Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Note the damage numbers I stated. Specifically when Mario's Up-smash is charged to do 16 damage (which happens from properly timed Sliding Up-smashes), it will kill the biggest heavies pretty reliably at around 130%. And then F-smash usually can be charged to do 20-21 damage on a bait, which as stated can happen within reason due to the leanback of Mario's F-smash and Link's low mobility.

And for the record I've killed Snake players at percents that low. I'm pretty confident in my numbers against Link.

Sounds like those Snake don't know the concept of DI.

I trust your moves kill, I don't trust it killing at 130% on average against Snake, Link I have more leave way in this situation, 140-150%ish sounds like when he is killable by Mario.

 

[HeroMystic]

Sounds like those Snake don't know the concept of DI.

I trust your moves kill, I don't trust it killing at 130% on average against Snake, Link I have more leave way in this situation, 140-150%ish sounds like when he is killable by Mario.

Keep in mind he says charged U-Smash, which is applied from Sliding U-Smash. When you account that, 130% doesn't sound far-fetched. The difference in knockback of Charged and Un-charged is rather significant.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Keep in mind he says charged U-Smash, which is applied from Sliding U-Smash. When you account that, 130% doesn't sound far-fetched. The difference in knockback of Charged and Un-charged is rather significant.

Oh, if he means charged then yeah I'll agree with him.

 

[Naisora]

Think its in our favor a bit, Mario can hold link back as good as Link can hold Mario back, but like its been stated, its easy to get damage in, and link is pretty easy to gimp once hes offstage due to his bad recovery. weak hitbox of nair,cape, fludd,back air, and uair seem to work pretty effective.

and link seems to be a bit more laggy on some moves....

 

[Scabe]

I don't like this matchup. I think mario wins pretty solidly after playing a few games with a Mario main.

Fireballs for me was very hard to deal with.

 

[Rizen]

Unless Kirin posts, I think we've covered everything. ?
@Mario mains: What does Mario like in a stage (small/big flat/slopes etc)?

 

[HeroMystic]

Mario likes any stage that suits his MU. Though generally, his best stage is Battlefield due to the option of platform abuse and allows him to use his ledge options to the fullest extent. Vs Link he'll take you to Battlefield and will have Frigate as his CP.

Look for big stages that'll give Link room for error.

 

[Soldner Kei]

My two cents, since I have plenty experience against mario...

OK, most has been said already, but anyway...

I think this MU it's 60:40(55:45 if you want) favor Mario, let's face it, if we get gimped, we lost, and that's the only dissaventage... he can be a biatch with his fire balls, and combo us into oblivion on sunshine, but he need to get close, and we have some moves to prevent that, but still it's inevitable, so deal all the damage you can, play smart, and you will have this match.

Zair is your friend, the chain eat the fireballs and hit mario if spaced correctly, quick moves like bair, utilt and dsmash will help a lot, bombs will do too, most than anything... watch out the rang, if caped, it can be annoying, specially to our recovery, and... try not to use spin attack to go back, it's safer to do zair recovery so we can't get caped or fludded that easly

I think the best stage against Mario is FD, you can limit his combo ability there, and come on people, Link mainers know how to DI, so expect him to live above 135 at least... but normally it's around 170-180, of course not gimped ;(

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think we're done with Mario.

So gogo onto Bowser, also thanks to huggles and correcting me that we did do Luigi.

 

[Cassius.]

Kinda starting to think this is in Link's favor simply because of ZAir. Unless PS'd it's just hell to get inside Link to do much of anything.

I don't really fear arrows/boomerang/bomb though, and if/when Link gets grabbed (why should that happen when you're ZAiring the mess out of me anyway) **** gets nasty.

Relatively, a breakdown of most of Bowser's important moves:

Jab: Can be used to beat out boomerang (not sure about arrows) I guess? So much for a "get out of my face" tool. Erm...a grab release follow-up, although there are better ones.

FTilt: can be used to beat out boomerang, I'm not sure about bombs/if it pushes them back and I don't think it runs through arrows. A far better grab release follow-up than Jab, and in most situations will put Link offstage or on the ledge. In this MU I'd rather use FTilt for a get-out move, because Link really shouldn't be in Bowser's face to begin with, so keep it that way and just tilt it out.

Klaw: Bowser's bread and butter, but Link doesn't give two ****s. If Klaw misses or Bowser's not realtively close to you, just ZAir it. Have fun. Amazing grab release follow-up, deals ~22 fresh w/one pummel. Don't keep your shield up a lot, and if you're smart, you'd probably hit Bowser in the air before he starts the klaw or after the hitbox ends. Aerial Klaw = God, but common sense would tell you to just jump away from the hitbox and ZAir, right? Good boy.

Grab: Bowser's grab range isn't nothing to brag about, and if you're ZAiring, you should be fine (unless it's the off chance Bowser powershields, then you're somewhat screwed, but not really). IF the grab is successful, as Link, you're pretty much done if the release is grounded. Jab, FTilt, DTilt, Klaw, Bowser Bomb, ReGrab and I think the t-pivot grab all are options. I'm not sure about air release, I never bothered memorizing it for Link.

Up-B: If you hit Bowser's shield, this move will probably be provoked. At low percents, it won't send you anywhere, so feel free to DAir on Bowser's recovery lag, or set up on that lag, whatever you guys do. Also an alternative to punishing ZAir when it's powershielded.

I think that's it...aside from the aerials (which I don't have time to write about because I have to go) and kill moves which...kill, that's really what you should be seeing from Bowser in this matchup. Maybe coupled with the occasional fire, but that, and a whole lot of shield camping is probably it.

Stage-wise, you'd probably want to go for FD if you're a camp God, and BF if you have faith in shutting Bowser down and air releasing consistently; but BF is usually a meh place to go against a Bowser. Um...counterpicks I'm not too sure of because I have no idea what Links usually CP.

/kirin's&jash'slinksmakemecry

 

[Huggles828]

I honestly think this is a match that is in our favor (a second match in our favor? Hooray!)

Bowser is just so big, and he doesn't have the range or speed of DK to be anywhere near as dangerous either. Link lives for a good while, and Bowser seems to have trouble landing his strongest killing moves (that said, it's Bowser. I wouldn't get careless), although he does have some fairly quick moves that are solid at killing. Like Limit said, zair is amazing in this match. Space it so that Bowser can't B up or grab OoS. From my experience Bowser has lots of shenanigans out of his shield, but we can negate many of them if we properly space that zair. Bowser also has tons of tricks with his B-forward, so that's important to watch for too. And grab release shenanigans, of course.

Just some quick thoughts. Maybe I'll say more later, but I just got back home after a 4 hour drive for Fall Break, haha.

 

[Cassius.]

I swear on my life, you're only in deep **** during this MU when you get grabbed. That's it. Everything else is all you guys.

55:45 you or 60:40. either one honestly. It just depends on how confident you are when you face a Bowser (inb4ignorantopinion)

When SPACED how I imagine Jash and Kirin did it, 60% of the time, powershielding ZAir doesn't matter on Bowser's end because he has nothing like DK's FTilt that just breaks all dynamics of spacing. I think that's on the second hitbox, because when the second hit is PS'd, I think Jab/FTilt OoS hits Link...

unless I'm completely talking out of my ***, I'm not sure. I know for a fact if Bowser PS's the first hit of ZAir, he's free to Up-B or something.

But on the real, this is in your favor.

 

[IYM!]

Another Link's positive aspect is his aptitude to damage rapidly,maybe is not so rapid as Mario or Samus in this aspect, but his disproportionate range and his force compensates it.

Bowser is big, which it makes incredibly easy for us to support it distantly with our Zair and bombs


The stage that we must avoid if it is that we are going to fight against Bowser is BF, the platforms provide more mobility to Bowser thanks to his ISJR, which can generate us headaches when we try to support it distantly.

FD is great for us in this MU, bowser wont have any posibility to aproach safely here

 

[A2ZOMG]

Believe it or not, I've actually been playing this matchup for fun a bit, and I don't think my Link is too horrible. When I will get up vids of my Link? That might take a while...

Honestly I think Link almost utterly destroys Bowser without question, at bare minimum on maybe the worst stage possible 6/4 in his favor. I would personally lean the matchup closer to either 65/35 or 7/3 Link's favor, except getting grabbed sucks, which can happen thanks to Bowser's better Jab. At any rate Link just racks up damage so much faster and safer in all other situations; he juggles Bowser EXTREMELY easily just chucking projectiles and throwing out U-airs and Up-smashes, his edgeguards on Bowser are ridiculously good (you have a guaranteed D-air on Bowser's recovery no matter what he does as long as you can reach his vertical height, and he's like the easiest character in the game to edgetrap as well), and Z-air ***** almost every form of zoning option Bowser has as long as you keep it spaced outside of Bowser's Up-B and grab range.

Link is also not very easy for Bowser to edgeguard for the most part. Bowser really doesn't have many options to stop Link from chucking a projectile and recovering low. Getting up from the ledge may be moderately difficult against a good Bowser, but nothing compared to what Link has on Bowser. There is like no other character in the game who just gets autoraped by Link's D-air offstage and while recovering from the ledge.

To top off how truly awful this matchup is, just every imaginable shenanigan I know of from Bowser just fails horribly in this matchup outside of the assumption that he may get a grab release here and there to try to even the score. Anything Bowser does in the air is a huge risk since Z-air and Boomerang anti-air Bowser just too well. Bombs as well are excellent at limiting space and easily punish any Down-B shenanigans Bowser might try and potentially kill (Link's U-air also consistently beats Bowser's Down-B). Link spamming D-air isn't actually too horrible of a strategy in this matchup just since it wrecks Bowser vertically (well, it's a bad idea if you're trying to kill with D-air, but Link does so much damage in this matchup you have room to be creative).

As stated earlier, I do believe Link hard counters Bowser pretty effectively. There is almost no situation where Bowser outperforms Link. Except slightly in close range. And Link just gets huge reward on almost everything he does in this matchup. Everything in the name of big combos, easy juggles, **** edgeguards, it just works against Bowser. Missing a grab against Bowser is also fairly hard, since he's a big target, and spotdoding is usually his worst defensive option.

This matchup kinda reminds me...it's basically the same as it was in Melee lmao. Just everything Link is supposed to do is exactly the same (except exchange N-airs with Z-airs from Melee to Brawl).

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Not gonna debate, just gonna give my ratio, 5/5

Kirin agrees with me also.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Last time I talked to Kirin about Link's matchups, that's not what he said. Just sayin.

 

[IYM!]

7/4 na, bowser also have his tricks, this MU is 6/4

 

[A2ZOMG]

What tricks exactly besides grab releases? All I see Bowser doing from neutral position is attempting to powershield (with a subpar shield no less) a ton fishing for an unsafe risk/reward situation that can potentially be baited and punished, and it's not like Link just taps him for 5 damage per punish. The way I see it, Bowser literally doesn't have real options to get to the ground or back onstage against a good Link. Lingering aerials and projectiles can be timed to catch Bowser from pretty much anywhere as he's landing, and his recovery is quite frankly worse than Link's given how predictable it is. You basically get a free D-air edgeguard on him if you stay at his vertical height, and he still can't land safely even if he manages to recover high, and his edge options when he's over 100% are the worst in the game (I'll add right here, it's very easy to combo Bowser to this much damage). Nobody else suffers that badly offstage.

A Link that never misses any juggle and edgeguard opportunity Vs a Bowser that never misses any grab release opportunity I believe wins very very solidly. I'm not seeing what awesome options Bowser has that actually work against a safe Link player.

 

[IYM!]

mmm.... you are right A2ZOMG, is just dificult for me belive in tha fact that Link finily have a easy MU

Izaw have few matches agains a bowser, and he didnt has any oportunity agains Link

 

[A2ZOMG]

What I just argued is my main reasoning for believing Bowser to be close to Ganon tier.

He just gets ***** by every pro tactic (ie, tactics that punish you when you're in a disadvantaged position) in the game so hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRj62G7lD-E

Ixis is pretty good I guess (actually implements powershielding and item catching correctly), but I wasn't too thrilled with how many missed D-air opportunities Izaw let pass. Like lol he was about to actually D-air for the kill, but a dumb Bomb got in the way lol. And at any rate, randomly fullhopping D-air really isn't unsafe when you're edgetrapping Bowser. And generally I felt Izaw was too committed to projectiles when edgeguarding when a simple D-air usually would have done the trick anyway.

 

[B!squick]

Match-up depends on how good the Bowser player is at eating spam. Though I guess that can be said of anyone. Needless to say, don't mess up. Bowser can punish like no other. Expect to take massive damage if not get out right KO'd if Bowser grabs you.

 

[Zigsta]

Easily a 50-50 MU. Link makes it hard and annoying to get in close, largely due to his zair. I personally find Link's zair harder to shield than Samus's, but that may be because I've played more Samuses than Links.

Deva and I have a VERY close tournament set that went to third game, last stock, last hit that will be uploaded tomorrow. Should help the MU discussion, although I openly admit I wasn't sure of GR options on Link at the time because I didn't expect to play a Link, haha.

 

[Cassius.]

So maybe 60-40 is a push. I was feeling 45-55 Link more anyway.

Literally, once Bowser gets past the wall of **** and ZAir, aka when he gets inside what's stopping Bowser, honestly?

 

[IYM!]

Link have god close range optioms like jab and Usmash, Bowser is slow, and we only need a SH to Zair to stop the Bowser attack

 

[Zigsta]

Link have god close range optioms like jab and Usmash, Bowser is slow, and we only need a SH to Zair to stop the Bowser attack

Link's jab isn't that good. Your frame data thread even says this:

Frame 7 is pretty slow for a jab. Definitely not a GTFO move.

That said, it can still be used sometimes against Bowser. Just expect to be jabbing Bowser away often.

 

[Huggles828]

Yeah, people often say Link sucks because his recovery is so bad, and yeah, it is, but honestly, Link's biggest downfalls are that he's slow and laggy, and has really no good OoS moves. Link getting wrecked by Bowser up close is not an uncommon thing. Link is terrible up close. Jabs are okay as a GTFO move, nair OoS isn't bad, but his grab is slow and has tons of lag if it misses, and his best options are very slow in comparison to most other characters.
Bowser's big enough Usmash OoS can work, and Link has spin attack, which are his fastest options OoS (if you include time for shield drop) at I think 10 and 11 frames, but that's not great and if you whiff you're going to get a ticket onto the Bowser **** Train, all expenses paid by Bowser personally.

When do Bowser's fastest options come out? I know B up is like frame 4 with invincibility frames 1-3 or something amazing like that. Jab is... 4 frames? 5 frames? Pretty quick iirc.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bowser's Jab is 6 frames, and I think it has slightly more range and frame advantage than Link's Jab. But if he's trying to get in after shielding wall after wall of Bombs, Boomerang, and Z-air (which remember is potentially TWO HITS, if you're trying to powershield it), Link is usually going to have the spacing advantage on his Jab, which gives him decent frame advantage as well. Bombs deserve special mention, since they can interrupt grab release combos.

Up-B is 6 frames as well, 1-5 invulnerable. It's possible to grab armor him, although very difficult.

Bowser's grab is iirc 9 frames. Ends on like frame 39 (average grab usually ends frame 29)

And as much reward Bowser may get for getting in, honestly I don't think it compares to what Link has on Bowser for just simply getting Bowser off his feet. Link just has all the tools to control Bowser's landing between flexible projectiles and quick lingering aerials, and he edgeguards Bowser MUCH harder than the other way around. Free guaranteed D-airs. =/

Also to note are Link's high damage combos, all of which generally end with Bowser either being above Link or sent offstage, both BAD positions for Bowser to be in, since pretty much all of his escape options just flat out lose to everything Link does.

Probably if there is anything I want to know from other Link users, it's how well you edgeguard Bowser, since Izaw's old videos against Ixis (and most of the old videos of Link vs Bowser that I'm seeing for that matter) are a good example of how NOT to edgeguard Bowser. Honestly, it's brain dead easy to edgeguard Bowser, and especially for a high damage character like Link, it's an amazing a source of ridiculously massive reward and easy kills.

 

[IYM!]

maybe bowser could have betters OoS options and better Jab, but he is slow,so he wont do a big combo if he bpass trough our wall. After 2 or 3 hits, we wil able to attack him

 

[Rizen]

I'm fairly sure jab starts on frame 6; that's the most common data I've seen. Jabs aren't fast but have good range, can cancel into many things, stop weak range attacks and jab lock. They're good for super-laggy Link but it's relative to his low placing.
Bowser's fire can stop overly aggressive Zairs, this should be stressed more. Link has incredible DI to counter Firebreath if Bowser's greedy with it. We can SDI/TDI out behind bowser quight fast and counter. Or away and start spamming.
Bowser's OoS UpB is easy to grab since it counts as a ground move when started on the ground. I'd say jumping is bowsers best option because Link know Bowser will shield a lot but can't grab him out of the air except with the 'grab bubble' on Link's hand. If Link misses a grab he is in for serious pain.
Zair and bowser Power Shielding: PSing is very easy, and it's Link's worst nightmare. You can shield dash to get even closer. Link is slow, with bad mobility, terrible side air movement, and a very bad OoS game. And a horribly laggy grab to top it off. I think PSing/shielding is being under rated in this discussion. Link is limited when backed against a ledge or wall and approaching Link with PSing is something any character can do. Link can't camp for long; his projectiles and Zair are mainly for spacing and mid range fighting.

Stages affect the MU, On big stages like Norfair, RC, FD, Halberd, Jungle Japes (Maybe Picto) 55/45 Link
On small srages or bad stages for Link like Frigate, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Battlefield 55/45 Bowser
Overall I'd say 5/5

What do people think about Delfino, Castle Siege, Brinstar, and Cornairia? Both characters have different pros and cons about these.

 

[IYM!]

Coneria isnt a banned Stage?

this Mu isnt 55/45 is 60/40 in our favor, Link can kill Bowser some early because we have many kill moves (Dair, Fair Fsmash,Dsmash Utilt) Bowser have his Fsmash, but is dificult to land.

Brinstar is helpful to us, we have better points to start a spamin, and CS is bad because the side of the first phase, the statues at the second phase, the only pat in our favor is the third phase

 

[Cassius.]

I'm glad you know about FSmash, as does everyone else, but Bowser does have other kill moves...lol

 

[Huggles828]

Dtilt can send people at a nasty angle and is quite strong. It's kinda laggy if I remember right. We can whiplash it though. Bair is also nasty. It kinda reminds me of Peach's fair. Utilt and Uair are pretty strong too, and will kill us a earlier than usual, but Link is still hard to kill vertically. I doubt fair will be fresh very often, but a fresh fair is pretty nasty too. I think ftilt is also pretty decent at killing and not terribly slow (9, 10ish frames?). I think Bowser is still strong, just not as strong per se as maybe DK because Bowser's strongest options, like his smashes and his B down, are harder to land.

Does this sound right, Bowser mains? What moves in particular do you guys use the most in killing?

 

[Cassius.]

Oh, I forgot about this for a while.

Uh, out of grab releases I usually use DTilt/set up for an up/back/forward air or something, because most of the time FTilt and Klaw are too stale to really kill.

Or I just keep racking up damage so any move like UpB or whatever will kill.

The move I use to kill the most in the air is BAir. UAir is a close second but no one ever gets hit by that anymore. On the ground I use DTilt.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's worth knowing that perfectly spaced, Bowser's U-air does beat Link's D-air. Not that the situation will ever come up easily, and it's probably not going to save you from D-air edgeguards, but Bowser's head does have complete invincibility when he's U-airing. If Link gets really predictable with something like ledgejump -> D-air, it's an option worth considering.

 

[Scabe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaNjS6pzrF0

Hey look a recent match of this matchup!

 

[IYM!]

oh, God what Deva done, in 5:30, he had survived, Dair isnt agood move for DI, Fair are better, but is slow and Bair is good(not as good as Fair) and is fast, die with a sideB in 150%, was ridiculous, Link had teh oportunity to survive.

 

[Huggles828]

Oooh, good matches.

I dunno IYM!, dair is the best option for Link vertically. Deva MC'ed w/ dair, and he certainly didn't die vertically from the hit. It just does next to nothing for MC'ing horizontally. Honestly, I've always felt bair was the best MCing move, better than fair (except dair for vertical hits if they're going to kill you).

One thing that's worth knowing is if Link hits you with the boomerang up close and it puts you on the ground it can set Link up for a jablock, although Deva didn't do it during the match (he did get a couple arrowlocks though).

So now that you've played Deva, Zigsta, do you still think it's 50-50? From that I can't see it being any better than 55-45; it looked pretty even.
EDIT: Nevermind, Zigsta said 50-50 after playing the match, haha.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wow, I thought Deva was just really really sloppy. Bit onto a lot of Up-Bs oos really unnecessarily and picked bad moments to use Bombs. He was really sloppy with his ledge game, and no D-air edgeguards? Seriously, I thought Deva just missed a hell of a lot of opportunities besides just picking suboptimal spacing options (he got better later on though). And his edgeguarding and edgetrapping was waaaaaaay too conservative while Zigsta took a lot more intelligent risks when edgeguarding/edgetrapping Link (which could have been avoided, provided Deva just waited a little longer on the edge). Against Bowser it isn't even a risk to edgeguard him. His recovery is more punishable than Link's, and he suffers from an even worse ledge game, yet Deva almost never capitalized on it.

But seriously, Deva did not play this matchup as well as I would have expected from him. His juggles were good and his spacing became better later on in this matches, but overall I just felt he was on the sloppy side and that his edgeguards were much too conservative and not well thought out. It's as if he forgot that Bowser literally can't airdodge offstage.

Props to you and all Zigsta (I mean hell, you played the matchup pretty d*mn well aside from one missed shieldgrab opportunity that I noticed and some suboptimal decisions with grab releases), but Deva could have definitely played that match a lot better by simply making better choices. I still stand this is a 65/35 matchup in Link's favor.

The fact that Zigsta was going EVEN with suboptimal gameplay while working his *** off makes me dead convinced about my matchup ratio.

The third match is up, but it's not nearly as good as the others imo. Plus I didn't think it was actually as close as Zigsta suggested, when you consider that Deva survived to 160+ each stock, and only had 104% at the end. Deva won that one pretty solidly, but regardless, the gameplay on both sides really wasn't that impressive to me, and Zigsta as far as I'm concerned almost certainly could have survived the F-smash hit 2 kill on his second stock.

Actually the 2nd match now that I think about it wasn't even close. Deva only had 61% at the end of that one. But again, I don't get why Zigsta died from that F-smash hit. He would have survived it by using his midair jump. Although on the other hand, Deva probably still would have won anyway with a smart D-air edgeguard or other stuff.

Only the first match was close, and it was because Zigsta got an extremely lucky gimp that was completely avoidable on Deva's part.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Believe it or not, I've actually been playing this matchup for fun a bit, and I don't think my Link is too horrible. When I will get up vids of my Link? That might take a while...

Honestly I think Link almost utterly destroys Bowser without question, at bare minimum on maybe the worst stage possible 6/4 in his favor. I would personally lean the matchup closer to either 65/35 or 7/3 Link's favor, except getting grabbed sucks, which can happen thanks to Bowser's better Jab. At any rate Link just racks up damage so much faster and safer in all other situations; he juggles Bowser EXTREMELY easily just chucking projectiles and throwing out U-airs and Up-smashes, his edgeguards on Bowser are ridiculously good (you have a guaranteed D-air on Bowser's recovery no matter what he does as long as you can reach his vertical height, and he's like the easiest character in the game to edgetrap as well), and Z-air ***** almost every form of zoning option Bowser has as long as you keep it spaced outside of Bowser's Up-B and grab range.

Link is also not very easy for Bowser to edgeguard for the most part. Bowser really doesn't have many options to stop Link from chucking a projectile and recovering low. Getting up from the ledge may be moderately difficult against a good Bowser, but nothing compared to what Link has on Bowser. There is like no other character in the game who just gets autoraped by Link's D-air offstage and while recovering from the ledge.

To top off how truly awful this matchup is, just every imaginable shenanigan I know of from Bowser just fails horribly in this matchup outside of the assumption that he may get a grab release here and there to try to even the score. Anything Bowser does in the air is a huge risk since Z-air and Boomerang anti-air Bowser just too well. Bombs as well are excellent at limiting space and easily punish any Down-B shenanigans Bowser might try and potentially kill (Link's U-air also consistently beats Bowser's Down-B). Link spamming D-air isn't actually too horrible of a strategy in this matchup just since it wrecks Bowser vertically (well, it's a bad idea if you're trying to kill with D-air, but Link does so much damage in this matchup you have room to be creative).

As stated earlier, I do believe Link hard counters Bowser pretty effectively. There is almost no situation where Bowser outperforms Link. Except slightly in close range. And Link just gets huge reward on almost everything he does in this matchup. Everything in the name of big combos, easy juggles, **** edgeguards, it just works against Bowser. Missing a grab against Bowser is also fairly hard, since he's a big target, and spotdoding is usually his worst defensive option.

This matchup kinda reminds me...it's basically the same as it was in Melee lmao. Just everything Link is supposed to do is exactly the same (except exchange N-airs with Z-airs from Melee to Brawl).

Your giving Link way too much credit, and Bowser not enough.

Link touching Bowser's shield is still risky, he has good OoS options. Link's moves outside of Zair and projectiles aren't what I would call safe either, like a cross-up'd Nair and the first hit of Fair are safe on block, even with spacing if Link makes a small mistake Bowser can get in. When he gets in Link has problems, if he grabs Link he can follow up from a ground release to a Dtilt, which sends Link at a terrible angle. Then I even think Bowser can follow up from an air release on Link as well, so Link has to avoid getting grabbed.

The thing that balances this out is the fact Link's spam is a pain in a half for Bowser to get around, and we kinda juggle him. Link doesn't really edgeguard him so much as making Bowser make choices to recover back, Link really isn't going to gimp him. On the flip side Bowser can gimp Link, quite a few ways I might add.

Spamming dair? You don't spam that move, period. In the words of a wise Link main I knew, it's a kill move not a toy. The move works if you read an airdodge, ledge jump, get up attack, or if they are trying to attack from below. Bowser isn't going to attempt from below unless he knows he can outspace Link's dair, and I'm doubting they will attempt this since messing up means getting hit by Link's best kill move.

This isn't a 7/3 or 65:35, no way, 5/5 like Vex and from what I believe Kirin has said on this.

Wow, I thought Deva was just really really sloppy. Bit onto a lot of Up-Bs oos really unnecessarily and picked bad moments to use Bombs. He was really sloppy with his ledge game, and no D-air edgeguards? Seriously, I thought Deva just missed a hell of a lot of opportunities besides just picking suboptimal spacing options (he got better later on though). And his edgeguarding and edgetrapping was waaaaaaay too conservative while Zigsta took a lot more intelligent risks when edgeguarding/edgetrapping Link (which could have been avoided, provided Deva just waited a little longer on the edge). Against Bowser it isn't even a risk to edgeguard him. His recovery is more punishable than Link's, and he suffers from an even worse ledge game, yet Deva almost never capitalized on it.

But seriously, Deva did not play this matchup as well as I would have expected from him. His juggles were good and his spacing became better later on in this matches, but overall I just felt he was on the sloppy side and that his edgeguards were much too conservative and not well thought out. It's as if he forgot that Bowser literally can't airdodge offstage.

Props to you and all Zigsta (I mean hell, you played the matchup pretty d*mn well aside from one missed shieldgrab opportunity that I noticed and some suboptimal decisions with grab releases), but Deva could have definitely played that match a lot better by simply making better choices. I still stand this is a 65/35 matchup in Link's favor.

The fact that Zigsta was going EVEN with suboptimal gameplay while working his *** off makes me dead convinced about my matchup ratio.

The third match is up, but it's not nearly as good as the others imo. Plus I didn't think it was actually as close as Zigsta suggested, when you consider that Deva survived to 160+ each stock, and only had 104% at the end. Deva won that one pretty solidly, but regardless, the gameplay on both sides really wasn't that impressive to me, and Zigsta as far as I'm concerned almost certainly could have survived the F-smash hit 2 kill on his second stock.

Actually the 2nd match now that I think about it wasn't even close. Deva only had 61% at the end of that one. But again, I don't get why Zigsta died from that F-smash hit. He would have survived it by using his midair jump. Although on the other hand, Deva probably still would have won anyway with a smart D-air edgeguard or other stuff.

Only the first match was close, and it was because Zigsta got an extremely lucky gimp that was completely avoidable on Deva's part.

I'll say for one thing, I believe Deva has been out of practice for a while so you may have a point about that, however the rest I have quirks with.

Bowser's recovery is more horizontal, Link's is based on momentum and is more vertical. Both of their recoveries are bad, Bowser however has a much easier time taking advantage of Link's than vice verse. Bowser has a uick Fair and normal B to force Link into a bad position. While Link can protect himself from Gimp attempts better than Bowser can, Link has to be careful or he can be gimped like what happened during the first game of those vids.

Link might be able to live longer, per say, Deva showed that his DI is pretty obnoxious but Bowser can live pretty long himself, while his size hurts him in the being camped area, it still gives him good weight to survive for a while.

 

[Cassius.]

A2Z, you really don't give Bowser enough credit at all. <_< This isn't the first time where you make Bowser vs. _____ seem like a cakewalk for ______.

Contrary to popular belief, Bowser actually isn't pure ****.

You act like Links run around jumping on heads sword-first. Last time I checked that was Mario's job minus the sword. Anyway, like Ryu said, no Link main will run around just abusing DAir, and you forget to mention that Zigsta wasn't even completely utilizing all of his grabs he got on Deva. He didn't go for regrabs, and he wasn't buffering Klaw correctly.

If ANYTHING, both players were playing pretty sloppily if you ask me. I'm still thoroughly proud with Zigsta's performance considering he played like that so early in his Bowser career, but you really have to take it easy.

I was gunning for 45-55 Link because I'm dumb and can't get around ZAir, but 5/5 is fine too.

From what I'm seeing, Link against Bowser:

+ ZAir
+ Camp game that wrecks Bowser/makes approaching slightly, if not more, difficult
+ Racking up damage due to camping/easy reads will have Bowser at ~100 at a pretty quick rate
+ pretty cute kill moves that can kill Bowser starting at around 125% (DAir is probably less)
+ Can whiplash GR -> DTilt which is a Godsend in itself

- Grab release ****ed. Hard too.
- If Bowser powershields the ZAir/Advances through the wall of **** and gets a grab, expect AT LEAST 25% damage from a Bowser even with decent grab release knowledge
- Bowser has alarmingly strong kill moves, especially in U/BAir
- Bowser has a number of ways to gimp Link, as shown by Deva's first stock; even if it is a mistake, mistakes happen, and that happens when you make a mistake
- Risky for Bowser to be chased offstage as Link, even if (by A2Z's words) Bowser's recovery is terrible; not every Bowser recovers via the ledge--notice how over 65% of the time Zigsta didn't even need to Up-B when he got hit offstage? He just DI'd up and saved himself the trouble.

I know off of ground release, Bowser can:

-Regrab
-Jab
-FTilt
-DTilt
-Klaw

All 4 of Bowser's best options out of a ground release are available. I would say it's hella dangerous, but Link has the tools to avoid getting grabbed for a while.