Social Link checked the thread. Wow! This is a nice thread!

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I have no idea sadly, I was trying out reverse bombslides and suddenly I did the item discard one.

Have you experimented with the slides of other characters?

I've looked into some of the other characters briefly. I'm aware of at least the fact that some of them don't have fake-outs and that a lot of them have better slides than us. Also the frame range at which it works is different between characters.
Anyway, I'm curious about this item discard thing without the a-stick cheat method, because according to my understanding of how bombslides work, it shouldn't be possible.

 

[smokebomb12]

You'd need three ladders and an elevator.

Stacked on top of one another.

On a space shuttle.

On escape trajectory from our solar system.

Before you could even see us.


I'm gonna tell you what my ex girlfriend told the guy before me.

I'm glad you're trying, but it's been three hours and I've been dry for three and a half. You're just not very good at this.

Reaction to your post.

How about we return to talking about Link shenanigans, or that Hyrule Warriors is coming for 3DS or E3 hopes, so we can move away from the insults and stuff and just calm down.[/quote
I agree with you 200%.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I love this quote so much that I saved it in my notepad app lol.

"For me, there is one hero above the rest that will never flee despite any trial nor personal cost.
His name, for better or for worse is Link, and His courage knows no bounds. Link takes a lot of patience to get good with and requires even more strategy, coordination, spacing, knowledge of the opponent's strengths and weaknesses, and true grit than pretty much any other character in SSB history. He is a Master's character, one who must be able to handle and re-adapt as many situations as necessary." ~Zane

 

[Camalange]

Maybe I'll switch my avatar after another seven years, assuming I still use SWF.

I change my avatar like every day.

 

[FSK]

I've looked into some of the other characters briefly. I'm aware of at least the fact that some of them don't have fake-outs and that a lot of them have better slides than us. Also the frame range at which it works is different between characters.
Anyway, I'm curious about this item discard thing without the a-stick cheat method, because according to my understanding of how bombslides work, it shouldn't be possible.

The input has to be similar to the reverse slide since that was what I was going for. I'll try and lab it a bit later.

 

[Elessar]

I change my avatar like every day.

You're being too modest.

 

[Rizen]

What characters would you guys say are worse than Link after the last patch?

 

[link and ike lover]

Welp ggs @ FSK You had a bad habbit of just using your bomb thats why I kept beating you. You gotta start making reads and go for off stage combat. Welp GGs.


Anyone else wanna play?

 

[Camalange]

You're being too modest.

You're right. I've actually been more consistent lately. Been looking for a new one, though.

What characters would you guys say are worse than Link after the last patch?

Still a lot.

Zelda and Samus will always be the worst.

 

[link and ike lover]

Anyone wanna play?

 

[Rizen]

^I can't play right now

 

[link and ike lover]

^I can't play right now

Its all good

 

[DUKEL]

What characters would you guys say are worse than Link after the last patch?

do you mean characters that are worse overall, or characters with which we have an advantage in the MU?

 

[Rizen]

do you mean characters that are worse overall, or characters with which we have an advantage in the MU?

Worse overall.

 

[8MAN]

Worse overall.

Mii Swordsman, sadly is still the worst overall character in the game.

 

[ShinnyMetal]

^I can't play right now

Charizard, mini swordfightser, mewtwo

 

[zeldasmash]

In my opinion (and without customs)

For sure are worse



Debatably worse

 

[DUKEL]

Well I've been thinking about Link in relation to tiers recently, and this is what I've come up with. I guess you could call this my first draft. I am willing to hear out counter arguments or whatever, but your reasoning behind it, and possibly game footage to accompany your argument would be appreciated.

Keep in mind that I am aware my list is probably inaccurate, and goes in no particular order. This is going off of my experiences, and based on footage I have seen. This is also based on no characters having customs and miis having the 1111 sets, because I simply don't have the time to learn every character's custom sets in order to even make a semi-accurate guess. This is also based off of 3 stock matches, because rage in two stock majorly influences tiers.

Link is better than these characters:
Little Mac, Wii Fit Trainer, DDD, Kirby, Olimar, Pit, Dark Pit, Charizard, Lucario, Robin, Marth, Lucina, Bowser, Bowser Jr, Falco, Palutena, Ike, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Mr. Game & Watch, Mii Swordsman

Link is even/unknown with these characters:
Mewtwo, Samus, Gay, Peach, Mii Blaster, Wario, Mii Brawler, Duck Hunt, Donkey Kong

Link is worse than these characters:
Shiek, Diddy Kong, Sonic, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Pac Man, Meta Knight, Shulk, Ness, Rob, Mario, Jigglypuff, Greninja, Zero Suit Samus, Yoshi, Pikachu, Fox, Mega Man, Rosalina & Luma

Characters that Link is worse than, but has a favorable->practically even MU with:
Sonic, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Pac Man, Zero Suit Samus, Pikachu, Shulk, Rosalina & Luma

Characters that Link is better than, but has an unfavorable->practically even MU with:
Wii Fit Trainer, Ike, Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Pit, Kirby

 

[8MAN]

In my opinion (and without customs)

For sure are worse



Debatably worse

Kirby is not debatably worse than Link, in some cases he completely outclasses him.

 

[Lawz.]

I change my avatar like every day.

Weaboo trash

 

[Knife8193]

Well I've been thinking about Link in relation to tiers recently, and this is what I've come up with. I guess you could call this my first draft. I am willing to hear out counter arguments or whatever, but your reasoning behind it, and possibly game footage to accompany your argument would be appreciated.

Keep in mind that I am aware my list is probably inaccurate, and goes in no particular order. This is going off of my experiences, and based on footage I have seen. This is also based on no characters having customs and miis having the 1111 sets, because I simply don't have the time to learn every character's custom sets in order to even make a semi-accurate guess. This is also based off of 3 stock matches, because rage in two stock majorly influences tiers.

Link is better than these characters:
Little Mac, Wii Fit Trainer, DDD, Kirby, Olimar, Pit, Dark Pit, Charizard, Lucario, Robin, Marth, Lucina, Bowser, Bowser Jr, Falco, Palutena, Ike, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Mr. Game & Watch, Mii Swordsman

Link is even/unknown with these characters:
Mewtwo, Samus, Gay, Peach, Mii Blaster, Wario, Mii Brawler, Duck Hunt, Donkey Kong

Link is worse than these characters:
Shiek, Diddy Kong, Sonic, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Pac Man, Meta Knight, Shulk, Ness, Rob, Mario, Jigglypuff, Greninja, Zero Suit Samus, Yoshi, Pikachu, Fox, Mega Man

Characters that Link is worse than, but has a favorable->practically even MU with:
Sonic, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Pac Man, Zero Suit Samus, Pikachu, Shulk

I agree with everything except Pit is not worse than Link. Even or better IMO.

Kirby without customs is definitely worse than Link overall. Kirby might give Link trouble in the MU, but overall Link is more viable.

 

[Elessar]

All of the people trying to say which chars are worse than Link, stop it. You're making a fool out of these boards.

 

[DJTHED]

Well I've been thinking about Link in relation to tiers recently, and this is what I've come up with. I guess you could call this my first draft. I am willing to hear out counter arguments or whatever, but your reasoning behind it, and possibly game footage to accompany your argument would be appreciated.

Keep in mind that I am aware my list is probably inaccurate, and goes in no particular order. This is going off of my experiences, and based on footage I have seen. This is also based on no characters having customs and miis having the 1111 sets, because I simply don't have the time to learn every character's custom sets in order to even make a semi-accurate guess. This is also based off of 3 stock matches, because rage in two stock majorly influences tiers.

Link is better than these characters:
Little Mac, Wii Fit Trainer, DDD, Kirby, Olimar, Pit, Dark Pit, Charizard, Lucario, Robin, Marth, Lucina, Bowser, Bowser Jr, Falco, Palutena, Ike, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Mr. Game & Watch, Mii Swordsman

Link is even/unknown with these characters:
Mewtwo, Samus, Gay, Peach, Mii Blaster, Wario, Mii Brawler, Duck Hunt, Donkey Kong

Link is worse than these characters:
Shiek, Diddy Kong, Sonic, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Pac Man, Meta Knight, Shulk, Ness, Rob, Mario, Jigglypuff, Greninja, Zero Suit Samus, Yoshi, Pikachu, Fox, Mega Man

Characters that Link is worse than, but has a favorable->practically even MU with:
Sonic, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Pac Man, Zero Suit Samus, Pikachu, Shulk

I'm pretty sure we aren't straight up better than Kirby, Pit/Dark Pit, and Lucario. I'm also pretty certain that Gay > Link. Anyway, it's kind of pointless to scale which characters are better or worse when our meta is still pretty new.

 

[Rizen]

I think some people are over rating Link but he is better than some characters. IMO:
and maybe

 

[Catana]

In my opinion (and without customs)

For sure are worse



Debatably worse

Well I've been thinking about Link in relation to tiers recently, and this is what I've come up with. I guess you could call this my first draft. I am willing to hear out counter arguments or whatever, but your reasoning behind it, and possibly game footage to accompany your argument would be appreciated.

Keep in mind that I am aware my list is probably inaccurate, and goes in no particular order. This is going off of my experiences, and based on footage I have seen. This is also based on no characters having customs and miis having the 1111 sets, because I simply don't have the time to learn every character's custom sets in order to even make a semi-accurate guess. This is also based off of 3 stock matches, because rage in two stock majorly influences tiers.

Link is better than these characters:
Little Mac, Wii Fit Trainer, DDD, Kirby, Olimar, Pit, Dark Pit, Charizard, Lucario, Robin, Marth, Lucina, Bowser, Bowser Jr, Falco, Palutena, Ike, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Mr. Game & Watch, Mii Swordsman

Link is even/unknown with these characters:
Mewtwo, Samus, Gay, Peach, Mii Blaster, Wario, Mii Brawler, Duck Hunt, Donkey Kong

Link is worse than these characters:
Shiek, Diddy Kong, Sonic, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Pac Man, Meta Knight, Shulk, Ness, Rob, Mario, Jigglypuff, Greninja, Zero Suit Samus, Yoshi, Pikachu, Fox, Mega Man

Characters that Link is worse than, but has a favorable->practically even MU with:
Sonic, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Pac Man, Zero Suit Samus, Pikachu, Shulk

Characters that Link is better than, but has an unfavorable->practically even MU with:
Wii Fit Trainer, Ike, Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Pit, Kirby

You idiots should start getting some real experience before posting dumb nonsense like this.

 

[Rizen]

You idiots should start getting some real experience before posting dumb nonsense like this.

Who would you say is worse?

 

[ShinTwist ScreamPaste]

Who would you say is worse?

The real question is why it would matter.

 

[Rizen]

The real question is why it would matter.

I was hoping for the actual tourney goers to chip in and keep everyone grounded.

 

[DUKEL]

I'm pretty sure we aren't straight better than Kirby, Pit/Dark Pit, and Lucario. I'm also pretty certain that Gay > Link. Anyway, it's kind of pointless to scale which characters are better or worse when our meta is still pretty new.

And when a patch is coming out in 3 days - I know. Humor me.

Regardless, I've played several a competent Kirby player. And while Kirby does have some cool setups Link doesn't, he racks up damage slowly overall, dies early, and doesn't kill early to compensate. Lucario is a weak character IMO, with the only thing going for him is his aura. The majority of the cast has a favorable MU against Lucario. But not Shiek, strangely enough.

I'll watch some pit matches and see what he looks like. We don't have any pits in my scene and I haven't seen many when I've traveled to tourneys.

Edit: youtube comment incoming with a solid analysis on pit. He may be wrong, but this is what I've found so far. (and I don't think he's wrong)

Spoiler

MrGENOCIDEGeorge 2 days ago
+Anthony Fish I'm a Pit main since Brawl. Pit has very few (if any) inherently positive matchups against anyone above C tier. He has negative matchups against pretty much all of S/A tier, and those that aren't negative are neutral. It's incredible hard to play him effectively, he has no real guaranteed strings/combos against many characters, he doesn't have easy strings/combos (like, idk, Mario's utilt spam or something). He has lots of ending lag on all of his specials, he's easy to predict, he has trouble killing faster characters... he's not bad - he's just not particularly good.

You idiots should start getting some real experience before posting dumb nonsense like this.

I'm appreciating the contribution Cat. Tell me where I'm wrong, and why. I'd appreciate it from someone who obviously has so much more experience than I do. Humor me.

The real question is why it would matter.

Does it matter? Probably not. It's still something that we can discuss and debate over instead of the pointless trash that filled last page between former mod + person who puts too much stock in age.

 

[ShinTwist ScreamPaste]

Knowing Link's position on the tier list is irrelevant, knowing his match ups is the important part.

Tier lists are only used for saying who is 'good' in the metagame, not too useful for the It's Freakin' Link crowd, since we're not going to move to another character anyway. I guess we could know who is better or worse than Link, but what good does that do us?

There's a reason tier lists are shunned around here. They lead to nothing constructive, just johning and raging instead of doing work.

 

[Rizen]

I was hoping people who had gone to live tournaments could illuminate how good, or rather not good, Link is so everyone would be grounded in reality. But that didn't seem to happen

 

[Elessar]

It's still something that we can discuss and debate over instead of the pointless trash that filled last page between former mod + person who puts too much stock in age.

It's social for a reason. It's as close as the boards get to "spam zone" so pointless ir arguable. In any case, this discussion is even more pointless because, as Shin said, it makes no difference to us. There is a reason why tier lists are looked down upon here. If anything is pointless, it would be reading your nonsensical post where not only you mentioned Shulk twice, but you also say "link is better but has bad MU vs". What, pray tell, was your measure for "better" if not MU? Heck, you even say that we have a favorable or equal MU vs ZSS. That itself already disqualified your entire "ranking".

In fact, you entire ranking is off. We don't have an even or favorable MU vs Falcon nor Pikachu. Pit isn't worse than Link, and Gay and Wario aren't even with us.

I was hoping people who had gone to live tournaments could illuminate how good, or rather not good, Link is so everyone would be grounded in reality. But that didn't seem to happen

Link is crap because it takes too much effort to do anything. We have no real/worthwhile punishes, no combos, too slow to act on reaction, our cqc is a joke, we get out spammed by characters that have one projectile, get juggled too easily, and our grab game is dead. To do anything with Link you still have to be superior to your opponent since Link won't do crap for you.

There, want a tier list? That's one question that will give you one. Can this character win for me or must I win in spite of the char? If you have to win in spite of him (as is with Link) then he's a low tier char. Not because he's bad, but becuase he takes work and commitment with little pay. People will always flock to chars that win for you (little investment, high reward) and so their meta will be more developed and they will have more representation. Link is low tier because as a char he offers no advantages and you have to work for your wins.

 

[Rizen]

In fact, you entire ranking is off. We don't have an even or favorable MU vs Falcon nor Pikachu. Pit isn't worse than Link, and Gay and Wario aren't even with us.

Thank you.

 

[8MAN]

In other words, your fundamentals as a player should be more important than your main's placement on a teir list. Just because you play a good character, doesn't exactly make you good. And besides, a teir list can change, so until you're a solid player, then it shouldn't mean jack s*** to you.

Edit: Didn't see Elessar's post when typing this, but yeah, what he said.

 

[Elessar]

In other words, your fundamentals as a player should be more important than your main's placement on a teir list. Just because you play a good character, doesn't exactly make you good. And besides, a teir list can change, so until you're a solid player, then it shouldn't mean jack s*** to you.

Edit: Didn't see Elessar's post when typing this, but yeah, what he said.

Words of wisdom right here.

 

[smokebomb12]

What characters would you guys say are worse than Link after the last patch?

honestly, no one. That patch hit Link hard. Link was sayed to be bad, and the patch did not help us at all.

 

[Rizen]

In other words, your fundamentals as a player should be more important than your main's placement on a teir list. Just because you play a good character, doesn't exactly make you good. And besides, a teir list can change, so until you're a solid player, then it shouldn't mean jack s*** to you.

^Yes, exactly. Unfortunately a ton of FG players who don't understand that are running around saying Link is 14th best:
http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/
And Link tends to get nerfed based on them. This is why we need vocal tourney goers to stomp the myths out. Unfortunately people see c*** like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBrvgR-c1VQ and think "Link goes even with or beats CF".
Seriously, players like DUKEL want to hear from experience but are getting static. I'm trying to get some discussion going.

 

[Elessar]

Seriously, players like DUKEL want to hear from experience but are getting static. I'm trying to get some discussion going.

1) DUKEL was probably being snarky at cat and doesn't axtually/honestly want to hear from experience.

2) Our words will be vain until you feel the difference. They need to play in an offline tourney, or else their Fg ratio, anther's ladder placement, them beating their little brother in offline distorts their perception. I can remember reading comments of people during brawl saying that m2k was bad and that they could totally beat them with their captain falcon. Wifi warriors won't learn becuase they don't want to take anything but their own empirical experience as the absolute truth. It's like CbH saying the brain vomit he used to spew. We can say, but they won't know what it feels like until they go to a real offline tournament and get steamrolled by someone who is clearly worse of a player than you but hoohaa'd you into elimination.

 

[8MAN]

^Yes, exactly. Unfortunately a ton of FG players who don't understand that are running around saying Link is 14th best:
http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/
And Link tends to get nerfed based on them. This is why we need vocal tourney goers to stomp the myths out. Unfortunately people see c*** like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBrvgR-c1VQ and think "Link goes even with or beats CF".
Seriously, players like DUKEL want to hear from experience but are getting static. I'm trying to get some discussion going.

For Glory results are about as credible as Brian Williams.
If we want to stomp the myth that Link is "totally viable and suffers from only miniscule problems", we need someone who is regarded as a "Link Expert" in the casual scene to tell them that.
Sadly, the only person I can think of who can do this effectively is Izaw, and that poses a problem as most of the conception that Link is "OP" comes from his youtube videos that mostly all showcase his victories of Link against supposedly "high teir" characters.

 

[link7]

You guys remember when Link used to be pretty good? Thanks Sakurai.
Wonder how they'll demolish Link even further.