Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

[A2ZOMG]

They both suck. I just think Link easily counters Bowser, and given that Deva definitely could have picked better options and that Zigsta was basically working his *** off (his missed grab release combos aren't as big of a deal as you might be suggesting), it's hard for me to call this matchup even.

He spaces better, has FAR better juggles that can legitimately option limit Bowser's landing, and edgeguards Bowser much better than the other way around. Free D-air on Bowser's recovery is much easier and more effective than anything Bowser has on Link's recovery, since everything Bowser has on Link's recovery just LOSES to projectiles. You just stay at Bowser's vertical level, and you have all of his recovery options covered since he has basically ZERO VERTICAL MIXUP on his recovery. Bowser has to go through a lot of trouble to get a grab, while Link basically gets started off of almost any hit and racks damage stupidly fast. Furthermore, Bowser's ledge game is worse than Link's, should he actually make it to the ledge, since most of the time he actually has no business landing on stage.

And if you're missing edgeguards and edgetraps on Bowser, you're doing it completely wrong. It doesn't matter what Bowser does. Just hit him. He lacks to tools to mixup his momentum and protect himself, and his edge options are the worst in the game past 100%. There is no other recovery nearly as bad as this, except for Ivysaur's basically. Everyone makes it back to the stage just fine with good DI. The question is how much vertical mixup you have, and what other tools you have to defend yourself.

Basically the risk/reward for both characters goes like this.

Bowser: high risk/moderate reward
Link: low to moderate risk/high to moderate reward

Link is much less risky and much more rewarding in this matchup when his tools are used correctly. Bowser really shouldn't be gimping Link. His options for edgeguarding Link are awful, and you can DI his D-tilt easily (the angle is not low, it's angle 361 like the majority of attacks in this game and the first KO on Deva in the 2nd match was BS). And generally Bowser has to work his *** off against Link's 2 hit Z-air and low lag projectiles hoping he'll tap Link with the occasional Up-B or his very punishable grab options. Link on the other hand gets huge damage from juggling and comboing Bowser, and he option limits Bowser extremely hard offstage and can land easy D-airs. Link can also actually afford to throw out a lot more grabs in this matchup than normal since Bowser jumping is almost always a bad idea in neutral position, and his dodges are godawful. Up toss Bombs also counter grab release shenanigans (not saying it will always happen, but it's a very applicable option).

Honestly what is Bowser going to do against D-air edgeguard? He's by far the worst character in the game at avoiding it. And it's simply appalling that Deva didn't try for it more.

 

[Rizen]

Dair isnt agood move for DI, Fair are better, but is slow and Bair is good(not as good as Fair) and is fast, die with a sideB in 150%, was ridiculous, Link had teh oportunity to survive.

There's a huge, long, long controversy about which is the best momentum canceler for Link. I say the best options are: bomb throw if Link's holding one, down throw activates fastfalling dynamics like Dair, or Back throw>Bair catch are the best since it's the quickest air move Link has and doesn't count as a special move. Dair for vertical recoveries because the instant fastfall and Bair for horizontal because it's fastest and no one's actually proven Fair has affects Bair doesn't. But this isn't the thread for it.

Your giving Link way too much credit, and Bowser not enough.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Spamming dair? You don't spam that move, period. In the words of a wise Link main I knew, it's a kill move not a toy. The move works if you read an airdodge, ledge jump, get up attack, or if they are trying to attack from below. Bowser isn't going to attempt from below unless he knows he can outspace Link's dair, and I'm doubting they will attempt this since messing up means getting hit by Link's best kill move.

VERY true. Dairs need to be well thought out. If not and Link isn't incredibly lucky he's in for major punishment. (Believe me, I know ).

I agree with Red Ryu on other points too.
------------------------
Something to note is: from underneath Link's Uair will beat every attack Bowser has and outlasts airdodges.
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This has wifail and I'm obviously not the best Link. But I'm posting it to show how easy it is for even me to DI attacks like firebreath especially at 1:20 or 2:40. DI is, as always, very important for Link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkuiODiErP8

 

[A2ZOMG]

Uh, I fail to see how I'm giving Link way too much credit, when in fact for every match that has been posted of this matchup, I've been very critical about Bowser players not surviving hits that they could have survived easily. I'm pointing out things that are not exactly hard to do that people simply don't do enough of. These are things I do anyway when I play this matchup, and the way I see it Bowser gets ***** if you're good at followups and can start them safely.

And people should edgeguard more like you do Arizen. It appalls me that Deva and Izaw don't have any good videos of them performing D-air edgeguards on the EASIEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME TO CONSISTENTLY EDGEGUARD.

Take how good Deva was at juggling, and his better moments of spacing, not to mention how long Deva survives each stock, which makes the matchup 55/45 Link. Let's then assume that he learns he's able to edgeguard like Arizen does, and Bowser's horrible recovery worsens his matchups by about 10 points since it's a source of guaranteed KOs and huge damage (he can't juggle or edgeguard Link nearly as consistently, so it's a legitimate advantage for Link). Instant 65/35 matchup in Link's favor.

Link doesn't get juggled or edgeguarded nearly as hard as Bowser does. Bowser just gets flat out ***** by every pro tactic in the game once he loses control. If you're good at juggling, and actually have a brain when edgeguarding and realize that landing your strongest move on him offstage is very easy, Bowser loses plain and simple if you can set up those openings safely, which Link can do.

 

[B!squick]

Besides, if you squint, Bowser kinda looks like a Dodongo.

EDIT: Just watched the wifi video. I lol'd.

 

[Cassius.]

Nice. So a Bowser abuses fire and...what?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Uh, I fail to see how I'm giving Link way too much credit, when in fact for every match that has been posted of this matchup, I've been very critical about Bowser players not surviving hits that they could have survived easily. I'm pointing out things that are not exactly hard to do that people simply don't do enough of. These are things I do anyway when I play this matchup, and the way I see it Bowser gets ***** if you're good at followups and can start them safely.

You ****** Bowsers who don't know the Match-up or how to recover means nothing.

Also most of Link's follow-ups aren't so good since most of them put him at risk, but they have a good suprise factor so he does have options, but it's no where near as good when messing up = a grab/other nasty things.

And people should edgeguard more like you do Arizen. It appalls me that Deva and Izaw don't have any good videos of them performing D-air edgeguards on the EASIEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME TO CONSISTENTLY EDGEGUARD.

Both characters recovery are bad. You can dair Bowser when he is coming back, just like he can Fair Link when he is coming back. Bowser is not the easiest to edge guard consistently, even more so if the Bowser knows how to DI up.

Take how good Deva was at juggling, and his better moments of spacing, not to mention how long Deva survives each stock, which makes the matchup 55/45 Link. Let's then assume that he learns he's able to edgeguard like Arizen does, and Bowser's horrible recovery worsens his matchups by about 10 points since it's a source of guaranteed KOs and huge damage (he can't juggle or edgeguard Link nearly as consistently, so it's a legitimate advantage for Link). Instant 65/35 matchup in Link's favor.

Wow, talk about theorycraft.

Ok Link can live long due to his momentum cancel, he's not living that much longer than Bowser should be living. Link can protect himself while recovering, Bowser has a better edge guard game, seriously he does. Bowser's recovery has littler vertical height but good horizontal, Link's gives him little horizontal and ok vertical, Link's is based mostly on momentum. Link can dair edgeguard...Bowser can fair him off some stages and gimp him.

Link doesn't get juggled or edgeguarded nearly as hard as Bowser does. Bowser just gets flat out ***** by every pro tactic in the game once he loses control. If you're good at juggling, and actually have a brain when edgeguarding and realize that landing your strongest move on him offstage is very easy, Bowser loses plain and simple if you can set up those openings safely, which Link can do.

Link can protect himself better, but Bowser's punish and juggle game is better as long as he doesn't, "Gee maybe I should run into Link's dair, I could get at him from the sides or bait his dair to land with the super long landing lag, but nah I think I'll run head first into it."

We can land Dair on Bowser while edge guarding, but it doesn't help when Boser can grab the ledge or isn't forced to UpB.

 

[Cassius.]

I mean to be quite honest with you, not every single situation offstage demands that Bowser Up-B to the ledge. There are a variety of ways we can come back, such as with Klaw if the edgeguarding isn't perfect, Bowser Bomb if the Bowser DI's up and doesn't want to face a penalty for landing onstage in a ****ty manner...

Up-B isn't the only way to do things. And this theorycrafting is ridiculous.

5/5, right?

I would love to say that Bowser's punish game on Link isn't anything to shrug off;

Spoiler

pulling an A2Z right now

let's just assume every "punish" is a grab. What then? At low percents, it'll be a chance to rack up damage, and a lot of it. Remember when I said earlier that we'll assume the Bowser player's grab release knowledge and reaction time are decent enough to get 2-3 regrabs? That's easily around or even over 30% damage from the regrabs including the ending with a fresh klaw which is basically 20% (~18 exactly fresh.) At high percents, it'll most likely be an opportunity to place Link at the ledge or even offstage, hell, even a kill.

The point is, you're getting a lot of damage for each grab. I'm not trying to say that Links will make it easy for us to grab them, but, like in the majority of matchups where Bowser is walled by camping, when/if Bowser gets the grab, he will make the most of it, and I can assure you that.

Yes, Link will probably catch up with bombs and boomerangs and things like that, but it's not like Bowser is completely outclassed in the damage department. There's something called powershielding, and it's not the best option of getting through things, but it does its work.

Spoiler

where is kirin when you need him

 

[Huggles828]

I'm also kinda leaning toward roughly even, although I think it might be slight Link advantage. If we're gonna say that Link can easily just dair Bowser, you can't not say that Bowser (or anyone for that matter) can just hit Link offstage and watch him fall to his death. By playing Link, I know that one of his weaknesses is his recovery, so I'm going to pull every punch I can to make it back onstage, be as unpredictable as I can, and make the most of what I do have (projectiles, tether, etc.); I know my weaknesses and try to work around them. To say Bowser isn't going to do the same thing, since his recovery is also not spectacular, is kinda silly.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bowser has projectiles to respect when edgeguarding Link which he doesn't have very good answers for especially since he's a ridiculously huge target, and he has very few answers that really reliably cover the low recovery besides edgehog -> punish on stage I guess. Either way Bowser is not actually all that threatening to Link offstage since his low edgeguards suck. The biggest threat Bowser has on Link is edgetrapping actually, but only because of his high damage and knockback on some moves, and in terms of being able to cover options consistently, he's not all that special (especially since the option of Smash out of shield doesn't work for him very well). It's definitely not simple by any means for Bowser to aerial Link offstage.

Whether Bowser recovers high or low, it doesn't matter if you have good reaction time. You just hit him since he can't airdodge (Link actually will have opportunities to airdodge offstage if neccessary just because his airdodge is much less laggy than Bowsers, and can be canceled into Z-air). EVEN IF HE MAKES IT TO THE LEDGE his options for getting up are still extremely horrible and should be punished hard. And you still get to hit him if he's landing on stage no matter what. D-air covers both mid level and low recoveries almost flawlessly when spaced well. I don't particularly care if Bowser somehow recovers higher than that, because you can just juggle him for massive damage.

D-air on Bowser's recovery or ledge options >>>> Anything Bowser has on Link's recovery. Easier, more consistent, and more rewarding. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT BOWSER DOES. You can feasibly react to it and punish him ridiculously hard. Bowser on the other hand has a lot of gay stuff he has to work around in order to actually edgeguard Link, and usually he can't actually stop Link from making it to the edge safely. His edgetraps are okay, but Link's on Bowser's are better thanks to D-air alone and due to Bowser just having the most godawful edge options.

The argument that Bowser can F-air Link offstage is nowhere remotely related to the argument Link can D-air Bowser offstage. Bowser has to actually guess his way around and punish a SPECIFIC form of poor choices on Link's part (like extremely bad use of midair jump or projectiles in places where they OBVIOUSLY don't work) to actually aerial Link. In Link's case, he just needs to react and space it well to cover most of Bowser's options. Huge difference. Plus Bowser is pretty much relying on bad DI from Link. Link doesn't need bad DI from Bowser to still have an easy time edgeguarding and killing him.

I mean sure, everyone likes pulling the argument that everyone has universal options. Bowser unlike Link actually lacks certain universal options when he loses control. He can't airdodge offstage (get edgehogged or ***** anyway if you do), his vertical mixup is blatantly non-existant, he option to land on stage safely is non-existent, and he telegraphs EVERYTHING on the ledge. A little bit less so when he's under 100%, but he gets comboed easily so that doesn't last very long. Some characters may lack one or two of those universal options. Bowser is the one character who lacks ALL OF THEM AT THE SAME TIME.

Nobody good cares how far you can recover horizontally. No character in this game has trouble recovering horizontally when they DI, which ALL GOOD PLAYERS DO (Good DI is always assumed when I suggest what edgeguards work). Bowser literally has nothing else to do after DIing besides hoping you have bad reaction time.

 

[Fuujin]

Limit whachu talkin bout bowser sucks

 

[HeroMystic]

Spoiler

where is kirin when you need him

[/COLOR]

Kirin the new Legan now?

 

[Cassius.]

Limit whachu talkin bout bowser sucks

:\ You have an SWF account?

Kirin the new Legan now?

Well I mean it in the sense that he played Vex, KingKong and myself with Link, so...I'm sure he knows a lot more about this MU than a majority of you guys (barring Izaw who played Ixis and Deva who played Ziggy but isn't posting here...)

I could be wrong, maybe you guys do play Bowsers but I'd like to hear input from him, especially since Vex said he and Kirin agreed to 5/5..

And I played his Mario too. :>

 

[A2ZOMG]

To me it seems the only argument is how much reward Link and Bowser get for landing hits, since it's generally agreed that Link controls the pace better, but Bowser sometimes randomly gets in working his *** off powershielding (made difficult partly since Z-air is two hits). And as I stated earlier, I believe the extent to which Bowser gets punished for getting knocked off his feet is significantly greater than anything Link suffers due to how easy it is to safely option limit Bowser into your most powerful KO move. Getting a grab for Bowser kinda can even the score, except it's much harder for Bowser to grab Link than it is for Link to space a Z-air and start combos/juggles after hitting with it, and Link's combos and juggles do LOTS of damage.

 

[HeroMystic]

Well I mean it in the sense that he played Vex, KingKong and myself with Link, so...I'm sure he knows a lot more about this MU than a majority of you guys (barring Izaw who played Ixis and Deva who played Ziggy but isn't posting here...)

I could be wrong, maybe you guys do play Bowsers but I'd like to hear input from him, especially since Vex said he and Kirin agreed to 5/5..

And I played his Mario too. :>

I'm just teasing. It's good that Kirin is so famous/popular/awesome that everyone wants his opinion now. I just remember the times when Kirin was just a plain 'ol Mario/Link main.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Well ****, according to A2Z, Snake gets ***** by TL, hardcore, cause Snake can't hit TL easily at all.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There is a huge difference between Snake vs TL and Bowser vs Link:

TL's reward for hitting Snake is muuuuuch smaller than Link's reward for hitting Bowser. Snake doesn't get juggled or edgeguarded nearly to the extent Bowser does in general. So no, your logic of matchup relevance doesn't apply here.

Toon Link and Link can be both considered semi-durable characters who can kinda space and DI their way into surviving reasonably long in most matchups despite being slightly easy to combo (TL runs away a bit better, Link has greater weight and momentum cancel abilities). Snake is a durable character who isn't always straightforward to juggle or edgeguard when played correctly which actually lets his weight class be useful.

Bowser is NOT a durable character in any sense of the word except the displayed percent he dies at directly compared to other characters. But he takes damage very quickly when he gets punished. And unlike Snake, he can be consistently punished with your strongest KO move in almost every matchup. Or alternatively, you're usually free to rack on an extra 60% on him for getting him offstage since his recovery is extremely bad and punishable and horrible at getting him back into neutral position.

My reason why Bowser gets ***** by Link isn't really focused on not being able to hit Link (powershielding goes a long way against both Link and TL if you do it right, I mean hell, look at the videos of every good Bowser vs Link. They get in sometimes, the only thing blatantly wrong with the matches is that Link players choose suboptimal punish options). It's focused on getting punished MUCH harder when he is open since Bowser's escape and positional reset options are the worst in the game. And he's also open more than Link since Bowser has much less safe spacing than Link.

Bowser only gets consistent high reward if he lands a grab (with the assumption a skilled Bowser does followups correctly). But landing a grab isn't something he can just rely on since he doesn't have good grab range and his grab is almost tether class punishable on whiff (punish on reaction with a Smash basically when it whiffs). Link on the other hand has opportunities to get high reward off basically every hit. If it puts Bowser above him or offstage, there is virtually always an option to keep Bowser there that will do great damage, and whether Bowser recovers high or low or makes it to the ledge, he is never safe from Link's D-air or anything Link deems fit to juggle Bowser with, while Link is usually safe from most of Bowser's edgeguards by simply tossing the Boomerang. Well getting up from the edge is kinda a pain, but Bowser has it worse against Link by far.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Bowser has projectiles to respect when edgeguarding Link which he doesn't have very good answers for especially since he's a ridiculously huge target, and he has very few answers that really reliably cover the low recovery besides edgehog -> punish on stage I guess. Either way Bowser is not actually all that threatening to Link offstage since his low edgeguards suck. The biggest threat Bowser has on Link is edgetrapping actually, but only because of his high damage and knockback on some moves, and in terms of being able to cover options consistently, he's not all that special (especially since the option of Smash out of shield doesn't work for him very well). It's definitely not simple by any means for Bowser to aerial Link offstage.

Never said it was a walk in the park to edge guard either, but Bowser's edge guarding > Link's.

You also forgot to mention how Link has the 5th worst horizontal air speed in the game. Bowser is way more maneuverable in the air compared to Link.

Whether Bowser recovers high or low, it doesn't matter if you have good reaction time. You just hit him since he can't airdodge (Link actually will have opportunities to airdodge offstage if neccessary just because his airdodge is much less laggy than Bowsers, and can be canceled into Z-air). EVEN IF HE MAKES IT TO THE LEDGE his options for getting up are still extremely horrible and should be punished hard. And you still get to hit him if he's landing on stage no matter what. D-air covers both mid level and low recoveries almost flawlessly when spaced well. I don't particularly care if Bowser somehow recovers higher than that, because you can just juggle him for massive damage.

Link has to be very very careful when he airdodges, because he's going to fall down when he does, which is very very bad when you consider his recovery.

Bowser can afford to airdodge much more easily because his air speed doesn't suck and he doesn't fall like a brick.

Dair edgeguarding also is risky in itself if you don't hit them, even when Link slow falls he's putting himself at risk if he screws up. Oh yeah and if Bowser saves his second jump he can jump back and Claw Link or even jump + airdodge

Dair isn't an all around answer to him recovering, stop pretending it is.

D-air on Bowser's recovery or ledge options >>>> Anything Bowser has on Link's recovery. Easier, more consistent, and more rewarding. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT BOWSER DOES. You can feasibly react to it and punish him ridiculously hard. Bowser on the other hand has a lot of gay stuff he has to work around in order to actually edgeguard Link, and usually he can't actually stop Link from making it to the edge safely. His edgetraps are okay, but Link's on Bowser's are better thanks to D-air alone and due to Bowser just having the most godawful edge options.

No it isn't. Dair doesn't solve everything, even more so with the air speed + second jump I just mentioned before.

Link can play keep away, and he can protect himself a little better then Bowser can while recovering.

Bowser may have a few problems on the edge, may being a key word since I'm not entirely well versed in that, but what can Link do? Ledge hop fair? Bowser can shield and punish if he's close enough. Ledge hop dair? same as the Fair. Jump? Bowser can fair or uair or Claw Link. Roll? Link's roll is bad Bowser can follow and punish. Get-up attack? Shield and punish. Bomb? Ok but if Link didn't have a bomb already he made it pretty obvious what he's thinking of doing.

Link has options, but eh, Bowser can cover half of them with his shield and the others just need to be read/reacted to.

The argument that Bowser can F-air Link offstage is nowhere remotely related to the argument Link can D-air Bowser offstage. Bowser has to actually guess his way around and punish a SPECIFIC form of poor choices on Link's part (like extremely bad use of midair jump or projectiles in places where they OBVIOUSLY don't work) to actually aerial Link. In Link's case, he just needs to react and space it well to cover most of Bowser's options. Huge difference. Plus Bowser is pretty much relying on bad DI from Link. Link doesn't need bad DI from Bowser to still have an easy time edgeguarding and killing him.

Your right, We should use a moves that pretty easy to get around and lasts for 80 frames to edge guard people, granted it does 22% on the strong hit and 18% on the weak so I'll give you that much so I'll give that much for credit.

Also Dair isn't going to kill Bowser early unless he hit him with the early parts of the move, which surprise, isn't going to happen is your trying to cover him coming across.

I mean sure, everyone likes pulling the argument that everyone has universal options. Bowser unlike Link actually lacks certain universal options when he loses control. He can't airdodge offstage (get edgehogged or ***** anyway if you do), his vertical mixup is blatantly non-existant, he option to land on stage safely is non-existent, and he telegraphs EVERYTHING on the ledge. A little bit less so when he's under 100%, but he gets comboed easily so that doesn't last very long. Some characters may lack one or two of those universal options. Bowser is the one character who lacks ALL OF THEM AT THE SAME TIME.

The is completely reversed, Link has trouble using an airdodge because of the problems he has in the air I keep illustrating. Sure he can protect himself with projectiles and aerials, something he has over Bowser, but it doesn't help when he can't risk going too far with an edge guard from the stage.

Bowser has vertical problems, Link doesn't have a move that can take advantage of this heavily. You can try and catch him as he is trying to cross Link onto the stage but despite his size he can very well Fair Link and air dodge past him if need be because of his air speed.

Nobody good cares how far you can recover horizontally. No character in this game has trouble recovering horizontally when they DI, which ALL GOOD PLAYERS DO (Good DI is always assumed when I suggest what edgeguards work). Bowser literally has nothing else to do after DIing besides hoping you have bad reaction time.

Your right, having good horizontal air movement compared to the 5th worst in the game with fast falling speed means nothing at all.

There is a huge difference between Snake vs TL and Bowser vs Link:

TL's reward for hitting Snake is muuuuuch smaller than Link's reward for hitting Bowser. Snake doesn't get juggled or edgeguarded nearly to the extent Bowser does in general. So no, your logic of matchup relevance doesn't apply here.

He's attacking your credibility.

Like when you said Ike vs Captain Falcon was 55:45
or when you said Mr. Game and Watch could live til 180% against Link
or when you said Sonic had better KO power than Link
or when you said Mario's Fsmash had more range than Lucario's Fsmash, he gets reach because of his shutter step the move itself doesn't have more range.
or when you said Jigglypuff>Wario.

I can find more if need be.

Toon Link and Link can be both considered semi-durable characters who can kinda space and DI their way into surviving reasonably long in most matchups despite being slightly easy to combo (TL runs away a bit better, Link has greater weight and momentum cancel abilities). Snake is a durable character who isn't always straightforward to juggle or edgeguard when played correctly which actually lets his weight class be useful.

Gee, sounds like what Bowser and Link can kinda do to each other.

Bowser is NOT a durable character in any sense of the word except the displayed percent he dies at directly compared to other characters. But he takes damage very quickly when he gets punished. And unlike Snake, he can be consistently punished with your strongest KO move in almost every matchup. Or alternatively, you're usually free to rack on an extra 60% on him for getting him offstage since his recovery is extremely bad and punishable and horrible at getting him back into neutral position.

So Snake > Bowser...your point?

Yeah Bowser's recovery sucks, it's not nearly as bad as how your making it out to be. He can reasonably recovery without his UpB, Link needs his usually. Link can't get too ballzy with his edge guarding because he has very little to help himself get back.

My reason why Bowser gets ***** by Link isn't really focused on not being able to hit Link (powershielding goes a long way against both Link and TL if you do it right, I mean hell, look at the videos of every good Bowser vs Link. They get in sometimes, the only thing blatantly wrong with the matches is that Link players choose suboptimal punish options). It's focused on getting punished MUCH harder when he is open since Bowser's escape and positional reset options are the worst in the game. And he's also open more than Link since Bowser has much less safe spacing than Link.

Link's ground options are not safe on block, he needs to space and mix-up his attacks because his ground attacks are - on block, most of which are in the double digits in frame disadvantage. Link is going to mix-up his jab and ground moves because none of them are safe.

His aerials and projectiles are safe...kinda. Fair, Nair, and Bair if used right can be safe, same with his projectiles. Arrows, boomerang and bombs are not safe up close, Bowser can shield walk up and hit/grab Link after shielding many of these moves. Link isn't that good on the ground up close when you consider how unsafe his moves can be.

Zair is annoying for Bowser I'll give you that.

Bowser only gets consistent high reward if he lands a grab (with the assumption a skilled Bowser does followups correctly). But landing a grab isn't something he can just rely on since he doesn't have good grab range and his grab is almost tether class punishable on whiff (punish on reaction with a Smash basically when it whiffs). Link on the other hand has opportunities to get high reward off basically every hit. If it puts Bowser above him or offstage, there is virtually always an option to keep Bowser there that will do great damage, and whether Bowser recovers high or low or makes it to the ledge, he is never safe from Link's D-air or anything Link deems fit to juggle Bowser with, while Link is usually safe from most of Bowser's edgeguards by simply tossing the Boomerang. Well getting up from the edge is kinda a pain, but Bowser has it worse against Link by far.

Link has an option to keep juggles going and camp...shame Bowser also has a counter option to get around it if he knows what to do. Both characters have rewards and risks, your blowing Link's way to high and deflating Bowser's way too much.

Not commenting on recovery because I stressed why this is wrong multiple times.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Never said it was a walk in the park to edge guard either, but Bowser's edge guarding > Link's.

Bowser's low edgeguards are some of the worst in the game. He can't actually edgeguard Link's Up-B safely at all, since his vertical recovery is balls.

You also forgot to mention how Link has the 5th worst horizontal air speed in the game. Bowser is way more maneuverable in the air compared to Link.

Horizontal top airspeed is the LEAST IMPORTANT VALUE when recovering.

Neither character changes directions in the air easily horizontally, and nobody cares about your airspeed anyway since all characters approach the stage fundamentally when recovering and can make it back consistently with good DI (even Link can have the option of landing on stage without needing Up-B as long as your DI is solid).

The most important factors are options that require your opponent to respond from different vertical positions, which Bowser basically has nothing to answer with besides midair jump, which is easily option limited anyway since his airdodge and priority are terrible.

Link's vertical recovery actually exists, unlike Bowsers, so his low recovery doesn't have to be ultra telegraphed all the time. And he has priority in projectiles.

Link has to be very very careful when he airdodges, because he's going to fall down when he does, which is very very bad when you consider his recovery.

Bowser can afford to airdodge much more easily because his air speed doesn't suck and he doesn't fall like a brick.

Bowser from what I recall falls FURTHER than Link if Link isn't fastfalling since his airdodge duration is much longer than Link's. Plus he doesn't have the option of tether canceling, which is situationaly useful.

Dair edgeguarding also is risky in itself if you don't hit them, even when Link slow falls he's putting himself at risk if he screws up. Oh yeah and if Bowser saves his second jump he can jump back and Claw Link or even jump + airdodge

Jump + airdodge is useless, since Bowser's airdodge is crap for avoiding anything offstage. Klaw is too slow and doesn't protect Bowser's head, which is where you're actually supposed to hit Bowser. N-air edgeguard option limits this easily as well and still keeps Bowser offstage. I suggest you just simply learn better spacing when edgeguarding.

Dair isn't an all around answer to him recovering, stop pretending it is.

Stop pretending Bowser edgeguards Link more easily. It's the other way around.

No it isn't. Dair doesn't solve everything, even more so with the air speed + second jump I just mentioned before.

Those options aren't even hard to cover. Bowser really can't answer you if you first hit him out of jump with N-air, and you still have time to edgeguard him after that connects. Bower's only real option to avoid getting mindlessly offstage ***** is recovering stupidly high, which unfortunately is still an extremely bad option since he's open to juggles.

Bowser may have a few problems on the edge, may being a key word since I'm not entirely well versed in that, but what can Link do? Ledge hop fair? Bowser can shield and punish if he's close enough. Ledge hop dair? same as the Fair. Jump? Bowser can fair or uair or Claw Link. Roll? Link's roll is bad Bowser can follow and punish. Get-up attack? Shield and punish. Bomb? Ok but if Link didn't have a bomb already he made it pretty obvious what he's thinking of doing.

Bowser has the worst edge options in the game. His ledge stand can be identified and punished on reaction out of shield. Same goes for his ledge jump and ledgehop options. His ledgeroll under 100% is probably his saving grace against shield, although D-smash can still punish it, and anything besides that you can just D-air out of shield on reaction.

Link has options, but eh, Bowser can cover half of them with his shield and the others just need to be read/reacted to.

Not denying it, but Link destroys Bowser's edge options much much better. Better D-smash to option limit ledge roll (SDI out of Bowser's). And of course D-air punish is better than anything Bowser has unless you run into a dumb F-smash.

Your right, We should use a moves that pretty easy to get around and lasts for 80 frames to edge guard people, granted it does 22% on the strong hit and 18% on the weak so I'll give you that much so I'll give that much for credit.

It's retardedly easy to land on Bowser. Furthermore as long as you use reaction time and good spacing to properly option limit him, Bowser at the VERY BEST situation has to choose between either brutal juggles or getting hit by D-air. And hitting Bowser out of jump with N-air first is very effective and leaves you the option to continue edgeguarding him.

Also Dair isn't going to kill Bowser early unless he hit him with the early parts of the move, which surprise, isn't going to happen is your trying to cover him coming across.

Stop sucking at KO percents. Just wait til like 125 if it's really a big deal, and it's brain dead easy to edgetrap a Bowser whose damage exceeds 100%. It's a more powerful and reliable kill than anything else Bowser has. Link has little business dying to Bowser before 150-160% as long as you aren't stupid around his Smashes, U-air, and Down-B.

The is completely reversed, Link has trouble using an airdodge because of the problems he has in the air I keep illustrating. Sure he can protect himself with projectiles and aerials, something he has over Bowser, but it doesn't help when he can't risk going too far with an edge guard from the stage.

Everyone who DIs well, EXCEPT Bowser has the option of airdodging, since Bowser gets punished no matter what if he doesn't land immediately after airdodging. That's the facts. Bowser's airdodge is much too laggy to ever be useful while recovering. Link's can see use thanks to clawshot cancels and since his airdodge actually is average (and his fall speed actually helps you make a successful low recovery in some situations after airdodging).

Bowser has vertical problems, Link doesn't have a move that can take advantage of this heavily. You can try and catch him as he is trying to cross Link onto the stage but despite his size he can very well Fair Link and air dodge past him if need be because of his air speed.

You obviously don't understand how edgeguarding works. NO character in the game can airdodge THROUGH anyone good when recovering, with the exception of basically Yoshi, and in Yoshi's case it's passing through the opponent vertically with double jump airdodge.

And if you're spacing correctly, Bowser's F-air isn't going to hit you when you're edgeguarding him.

Your right, having good horizontal air movement compared to the 5th worst in the game with fast falling speed means nothing at all.

NOBODY CARES THAT YOU CAN MOVE SIDEWAYS WHEN RECOVERING. Everyone does that.

Mixing up your vertical position and having good priority moves is what actually lets you avoid edgeguards, which is precisely what Bowser lacks.

Yeah Bowser's recovery sucks, it's not nearly as bad as how your making it out to be. He can reasonably recovery without his UpB, Link needs his usually. Link can't get too ballzy with his edge guarding because he has very little to help himself get back.

Bowser lacks priority, escape options, options to land on stage safely, and his edge game is in its own class of horrible. And the reward for edgeguarding Bowser with D-air justifies its risk, especially since it isn't hard to do.

Link's ground options are not safe on block, he needs to space and mix-up his attacks because his ground attacks are - on block, most of which are in the double digits in frame disadvantage. Link is going to mix-up his jab and ground moves because none of them are safe.

D-tilt is safe on block (and underused). Jabs spaced outside of shieldgrab range are safe. F-smash1 has implied safety and generally shouldn't be punished on block if it's spaced remotely well. It's not much, but it's better than most of what Bowser has, minus the threat of Up-B oos.

Link has an option to keep juggles going and camp...shame Bowser also has a counter option to get around it if he knows what to do. Both characters have rewards and risks, your blowing Link's way to high and deflating Bowser's way too much.

Bowser can't escape juggles feasibly thanks to his lack of reliable B reversals and priority. What Bowser can do is randomly approach and try for risk reward games. He has the worst air and ledge defensive options in the game though, and it should be universally exploited.

 

[Zigsta]

Bowser's low edgeguards are some of the worst in the game. He can't actually edgeguard Link's Up-B safely at all, since his vertical recovery is balls.

Bowsers would never be edgeguarding that low in the first place. You'll either get fair'd or bair'd as long as you're not too low. If Link's too low, then Bowser will just wait onstage and edgeguard with jab, dtilt, down angled ftilt, fsmash, or the occasional Firebreath. Hell, our getup attack goes through Link's up B.

Not responding to the rest of this.

 

[A2ZOMG]

That doesn't contradict anything I've been saying just keep in mind. Bowser's biggest threat when edgeguarding Link is edgetrapping. However Link easily does it better to Bowser since Bowser happens to have worse edge options. This allows Link to score a reliable and early KO through edgetrapping better.

Link however gets past most of Bowser's aerial based edgeguards really easily, and they don't kill Link that early as long as he doesn't do anything ridiculously stupid. Bowser only does those at high or mid levels, and the Boomerang covers that.

 

[Zigsta]

Nah, Bowser's definitely better at edgetrapping than Link is. Bowser has more tools at his disposal to keep an enemy trapped at the ledge than Link does. Take ftilt, for example. Bowser can angle it down if you're chilling on the ledge, or he can angle it up if you try and jump from the ledge to the stage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Nah, Bowser's definitely better at edgetrapping than Link is. Bowser has more tools at his disposal to keep an enemy trapped at the ledge than Link does. Take ftilt, for example. Bowser can angle it down if you're chilling on the ledge, or he can angle it up if you try and jump from the ledge to the stage.

I never said Link was better than Bowser at edgetrapping IN GENERAL.

What I said was that Bowser's edge options are horrible to the point that Link clearly has the advantage edgetrapping by far.

 

[Zigsta]

Ah, so you're saying if Bowser's on the ledge, then Link's in a better position. Well...yeah. So does like, the entire cast, haha.

But Bowser has a lot of ways to pressure Link when he's both offstage and on the ledge.

 

[A2ZOMG]

When Link is on the edge and Bowser is edgetrapping him, the options he most has to worry about are going to kill him at around...150ish if he doesn't fail at DI. Basically I mean F-tilt, D-tilt, and F-air, not to mention Up-B. And I'm not going to deny that Bowser can cover a lot of Link's options to get up fairly easily. A lucky F-smash might kill Link at around uh...120. He doesn't get to do it out of shield though, and it's massively telegraphed with a poor charge release time to boot.

When Bowser is on the edge, fresh D-smash 2nd hit might kill him at around...140 DI factored? And of course there is the question of whether or not it gets charged as Bowser ledgerolls, which could finish Bowser off around 120% on a good read. F-smash at the ledge should KO at about the same range, and it usually gets charged due to its reach and quick release time. But besides that, Link can feasibly react out of shield with D-air if he sees a ledgejump, ledgestand, or ledge attack, and D-air will kill Bowser at 125ish on the late hit, probably around 100% with the strong hit.

At any rate it's definitely very easy for Link to react to Bowser's edge options. And he has better KO options that can be implemented on reaction to Bowser's edge options.

Offstage...Bowser can really only edgeguard Link with an aerial if Link is falling towards the edge at close range, which D-throw can sometimes set up. His best bet is hitting the blindspot where the Boomerang won't reach him. But if Link is recovering outside the range where Bowser's initial jump can reach him, the Boomerang is going to usually deny most of his edgeguard attempts. Good use of Bombs also can make Link hard to edgeguard, although I think people also don't implement item catching enough.

Link edgeguarding Bowser offstage, the only question is will Bowser attempt to land on stage or go for the edge? If he's recovering to land onstage, risk getting juggled, and Link juggles Bowser better than most characters thanks to his stage control. If Bowser is going for the edge, ideally he wants to "pretend" that he might land on stage, except actually picking that option is unsafe and leads to juggles. Link option limits this quite well with N-air and to a lesser extent projectiles if he wants to be conservative, but a well-spaced D-air is very hard for Bowser to avoid when used to cover mid level and low recoveries.

 

[Drigo Toes]

Ah, so you're saying if Bowser's on the ledge, then Link's in a better position. Well...yeah. So does like, the entire cast, haha.

But Bowser has a lot of ways to pressure Link when he's both offstage and on the ledge.

I saw the video...

The first point is true, but, only if link return vertically to the edge. The second point... at least i didn't see Deva had problem to return at the stage from the ledge.

PD: Because the bowser's weigth, it seems that normally fall to the ground without the opportunity to tech or air-dodge before (it happens a lot in the video). Deva tried to Arrow Lock Bowser only in the final part of the second match, because only realised it at this moment; but, it's a good point in the Link's favor.
In conclusion, Bowser can be arrow & jab locked with some reliability.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I still don't see how you can ideally ignore Link's terrible air speed, paired with his fall speed, and his terrible recovery. Air speed is a big factor when when your recovery is as bad as Link's is, DI helps him of course, but he's still going to be harassed by Bowser. Dair is a nice read and punish option for Link, but I guarantee Bowser would rather risk getting on stage and try a fake out than be put into a position where he has to eat a dair, which is still avoidable for Bowser.

Your saying Bowser has a choose with his recovery, either he goes on stage where Link can wait to juggle, which he can kinda do.

Bowser can gimp him, even if Link can DI and protect himself well. I understand Bowser can't go low, but he doesn't need to go low to harass him. He has on stage options and off stage options to pick and choose just like Link does.

Your dead wrong about Link's ground moves being safe, Link need to jab cancel and mix up how he ends his jab because jab 3 having a -30 on block is pretty dang bad,bcan even grab him in the middle of his jab combo, if Link tries jab jab > Dsmash, Fsmash, etc, just shield and punish, if Link tries jab jab grab, time a spot dodge and Fsmash his huge amounts of lag, if he tries jab jab > any aerial/Zair, punish him OoS because he takes 8 frames to jump and even more to use the aerial/zair.

I don't see how Dtilt is safe at all, it's a -15 on block and has huge start-up with little range on it, I believe it's one of his worst moves if not his worst. Fsmash has mindgame potential which is why it seems safer than it actually is, if they know your going to only use Fsmash 1 or shield both hits it's pretty unsafe.

I'm not debating this any further with you, I don't believe this is 65:35 or better for Link at all nor does have a super easy time man handling Bowser when he is recovering or can stay stupidly safe against him. He can camp all day and have approaching hell for Bowser, but Bowser has legitimate threats to use on Link, both on stage and off stage, which is why I agree with Vex with this being a 5:5.

 

[IYM!]

i am still thinking than Link have the adventaje,

he is faster than Bowser
we have tools to prevent a gimp, Bowser dont have many tools
Link can keep away Bowser with his Zair
Link have good reach, and good priority
Exelent DI
several Kill moves
Link have qualities as DPS character, isnt exelent but is good, with a few close range combos, bowser will reach easily the 120%.

Bowser have his ISJR, this move gives him good movi lity but isnt nothing than we cant handle with boomerang or bombs

Bowser dont have any kill move than can kill us lower than 100% (less his Fsmash)

also he dont have good DI.

Bowser have his tricks, his techniques, and his good moves, but Link have his tricks too, i would say 60/40 in Link favor. or at least 55/45

 

[A2ZOMG]

I still don't see how you can ideally ignore Link's terrible air speed, paired with his fall speed, and his terrible recovery. Air speed is a big factor when when your recovery is as bad as Link's is, DI helps him of course, but he's still going to be harassed by Bowser. Dair is a nice read and punish option for Link, but I guarantee Bowser would rather risk getting on stage and try a fake out than be put into a position where he has to eat a dair, which is still avoidable for Bowser.

Either way, he's not getting back without taking massive damage. You can cover his landing, his ledge recovery, his ledge options, and score massive damage off either of them when you react correctly

Your saying Bowser has a choose with his recovery, either he goes on stage where Link can wait to juggle, which he can kinda do.

Link has a U-air that autotraps airdodges against slow characters and projectiles that linger and can be placed precisely at Link's discretion. Not to mention a 17 damage U-smash that anti-airs, can be DACUSed, and ***** most airdodges consistently. He juggles Bowser very very well.

Bowser can gimp him, even if Link can DI and protect himself well. I understand Bowser can't go low, but he doesn't need to go low to harass him. He has on stage options and off stage options to pick and choose just like Link does.

His most realistic ledge options will never kill you below 150% if you have respectable DI. Link can kill Bowser at 125% consistently while covering at least four out of five of Bowser's ledge options (ledgejump, ledge stand, ledge attack, and ledgehop). Link's ledgetrapping against Bowser is MUCH more rewarding and easier to do.

Your dead wrong about Link's ground moves being safe, Link need to jab cancel and mix up how he ends his jab because jab 3 having a -30 on block is pretty dang bad,bcan even grab him in the middle of his jab combo, if Link tries jab jab > Dsmash, Fsmash, etc, just shield and punish, if Link tries jab jab grab, time a spot dodge and Fsmash his huge amounts of lag, if he tries jab jab > any aerial/Zair, punish him OoS because he takes 8 frames to jump and even more to use the aerial/zair.

I don't see how Dtilt is safe at all, it's a -15 on block and has huge start-up with little range on it, I believe it's one of his worst moves if not his worst. Fsmash has mindgame potential which is why it seems safer than it actually is, if they know your going to only use Fsmash 1 or shield both hits it's pretty unsafe.

The same argument can be made for virtually every character in this game. Frame advantage is almost always negative in the double digits in this game, so what actually makes moves safe is their spacing properties. Bowser should never be grabbing you or interrupting your Jab sequence if it's spaced remotely well. You can react to his shield drop and his options are generally too slow to be reliable for punishing a Jab cancel mixup. You should stop *****ing about your character seriously. Link's Jab is GOOD at what it's supposed to do, and you're theorycrafting extremely badly by suggesting people shieldgrab it easily, when this is almost never the case in actual matches. Link's Jab should be treated like MK's F-tilt, which in theory is not safe, but due to its implied threats and variability and spacing properties is overall a safe and effective move.

D-smash and F-smash push Bowser outside of tilt range the majority of the time, so it's not that unsafe. It's easier to safely space those than Z-air arguably, which has virtually no shield pushback.

And You're using D-tilt wrong if you think it's useless and unsafe. Peach has a similar D-tilt and Peach players make good situational use of it. It's a good low hitting move, and -15 on block is very impressive in terms of safety (safer than MK's D-smash), which leaves only an 8 frame window to punish out of shield, and it's iffy that Bowser will even be in Jab range when you D-tilt his shield.

I'm not debating this any further with you, I don't believe this is 65:35 or better for Link at all nor does have a super easy time man handling Bowser when he is recovering or can stay stupidly safe against him. He can camp all day and have approaching hell for Bowser, but Bowser has legitimate threats to use on Link, both on stage and off stage, which is why I agree with Vex with this being a 5:5.

Bowser can randomly approach, but Link's reward is EASILY superior by far in this matchup, on top of Link being safer and more consistent and durable.

Please learn how followups and option limits work. Bowser actually does get ***** hard by them. You can't argue for Bowser that he can fundamentally avoid juggles or edgeguards like anyone else when he blatantly doesn't even have the tools for it. Link unlike Bowser has situational tools that give him existent outs for juggle and edgeguard situations. He's also a high damage character that can control lots of space and follow up after hits. You really don't have any excuse for doing poorly in this matchup. All the videos of good Bowsers going even with Link are against suboptimal playstyles and choices on Link's side.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh look, you didn't listen to what I said and ignore parts of my post, and did more thoerycraft that was debunked before.

Congratulations you are the first person on my ignore list.

Have a nice day.

 

[A2ZOMG]

^*is rolling on the floor laughing at this*

I can say exactly the same thing in response, except I'm consistently stating what actually works in real matches and citing examples from videos to back up my reasons. And a lot of my arguments weren't even countered.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'll remove you in three months to see if you shape up, until then have a nice day.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly I only see benefits to people like you not contributing their opinion. It just means my opinion is less tedious to articulate. After all, what I'm suggesting is stuff that is supposed to improve the quality of the average player by explaining options and how you can implement them, while everyone else pretty much views matchup discussion as strengths vs weaknesses.

For your boards, I'm giving you ideas what you CAN do. With people like you who constantly err on the side of saying what Link can't do, it's really no wonder why there are so many suboptimal playstyles and decisions.

Bowser on the other hand is a character who definitely has a much longer list of things that he can't do against a player who knows the matchup, and that's something I expect every Link player to understand.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Honestly I only see benefits to people like you not contributing their opinion. It just means my opinion is less tedious to articulate. After all, what I'm suggesting is stuff that is supposed to improve the quality of the average player by explaining options and how you can implement them, while everyone else pretty much views matchup discussion as strengths vs weaknesses.

For your boards, I'm giving you ideas what you CAN do. With people like you who constantly err on the side of saying what Link can't do, it's really no wonder why there are so many suboptimal playstyles and decisions.

Bowser on the other hand is a character who definitely has a much longer list of things that he can't do against a player who knows the matchup, and that's something I expect every Link player to understand.

Before I add you to my ignore list.

I'm saying this.

I hate you for calling me pessimistic, I value good ideas when they are, you continue to thoerycraft BS like Jigglypuff > Wario or making stupid claims like that.

I agknowledge every good thing about Link, like I do the bad things.

Forget the three months, I'm seriously mad now. Consider the ignore indefinite.

Have a dreadful day.

 

[A2ZOMG]

And I love how you are so horrible at reading and good at taking things in incorrect context. That statement was for the 1.1 discussion (which has completely different physics), and never did I state that Jiggs was better than Wario in the standard metagame. Plus you're analysis on options was just beyond awful as for why Jiggs was considered worse than Wario in standard.

If your flawed opinion and analysis is no longer going to conflict with mine, that's something I can easily live with. I'll merely be disappointed that you're not trying to implement better options.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I don't see the reason in ignoring people lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't see the reason in ignoring people lol.

^Most intelligent statement you've made in a long time. A ridiculously intelligent one for that matter.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

^Most intelligent statement you've made in a long time. A ridiculously intelligent one for that matter.

I don't try to come off as intelligent, and I don't bother arguing matchups with player's that haven't done the matchup in a tournament setting multiple times.

You can theorycraft all you want, but until you experience an actual real tournament set in the matchup, its all BS imo.

 

[Rizen]

And people should edgeguard more like you do Arizen. It appalls me that Deva and Izaw don't have any good videos of them performing D-air edgeguards on the EASIEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME TO CONSISTENTLY EDGEGUARD.

Take how good Deva was at juggling, and his better moments of spacing, not to mention how long Deva survives each stock, which makes the matchup 55/45 Link. Let's then assume that he learns he's able to edgeguard like Arizen does, and Bowser's horrible recovery worsens his matchups by about 10 points since it's a source of guaranteed KOs and huge damage (he can't juggle or edgeguard Link nearly as consistently, so it's a legitimate advantage for Link).

To be fair, that was a wifi match and I was being reckless. Deva plays smarter than me; I just used lag and was lucky. But thanks <3

This has wifail and I'm obviously not the best Link. But I'm posting it to show how easy it is for even me to DI attacks like firebreath especially at 1:20 or 2:40. DI is, as always, very important for Link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkuiODiErP8

I posted that replay to show Link's multi-hit SDI potential in the match.

Yes, Link will probably catch up with bombs and boomerangs and things like that, but it's not like Bowser is completely outclassed in the damage department. There's something called powershielding, and it's not the best option of getting through things, but it does its work.

Spoiler

where is kirin when you need him

Agree. And PSing is the absolutely best tool to fight Link with.

Zair and bowser Power Shielding: PSing is very easy, and it's Link's worst nightmare. You can shield dash to get even closer. Link is slow, with bad mobility, terrible side air movement, and a very bad OoS game. And a horribly laggy grab to top it off. I think PSing/shielding is being under rated in this discussion. Link is limited when backed against a ledge or wall and approaching Link with PSing is something any character can do. Link can't camp for long; his projectiles and Zair are mainly for spacing and mid range fighting.

Spoiler

Where is kirin?!

Either way Bowser is not actually all that threatening to Link offstage since his low edgeguards suck. 1

D-air on Bowser's recovery or ledge options >>>> Anything Bowser has on Link's recovery. Easier, more consistent, and more rewarding. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT BOWSER DOES. 2

Nobody good cares how far you can recover horizontally. No character in this game has trouble recovering horizontally when they DI, which ALL GOOD PLAYERS DO (Good DI is always assumed when I suggest what edgeguards work). 3

1 Any character can easily gimp Link if they are able to lightly tap him or hit with anything that doesn't launch upwards. Link can SDI through firebreath and has a lot of tools to defend himself while recovering but if 1 hit, like any of Bowser's air attacks besides UpB and Uair connect Link has little hope.
2 Bowser could have forwardBed one of those Dairs. Properly spaced Bowser's Uair and Fair should out reach it too. Wifi helps long lasting hitbubbles and Dair lasts 51 frames. Bowser's upB has such short attack range that Dair from the side or above will beat it and air dodges as well. So Dair is a great edge guarding tool but not perfect. Zair edge hogging is good too.

Kirin the new Legan now?

Legan is still incredibly good.

1Horizontal top airspeed is the LEAST IMPORTANT VALUE when recovering.

1Neither character changes directions in the air easily horizontally, and nobody cares about your airspeed anyway since all characters approach the stage fundamentally when recovering and can make it back consistently with good DI (even Link can have the option of landing on stage without needing Up-B as long as your DI is solid).

2You obviously don't understand how edgeguarding works. NO character in the game can airdodge THROUGH anyone good when recovering, with the exception of basically Yoshi, and in Yoshi's case it's passing through the opponent vertically with double jump airdodge.

1NOBODY CARES THAT YOU CAN MOVE SIDEWAYS WHEN RECOVERING. Everyone does that.

3Bowser lacks priority, escape options, options to land on stage safely, and his edge game is in its own class of horrible. And the reward for edgeguarding Bowser with D-air justifies its risk, especially since it isn't hard to do.

4He has the worst air and ledge defensive options in the game though, and it should be universally exploited.

1 Link's recovery IS DI. Having terrible side air movement hurts his recoveries, landings, and make's him easy to juggle. Air movement counts.
2 From above, fast fall airdode> tether is great for Link. Any laggy intercept or edge guard an opponent does near the stage that prevents them from edge hogging can be potentially gotten around this way.
Bowser doesn't have a zair but he can air dodge if high enough. When Link misses Dair off stage he can't do anything except fall for 71 frames.
3 Tap Link off stage and he dies. Bowser's OoS is good; Link has no escape options and bad OoS. Clawshot grabbing is super risky, Bowser's grab isn't and has good rewards. Powershielding make's approaching doable. Up close- Bowser>Link.
4 Firebreath's a pain.

----------------------------
This MU is 5/5.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't try to come off as intelligent, and I don't bother arguing matchups with player's that haven't done the matchup in a tournament setting multiple times.

You can theorycraft all you want, but until you experience an actual real tournament set in the matchup, its all BS imo.

In my opinion, live matchup results are BS without proper analysis, since there's always mistakes and suboptimal decisions. Breezy's Ganon took a game off Lain's ICs. Doesn't mean the ICs are not probably Ganon's worst matchup. Koskinator has beaten Snake players in tournament and took SuperBoom to the last game. Doesn't mean that Ganon does well against Snake at all.

And as for Bowser players going even against Link players, it doesn't mean that Link players are picking the best options for maximum reward when they should be.

@Arizen, Link recovers just fine against F-air, B-air, and N-air if you DI the hits correctly at any rate. He recovers even better if you manage to be holding a Bomb while you get hit. Actually getting gimped is really situational.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

In my opinion, live matchup results are BS without proper analysis, since there's always mistakes and suboptimal decisions. Breezy's Ganon took a set off Lain's ICs. Doesn't mean the ICs are not probably Ganon's worst matchup. Koskinator has beaten Snake players in tournament and took SuperBoom to the last game. Doesn't mean that Ganon does well against Snake at all.

And as for Bowser players going even against Link players, it doesn't mean that Link players are picking the best options for maximum reward when they should be.

Did it only happen once? I said multiple times.