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[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Does anyone else think that when comparing Zelda games we should judge/list the top-down ones (e.g. ALttP) separately from the '3D following behind the character exploration' ones (e.g. OoT)? They're just not strictly comparable I feel. For example the puzzles are completely different, even when comparing simple block pushing puzzles that are present in both, the way they work, the way you have to think about them to work them out is completely different. You get a lot more information from a top-down perspective so they can afford to make things more difficult as a puzzle. I should probably explain that last sentence. Take two types of mazes; one is on paper and the other is like a hedge maze that you have to walk through. Immediately it may seem obvious to you that the maze on paper is allowed to be more difficult as it is easier to solve because you have all the information and don't have to remember anything necessarily. What I prefer is for the puzzle itself to be difficult as opposed to having difficulty solving an easier puzzle. There's a crucial difference there. I'm not even suggesting that either is any better than the other, and in fact that's the point I made originally, because they're not comparable. They are completely different kinds of games. Any talk comparing ALttP with OoT is pointless because they are practically in different genres; comparing OoT with say SS on the other hand, well that makes more sense.
Anyway, I've always preferred the top-down ones in general, especially Oracle of Seasons, Oracle of Ages, Link's Awakening and A link to the past.

 

[Elessar]

You are absolutely right. However, that only applies if all you take into account is gameplay and mechanics. Personally, I take into account things like mood setting (lightning, layout of things, look, etc), music and plot when deciding which one I prefer. For me, gameplay is almost secondary. True, that is not how it should be and maybe it's not really how it even is for me (that I may rate gamplay higher than I say I do), but when thinking about which Zelda I like the most I rarely think int he terms of "which puzzle was the hardest or the best, etc". I think more along the lines of "which one had more moments that made me feel epic/sad/cry/angry/etc". The music is great in all of them, always, the only difference is that some themes are a bit better than other according to personal taste, but I'm pretty sure that nobody can honestly say "I hated the music in this LoZ".

So I agree with you...Fox is openly deceptive (god your name is long...how can I shorten it, Fox or FIOD?), when comparing mechanics and gameplay, they just can't be compared. But story wise, I think that they can.

Also, I agree that top down have always been better than 3D ones. I mean, I can't recall ever being stuck in a 3D Zelda, but plenty of times I've gotten stuck in a top down one.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

One of my favorites is the Clock Tower song from Majora's Mask. Oh and you can't forget the Lost Woods Theme, such a classic. The Hyrule Field song from Twilight Princess is probably my favorite of all time though. One of the best LoZ's in my opinion.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

@ Elessar : Ha, yeah don't bother with the full name. Fox or FIOD are fine. The aus smash scene has always called me Foxy. Whatever you're comfortable with.
I know exactly what you're saying and in fact that's another big divergent point between the two kinds of games. I actually think that the 3D games offer a better platform for story, character development, and scenes that really stick with you. The camera angle is much more personal, and this is reflected in the games almost necessarily. So I actually think that even story-wise, the games shouldn't be compared tbh just because of the divergence in genres. The one thing that is completely unaffected by the camera angle is the music. And even then you'd have to give the older games a handicap because of the limitations around when they came out, and most of the older games just so happen to be top-down.

Edit: I can't wait to find out if Link is able to Boost Toss with the aid of a c-stick (I think we used to call it 'Bomb Slide'). If you can, it may mean that Link will be able to do something similar to Toon's 'JC Throw forwards, Dash forwards, Jump and catch bomb with aerial then cancel the landing lag with a bomb throw'. That would be sick. A lot of it would depend on the slide you get though because Link throws the bomb pretty hard, and so re-catching it after a Forward Boost Toss would be crazy if possible.

 

[Elessar]

Well, while I agree that for presentation of story the 3d games are better, we can still rate story by itself, as in plot. Imagine it as reading only the script of the games. That's what I meant.

 

[Lúcio]

if anybody wants a game, PM me
doesn't have to be online 1 v 1, just anything really
only 1 person of my friend list has SSB4 and it's a little sucky playing randomers all time time

 

[Zelkam]

I have to agree with both of you guys concerning 2D vs 3D. Both of them are very different when you're comparing things like, gameplay, puzzles, mechanics, and even the way the map is laid out. I've gotta say that I do lean more towards the top down 2D games. It feels to me like I can focus more on the combat and the puzzles because I don't have a whole other plane of view to worry about.

Also, I would love to see a new top down 2D Zelda on a console. At this point its almost become an unspoken rule that 2D=handheld and 3D=console. I remember when I played Four Sword Adventures, there were the points when the screen would zoom out and I would think to myself - how cool would it be to have a game where the camera was fixed at this distance. Because the screens on handhelds are so small the camera usually has to stay zoomed in so that you can tell what's going on. But on the big screen they could make it to where you could see 4x as far as on a tiny handheld screen. That, in turn, would mean they could make bigger worlds, bigger temples, and even bigger puzzles.

 

[Drunken_Master]

 

[Naroghin]

I hate to stay on this topic, but I must respectfully disagree that just because games include inherently or vastly different points of view or mediums of expression that these differences cannot be compared and a "more desired" or "better" of the two be chosen. I tend to see that most people throw away any comparison in these areas simply because it is difficult or complicated to find a fair way to compare these, because one must first define these attributes and lay out what they are the most effective for expressing, throw in what they may supposedly be trying to express, and then adjudicate them on the effectiveness or character thereof. Though I must also point out that some tend to just prefer one PoV or genre over the other, simply because it "feels better" or "does more for" the person deliberating, and these ideas can be just as valid as the former because games are, at the end of the day, all about having fun.

I prefer the 3D-action-camera style PoV to the top-down or side-scroller PoVs because when I play a video game I want to do things, and 3D-action-camera PoV tends to lend itself best to making things you do feel awesome. However, I must also include that a major point of 3d games seems to be that they are as close a representation as possible to what the actual content is, while 2d games tend to be much more about an interpretation of the content. For this reason I am able to rank OoT under TP and AoL because the N64 was at a much more primitive time in 3d rendering and simply does not stand up well compared to the graphics of TP, and the 3d perspective is simply not as conducive to imagination as the 2d setting of AoL.

I guess all I'm saying is that I believe one can compare apples and oranges; one must simply be careful and deliberate in doing so, realizing that larger-picture characteristics are being discussed.

 

[Drunken_Master]

Anyone else really dislike that there's no white tunic anymore?

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Technically, Link's Skyloft Costume IS white...

 

[Zelkam]

Anyone else really dislike that there's no white tunic anymore?

As someone who always used the white tunic...you have no idea.

 

[Lúcio]

Anyone else really dislike that there's no white tunic anymore?

are you not satisfied by being able to play as fierce deity link?

which tunics do everyone else use?
it's a bit sad but mine depend on my mood.

for a normal game i'll use original, green tunic link
if i'm in a bad mood i'll use shadow link.
and if i feel proper up for it or i'm severely try-harding, i'll use fierce deity link.

 

[Elessar]

I use red. I have always used red (even in OoT I would run around with the red on always) and will always use red.

And Shin, I thought about you when I saw no more white. Though you have Ordon Link and FD...it's something xD

 

[Deleted member]

I use red. I have always used red (even in OoT I would run around with the red on always) and will always use red.

And Shin, I thought about you when I saw no more white. Though you have Ordon Link and FD...it's something xD

I think you mean Skyloft Link.

Spoiler: Ordon Link

Spoiler: Skyloft Link

Spoiler: That Smash Costume

 

[Elessar]

Yeha, that. I got confused.

 

[Scabe]

Just gonna un-sticky this thread. I feel like we have too much stickies. And this thread is pretty popular anyways and so it will get bumped up pretty often.

 

[Huggles828]

Two, forget about damn tier lists. The game is too new, there is no meta game yet, people have only the barest idea of the postential of the chars so far.

Ha, well, barest idea of potential was really all I was looking for. I haven't played a game of Smash 4 yet, I just wanted to know what the idea was so far. Just kinda curious to see if they'd had anything shape up so far.

OoT
LttP
SS
WW
Link's Awakening

And you gotta go with Blue Link. Blue Link is the best.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I hate to stay on this topic, but I must respectfully disagree that just because games include inherently or vastly different points of view or mediums of expression that these differences cannot be compared and a "more desired" or "better" of the two be chosen. I tend to see that most people throw away any comparison in these areas simply because it is difficult or complicated to find a fair way to compare these, because one must first define these attributes and lay out what they are the most effective for expressing, throw in what they may supposedly be trying to express, and then adjudicate them on the effectiveness or character thereof. Though I must also point out that some tend to just prefer one PoV or genre over the other, simply because it "feels better" or "does more for" the person deliberating, and these ideas can be just as valid as the former because games are, at the end of the day, all about having fun.

I prefer the 3D-action-camera style PoV to the top-down or side-scroller PoVs because when I play a video game I want to do things, and 3D-action-camera PoV tends to lend itself best to making things you do feel awesome. However, I must also include that a major point of 3d games seems to be that they are as close a representation as possible to what the actual content is, while 2d games tend to be much more about an interpretation of the content. For this reason I am able to rank OoT under TP and AoL because the N64 was at a much more primitive time in 3d rendering and simply does not stand up well compared to the graphics of TP, and the 3d perspective is simply not as conducive to imagination as the 2d setting of AoL.

I guess all I'm saying is that I believe one can compare apples and oranges; one must simply be careful and deliberate in doing so, realizing that larger-picture characteristics are being discussed.

I agree that we certainly can compare them in the sense that there's really nothing stopping us and because they do share some very general things e.g. they are video games, they have Link as the protagonist, they have music, they have story etc, and in this way we are certainly able to compare them, but does it nonetheless make sense for us to compare them? I don't think it does because more than often it will be pointless. To make my point clearer, and I admit that this may involve a slightly more extreme example (which is still helpful for making the point so long as it is used to highlight the differences I'm talking about and not used as a strict comparison), take for example the super mario rpg's or the side scrolling super mario world's and try to compare them with the 3D adventures like super mario 64 or super mario galaxy. Sure you can feel free to compare them, but you'd have to do so at such a general and restricted level that there is no longer much point in doing so, and more to the point, the comparison would be at all times at great risk of being influenced by personal experiences which while helpful in a more specific discussion (such as comparing OoT with SS) would only be detrimental when having a very restricted discussion like the one you correctly proposed. It comes down to a fairly well known idea in philosophy that most supposed 'arguments' and differences of opinion stem from two people thinking they are talking about the same thing whereas in fact they are actually talking about different things, and if they both fully understood what the other was talking about, more than often they would find that they actually agree. Comparing two games from different genres is much like this; it's difficult and it often ultimately doesn't say much; it leads to pointless discussions where people wrongly believe they have different opinions about the same thing etc. To clarify, I do actually agree with you; it is possible to compare the two and even discuss what is the more desired/effective genre etc. Earlier for example I said that the 3D games are better at telling stories and better at character development almost necessarily because of the more personal nature of the camera angle and what this allows the developers to do; I even said that the top-down games are allowed to have more difficult puzzles due to the camera angle necessarily allowing for this because it gives you more information etc. These are both examples of comparisons that can be discussed. But I would stress the difficulty in having such a conversation and the restricted use that you could even make of any such agreements. If two people wanted to talk about whether OoT or SS had a better story, then they can go for it; but if someone said that OoT had a better story than say Oracle of Seasons, couldn't the other guy just say, "So what?". Maybe the other guy wasn't going into that game wanting a good story necessarily, or maybe it was secondary to what he wanted to get out of it. And that's because there is a difference in genres. The two guys will just be talking past each other because neither agrees on what they want to get out of a game, what they believe makes a game good, yet for some reason they assume that the other person means that same thing as they do when they say 'good game'. If instead one of them said "If the definition of a good game included a good story (so on and so on explaining what they believe is a good game) then OoT would be better than OoS" then they would both agree on this and instead of comparing the two games they would have a discussion on the underlying difference of opinion being what makes a game good. I'm sure I could explain this better...

 

[Unkown Hero]

As someone who always used the white tunic...you have no idea.

I thought it was a light purple?

anyway, my fav is either Skyloft link. Because I really love SS. And I mean REALLY love SS. Fi's theme gets me every time.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Fi's theme gets me every time.

That ending, with Fi's farewell playing. "God dammit Fi, I wasn't supposed to become emotionally attached to you. When did that happen?" It was very well done. Very moving.

 

[Unkown Hero]

That ending, with Fi's farewell playing. "God dammit Fi, I wasn't supposed to become emotionally attached to you. When did that happen?" It was very well done. Very moving.

Yeah, I was at the end of the game, just completed it (with great satisfaction) and everyone was happy and celebrating. Then Fi comes and says 'My services are no longer required and I shall sleep forever' Think I absolutely hated her, I realized I actually began to grow on her. I was like 'no, don't go Fi, I need you'. And when I though she was gone, she came back and said one line that I will remember forever

"May we meet again in another life"

I tried not to cry, but I couldn't, it just felt wrong not to cry.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yeah I couldn't agree more. Let's just say I was happy I was alone at the time.

 

[Zelkam]

@ Fox Is Openly Deceptive Regarding your discussion post, my only question is: can you really consider the 2D and 3D Zelda's two different genres? True, they might have all of the differences that have already been mentioned, but they're both still adventure games at their core, right?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

In my original post I said they are "practically in different genres" and I guess I got lazy and began to leave out the 'practically' part. Consider it a 'for lack of a better word' kind of thing. What matters is the idea being expressed rather than the literal interpretation.

 

[Lúcio]

I use red. I have always used red (even in OoT I would run around with the red on always) and will always use red.

i battled a red-tunic link earlier and it made me think of you :D
i hope it wasn't actually you though because he/she wasn't very good...

also, i got a question.
anybody else been banned for being "idle"?
i was up against this guy i'd already beaten about 5 times and he chose toon link (i was link)
he decided to projectile spam me so we started having an arrow war for lols
i got him to like 200%, about to finish him off and i got disconnected for being idle

my question is that how can the game deem reapeated shooting of arrows to be idle?
surely it can distinguish between somebody not moving or pressing any buttons and somebody clearly being active and shooting arrows?

 

[Zelkam]

In my original post I said they are "practically in different genres" and I guess I got lazy and began to leave out the 'practically' part. Consider it a 'for lack of a better word' kind of thing. What matters is the idea being expressed rather than the literal interpretation.

Gotcha, I must have missed that part.

also, i got a question.
anybody else been banned for being "idle"?
i was up against this guy i'd already beaten about 5 times and he chose toon link (i was link)
he decided to projectile spam me so we started having an arrow war for lols
i got him to like 200%, about to finish him off and i got disconnected for being idle

my question is that how can the game deem reapeated shooting of arrows to be idle?
surely it can distinguish between somebody not moving or pressing any buttons and somebody clearly being active and shooting arrows?

That really weird, dude. The ban system for smash needs some serious work. I've heard stories of people getting banned by picking peach, and other getting banned for up to 72 years.

 

[Lúcio]

Gotcha, I must have missed that part.

That really weird, dude. The ban system for smash needs some serious work. I've heard stories of people getting banned by picking peach, and other getting banned for up to 72 years.

haha, i really don't get it - at least if it banned me for spamming that's fair enough
however why give characters abilities and then penalise players for it?

 

[Drunken_Master]

The Peach thing was patched weeks ago, lol. Not sure about the lengthy bans or what causes them but it was probably patched too.

 

[ScizorVX]

just in case you guys didn't know item cancelling is removed in wii u no more cancels :L

 

[Rizen]

just in case you guys didn't know item cancelling is removed in wii u no more cancels :L

Another small part of me has died inside. So all lag canceling with bombs or just the landing canceling?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Please tell me it isn't so... Do I even want the game now?

 

[Zelkam]

just in case you guys didn't know item cancelling is removed in wii u no more cancels :L

Source?

 

[ScizorVX]

Another small part of me has died inside. So all lag canceling with bombs or just the landing canceling?

all landing cancels greninja's Shadow sneak, peach and TL/Links bomb cancel with bomb pull i was told by the socal top players who went to the west hollywood wii u smash event and a friend of mine who plays link told me he wasn't able to do it, but you can z-drop without a laggy zair now and now your hook shot drops to the ground like in brawl not like in the 3ds where it shoots and comes back without dropping

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I'm calling troll.

 

[ScizorVX]

I'm calling troll.

k believe me or not its happening L: you'll see in 12 days if you're in the US L:

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I guess I just would have expected something as huge as this to have blown up all over the boards by now, but I'm not seeing anything anywhere. Except here.

 

[Zane the pure]

If we had a combination of both the Z-drop without Z-air and our toss cancel it'd make Link's aerials a lot safer.

 

[Unkown Hero]

I'm calling troll.

Same, Sakuria clear (or the Announcer) said that the characters on the 3ds version and wii u version are the EXACT same, mean bomb lag cancel should be back. If it's not, I might have to think about dropping Toon Link.

 

[Lúcio]

all landing cancels greninja's Shadow sneak, peach and TL/Links bomb cancel with bomb pull i was told by the socal top players who went to the west hollywood wii u smash event and a friend of mine who plays link told me he wasn't able to do it, but you can z-drop without a laggy zair now and now your hook shot drops to the ground like in brawl not like in the 3ds where it shoots and comes back without dropping

that seems like a pretty big, pretty unnecessary character change between (essentially) the same game merely on different platforms.

i don't believe that to be true; doesn't seem like the kind of thing they would do.