Social Link checked the thread. Wow! This is a nice thread!

[Elessar]

Actually, he said that he would never balance customs, not that he wouldn't balance the game anymore. Read the quote carefully. Also, his patches are based on his own criteria, not fan demand (which, I admit, a good developer should do on occasion). His decisions are always questionable at best and down right stupid most of the times. Again, this is a man who has purposely sabotaged his own game, declared he wished it didn't do well, and stated that he doesn't like competitive gamers. So he made a game we all enjoy, great, that doesn't mean anything.

Also, that excuse of Sakurai respecting the nature of the chars in their games is stupid and fake. If not, where did he get Falcon's move from? You never even see him in his game. And why is Ganondorf a clone?

 

[Serac]

A successful game? How about all the Super Smash Bros. Games, Kirby games, and Kid Icarus Uprising? Is that luck? Consistently pumping great games one after the other?

He doesn't listen to fans? Where did those balance patches come from than? The ones he said he wouldn't do anymore but did anyways due to popular demand?

Don't even compare Sakurai to that scumbag company. You know how much better he is than that.

Well I can't say that he's a bad designer I liked most of the Kirby games I have played, however his jokes about wanting to leave Smash in peace are starting to sound serious, at lest to me.

I mean look at how he fixed Link's lock and he left the other locks untouched.

 

[The Merc]

Lol, Lawz is Izaw. The conspiracy is revealed.

Whoops. Hehe, my bad

Also, Sakurai isn't killing himself. You make it sound like if he's a martyr. He suffers from stress, something everyone does to some extent(specially in Japan). He just can't deal with it and can't deal with the hate that comes from being a public figure. At least I feel no more sympathy for him than I'd feel for anyone else.

I never meant to imply that Sakurai is a martyr. Just say that making a game isn't a walk in the park.

I should have explained myself, I believe that one situation someone would like to have a long grab is when you know an attack is coming you block and are pushed away but still are able to grab the target, don't get me wrong though, I believe that the options Lawlz. and you gave are better however those can be done by characters with short grabs which makes the clawshot kinda pointless and me salty.

Oh, I see. Still, at least it helps for his recovery.

 

[Lawz.]

Actually, he said that he would never balance customs, not that he wouldn't balance the game anymore. Read the quote carefully. Also, his patches are based on his own criteria, not fan demand (which, I admit, a good developer should do on occasion). His decisions are always questionable at best and down right stupid most of the times. Again, this is a man who has purposely sabotaged his own game, declared he wished it didn't do well, and stated that he doesn't like competitive gamers. So he made a game we all enjoy, great, that doesn't mean anything.

Also, that excuse of Sakurai respecting the nature of the chars in their games is stupid and fake. If not, where did he get Falcon's move from? You never even see him in his game. And why is Ganondorf a clone?

What is the purpose of being a game developer? To make a game that people enjoy and want to buy.

As a game developer, that literally surrounds the entire purpose of even making a game. Him not agreeing with people turning it into head to head competition does not deny the fact that he makes great games.

Capcom is notorious for making tons of clone characters in their fighting games, like Street Fightier 4. Does that make Yoshinori Ono a bad game developer? Obviously not, because (like the Smash series) it is successful.

Link's design seems pretty true to the character, Mario as well, Sonic, Pit, Duck Hunt, Pikachu, Charizard, Jigglypuff, Kirby to name a few. I'll give that Ganon shouldn't be a clone, that's just dumb.

And his updates are most certainly not from his own criteria.

People complained about Diddy: Patched
People complained about Sonic: Patched
People complained about Link: Patched
People complained about Sheik: Patched
People complained about ROB: Patched

Nobody complained about the other characters that have locks (such as Fox), so they were not removed BECAUSE he listened to the people playing his game.

Also, metaknight was busted in Brawl, he did a damn good job tweaking him in this game.

 

[Elessar]

What is the purpose of being a game developer? To make a game that people enjoy and want to buy.

As a game developer, that literally surrounds the entire purpose of even making a game.

By that criteria E. L. James and Stephenie Meyer are brilliant writers. Their books are masterpieces and we should all revere what superb wordsmiths they are.

People complained about Diddy: Patched
People complained about Sonic: Patched
People complained about Link: Patched
People complained about Sheik: Patched
People complained about ROB: Patched

Too bad he did a lazy, messy job at it though. He patched them and addressed the issues but didn't solve anything. That shows a bad dev. He doesn't understand his own game and the patches he introduced didn't really address the complaints in an efficient way. He patched because he had to, but he didn't patch it right.

 

[The Merc]

What is the purpose of being a game developer? To make a game that people enjoy and want to buy.

As a game developer, that literally surrounds the entire purpose of even making a game. Him not agreeing with people turning it into head to head competition does not deny the fact that he makes great games.

Capcom is notorious for making tons of clone characters in their fighting games, like Street Fightier 4. Does that make Yoshinori Ono a bad game developer? Obviously not, because (like the Smash series) it is successful.

Link's design seems pretty true to the character, Mario as well, Sonic, Pit, Duck Hunt, Pikachu, Charizard, Jigglypuff, Kirby to name a few. I'll give that Ganon shouldn't be a clone, that's just dumb.

And his updates are most certainly not from his own criteria.

People complained about Diddy: Patched
People complained about Sonic: Patched
People complained about Link: Patched
People complained about Sheik: Patched
People complained about ROB: Patched

Nobody complained about the other characters that have locks (such as Fox), so they were not removed BECAUSE he listened to the people playing his game.

Also, metaknight was busted in Brawl, he did a damn good job tweaking him in this game.

????

When did people complain about Sonic and Link?

 

[Elessar]

????

When did people complain about Sonic and Link?

FG scrubs do it all the time. And Sakurai is all about the casuals.

 

[sasook]

When this happened.

 

[The Merc]

FG scrubs do it all the time. And Sakurai is all about the casuals.

Oh, i see.

I wonder what the good Sonic players did to the casuals to have them complain so much?

When this happened.

Is it bad that I want that as an alt for Sonic?

 

[Zelkam]

It was pivot grab but still

1. Bowser is a larger character, therefore he's going to extend out further than Link despite the fact that they are both at the edge. So really Bowser is closer to Robin than Link is.
2. If you look carefully, Robin is in one of her idle animations when Bowser grabs her which probably extends her hurtbox and further closes the gap between herself and Bowser.
3. Already mentioned, but you're comparing a pivot grab to a standard grab. Pivot grabs have more range than standard grabs which further makes this comparison incomparable.

Long story short, it's not as bad as you make it out to be.

 

[The Merc]

1. Bowser is a larger character, therefore he's going to extend out further than Link despite the fact that they are both at the edge. So really Bowser is closer to Robin than Link is.
2. If you look carefully, Robin is in one of her idle animations when Bowser grabs her which probably extends her hurtbox and further closes the gap between herself and Bowser.
3. Already mentioned, but you're comparing a pivot grab to a standard grab. Pivot grabs have more range than standard grabs which further makes this comparison incomparable.

Long story short, it's not as bad as you make it out to be.

I don't Character's hands in Smash 4 actually have hurt box. I think. you're right about comparing Bowser Pivot to Link's standard.

 

[Elessar]

Pivot grabs have more range than standard grabs which further makes this comparison incomparable.

No, if only Link's pivot would also extend his range...

 

[Lawz.]

By that criteria E. L. James and Stephenie Meyer are brilliant writers. Their books are masterpieces and we should all revere what superb wordsmiths they are.



Too bad he did a lazy, messy job at it though. He patched them and addressed the issues but didn't solve anything. That shows a bad dev. He doesn't understand his own game and the patches he introduced didn't really address the complaints in an efficient way. He patched because he had to, but he didn't patch it right.

I'm not a fan of 50 shades or Twilight, but I don't let that opinion cloud the fact that those two authors are clearly talented. I'm just personally not a fan of that stuff.

Patching is a clear form of addressing an issue and did solve a lot of clear flaws in the game. Yeah he made Link ****, but saying the patches did nothing is narrow minded. It certainly fixed Diddy (who everyone complained about) which made tons of matchups more viable against him and janky stages like Lylat were tweaked so people weren't trapped underneath the ledge without any hope of recovering. And there were a handful of characters that suffered from seemingly random landing lag when recovering that was fixed so they weren't punished for.... *gasp* recovering correctly.


But Link still sucks so Sakurai is bad at making games.

 

[Rizen]

I'm sorry, does Link sprint in Zelda games allowing him to traverse any sort of distance with formidable speed? Is there ever a jump button that allows the oh-so-mobile protagonist to gracefully weave through the air? No.

Pegasus boots, Skyward Sword dash. Roc's Feather/cape.

1. Bowser is a larger character, therefore he's going to extend out further than Link despite the fact that they are both at the edge. So really Bowser is closer to Robin than Link is.
2. If you look carefully, Robin is in one of her idle animations when Bowser grabs her which probably extends her hurtbox and further closes the gap between herself and Bowser.
3. Already mentioned, but you're comparing a pivot grab to a standard grab. Pivot grabs have more range than standard grabs which further makes this comparison incomparable.

Long story short, it's not as bad as you make it out to be.

Doesn't Link's pivot have the same range as his other grabs?

I'm also comparing a much more laggy tether grab to a normal type grab. Give Link a grab that starts earlier than frame 12 and ends sooner than frame (IDK but it's a lot) and I'll say it's not that bad.

 

[Lawz.]

Pegasus boots, Skyward Sword dash. Roc's Feather/cape.


Doesn't Link's pivot have the same range as his other grabs?

I'm also comparing a much more laggy tether grab to a normal type grab. Give Link a grab that starts earlier than frame 12 and ends sooner than frame (IDK but it's a lot) and I'll say it's not that bad.

Alright you got me there hahaha

 

[Elessar]

I'm not a fan of 50 shades or Twilight, but I don't let that opinion cloud the fact that those two authors are clearly talented. I'm just personally not a fan of that stuff.

They really aren't. Read their books. Criticize them from a literary stand point and they aren't talented. They got lucky with those books. Point in case? Meyer tried to write other books and nobody bought them because they were so bad. The fact that someone makes something successful doesn't immediately mean nor imply that they are good at it.

Patching is a clear form of addressing an issue and did solve a lot of clear flaws in the game. Yeah he made Link ****, but saying the patches did nothing is narrow minded. It certainly fixed Diddy (who everyone complained about) which made tons of matchups more viable against him and janky stages like Lylat were tweaked so people weren't trapped underneath the ledge without any hope of recovering. And there were a handful of characters that suffered from seemingly random landing lag when recovering that was fixed so they weren't punished for.... *gasp* recovering correctly.

He addressed and fixed some things but not everything. Granted, he probably couldn't address everything, but Sheik and Diddy are still far away from being truly balanced. His fixes so far have been sloppy and half hearted, whether they fixed the issue someone or not. His fixes and balances still follow no reason nor logic at all.

But Link still sucks so Sakurai is bad at making games.

Nice try at dismissing my points with this. It wasn't effective, but nice try nonetheless.

 

[Lawz.]

They really aren't. Read their books. Criticize them from a literary stand point and they aren't talented. They got lucky with those books. Point in case? Meyer tried to write other books and nobody bought them because they were so bad. The fact that someone makes something successful doesn't immediately mean nor imply that they are good at it.



He addressed and fixed some things but not everything. Granted, he probably couldn't address everything, but Sheik and Diddy are still far away from being truly balanced. His fixes so far have been sloppy and half hearted, whether they fixed the issue someone or not. His fixes and balances still follow no reason nor logic at all.



Nice try at dismissing my points with this. It wasn't effective, but nice try nonetheless.

You don't have a point besides obvious bias and emotional ties to a character he shafted. "He's bad because I said so" and "he got lucky" is your most compelling rebuttal. Nothing more.

I don't know why this is even an argument, we're on a community forum dedicated to his "lazy and half hearted" developments lol

Case in point.

 

[Elessar]

You don't have a point besides obvious bias and emotional ties to a character he shafted. "He's bad because I said so" and "he got lucky" is your most compelling rebuttal. Nothing more.

I don't know why this is even an argument, we're on a community forum dedicated to his "lazy and half hearted" developments lol

Case in point.

Sure, bias. Keep saying that if it makes you feel better. I made my points which you ignored (big sales do not equate to talent) and instead turned this into an ad hominem by trying to disprove my arguments with bias.

Go read my original post again; he's a mediocre dev, not a great one, not a bad one average. He's successful, but that doesn't make him good. Link's status has nothing to do with my opinion. It is based on his constantly questionable decisions.

And yes, we are on a boards dedicated to smash. Does that mean I like the game? Maybe but I do like it quite a bit. Does that mean Smash is a perfect game? No, far from it. Do I have to like Sakurai if I like his game? Not at all. Again, how does me liking his game smash being a successful franchise, or us being here equate to me having to like Sakurai and that he's a good dev? I'll answer that for you, it doesn't.

Here, I'll give you another example. Michael Bay's movies are always a blockbuster. Does that make him a good director? No, he's the butt joke of everyone in the industry and of critics alike. He is successful, some people like his movies, but he isn't a great director by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I don't mean to intrude on the debate or anything, but shouldn't there be a thread about Link & teams? For instance, which characters work best as a partner and whatnot, how to play Link in teams, etc.? Him in teams definitely seems like a topic worth discussing imo, and it hasn't been explored very much at all.

 

[The Merc]

This argument between @ Lawz. and @ Elessar is really starting to heat up.

 

[DarkDeity15]

This argument between @ Lawz. and @ Elessar is really starting to heat up.

Yeah, they both make very compelling arguments. I won't say who I think is winning though for the sake of not getting flamed lol.

 

[Lawz.]

Sure, bias. Keep saying that if it makes you feel better. I made my points which you ignored (big sales do not equate to talent) and instead turned this into an ad hominem by trying to disprove my arguments with bias.

Go read my original post again; he's a mediocre dev, not a great one, not a bad one average. He's successful, but that doesn't make him good. Link's status has nothing to do with my opinion. It is based on his constantly questionable decisions.

And yes, we are on a boards dedicated to smash. Does that mean I like the game? Maybe but I do like it quite a bit. Does that mean Smash is a perfect game? No, far from it. Do I have to like Sakurai if I like his game? Not at all. Again, how does me liking his game smash being a successful franchise, or us being here equate to me having to like Sakurai and that he's a good dev? I'll answer that for you, it doesn't.

Here, I'll give you another example. Michael Bay's movies are always a blockbuster. Does that make him a good director? No, he's the butt joke of everyone in the industry and of critics alike. He is successful, some people like his movies, but he isn't a great director by any stretch of the imagination.

You're right, big sales don't lead to talent. But winning best fighting game numerous times and never getting a bad review on his projects from a wide range of professional outlets would point to him being good at it. And not just one (implying he may have gotten lucky or some sort of fluke) but four installments.

His decisions will be seen to you or I as questionable because of the competitive perspective. You seem to forget that he made this game to be fun, he has clearly done that multiple times. And comparing him to Michael Bay? I don't know if I would go THAT far...

Sakurai is far from perfect and of course Smash has stuff that could certainly require more patches. But judging from consistency in not only sales, but reviews, awards, constant and, seemingly, long lasting player base, he's doing something right. But again this really boils down to your opinion. Which now we all know is, he isn't that great.

 

[The Merc]

Yeah, they both make very compelling arguments. I won't say who I think is winning though for the sake of not getting flamed lol.

I am sort of with you. I am say neither is wrong, and that they are both winners :D

 

[Lawz.]

I am sort of with you. I am say neither is wrong, and that they are both winners :D

Do I get a participation trophy?

I want a trophy.

 

[The Merc]

Do I get a participation trophy?

I want a trophy.

Uh......

Would you like a cookie instead?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Unknown hero. You're treading dangerously into the 'image spam' section of the things make me twitch.

 

[Lawz.]

Unknown hero. You're treading dangerously into the 'image spam' section of the things make me twitch.

He's just handing out cookies is all

 

[Rizen]

Unknown hero. You're treading dangerously into the 'image spam' section of the things make me twitch.

Stay away from the Zelda social; you might have a heart attack after seeing it.

 

[The Merc]

Unknown hero. You're treading dangerously into the 'image spam' section of the things make me twitch.

Oh, really? How?

This is somewhat normal of at the Robin social thread.

He's just handing out cookies is all

Exactly. I wasn't looking for trouble.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I'd prefer to stay away from a completely unproductive/unfocused social that acts as a post/like farm, e.g. the abomination that is the smash 4 social. That's all.

 

[The Merc]

I'd prefer to stay away from a completely unproductive/unfocused social that acts as a post/like farm, e.g. the abomination that is the smash 4 social. That's all.

Oh...... I see.
Really want to post a gif or emoticon now but with you on edge, I think I best not.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Just letting you know that @ zeldasmash has completely revamped the general matchup thread http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-link-general-matchup-discussion.374025/
We're moving into the stage where this sort of thread becomes a bit more relevant as the game has been out for long enough that we are better able to look at the bigger picture and assess where we stand in relation to the rest of the cast. Further contributions are always welcome, and it is my understanding that zeldasmash will continue to update the OP as a general consensus is reached.

 

[Himura Kenshin]

Shiiiiiiiiiieeeeeet, I'm bias. I'll like Sakurai again if he makes Link not terrible. Is that too much to ask?

Samus too, but that's for another thread.

 

[DUKEL]

Samus too, but that's for another thread.

Hey but Samus isn't bad this time around. Her recovery is the bomb.

see what i did there?

 

[Rizen]

I got around to beating Metroid Prime 3 Corruption 100% in 16 hours, 44 minutes.
Review

Spoiler

MP3 is a very good game. The environments are beautiful, controls are smooth and make innovative use of motion control without it being tedious. The inclusion of hypermode was a nice new touch. Using the Gunship to carry large cargo added a fresh puzzle element and gave Samus' ship greater purpose than being a save point for once. Screw Attacks returned and were thankfully easier to use than in MP2. My favorite new motion innovation was how grapples were used.

The story felt more mission based, which was bothersome. It's not as bad as you think it will be when playing the first chapter but still annoying. Unlike other Prime games you have very distinct objectives and a command computer guiding you. This is similar to Metroid Fusion but I found the characters less likable and that sucks when you hear from them often. It was a good way to wrap up the Trilogy and a decent story. I prefer the exploration and piecing the story together through scans approach MP1 and 2 took.
None of the characters were that interesting, although all were passable. I only felt slightly emotionally invested in the Bounty Hunter who used ice based weapons.

MP3 had great environments but felt less exploration oriented than the other games. The only collectables were missile expansions and worthless ship missile expansions. Some secret weapons like the missile combos in MP1 and 2 would have been cool, especially since missiles were weaker in this game.

The best way to look at MP3 is it's a very good game but slightly lacking compared to the previous MP games. I realize that MP3 was the only MP game to feature motion controls before the trilogy remakes of the game cube MP1 and 2 so that raises my score. MP3 was the easiest of the 3 but I didn't beat it on Hypermode difficulty and can't complain.
MP3 receives a 9.5 out of 10.

The Metroid Prime Trilogy as a whole gets 10/10. MP1 was 10/10, MP2 was 9/10 and MP3 is 9.5/10. You can down load it from E-shop for $20 American. 3 Metroid Prime games for $20- seriously get this game!

 

[Zelkam]

Yeah, they both make very compelling arguments. I won't say who I think is winning though for the sake of not getting flamed lol.

I would say Lawz is winning.

Of course being a Sheik main he's probably used to that.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I got around to beating Metroid Prime 3 Corruption 100% in 16 hours, 44 minutes.
Review

Spoiler

MP3 is a very good game. The environments are beautiful, controls are smooth and make innovative use of motion control without it being tedious. The inclusion of hypermode was a nice new touch. Using the Gunship to carry large cargo added a fresh puzzle element and gave Samus' ship greater purpose than being a save point for once. Screw Attacks returned and were thankfully easier to use than in MP2. My favorite new motion innovation was how grapples were used.

The story felt more mission based, which was bothersome. It's not as bad as you think it will be when playing the first chapter but still annoying. Unlike other Prime games you have very distinct objectives and a command computer guiding you. This is similar to Metroid Fusion but I found the characters less likable and that sucks when you hear from them often. It was a good way to wrap up the Trilogy and a decent story. I prefer the exploration and piecing the story together through scans approach MP1 and 2 took.
None of the characters were that interesting, although all were passable. I only felt slightly emotionally invested in the Bounty Hunter who used ice based weapons.

MP3 had great environments but felt less exploration oriented than the other games. The only collectables were missile expansions and worthless ship missile expansions. Some secret weapons like the missile combos in MP1 and 2 would have been cool, especially since missiles were weaker in this game.

The best way to look at MP3 is it's a very good game but slightly lacking compared to the previous MP games. I realize that MP3 was the only MP game to feature motion controls before the trilogy remakes of the game cube MP1 and 2 so that raises my score. MP3 was the easiest of the 3 but I didn't beat it on Hypermode difficulty and can't complain.
MP3 receives a 9.5 out of 10.

The Metroid Prime Trilogy as a whole gets 10/10. MP1 was 10/10, MP2 was 9/10 and MP3 is 9.5/10. You can down load it from E-shop for $20 American. 3 Metroid Prime games for $20- seriously get this game!

I never finished MP3 I'm sorry to say. It was the first MP game I played, which may have been a problem (I don't know you tell me).
I have no idea what people would consider to be spoilers, so just in case.

Spoiler

I got to a point where I couldn't figure out what to do next and I realised that I simply wasn't enjoying the game. It's not that I started not enjoying it at that point, it's that I hadn't been enjoying it for a while and it took that ever so small frustration to make me sit back and realise that I had no motivation for playing on. It's weird because I'm not the type of person to stop playing a game. Normally I'll play it all the way through, but this was a rare exception. I loved the motion controls, I thought they were really well done. My biggest gripe with the whole game was that shots didn't seem to make much of an impact, and this was a universal thing. Like, you could be blasting this one little grunt for ages before he'd go down, and they didn't seem to care that they were being shot, and then you'd try to avoid shots from them, and a lot of the time you just couldn't but even then it didn't seem to matter which made all combat and use of the aforementioned amazing motion controls super drawn out and boring. The only times I was ever low on health was when I used hypermode (e.g. in boss fights or specific enemies that required it) and even then, even with fully charged hyper mode shots, all the enemies were stupidly resilient. I would have preferred it way more if shots actually meant something. What I needed was way more enemies with way less health (not hyrule warriors style, please, I just mean way more in comparison) and then make Samus take way more damage for being shot, but then counter this with multiple ways to avoid and dodge shots so that way if you die it's because you weren't skilful enough, not because you used hypermode a bunch of times. Am I the only one that had a problem with this? And you know, fair call if I am. Because I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned when people talk about MP.

 

[Rizen]

^I agree the shots didn't pack much punch. In the first 2 MP games charging was more effective but in MP3 rapid fire was usually best. The missiles sucked too. The beam upgrades helped but not enough.
Many objectives were obscure and the only way to know was for the Aurora Unit to tell you to go to another planet or area. I disliked that part too.

I gave MP3 a score boost to be fair since the first 2 games didn't have motion controls originally. From the perspective of all the games as they play in the collection, MP3 would be my lowest scoring.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

^I agree the shots didn't pack much punch. In the first 2 MP games charging was more effective but in MP3 rapid fire was usually best. The missiles sucked too. The beam upgrades helped but not enough.
Many objectives were obscure and the only way to know was for the Aurora Unit to tell you to go to another planet or area. I disliked that part too.

I gave MP3 a score boost to be fair since the first 2 games didn't have motion controls originally. From the perspective of all the games as they play in the collection, MP3 would be my lowest scoring.

Ok cool, I'm glad I'm not the only one. Which MP do you think is best in this regard?

 

[zeldasmash]

Ok cool, I'm glad I'm not the only one. Which MP do you think is best in this regard?

For me it's Metroid Prime 3, but Super Metroid comes extremely close. I love both games, but i slightly prefer Metroid Prime 3 than Super Metroid.