have very little of their hurtbox ubove the ledge. So if you somehow get someone to grab the ledge a second time, you can dish out some heavy punishes. And when it comes to characters that grab the ledge higher (depending on the MU), it opens up more options to punish the higher they do so. Some characters grab the ledge so high that you can even use a grounded spin attack as an option to punish. I'll post some data later.

Adding to this, Ftilt hits significantly under the stage at the end of the swing.

 

[Akenero]

If you mean the custom one we actually haven't since it's not tourney legal and we're dedicate only to competitive play. However, I did make a post analyzing it a bit. Check it out if you want.

gale boomerang and It's combo potential is what I'm talking about

 

[DarkDeity15]

Dude. First hit bair>stuff is amazing. I'm surprised I haven't seen people talking about it more. If anything, first hit bair has similar or perhaps even more combo potential than Jab 1, because you can act out of it faster (making it a better kill set-up) and it works at virtually any %, though I'll admit that some moves vary and can be % and/or MU dependent. So far on Mario, 1st hit Bair can combo reliably into: Utilt, Dtilt, Usmash, Dsmash (unsure if hit 2 is that reliable, could depend on % with Mario), and turn around/pivot grab. I'm assuming that more options open up the taller and/or heavier the opposing character is. More research is needed. I'll edit this post as soon as I can get some time in the lab this weekend.

As for Link's ledge punish options depending on the MU, here ya go (completed):

First off, Ftilt, Dtilt, Dsmash and Dash Attack all work on everyone, so I won't bother including any of them besides Dtilt which I'll soon get into. Seconly, Dtilt, Rang and Up B are included as options. Dtilt will be included to say whether or not the spike hitbox will hit, or if only the non-spike hitbox will. If there is nothing next to it (or mentioning it) in parentheses, then you can land the spike hitbox just fine. On the other hand, I'll probably be up all night with this.

Spoiler

~In Order of The Roster~
: Dtilt
: Dtilt
: Dtilt
: Dtilt
: All options (too high for dtilt spike hitbox)
: Dtilt
: All options (too high for Dtilt spike hitbox)
: Dtilt
: All options (too high for dtilt spike hitbox)
: Dtilt (too low for dtilt spike hitbox)
: Dtilt
: Dtilt
: Dtilt
: Dtilt
: Dtilt
:Dtilt (spike hitbox doesn't reach)
: Dtilt
: Dtilt
: Dtilt
: Dtilt (spike hitbox barely reaches)
: Dtilt (spike hitbox doesn't reach)
: Dtilt
: Dtilt
/: Dtilt
: Dtilt (too high for spike hitbox), Rang (?)
: Dtilt
: Dtilt
: Dtilt (too high for spike hitbox), Rang (?)
: Dtilt
:Dtilt
: Dtilt (too high for spike hitbox)
: All options (too high for dtilt spike hitbox)
: Dtilt
: Dtilt, Rang
: Dtilt (spike hitbox doesn't reach)
: Dtilt
: Dtilt
: Dtilt
: Dtilt (too high for spike hitbox)
: Dtilt (too high for spike hitbox)
/: Dtilt
: Dtilt
: See Mario
: See Pit
: See Marth
: Dtilt (spike hitbox doesn't reach, wierd)
: Dtilt (spike hitbox barely reaches)
: Dtilt (spike hitbox doesn't reach)

And there you have it! All done. As you can see (and as previously mentioned), Dtilt works on everyone, and it's all I put for most of the roster as well. But because the spike hitbox doesn't hit everyone, I had decided to add it anyhow in order to tell whether the spike can or can not, in fact, land. I found this to be an important factor because the Dtilt meteor/spike is extremely effective at killing even at obscenely low %s. So successfuly landing one can really turn things around in a match, even when your opponent is a solid sock ahead of you. Also, it's pretty good to know that Link has 4-6 options to punish ledge grabs with. Anyways, I spent a lot of time with this. Hope you guys are happy lol. I'll fill in the 1st hit bair combo data sometime today. In the meantime, I'm hitting the hay.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok so I think it's about time we talk about some of the interesting things in Izaw's vid.

At around 8:35 he starts talking about throwing bombs at the wall to allow you to do Dair spikes much lower than normal. While it can be done on almost every legal stage (except for like kongo jungle 64 and Halberd as they have no side walls), imo the risk isn't worth it on stages that have multiple angles that are close together or curves on their sides because the slightest difference in the timing of your throw can mess everything up. I mean if you'd bet your life on hitting the absolute lip of the stage every time, then be my guest, but I won't be taking that risk. This limits its use to Lylat, Castle Siege trans 1, (honestly, while kind of risky, smashville is ok for some reason), Duck Hunt, and any omega version that likewise has non-curved sides.
The problem with dair spikes has always been the fact that if you use it below the horizontal line of the stage, you risk not being able to recover if you miss, so this certainly helps in that regard.
However, and this is a big however, there is a real risk of the opponent recovering earlier than you had anticipated and getting hit by the bomb before you can catch it, meaning that if you were committed to catching it with the dair, you will die. When used to spike an opponent, there will always be this risk as the opponent must be close enough to you in order to get spiked but not too close so that they don't set the bomb off before you can grab it. I'd advise that it be used on slower and more predictable recoveries only. (The same obviously goes for that tether + z-drop to Dair catch, which if you ask me is probably the better option anyway.)

So what do people think about the close range boomerang combos/chases at 12:10-13:35? It was only just recently that we decided not to take much notice of the whole 'boomerang to Fair combos at low percents' thing because of how punishable a close range boomerang is. But the way it's presented seems rather convincing I have to say. I remain sceptical at this stage though.

Ok, so the airdodge thing at 15:05 was definitely new to me. It turns out that if you SH and instantly airdodge, you can land laglessly so long as you throw a bomb in any direction, use a grounded Up-b, use a boomerang, use an arrow, or pull a bomb. I'm personally very interested in using this as an approach and as an escape option. I tried my best to think of different ways to use this, but all I could come up with was sliding off ledges while pulling a bomb throwing a rang or using grounded Up-B (which can turn it into an aerial Up-B). You can of course do a soft throw bomb out of it as well.

 

[Elessar]

I think that the bomb to the edge and the dair spike is not viable. We've known this was a strat ever since the demo came out (it's mentioned in blubba's guide under the AT section) and haven't been using it precisely because of this. It's flashy, and you'll get to pull it off vs bad people, but most (if not every) players worth their salt will get only punished by this once, even if they do at all. After that they'll adapt and recover high in he best case scenario, worst case scenario they'll punish you. It's an extremely telegraphed and risky move from every point of view. As every other risky move, I'd say this is one more option we need to keep in mind and practice if you want, but don't rely on it. It's needlessly flashy and risky and it's not worth it at all since one screw up, one variable coming out wrong can kill you. And again, it's extremely telegraphed, you have to commit to it by turning your back and being defenseless to an opponent who is literally coming right at you and is capable of doing everything. It's just not practical in real competitive gameplay at all. Sure, you can pull it off against people who are bad, but in a real tournament I can't see it working mroe than once.

I liked the close range boomerangs. In fact, I usually do them, as Kirin does as well. However, it has to be done smartly since if you do it at the wrong moment you will get punished hard. This is probably the best strat in his video and the one I can see working the best when done right.

I have to admit to already knowing about the autocanceling specials. The Link chat has known it since the early days of the 3DS (I think Blubba was the one who found out about it) and I think it was even mentioned here but I haven't been able to find it. This can be useful so get rid of the airdodge lag, though iirc you only get the lagless version if it's an empty short hop, so you won't lose the lag if you're landing on the stage after being juggled. I could be wrong though, so it's definitively worth labbing it.

Also, I remember someone saying that if you IASA an aerial after an airdodge you land with the aerials landing lag instead of the airdodge's. Worth a look as well.

All in all I'm grateful for the vid since it's a decent guide which contains info that people would have to (god forbid( read the stickies to find, but I don't think that it's complete (missing soft thrown bombs and bombsliding for instance) nor many of the strats showcased useful.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yeah I knew about the fact that the bombs bounce off walls and that you can then catch them with an aerial, but I didn't know that you could go that low with a Dair and still make it back. And hey, there's nothing wrong with a little bit of flash for friendlies.

Anyway, I'm going to start using more close up boomerangs in my game and see how that goes.

 

[Rizen]

Close up boomerangs aren't bad if you move backwards in the air.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Ok so I think it's about time we talk about some of the interesting things in Izaw's vid.

At around 8:35 he starts talking about throwing bombs at the wall to allow you to do Dair spikes much lower than normal. While it can be done on almost every legal stage (except for like kongo jungle 64 and Halberd as they have no side walls), imo the risk isn't worth it on stages that have multiple angles that are close together or curves on their sides because the slightest difference in the timing of your throw can mess everything up. I mean if you'd bet your life on hitting the absolute lip of the stage every time, then be my guest, but I won't be taking that risk. This limits its use to Lylat, Castle Siege trans 1, (honestly, while kind of risky, smashville is ok for some reason), Duck Hunt, and any omega version that likewise has non-curved sides.
The problem with dair spikes has always been the fact that if you use it below the horizontal line of the stage, you risk not being able to recover if you miss, so this certainly helps in that regard.
However, and this is a big however, there is a real risk of the opponent recovering earlier than you had anticipated and getting hit by the bomb before you can catch it, meaning that if you were committed to catching it with the dair, you will die. When used to spike an opponent, there will always be this risk as the opponent must be close enough to you in order to get spiked but not too close so that they don't set the bomb off before you can grab it. I'd advise that it be used on slower and more predictable recoveries only. (The same obviously goes for that tether + z-drop to Dair catch, which if you ask me is probably the better option anyway.)

So what do people think about the close range boomerang combos/chases at 12:10-13:35? It was only just recently that we decided not to take much notice of the whole 'boomerang to Fair combos at low percents' thing because of how punishable a close range boomerang is. But the way it's presented seems rather convincing I have to say. I remain sceptical at this stage though.

Ok, so the airdodge thing at 15:05 was definitely new to me. It turns out that if you SH and instantly airdodge, you can land laglessly so long as you throw a bomb in any direction, use a grounded Up-b, use a boomerang, use an arrow, or pull a bomb. I'm personally very interested in using this as an approach and as an escape option. I tried my best to think of different ways to use this, but all I could come up with was sliding off ledges while pulling a bomb throwing a rang or using grounded Up-B (which can turn it into an aerial Up-B). You can of course do a soft throw bomb out of it as well.

Huh? I thought low % gale rang > fair was always a thing. If anything, it's a staple of mine. I've been doing it since the 3DS version. Getting punished isn't really an issue unless you're at high-ish %. It's fine to go for it as long as both you and your opponent are at low percentage. Too high on the opponent's end and it won't work, obviously.

A lot of the stuff in the vid I've known about already. For example, 1st hit Bair combos and Dtilt spike data. Although he got some of the dtilt spike data wrong when he said that with some characters dtilt doesn't hit at all, when in reality Dtilt can hit everyone, just not the spike. I learned a few things from the bair combo part though (updating my previous post mentioning them). It's pretty funny how I put the same data as he did before he even uploaded the vid lol.

There's definitely some things I didn't know was possible before (tether swing) or just haven't thought of already (zairless bomb drop to instant aerial regrab and the JC glide toss to dair spike true combo). Overall, some things are a bit off, but it's still a really good vid with plenty of things to learn from. Izaw did a great job once again. Looking forward to any more vids about what he finds with Link.

 

[Dumbfire]

I've used the airdodge lag cancel with bomb throws but it was more of a gimmick. It's funny with up b when they don't put up their shields but obviously not very useful. I used it all the time with Bowser for Up Bs or Side Bs.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

There's definitely some things I didn't know was possible before (tether swing) or just haven't thought of already (zairless bomb drop to instant aerial regrab and the JC glide toss to dair spike true combo). Overall, some things are a bit off, but it's still a really good vid with plenty of things to learn from. Izaw did a great job once again. Looking forward to any more vids about what he finds with Link.

Yeah, see for my part I knew these things. It just goes to show that people generally knew their stuff, but that individually there were still a few gaps of knowledge that others could have filled in, so I think that it was a positive thing to just bring everyone up to scratch and on the same level.

The Toons have been interested in Zairless Z-drops recently. Basically, if you do an instant z-drop (I think the Link's termed this quick drop or something) such that the Zair doesn't come out, and you do it right on the opponent, the Bomb will of course explode instantly, and because the bomb blast doesn't hurt you and z-drops are lagless this allows you to do some interesting things. Connecting a footstool after the blast is of course easier because you can do it immediately unlike when you throw the bomb down (it's just that the set up for the footstool is easier by simply throwing it down). If you do an instant aerial to catch the bomb such that it is an IZAC, you can actually catch the bomb as it is exploding, causing a guaranteed phoenix bomb effect. But even just the idea of being able to put out a hitbox within like 1 frame of you leaving the ground that then combos into an aerial of your choice essentially means that so long as you are holding a bomb, you have 1 frame aerial, just with a very small hitbox. Now I personally believe that this is better for Toon because his Bomb will blow up when it hits the ground, meaning that if you weren't perfectly positioned inside the opponent you will still get a hitbox a moment later, but I figured you guys may as well know too.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Yeah, see for my part I knew these things. It just goes to show that people generally knew their stuff, but that individually there were still a few gaps of knowledge that others could have filled in, so I think that it was a positive thing to just bring everyone up to scratch and on the same level.

The Gays have been interested in Zairless Z-drops recently. Basically, if you do an instant z-drop (I think the Link's termed this quick drop or something) such that the Zair doesn't come out, and you do it right on the opponent, the Bomb will of course explode instantly, and because the bomb blast doesn't hurt you and z-drops are lagless this allows you to do some interesting things. Connecting a footstool after the blast is of course easier because you can do it immediately unlike when you throw the bomb down (it's just that the set up for the footstool is easier by simply throwing it down). If you do an instant aerial to catch the bomb such that it is an IZAC, you can actually catch the bomb as it is exploding, causing a guaranteed phoenix bomb effect. But even just the idea of being able to put out a hitbox within like 1 frame of you leaving the ground that then combos into an aerial of your choice essentially means that so long as you are holding a bomb, you have 1 frame aerial, just with a very small hitbox. Now I personally believe that this is better for Gay because his Bomb will blow up when it hits the ground, meaning that if you weren't perfectly positioned inside the opponent you will still get a hitbox a moment later, but I figured you guys may as well know too.

That sounds very interesting (definitely trying this out). Although I wish ninty would make zairless Z drop a bit easier. I can tell that this was done purposefully, but there's no reason why it should be that difficult. Also, I don't really see a whole lot of use from catching a zairless Z dropped bomb with Link besides the trick you mentioned. Especially when you could just do a normal Z drop close enough to the ground that Zair doesn't come out, and you're able to catch the bomb just as fast.

 

[Elessar]

Yeah, see for my part I knew these things. It just goes to show that people generally knew their stuff, but that individually there were still a few gaps of knowledge that others could have filled in, so I think that it was a positive thing to just bring everyone up to scratch and on the same level.

The Gays have been interested in Zairless Z-drops recently. Basically, if you do an instant z-drop (I think the Link's termed this quick drop or something) such that the Zair doesn't come out, and you do it right on the opponent, the Bomb will of course explode instantly, and because the bomb blast doesn't hurt you and z-drops are lagless this allows you to do some interesting things. Connecting a footstool after the blast is of course easier because you can do it immediately unlike when you throw the bomb down (it's just that the set up for the footstool is easier by simply throwing it down). If you do an instant aerial to catch the bomb such that it is an IZAC, you can actually catch the bomb as it is exploding, causing a guaranteed phoenix bomb effect. But even just the idea of being able to put out a hitbox within like 1 frame of you leaving the ground that then combos into an aerial of your choice essentially means that so long as you are holding a bomb, you have 1 frame aerial, just with a very small hitbox. Now I personally believe that this is better for Gay because his Bomb will blow up when it hits the ground, meaning that if you weren't perfectly positioned inside the opponent you will still get a hitbox a moment later, but I figured you guys may as well know too.

In theoy then, could you do the Quick drop on the opponent, do a phoenix bomb with a jump dodge which would result in a footstool, toss the phoenix bombs down and follow that either with another footstool or with a dairspike, going for a boule dair maybe?