Social Link checked the thread. Wow! This is a nice thread!

[Rizen]

IDK how active CO's scene is. It's been a year since I attended a live event
I had fun on wifi today Good connections are soooo much less stressful lol.

 

[Zelkam]

I got some good doubles games in. Link can tank really well in this game.

This gif is too good; I'm reposting it from the Zelda thread (strong language warning)
http://i.imgur.com/7B18Naw.gif

That one makes me laugh every times. As does this one:
http://i.imgur.com/WdbLYkF.gif

 

[Dumbfire]

Beats living in the Frozen Wastes of Québecland, where snow and ice have engulfed many a traveler looking for the mythical Tourneysword.

Yeah, there are sadly many desolate places in America without a great scene. Poor Blubba! And that's not to even begin with Elessar's situation -- lol! We have it pretty great here in the Netherlands, a small but densely populated country with good public transit and a fine scene. It's not exactly SoCal but I'd say I'm lucky.

 

[Elessar]

My scene makes me sad sometimes...specially because there is no scene unless I host a tourney. Well, there might be a tourney...MIGHT...once a year if I don't host one...

 

[Warlock*G]

My scene makes me sad sometimes...specially because there is no scene unless I host a tourney. Well, there might be a tourney...MIGHT...once a year if I don't host one...

I feel your pain.

Spoiler

How do you guys call this little dude already... "Gay"?

 

[Elessar]

Actually that's not Gay, that's Link from WW. This is Gay:

 

[smokebomb12]

He's an overated Ugly small Clone Of our Lord and savior Link! Toon link can go back to The hell with his clone self. I am tired off people Saying link is slow and toon link is a "Faster Better" Version of Link! He is gay The End.

 

[The Merc]

Nope.

WW Link is legit.

WW Link and Gay are totally different things.

I thought so. Casue I reme,ber one of you guys say to me earlier that WW Link and Toon Link are not one in the same, at least you your eyes.

Someone should write a Link Boards Historia.

I wouldn't mind that.

Scarier than this?

Those are the eyes of pure evil incarnate.

WHHHAAAAA!!!!!! NO, GET THAT THING AWAY FROM ME! NO, MEMORIES, COMING BACK. TERMINA! MUST, GET, AWAY!

*Plays song of time*

 

[Huggles828]

My scene makes me sad sometimes...specially because there is no scene unless I host a tourney. Well, there might be a tourney...MIGHT...once a year if I don't host one...

We used to have no scene at all. Then ESAM moved here and now we actually seem to have some people around who play Smash. Definitely not a top community, but at least there is one.

 

[Rizen]

For fun I'm figuring out Link's stats as a character for 'Death Battle' style things. This doesn't include non-canon games like Hyrule Warriors. Even without equipment Link has superhuman base stats.
LoZ games spoilers btw.

Spoiler

Strength:
Link's shown to be able to lift huge stone doors (TP, SS), throw gorons (made of solid rock), and pull himself around via clawshots without any strength enhancing equipment. That has to be at least a ton or two he can lift. He's matched behemoths like Demise and Firus (TP Goron Mine boss) in strength.
With power ups Link has shown to be able to throw elephants (LA) and at his strongest huge granite pillars with the gold gauntlets (OoT).
Link is very strong.

Speed:
Link isn't a super fast runner but probably can match athletic humans. He has a good sprint in SS.
With the Pegasus boots Link has shown he can run over mud and quicksand without sinking (Minish Cap). He gets a serious speed boost from his boots.

Endurance:
With the exception of SS, Link has incredible super human endurance. He's stayed awake for 3 strait days then battle the god like Majora. Link keeps going and going without tiring. He's scaled mountains, fought hoards of monsters etc.

Fighting Skills:
Link is 'the Batman of video games' in the sense that he isn't a super powerful character but manages to beat incredible powerful opponents through his skill, smarts and equipment. He's beaten Demi gods like Demise in a one on one sword duel. He has several reincarnated lifetimes of experience fighting all manners of foes. Anything from, 4 armed Stalfos, Gurodo thieves with twin scimitars, hoards of bokogoblins, to huge supernatural foes like Lava dragons and phantom shadow beasts.
Link's shown to instantly be incredibly skilled at any weapon he acquires (bow from TP hitting the pole in the distance in Kakariko for example). He's fought effectively with various weapons like whips, ball and chain, hammer, bow and arrows, great sword, etc but prefers the balanced sword and shield set up. He's shown to be the best marksman in several lands too.
Link can potentially adapt to any weapon and take on almost anything.

Durability:
Link has superhuman durability even without armor. He's survived in extremely hot areas (Goron Mines in TP) and extreme water pressure like 3 stories down in the OoT Water Temple. Link can tank hits from falling boulders (LoZ, OoT, etc) and huge monsters. He's even been shot out of a canon several miles into the desert (TP). This is all without equipment or armor.
With armors the damage Link takes is cut in half and then 1/4th (red ring, red mail). Link has walked on hot lave with the goron tunic (OoT). With Nayru's Love or the Magic armor (OoT and TP) Link is invincible for a time.

Magic:
Link uses magic he acquires but is usually a physical fighter. He has used a variety of magic spells ranging from enchanting arrows, warping (Farow's Wind, warp songs), transforming (Masks in MM, Wolf in TP, Fairy in Zelda 2, etc), attack magic (magic rod LoZ, Din's Fire OoT, etc) and useful puzzle solving magic like the lens of truth (seeing the invisible/through illusions), Cane of Burma (creates blocks) etc. Although not extremely powerful in magic, Link is very skilled and resourceful.

Intelligence:
Link has proven time after time to be very smart in dungeon busting, puzzle solving and fighting. He's an expert at exploiting an enemy's weakness. He's probably one of the smartest heroes in gaming in a practical sense.

Honor:
Link never gives up. He has shown to prefer not to rely on power (not using the Triforce vs Demise in SS final boss battle, only wishing to restore Hyrule on the Triforce then returning to a knight's life in ALttP). He's an all around good guy. Link often goes out of his way to help people.

Upper Limits:
Link has fought and beaten Ganon who had the complete Triforce in ALttP. He's beaten the Demigod Demise in hand to hand combat. Beaten Vaati when he had the wish granting Minish Cap and most of the light force. Taken on every boss in Skyward sword in a row without healing (thunder dragon challenge). Link can overcome god-like foes.

So for these reasons and more are why I believe Link can win Death Battles vs opponents like Cloud (FFVII) or Sora (Kingdom Hearts).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o2SV6ynJYQ
He can potentially win against most characters even foes seemingly more powerful than he. That isn't to say Link is guaranteed to win but he almost always can win.

 

[smokebomb12]

What do you mean Link can beat god like foes. LINK IS GOD HIMSELF!

 

[Zane the pure]

What do you mean Link can beat god like foes. LINK IS GOD HIMSELF!

Funny enough, with some knowledge of Japanese folklore you could very well make that assumption based on a fair comparison to none other than "Take Mikazuchi" or Kashima.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takemikazuchi

Makes sense of this pretty well too!

Confirmed, Link is Hyrule's God of Swords/Bravery/ and curiously Lightning.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Interesting... In LOZ 2 the thunder spell is his strongest spell too.

 

[Rizen]

The stupid cat is driving me crazy. I'll be glad when my mom gets back and can take her. She's been absurdly needy.
Sorry I've been under a lot of stress lately.

 

[The Merc]

What do you mean Link can beat god like foes. LINK IS GOD HIMSELF!

Meh. I prefer to see Link as a man how can beat Gods without even trying. Makes him look cooler XD.

For fun I'm figuring out Link's stats as a character for 'Death Battle' style things. This doesn't include non-canon games like Hyrule Warriors. Even without equipment Link has superhuman base stats.
LoZ games spoilers btw.

Spoiler

Strength:
Link's shown to be able to lift huge stone doors (TP, SS), throw gorons (made of solid rock), and pull himself around via clawshots without any strength enhancing equipment. That has to be at least a ton or two he can lift. He's matched behemoths like Demise and Firus (TP Goron Mine boss) in strength.
With power ups Link has shown to be able to throw elephants (LA) and at his strongest huge granite pillars with the gold gauntlets (OoT).
Link is very strong.

Speed:
Link isn't a super fast runner but probably can match athletic humans. He has a good sprint in SS.
With the Pegasus boots Link has shown he can run over mud and quicksand without sinking (Minish Cap). He gets a serious speed boost from his boots.

Endurance:
With the exception of SS, Link has incredible super human endurance. He's stayed awake for 3 strait days then battle the god like Majora. Link keeps going and going without tiring. He's scaled mountains, fought hoards of monsters etc.

Fighting Skills:
Link is 'the Batman of video games' in the sense that he isn't a super powerful character but manages to beat incredible powerful opponents through his skill, smarts and equipment. He's beaten Demi gods like Demise in a one on one sword duel. He has several reincarnated lifetimes of experience fighting all manners of foes. Anything from, 4 armed Stalfos, Gurodo thieves with twin scimitars, hoards of bokogoblins, to huge supernatural foes like Lava dragons and phantom shadow beasts.
Link's shown to instantly be incredibly skilled at any weapon he acquires (bow from TP hitting the pole in the distance in Kakariko for example). He's fought effectively with various weapons like whips, ball and chain, hammer, bow and arrows, great sword, etc but prefers the balanced sword and shield set up. He's shown to be the best marksman in several lands too.
Link can potentially adapt to any weapon and take on almost anything.

Durability:
Link has superhuman durability even without armor. He's survived in extremely hot areas (Goron Mines in TP) and extreme water pressure like 3 stories down in the OoT Water Temple. Link can tank hits from falling boulders (LoZ, OoT, etc) and huge monsters. He's even been shot out of a canon several miles into the desert (TP). This is all without equipment or armor.
With armors the damage Link takes is cut in half and then 1/4th (red ring, red mail). Link has walked on hot lave with the goron tunic (OoT). With Nayru's Love or the Magic armor (OoT and TP) Link is invincible for a time.

Magic:
Link uses magic he acquires but is usually a physical fighter. He has used a variety of magic spells ranging from enchanting arrows, warping (Farow's Wind, warp songs), transforming (Masks in MM, Wolf in TP, Fairy in Zelda 2, etc), attack magic (magic rod LoZ, Din's Fire OoT, etc) and useful puzzle solving magic like the lens of truth (seeing the invisible/through illusions), Cane of Burma (creates blocks) etc. Although not extremely powerful in magic, Link is very skilled and resourceful.

Intelligence:
Link has proven time after time to be very smart in dungeon busting, puzzle solving and fighting. He's an expert at exploiting an enemy's weakness. He's probably one of the smartest heroes in gaming in a practical sense.

Honor:
Link never gives up. He has shown to prefer not to rely on power (not using the Triforce vs Demise in SS final boss battle, only wishing to restore Hyrule on the Triforce then returning to a knight's life in ALttP). He's an all around good guy. Link often goes out of his way to help people.

Upper Limits:
Link has fought and beaten Ganon who had the complete Triforce in ALttP. He's beaten the Demigod Demise in hand to hand combat. Beaten Vaati when he had the wish granting Minish Cap and most of the light force. Taken on every boss in Skyward sword in a row without healing (thunder dragon challenge). Link can overcome god-like foes.

So for these reasons and more are why I believe Link can win Death Battles vs opponents like Cloud (FFVII) or Sora (Kingdom Hearts).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o2SV6ynJYQ
He can potentially win against most characters even foes seemingly more powerful than he. That isn't to say Link is guaranteed to win but he almost always can win.

I'll just quote what MatPat said about Link.

"it's like Chuck Norris and a Tornado had a green clad elf boy"

Just such an accurate description of Link.

 

[ShinnyMetal]

Did my first tourney. Got gimped to hell by Mario lol

 

[Rizen]

SSB4 voice actors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfuqUPeULbY

How high would you guys rank Link, just curious? I'm thinking maybe top 25.

What are your thoughts on custom moves being legal or not?
I'm against customs as the norm but okay with them as side events. Mainly because it already takes a long time to get all the matches done in tourneys and customs would extend each game and setup even further. Tourneys I've gone to have had several events like P:M singles and dubs, Brawl singles and dubs and others and it takes a very long time to finish everything.
Also the metagame should be based around adapting to what characters have not introducing new moves.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Customs on is the norm in Australia. Speaking from experience, the first time we had a customs tournament it took a while to transfer the standard custom movesets to all the wii-u's that didn't have them, but since then having customs tournaments hasn't impacted in any significant way to the running time. Because we've always had them there's no sense in which we are 'introducing new moves'. Link doesn't get much out of customs, in fact I'd say he does worse overall in a customs environment, but I'm still pro-customs. It makes the game that much more interesting and makes it so there is more potential for new discoveries and metagame development.

 

[Huggles828]

Not a big fan of customs personally. It just needlessly complicates the game. I get that it can be fun and exciting, but so can playing smash just for fun with a few beers and items turned on. And frankly, as i get older, i don't have the spare time to learn multiple movesets for 50 or so characters. It would water down the level of play much like trying to main several characters at the same time would; by dividing your time and effort. If they want to have custom tourneys as side events that's fine, but I'd prefer if they leave the game the way it is for most tourneys.

Plus, where i really see the possibility for a character to break out and become this game's mk is when you can alter their movesets.

And Rizen, i would probably put link in mid or lower mid on the tier list. He's okay, but has weaknesses top tier characters can expose. When you look at how many characters are still better than him it's hard to justify putting him higher than that imo, although he has received a serious buff from brawl.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

You generally don't have to learn anywhere near all of the custom moves. Think about it. There will be one or two recognised optimal movesets for each character, and personal preference might mean that you'll get the odd person using a different custom special, but the others that they're using you'll already know. Before the match people tell each other if they are using any custom moves and what they do etc. This has been the case in my experience. You don't end up needing to learn that much more, and it doesn't take long to adapt to a move you've never encountered before. Scare tactics like 'the coming of the next MK' can work just as easily for me; perhaps the MK of this game would happen in a non-customs environment, and then some characters in a pro-customs environment would bring balance to the force; or perhaps multiple characters will get improvements that by themselves would have made them the MK of the game, but now there are many of them. But that's all just silly theory and speculation at this point.

 

[Rizen]

Guys Smash is serious business!

/jk but seriously though, competitive players want balance and consistency. Customs don't balance the game and make it less consistent. Some stages are fun like Temple but they're not good competitively; that's why we use a set stage list. At high levels I agree with this http://smashboards.com/threads/zeld...-went-on-strike.344739/page-742#post-18807518 . There will be extreme camping and exploitation of a few moves. Customs will be very tedious without adding balance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPOntBXIphk
Lol, "there's a car driving around in the background and I see a bird. That's the post office..."
-SSB4 commentary while Mario waits for an opportunity to high pressure FLUDD Mac.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Temple is fun? And yeah, I think there are good arguments out there that say that customs do balance the game. I also think that most arguments that are against customs are unwarranted. Seeing as we're linking to other people's arguments now, take this satirical piece of work for example. http://smashboards.com/threads/a-mo...aracters-should-not-be-allowed-at-evo.392853/
That match you linked is pretty much how anyone should verse a mac, custom or no. It's always going to be a boring match with people exploiting his weakness in the air by camping on the platforms and trying to get him off stage. Otherwise you're not doing it right. The fault lies in mac's design, not in customs.

 

[Rizen]

Temple is fun? And yeah, I think there are good arguments out there that say that customs do balance the game. I also think that most arguments that are against customs are unwarranted. Seeing as we're linking to other people's arguments now, take this satirical piece of work for example. http://smashboards.com/threads/a-mo...aracters-should-not-be-allowed-at-evo.392853/
That match you linked is pretty much how anyone should verse a mac, custom or no. It's always going to be a boring match with people exploiting his weakness in the air by camping on the platforms and trying to get him off stage. Otherwise you're not doing it right. The fault lies in mac's design, not in customs.

High Pressure FLUDD is a lot stronger than normal (at 70% it can push characters into the blast zone I'm told) and many customs add windboxes. I'll just link to the Zelda discussion of customs
http://smashboards.com/threads/zeld...-went-on-strike.344739/page-743#post-18808089
But the general consensus is Mac is viable without customs but would get wrecked too hard with them.

With customs the exploitations become what the game revolves around. The hyper degree of some moves will make other moves not worth using. Why ever smash a Mac when your character has a wind box and Bthrow? Wind boxes hurt Mac but other moves will skew the metagame in other ways. Villager's Extreme Balloon trip was used to avoid encounters and waste a lot of time in a recent tournament. What about Palutena's light weight for keep away? SSB4 lost planking as a time waster but customs can waste a lot of time.
Many customs also guarantee a huge % of damage from combos. Then some are OP moves like Shulk's extreme counter that can kill an opponent who jabs at low %s. Or if Bowser's Klaw quick lunge (IDK the name) is available why would bowser use any other moves to KO?
The problem with that satire for example is it could be used to argue items or stages should be legal. The game wasn't balanced around customs. Adding options that don't balance the game and in fact imbalance it are not good competitively. Customs add variety but so would items and more stages.
Why allow customs that take more time than otherwise to setup matches and don't balance the game?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

And so you're saying that without customs, people won't exploit the best parts of their character and make that what their meta revolves around?

Mac is a bad/extreme example though. Why exactly are we trying to balance the game around Mac? Are we about to ban Duck hunt just because Mac does poorly on it? There has to come a point where people say, you know what, maybe this is just a bad character.

Customs are fairly balanced in their own way; for every pro there is a con (it's just that sometimes that con is not immediately obvious, or people find ways to circumvent the con). My understanding of the recent tournament is that the stalling Villager tactics didn't work on competent players that adapted to it, and this was the first time they had encountered it; and you know, there is a such thing as an early metagame which in turn requires a grace period in which people learn, experiment and adapt etc. It's completely foreseeable that some people would be beaten by such tactics so early on. I have someone in my scene that uses customs palutena so I'm fully aware of what she is capable of when you combine lightweight with super speed on a stage with platforms. Yet you don't hear me calling for a ban on customs. Lightweight makes Palutena take more damage and die earlier, so there's a risk involved for her too, and then there is the cooldown to be reckoned with which leaves her a sitting duck, and yes, it can be avoided by refreshing on platforms, but this tactic can be stopped if you're vigilant.

See I don't even think about customs as an addition. Each character has at their disposal certain moves, and those moves (in my mind at least) include the customs just as easily as they would include their default specials. Oh but you have to unlock them so they are therefore treated differently? How about unlockable characters?
The game wasn't balanced with the competitive community in mind anyway, which is why slower characters will always suffer in the long run, so why are we worried about the game developer's idea of balance?

I've already said that the 'time' to set up customs is not a big deal at all. It's so small that it's not even a point that can be made. We didn't make a big deal about people setting up custom controls in Brawl, and that takes way way longer.

 

[_Relapse_]

@ Huggles828 was the tourney you entered the Smash 4 our sins one?

 

[Zane the pure]

Since I don't plan on using anyone other than Link in tournament I'm not for customs in the long run, but I see no harm in allowing them to be experimented for now so everyone can realize what is OP and not, so we all come to our senses eventually.

Link's Customs are not a game changer the way they are for other characters.

 

[Dumbfire]

I want muh Melee rang -- that, and I have been polishing my Palu since the start of the game: way ahead of you all! That'll teach you for laughing at me when I used her in tourney.

 

[Rizen]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I see how some characters like Ganon are better with customs in a balanced way but overall customs make the game less balanced, with bad MUs being worse and tourneys take longer.

 

[sasook]

What an objective statement.

 

[Rizen]

^Thread's full of them today lol.

 

[Huggles828]

@ Huggles828 was the tourney you entered the Smash 4 our sins one?

No it's Clemson Smash Series #4 I think.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Link's customs are very sitautional. Unlike others where it potentially makes them better, Link's customs give very noticeable trade-offs. For instance, Charizard isn't the best character around but dragon rush does nothing but improve him (not by much but still). Link's Up-B is perfect the way it is but if you wanted more knockback, you have to sacrifice some serious recovery (or vice versa).

I'm very iffy on customs right now for that reason. Some customs are entirely fair like Link's. For others it can potentially overpower a character. Still, you'll never know if you don't try.

 

[smokebomb12]

I don't see why we can't use Custom Moves, But not custom items. That would be fair to me.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

If we're going to be objective about this, we can't be all like 'oh but my main doesn't do well so I say no to customs', or 'but I play a lot of wifi which means I'm never exposed to customs and I don't want to be taken by surprise every time I go to a tourney, so I say no to customs', or 'I'm not bothered, so I say no to customs'. If you factor in the extra few seconds it takes to pick a custom, and occasionally at the very start of the tournament the amount of time it takes to transfer a custom set from a 3ds to the wii-u for that pool, then throw in there what you have already admitted to as being 'earlier kills' it works out about the same amount of time spent at the tourney, if not shorter. As for the 'bad matchups made worse', I can think of many currently bad matchups that are made more even to counter that point.

 

[The Merc]

*sigh*

I am really hating Sakuria at this moment in time

And so you're saying that without customs, people won't exploit the best parts of their character and make that what their meta revolves around?

Mac is a bad/extreme example though. Why exactly are we trying to balance the game around Mac? Are we about to ban Duck hunt just because Mac does poorly on it? There has to come a point where people say, you know what, maybe this is just a bad character.

Customs are fairly balanced in their own way; for every pro there is a con (it's just that sometimes that con is not immediately obvious, or people find ways to circumvent the con). My understanding of the recent tournament is that the stalling Villager tactics didn't work on competent players that adapted to it, and this was the first time they had encountered it; and you know, there is a such thing as an early metagame which in turn requires a grace period in which people learn, experiment and adapt etc. It's completely foreseeable that some people would be beaten by such tactics so early on. I have someone in my scene that uses customs palutena so I'm fully aware of what she is capable of when you combine lightweight with super speed on a stage with platforms. Yet you don't hear me calling for a ban on customs. Lightweight makes Palutena take more damage and die earlier, so there's a risk involved for her too, and then there is the cooldown to be reckoned with which leaves her a sitting duck, and yes, it can be avoided by refreshing on platforms, but this tactic can be stopped if you're vigilant.

See I don't even think about customs as an addition. Each character has at their disposal certain moves, and those moves (in my mind at least) include the customs just as easily as they would include their default specials. Oh but you have to unlock them so they are therefore treated differently? How about unlockable characters?
The game wasn't balanced with the competitive community in mind anyway, which is why slower characters will always suffer in the long run, so why are we worried about the game developer's idea of balance?

I've already said that the 'time' to set up customs is not a big deal at all. It's so small that it's not even a point that can be made. We didn't make a big deal about people setting up custom controls in Brawl, and that takes way way longer.

Little mac is a fun character to play. I like him . He aint broken

 

[ShinnyMetal]

If we're going to be objective about this, we can't be all like 'oh but my main doesn't do well so I say no to customs', or 'but I play a lot of wifi which means I'm never exposed to customs and I don't want to be taken by surprise every time I go to a tourney, so I say no to customs', or 'I'm not bothered, so I say no to customs'. If you factor in the extra few seconds it takes to pick a custom, and occasionally at the very start of the tournament the amount of time it takes to transfer a custom set from a 3ds to the wii-u for that pool, then throw in there what you have already admitted to as being 'earlier kills' it works out about the same amount of time spent at the tourney, if not shorter. As for the 'bad matchups made worse', I can think of many currently bad matchups that are made more even to counter that point.

So much truth. I am personally excited to just see characters that are hardly used get more recognition.

[accidental double post]

 

[Rizen]

If we're going to be objective about this, we can't be all like 'oh but my main doesn't do well so I say no to customs', or 'but I play a lot of wifi which means I'm never exposed to customs and I don't want to be taken by surprise every time I go to a tourney, so I say no to customs', or 'I'm not bothered, so I say no to customs'.

Who said that?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Who said that?

You're right, no-one said it openly. Think of it as the unspoken biases underlying the arguments thus far.

 

[Rizen]

...okay I'm not sure where you got that but there doesn't seem to be anything more to be said about customs I haven't already said.

I hope I don't have to pay for Mewtwo, only having the wii u version of SSB4 (I will :/). I already got a Mewtwo trophy so he might not have single player mode representation.

 

[link7]

Log in to my account, notice I have 11 notifications, all likes from Jasudin.
Stop slacking off.