Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

[A2ZOMG]

Did it only happen once? I said multiple times.

M2K, who is universally agreed to be the best player has lost multiple times to top players who don't main MK. Doesn't mean that MK is bad against those characters. M2K just sucks more at matchups outside of the ditto.

The real problem with matchup analysis these days is that there aren't many people who do video analysis well, as well as a lack of videos of people playing matchups well consistently.

 

[Rizen]

^This is getting off topic.

@Arizen, Link recovers just fine against F-air, B-air, and N-air if you DI the hits correctly at any rate. He recovers even better if you manage to be holding a Bomb while you get hit. Actually getting gimped is really situational.

Anything with the knock-back of Peach's weak turnips or greater can gimp Link. Link's entire recovery is DI and countering/avoiding interceptions because his actual recovery is so bad he can't take a hit. A smart Link should avoid most gimps but if he's launched sideways interceptions are a big concern. Link almost never dies off the side border, with some exceptions like CGs, but he can't reach the stage again with any interference.
Edit:

Link suffers more from light hits than strong ones actually, which is why Mario is good at edgeguarding Link. Light hits do not allow you to DI upwards as sharply in the majority of cases.

Okay, there's no point in further discussion.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Peach's Turnips gimp Link due to knockback angle largely and they also happen to be light hits. Link suffers more from light hits than strong ones actually, which is why Mario is good at edgeguarding Link. Light hits do not allow you to DI upwards as sharply in the majority of cases.

Bowser actually does have a fairly strong gimp tool in D-air (final hit is a weak spike), but it's never used because its priority is terrible and it's easy to see coming, and of course Bowser usually doesn't have the vertical recovery necessary to really practically edgeguard with it.

 

[Huggles828]

The last two pages

inb4 Link mains are a bunch of trolls

 

[Cassius.]

Holy **** this theorycrafting is ridiculous.

And I agree with Vex, all of this doesn't mean squat until you actually play in a tournament/competitive setting, which is why I want Kirin/Deva's input from the Link side, and any other Links who have played remotely good Bowsers (which don't exist outside of like 5 or 6). Vex, Zigsta and I have given input, and there are still about 2 Bowsers that could add to this from Bowser's perspective.

Even with your theorycrafting and analysis of what Bowsers can do, no one plays on this "optimal" level or whatever you call it. It really doesn't mean anything.

It's 5/5; we have enough reasoning behind it, and your ratio of 65:35 for Link is just outrageous.

Bowser actually does have a fairly strong gimp tool in D-air (final hit is a weak spike), but it's never used because its priority is terrible and it's easy to see coming, and of course Bowser usually doesn't have the vertical recovery necessary to really practically edgeguard with it.

Please stop. Please.

 

[IYM!]

Bowser actually does have a fairly strong gimp tool in D-air (final hit is a weak spike), but it's never used because its priority is terrible and it's easy to see coming, and of course Bowser usually doesn't have the vertical recovery necessary to really practically edgeguard with it.

this is true, i fought again a Bowser time ago, and, in a desesperate tryout, he did a Dair, the last part hit me, but wasnt enought to gimp me (i was at 40%)

OK, after see all this pages, i would say than is enough with Bowser. I hope than Red Ryu was joking about the ignore list and those stuff, i never seen so angry here in SWF, well, always comes a first time for all.

Red Ryu, sorry man, i hope than you dont add me in you ignore list for say that, but i am more of agreement with A2ZOMG than with you, but you has touched important points too.

Relax man, this only a discusion, dont take it so much personal


OK, i think than is time for discuse antother Character and give a MU ratio, after read all, and though about it .... i will say 55/45 Link favor.

PD: what mean troll or trolling?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Even with your theorycrafting and analysis of what Bowsers can do, no one plays on this "optimal" level or whatever you call it. It really doesn't mean anything.

It's 5/5; we have enough reasoning behind it, and your ratio of 65:35 for Link is just outrageous.

Bowser players are mostly playing the matchup optimally from what I can tell from videos. They're doing exactly what I expect them to, although sometimes I think people tend to DI badly against Link's KO moves, and that F-smash shouldn't be killing as early, while on the flip side, Link players should be landing a lot more D-airs in this matchup.

No, you guys don't have reasons that are better than theorycrafting. The reasons listed why the matchup are even are sketchy at best, especially since Vex refuses to actually help the Bowser boards explain how he does the matchup. Almost nobody has really precisely covered options to edgetrap and edgeguard until I brought it up (areas that are important for BOTH Link and Bowser, why have Bowser mains not touched edgetrapping before me?), and nobody really paid much attention to the videos that were in fact posted. A large percent of my points are uncountered and backed up by video evidence. The only things people really stated are that Bowser randomly approaches and might get grabs/Up-Bs here and there, while Link walls Bowser's approach effectively in most situations.

If you are going to accuse my reasons of being theorycraft, I highly suggest you not be a hypocrite. My reasons are not outrageous, since I am suggesting very simple things that are not hard to do (much easier to do than powershielding, which is expected from Bowser users) AND ACTUALLY HAVE BEEN DONE, and I cited videos to emphasize when they could be used. What makes anyone elses reasons better? Arguing that nobody plays at optimal level is not an argument, the point is players can improve and make better decisions, and Link players in specific can easily make much better decisions that can guarantee more massive reward in this matchup.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Do most people agree it's a 5/5?

 

[Drigo Toes]

Well... I know that i'm new guy here... but nobody take care of my opinion Dx

On-topic: I agree with 5-5 (or maybe 5.5-4.5 Link favor).

 

[IYM!]

Well... I know that i'm new guy here... but nobody take care of my opinion Dx

On-topic: I agree with 5-5 (or maybe 5.5-4.5 Link favor).

no compadre, toda opinion es escuchada .... bueno, leida XD

i think 55/45

 

[Huggles828]

I think 5/5 sounds good. I don't think you could say it's in Bowser's favor, but I don't think it's any more than a slight advantage for Link at best. I would probably say 55/45 Link, but I say we see what everyone else thinks ratio-wise, admire our finished chart, then decide what needs redoing.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well... I know that i'm new guy here... but nobody take care of my opinion Dx

On-topic: I agree with 5-5 (or maybe 5.5-4.5 Link favor).

Don't worry we were all new at one point.

 

[Rizen]

Do most people agree it's a 5/5?

Yes
10char...

 

[Huggles828]

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Scabe]

What a depressing chart.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I realllly have trouble seeing ROB v. Link being 70:30.

 

[Scabe]

Oh yeah, some of those are supah old and need re-discussion.

 

[Huggles828]

If I were my red-green colorblind ex-roommate, I would wonder how Link isn't SS tier, hahaha.

 

[Rizen]

I realllly have trouble seeing ROB v. Link being 70:30.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sheik is more like 55-45 or 60-40. There are many wrong numbers on that chart.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah I'm partly to blame for the Sheik one...I play Kennispam a lot and he wrecks me most of the time I play him, with Link or Lucario.

Anyways time to do one thing before we move on to redicussions, finish the exports!

The problem is I've fallen behind on this.

So I have the following ideas.

1. I work hard and spam the Link boards of Export threads.

2. People help me with exports, I would be very appreciative if people did this.

3. I drop the exports because they are outdated and start exports again only when we rediscuss the next match-ups.

This is up to you guys so if you want to do one of these options just let me know. So let me know and I'll move this from there.

Also Huggles, thanks for doing the MU chart.

 

[Huggles828]

I wouldn't mind helping, although I'm also fairly busy myself. I think we would need to see who we want to rediscuss first, then we could do the exports, then rediscuss, maybe. It'd be kinda silly to do an export on ROB if we're going to completely rediscuss him and half the information will be wrong (like threat level: Ostrich, haha).

 

[KenniSpam!]

Yeah I'm partly to blame for the Sheik one...I play Kennispam a lot and he wrecks me most of the time I play him, with Link or Lucario.

Anyways time to do one thing before we move on to redicussions, finish the exports!

The problem is I've fallen behind on this.

So I have the following ideas.

1. I work hard and spam the Link boards of Export threads.

2. People help me with exports, I would be very appreciative if people did this.

3. I drop the exports because they are outdated and start exports again only when we rediscuss the next match-ups.

This is up to you guys so if you want to do one of these options just let me know. So let me know and I'll move this from there.

Also Huggles, thanks for doing the MU chart.

dangit you know i namesearch all of my threads...

link is a bad character and no one should use him. sheik/link is 100:0

/end

 

[Scabe]

Yeah I'm partly to blame for the Sheik one...I play Kennispam a lot and he wrecks me most of the time I play him, with Link or Lucario.

Anyways time to do one thing before we move on to redicussions, finish the exports!

The problem is I've fallen behind on this.

So I have the following ideas.

1. I work hard and spam the Link boards of Export threads.

2. People help me with exports, I would be very appreciative if people did this.

3. I drop the exports because they are outdated and start exports again only when we rediscuss the next match-ups.

This is up to you guys so if you want to do one of these options just let me know. So let me know and I'll move this from there.

Also Huggles, thanks for doing the MU chart.

I agree with the Sheik one though, I really don't like that match-up.

This idea is completely different to yours but I like it: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283508

Exports are okay, but they'd be especially good if people talked in them at the moment they're pretty empty. You might be better off just putting them all into a thread so people can view. I think it would be better to discuss match-ups in the export.

 

[Huggles828]

One thing I was thinking of doing was when everything was finished up I could slice up the matchup chart and have it so that you could click the character and have it Link to each export. It'd be a pain to reassemble on the boards, but easily doable.

 

[IYM!]

export?, this is a single threat for one character, right? if that so... I thing than this would be a bad idea,

Of being like that, I do not believe that it is a very good idea.


But what if it can work, is that you make 3 exports periodically (every 2 weeks, every month for example) with a character in each one, of this form Link's board was not filling with these topics and we will not also waste space in prominent figures who do not matter for us.

i hope this help

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You know I like the export idea, I really do.

Alright I think we'll go with that idea, since it makes the exports a lot easier and links to discuss the MU are much easier.

I'll work on a new OP for a new Match-up thread.

So since people have a interest in characters that were discussed poorly I'll take suggestions.

Huggles I can separate the image and readjust it on a new MU thread, it will take a while to do but I'd have no problem doing that part.

dangit you know i namesearch all of my threads...

link is a bad character and no one should use him. sheik/link is 100:0

/end

I take this as a challenge...but I'm going to save my money until I improve some more.

Also Kennispam name search lol.

 

[X3DS]

Is the Link matchup chart on smash wiki wrong? It has Link at a 45-50 matchup with Marth and a 50-50 matchup with Snake.

This can't be right. Marth is 40-60 at best considering if Link goes off stage Marth can spike him easily. Snake is 45-50 or even 40-60 considering he beats Link up close with tilts, goes even at a range, and can outlive Link at high percents. No way that is even.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Is the Link matchup chart on smash wiki wrong? It has Link at a 45-50 matchup with Marth and a 50-50 matchup with Snake.

This can't be right. Marth is 40-60 at best considering if Link goes off stage Marth can spike him easily. Snake is 45-50 or even 40-60 considering he beats Link up close with tilts, goes even at a range, and can outlive Link at high percents. No way that is even.

The Wiki is kinda questionable to be trusted...anyone can edit it so many MU's get ratio's changed to numbers that some people do question it's legitimacy.

 

[Huggles828]

Is the Link matchup chart on smash wiki wrong? It has Link at a 45-50 matchup with Marth and a 50-50 matchup with Snake.

This can't be right. Marth is 40-60 at best considering if Link goes off stage Marth can spike him easily. Snake is 45-50 or even 40-60 considering he beats Link up close with tilts, goes even at a range, and can outlive Link at high percents. No way that is even.

Haha, wow, I just took a look at it. Those are some VERY optimistic numbers for Link. He'd deserve to be mid tier if those numbers were accurate. He's got a solid advantage against almost every low tier and a few mid/ high tiers according to that.

So who wins the other 5% of the time against Snake? Meta Knight?

 

[Rizen]

I agree with everything except the Sheik MU. Linking exports is a good idea.

Maybe we should include a wifi section. Some #s change with the different wifi metagame. For example, Sonic and Ike get major boosts, while C Falcon has a slight disadvantage in my opinion.

There's been so many discussions about MUs all over that I'm burnt out. I'll do what I can.

 

[KenniSpam!]

Everyone should drop link for toon link. He's better in every way.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Everyone should drop link for toon link. He's better in every way.

Kennispam name search.

~

Anyways I'll start working on a new OP.

 

[Scabe]

I think this thread should be remade.

With the way it is now, it makes it hard to locate where all the posts were for a specific character. There have been requests where people would ask "Can I see your discussion on *Insert Character*" The only way you would see this is by using the search function in the thread.

But that's not the only problem. The other problem is that once the discussions get closed off, there's no way of going back to the character to talk about it.

Which is why I like this idea: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283508

You actually talk in the match-ups exports, while the main thread is an index linking to all the discussion that are up.

 

[Huggles828]

Blah blah blah DK Tie MU Index

Oh, quiet Scabe. Everyone know you just like that because DK's ties are fashionable. :D

Honestly, though, that might be a good idea. Or we could just continue the discussions in the exports from here on out, and link to whichever page the discussion is on in this thread.

Everyone should drop link for toon link. He's better in every way.

Except the part where Gay is incredibly toon link and Link is freaking Link.

And honestly, I've been playing Link so long, when I random Gay I just can't play him because my timing is thrown off and things like dair always gets me killed.

When I namesearch all I get is every ROB boards thread ever, haha. And maybe a few Link board threads too.

 

[KenniSpam!]

Everyone should drop link for toon link. He's better in every way.

Why did I get infracted for this?? It's not even my opinion, it's a provable fact!!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why did I get infracted for this?? It's not even my opinion, it's a provable fact!!

Link can kill earlier, has a longer zair and has better bombs/set-ups with bombs. :/

TL is a better character of course, when you consider everything else he has but he doesn't outclass Link in everything.

 

[Scabe]

You got infracted KenniSpam, because all you've been doing is posting off topic in this thread. 1st time I let you get away with, 2nd time I just got fed up. So please, just don't do it again man.

 

[KenniSpam!]

You should see poopchat.

Edit: It's all your fault for luring me into this thread, Justin.

Random link matchup BS so I don't get infracted:

Dearest Link Boards:
What is your opinion on the Samus matchup? Is Link able to outcamp her?
Not-so-sincerely,
~Kennispam

 

[Huggles828]

Ha, that edit is kinda asking for another infraction. The Toon Link post was really trolling, as was that last post. You even say yourself you're not trying to accomplish anything ("not-so-sincerely"). Plus, it's not really even on-topic, since we're talking about something else.

I can help with a couple of the Exports. Just tell me what y'all want me to do and I'll help. I'd prefer to do ones that I've at least been around for, haha.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You should see poopchat.

Edit: It's all your fault for luring me into this thread, Justin.

Random link matchup BS so I don't get infracted:

Dearest Link Boards:
What is your opinion on the Samus matchup? Is Link able to outcamp her?
Not-so-sincerely,
~Kennispam

Mission complete, Kennispam.

Ok being serious here, I think Link can outcamp her depending on the stage. It feels like Snake where who outcamps who can change based on the situation and stage.

This is my thought after playing against Sago's Samus. I think it's even when played right, however Legan and Xyro both think Samus wins because of her offstage game and projectiles.

I agree with off stage, but not so much on stage or projectile wise, but this is my take on it from experience.

Anyways I'll get a new OP going with exports for discussion instead of in the thread.