LGBT Smashers

[kenhead]

Me

I'm gay. Thank god I got that off my chest. I didn't say it right away because I was afraid some of my friends would be on this sight, but I now realize they probably won't look at this thread. I am only 15 and still have a lot to go through. I do not have a boyfriend and I've never even kissed a boy. I am not openly gay. I want to "come out", but I don't know how I should do it. It's hard because you don't know if people will be supportive and understand, or hate you for the rest of your life. My brother is the only one that knows and he is supportive. My parents would definately not like the fact that I am gay, but I don't think they would kick me out of the house or anything like that. I do not fit into most gay steriotypes. I don't have that voice or love disney movies, although Aladin is a pretty good movie, and I play sports. In fact even my gay friends have not a clue that I am gay and they make strait jokes directed towards me which makes me laugh because I'm not strait. I hate it when my strait friends ask me if a girl looks hot or has a big a*s or something along those lines. When they do (which happens on a daily basis) I always just hesitate and say something stupid that changes the subject. I hate it when I have a crush on someone and I know I can never have a relationship with them not because they don't like me but because they don't like guys. I am an athiest that goes to Catholic church every Sunday. I would like advice on how to come out so I can get on with my life and mabye get a boyfriend or something. I feel like I'm the only one that has not experience loveing someone and them loving you back and your also attracted to one another. It seems like that would be the greatest thing in the world.

 

[SU_Remo]

Hey Kenhead,

I'm really glad you got up the courage to come out and tell us your story in the thread. I want you to know that you're aren't alone in anything you're doing. If you know you're ready, coming out in one crazy process, but it's a big, important step in your life. No one can really tell you how exactly to do it. It all depends on what you're comfortable with and the people whom you'll have to deal with.

I was lucky enough to find a gay friend to confide in and we came out together. If you have a friend you can trust enough to tell, you should go for it. It feels great after each person you tell. But, it's not all gumdrops and daises, heh. There might be people who aren't so keen about the idea. I had a really good friend who I came out to in high school. I haven't talked to her since I did. But, don't fret. ^_^ You're real friends will love you for who you are~

I've gotta jet suddenly, so I don't get to finish this, but I'd love to chat. AIM me sometime. I love meeting new people. And again, I'm glad you came to this thread and was able to talk about all of this. Hope you feel better because of it. ^_^

 

[kenhead]

Hey my peops

Hey Kenhead,

I'm really glad you got up the courage to come out and tell us your story in the thread. I want you to know that you're aren't alone in anything you're doing. If you know you're ready, coming out in one crazy process, but it's a big, important step in your life. No one can really tell you how exactly to do it. It all depends on what you're comfortable with and the people whom you'll have to deal with.

I was lucky enough to find a gay friend to confide in and we came out together. If you have a friend you can trust enough to tell, you should go for it. It feels great after each person you tell. But, it's not all gumdrops and daises, heh. There might be people who aren't so keen about the idea. I had a really good friend who I came out to in high school. I haven't talked to her since I did. But, don't fret. ^_^ You're real friends will love you for who you are~

I've gotta jet suddenly, so I don't get to finish this, but I'd love to chat. AIM me sometime. I love meeting new people. And again, I'm glad you came to this thread and was able to talk about all of this. Hope you feel better because of it. ^_^

Thanks KingReMO. I feel a lot better after posting here. Even though It's a small step I had a lot held inside that I had to get out and this was the perfect way to do it. This is the greatest thread ever and I hope that it never gets closed. I want to stay in touch with you guys and get some brawl codes. As for Smash I main Falco mostly and secondary Fox and Marth. I actually had to write the last post I wrote 3 times because my dad came in once and another time my sister came back from college for the weekend. She's the coolest person ever. It got kind of agrivating writing it over and over again. My whole body was shaking all 3 times I guess it was cause I was nervous, but I definately wasn't cold. For music, I listen to rock mostly. Blink 182, Linkin Park, Angles and Airwaves, Postal Service, Green Day, Metro Station, and stuff like that. Travis Barker is the coolest. He is to drums as Ken is to smash. For a hot video game character I would have to go with fox, but I'm not too into that kind of stuff or am I .. You guys are the coolest. It's great how we can just talk about whatever we want here without getting judged badly.

 

[Best101]

lol this is hilarious. 57 page thread on gay folks and their lives. Don't worry I won't start any trouble so I'll leave this thread for good before I hurt someone's feelings.

Just to let everyone know before hand, if you're gay don't let me know in your posts around forums because I will try to hurt your feelings. I'm against gays AND lesbians. It may sound a bit harsh but that's about the only way I can show my hatred towards this, and this is pretty much the only way you can get on my bad side

 

[kenhead]

lol this is hilarious. 57 page thread on gay folks and their lives. Don't worry I won't start any trouble so I'll leave this thread for good before I hurt someone's feelings.

Just to let everyone know before hand, if you're gay don't let me know in your posts around forums because I will try to hurt your feelings. I'm against gays AND lesbians. It may sound a bit harsh but that's about the only way I can show my hatred towards this, and this is pretty much the only way you can get on my bad side

That is absolutely ridiculous. how can someone get on your bad side just because they were born liking guys. I bet you many of your friends are gay and when you find out everyone will hate you and you will hate them. What an as*holeish thing to say. Get off this thread now!

 

[Kix]

Yeah and the point is that you have really given no evidence that the definition you're trying to defend "A contract between a consenting man and woman of the proper age who are not closely related in which the two members have equal legal status" should be considered the historical one. Pretty much every part of that definition has varied in different times and places. Child marriage is practiced in some places even today. Arranged marriages were long the norm in certain places and social groups (non-consensual). In many societies marriages between even brother and sister were common (for example, Hawaii before Western colonization, Ancient Egypt, just off the top of my head). Hell, even the Bible's story of Genesis necessitates close incest in at least two places (after the Garden of Eden and after the flood). Married women were long considered the man's property, and not allowed to own property and required to obey their husband, required to give him sex (marital **** was not a crime), etc. This is probably still true to some extent in some places. And some Native American and African societies had same sex unions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_same-sex_unions).

When I provide examples of ways in which people thought of marriage as being different from that, you simply respond that this was a "misuse" of marriage. Your argument has been disproved, and you're now changing to an unfalsifiable strategy - whenever confronted with evidence that my definition of marriage is not the only historical one, I'll say that the definition was the same back then and people were just "misusing" marriage. That is what marriage is/was for those people in those places and times - you may have disagreed with how they conducted marriage, and have some good arguments for why they should have not done it that way... but that doesn't change the fact that that is, in fact, how marriage was defined there and then.

Otherwise, I'll simply say that not allowing same sex marriage is a misuse of marriage. Wow, it sure was easy to prove that my definition was the correct one!
Well, some would make an argument based on the due process, equal protections and possibly the 10th Amendment. The 10th Amendment can be taken to imply that many things that were acknowledged as rights in English common law can be considered rights of Americans even tho they're not written into the Constitution. I'm thinking that marriage would probably be included.

As for the others, I cannot marry a man, while a woman can. A woman can't marry a woman, while I can. Those are not equal rights.

But even so, I would admit that I'm not sure how strong a Constitutional argument for same sex marriage is.

But in my opinion, the government has to justify not allowing things. Why shouldn't there be same sex marriage? You haven't really given any argument for that.
You totally ignored what I said about intersubjectivity. How can you argue about objectivity vs. subjectivity when you clearly don't know much about it?

The point isn't that I can provide some objective argument for why **** is wrong - the point is if we agree on certain principles, then it follows that **** is wrong. If you do not agree on those principles, then yeah, I probably can't rationally convince you. This is just as true for someone who believes in objective morality, even tho they like to pretend they somehow have a way to resolve this problem. But we tend to label people who don't agree on basic principles of human morality (i.e. other people's suffering matters) as sociopaths. Because really that is pretty much what a sociopath is - they don't understand the difference between a moral rule and a conventional one (they see not punching someone as the same sort of rule as the one that says boys should wear pants not dresses). They're not all stupid either, so it's not because they're too stupid too. This doesn't mean they're all murderers - they do what they want and will break what they see as "conventions" if it will get them what they want. But most of the time what they want will not necessitate murder, so most of them do not murder.

You haven't explained why you disagree with what I've said, you've just tried to say that it doesn't have an objective basis. I don't think yours has an objective basis either. You will have no more success explaining morality to a sociopath and getting him to agree to yours than I would, even if he's quite a logical sociopath. What exactly is your point?

You still haven't articulated any good reason why you disagree other than to say "UR an ATHIESTS you can't have any raitonal basis for your morality therefores I am wright and you are wrong!" You seem to be forgetting that you actually need to give an argument why you're right. Just saying that MY argument is wrong does not entail that yours is correct. One would think someone who's such an "expert" on logic would know that.
Baseless as far as objectively true in the way you're talking about. I guess. But since I don't think what you're discussing is possible, I hardly see that as some horrible flaw of my morality. Yours is the same.
I've seen you assuming that these things require God exist in order to be true. I don't really see how you've proven that in any way.
The problem in your argumentation is that you have given no argument. Even if I were a theist and believed in objective morality, I would still think the same thing about same-sex marriage. I know people who fit this description. You have given no argument that has any relevance to their position. You haven't given any argument against it other than to criticize me for being an atheist. What do you say to the theist who believes in objective morality and disagrees with you? So far - nothing.

Your argument is nothing but a red herring. That's all you've given us.
You simply cannot win this point period. You are under the impression that for me to win this point, I have to prove my morality is objective, when it is in fact you who need to. You don't have objective morality, you merely think you do. You are stuck in bad faith, in an attempt to escape existential angst. But denying your responsibility for your moral choices (claiming that it was decided by someone else) does not mean that you are not responsible. You choose your morality whether you acknowledge it or not.

Ah, that was satisfying. Now I see why you do it. It doesn't get us anywhere, it doesn't prove anything, but it sure feels nice to throw a bunch of jargon at you and tell you "You're wrong, period." Read some Sartre and that paragraph will make more sense to you.

Notice something you did here. Although completely separate from my initial points what you have done is established homosexual unions have not been - ever defined as marriage. Sure it was accepted in some cultures but this brings up he next point - who defines morality? Some people think marriage is a sacred institution and beyond this I'm asking you for a moral argument because the constitution does not allow them same-sex "marriage"

The thing is where you have mentioned misuses of marriage, some still going on today that does not make homosexual "marriage" good, or moral beyond the lacking reason for legal marriage I don't see that you have made your argument. In the same way you can't say how any marriage, gay or otherwise is "right" or "wrong" or how Hitler was "wrong" - not anything. When you state sometimes when "marriage" was misused you are trying to say what? That what I have been stating isn't the historical norm across the board? Remember though, I'm not arguing that society has the right to make up morality, as morality if it is agreed upon even it does not make it logically true.

To further make a point though - why should this be allowed? You don't seem to understand what the implications of changing the definition of marriage are. There are many groups that want "marriage", such as polygamist groups and why shouldn't siblings be able to marry? Where do the marriage benefits stop and what is the number allowed within one marriage? How do you further deny these groups? Do not they then have the "right"? Why does it have to even be between two people? See here we have that marriage is between a two people of the opposite sex. This is the same for everyone. You are saying that the person of a sex does not have the same "right" as the other to marry a person of the opposite sex... does that make any sense? It's the same, sorry.

Then guess what? What about the president! He has a lot of power! Are these "rights"? Are we not equal because we are all presidents? See here I am presenting this in case you were going this direction. Not everyone is in the same position and you are grossly misusing "rights".

About incest being allowed it was until the point of Abraham because the genetic line became weaker at this point. That's the theory anyway because then deformities and such began to happen past this point.

Where morals are simply agreed upon, but subjective and still based on nothing means they are worth nothing as "morality". They still are based on no standard are merely agreements of subjective human minds. See the difference here is that if I have an objective standard, I at least have the potential to rational exactly why things are right and wrong and who we are ultimately accountable too. You can't. Period. That's the difference. So you don't even possibly have a leg to stand on. See here, but you can't really argue anything to a person like the one you mentioned when they get away with it, if they want to. What does it matter? Remember, atheistically you simply die and rot in the ground. So you have yet to show me how this actually could matter as actual morality and if there is to be any standard of ultimate accountability.

Let me present an example. A bird takes a fish from another bird that it is trying to eat. Sure the bird "took" it but surely it did not "steal" it. A lion might kill another animal but it did not "murder" it. What are we supposed to be? Nothing but relatively advanced primates? Why does it matter? Sometimes **** and killing other people might be advantageous to an organism to pass on its genes. What then? See ultimately you cannot answer this, and never will.

Do you get it? I have an objective standard of morality and also stemming from this accountability. It may be wrong, but if objective morals exist then God exists, period for they cannot be based on anything else. You tell me what else they could be based on. Human minds? How does that point to why these are "moral truths" especially when they are contradictory. The physical world? Absolutely not. So go ahead and tell me.

I know I'm repeating myself but maybe it will become more obvious to you - you have no objective standard and have no chance of having one. You can't point back to anything and therefore have no stand in discussion pertaining to such things, and you never will. When you say things about being a theist and having an objective standard then thinking whatever you want in regards to morality it strongly hints at the fact that you do not understand my argumentation, so maybe this repetition isn't in vain. You see, when you have an objective standard to rationally point back to for morality you can say things like "God commanded this" and "what is right goes along with God's nature, for instance telling the truth is right because God is truth, lying contradicts truth and is wrong because it contradicts God's very nature as truth" and that is just a simple example for you.

So therefore, since Yahweh is the only God consistent with rationalizing this morality, then if something is morally stated as wrong I can say - hey look, this is against what God has established whereas you will say "this is what we agreed upon... based on absolutely nothing? It sounded good!" - see the difference? So therefore if someone is to go **** someone and murder them, I will say that it is morally wrong, and why.

Maybe it makes sense now? I want anyone to read this, especially the gay people on here. I never said whether or not I was gay - it has nothing to do with it. I don't hate gay people and I don't think I did anything better to get God's grace because none of us deserve it. I merely can point back to why things are right and wrong, therefore it is based on something and has the possibility of being right whereas when it is based on nothing then how do you suspect it would ever be right? Make no mistake, just because it sounds good does not mean you can rationalize why.

just because they were born liking guys.:

I'm sorry, but that's not true. Maybe strongly psychologically ingrained, perhaps genetically effected, but that statement is crap. Do I need to pull up some studies, and similarly would you like to?

Why do people assume this? Where does it get them?

Also my Mario wants to fight your Falco!

 

[.:~*Momo*~:.]

Oh boy. -_-;;;

S-so anyway welcome to the thread kenhead. ^^ Ummm... I'd like to say "I hope you have a nice time posting here." but I can already see where that went. ^^; So yeah... basically just try not to get TOO mad at people it's understandable that you would but... I mean I don't give a crap if these perfect strangers don't like me for who I am... I probably won't even see any of these people outside of this topic or board anyway. ^^;

 

[kenhead]

Falco vs. Mario It's on

I'm sorry, but that's not true. Maybe strongly psychologically ingrained, perhaps genetically effected, but that statement is crap. Do I need to pull up some studies, and similarly would you like to?

Why do people assume this? Where does it get them?

Also my Mario wants to fight your Falco![/QUOTE]

My falco will kick your mario's a*s
We'll see when brawl comes out, But there is already a 99.95% chance I'll beat you, Since I'm better than everyone else who's ever challenged the great kenhead.

 

[Kix]

I

My falco will kick your mario's a*s
We'll see when brawl comes out, But there is already a 99.95% chance I'll beat you, Since I'm better than everyone else who's ever challenged the great kenhead.

I bet it will actually. I'm bad at like every game I play.

 

[Circus]

lol this is hilarious. 57 page thread on gay folks and their lives. Don't worry I won't start any trouble so I'll leave this thread for good before I hurt someone's feelings.

Just to let everyone know before hand, if you're gay don't let me know in your posts around forums because I will try to hurt your feelings. I'm against gays AND lesbians. It may sound a bit harsh but that's about the only way I can show my hatred towards this, and this is pretty much the only way you can get on my bad side

It's your prerogative to hate whoever you want. But please, don't let yourself be deluded enough to think that anyone cares about being on your bad side.

If someone tells you they're gay, and you respond negatively to them, I can assure you their response won't be "Oh, sorry, I'll stop." So don't even bother. Live and let live.

 

[Kix]

Just to let everyone know before hand, if you're gay don't let me know in your posts around forums because I will try to hurt your feelings. I'm against gays AND lesbians. It may sound a bit harsh but that's about the only way I can show my hatred towards this, and this is pretty much the only way you can get on my bad side

First of all, Why?

 

[Jellybelly]

Gay marriage is just another excuse for gay men to buy flowers

Marriage is religous thing so shouldn't be between two men or women. HOWEVER, gay couples who are in serious relationships should be able to have a civil partnership because if one of them were to die then there livelyhood doesn't pass to the other in the relationship legally.

In the UK we have civil partnerships for this exact reason.

Stuff like anti-gay christians really annoy me, because the bible says it's wrong, yet people are born like it everyday. I mean if god created man then god created gay man surely? Of course I've never read the bible so someone can come and correct me if they like.

We live in enlightened and free times, people say "There are alot more gay people around these day." Thats obviously because it was hidden or repressed, Gay men and women have always been around.

Anyways, The good thing about the internet is total anonimity, so people can say what they like without fear of a backlash.

Peace out.

 

[Kix]

yet people are born like it everyday. I mean if god created man then god created gay man surely? Of course I've never read the bible so someone can come and correct me if they like.

Peace out.

First of all, I'd like you to prove this. Second, isn't everyone born into sin? Are not all men sinful? It doesn't make it a good thing.

Just because you are born with sinful tendency and you will choose to sin does not mean that it is justified and okay.

 

[kenhead]

Originally posted by Kix
I bet it will actually. I'm bad at like every game I play.

then I will not play you. I get tired of winning so much. Sometimes I just wish I would lose once in a while.

Originally posted by Momo
Oh boy. -_-;;;

S-so anyway welcome to the thread kenhead. ^^ Ummm... I'd like to say "I hope you have a nice time posting here." but I can already see where that went. ^^; So yeah... basically just try not to get TOO mad at people it's understandable that you would but... I mean I don't give a crap if these perfect strangers don't like me for who I am... I probably won't even see any of these people outside of this topic or board anyway. ^^;

If you got to know me (which you probably won't cause were complete strangers) you'll realize you can't usually take anything I say seriously. I speak then talk. I just sounded mean to Best101 cause I don't want this thread getting filled with crap anti-gay comments. I really don't care what he thinks either. I just felt like getting him scared of getting the shiz beat out him by a gay guy. See how I just felt like saying that for fun.

 

[Jellybelly]

First of all, I'd like you to prove this. Second, isn't everyone born into sin? Are not all men sinful? It doesn't make it a good thing.

Just because you are born with sinful tendency and you will choose to sin does not mean that it is justified and okay.

So instead people must live either as some a-sexual hermit or lead there whole lives as a lie?

I can't prove that people are born gay, but what i can say is that no-one gives a coin to the kid and says "flip it, heads your straight, tails your gay"

My friends mum is a lesbian, and she lives with her girlfriend, they raised my friend and she isn't a lesbian, so that to me throws out the "nurture" argument.

And surely "sinful tendency" and "choosing to sin" are quite extreme opinions.

 

[Kix]

Originally posted by Kix
I bet it will actually. I'm bad at like every game I play.

then I will not play you. I get tired of winning so much. Sometimes I just wish I would lose once in a while.
.

Hey, I try!

So instead people must live either as some a-sexual hermit or lead there whole lives as a lie?

I can't prove that people are born gay, but what i can say is that no-one gives a coin to the kid and says "flip it, heads your straight, tails your gay"

My friends mum is a lesbian, and she lives with her girlfriend, they raised my friend and she isn't a lesbian, so that to me throws out the "nurture" argument.

And surely "sinful tendency" and "choosing to sin" are quite extreme opinions.

Not exactly. A lot of people can't have sex that want to and it doesn't make it right. I didn't say you won't sin but I'm not looking forward to saying "GO AHEAD, IT FEELS GOOD!!" I don't understand what you mean when you say "live their whole lives as a lie".

Well yeah, but I didn't say that gay often want to be gay, that's why I think it most likely has to do with really strong psychological effects through the developing years of a childs life. I'm less inclined to think that this will work in anyway akin to an excuse for lesbians, however. I think that this has a lot more to do with experimentation often from what I've seen.

I guess you could say that but people still make choices.

 

[Jellybelly]

Not exactly. A lot of people can't have sex that want to and it doesn't make it right. I didn't say you won't sin but I'm not looking forward to saying "GO AHEAD, IT FEELS GOOD!!" I don't understand what you mean when you say "live their whole lives as a lie".

Well yeah, but I didn't say that gay often want to be gay, that's why I think it most likely has to do with really strong psychological effects through the developing years of a childs life. I'm less inclined to think that this will work in anyway akin to an excuse for lesbians, however. I think that this has a lot more to do with experimentation often from what I've seen.

I guess you could say that but people still make choices.

I'm finding it hard to find sense in your post (Not intended to antagonise you, but thats what I think)

I mean by living a lie that gay men and lesbians would get married to straight people, have kids and essentially be leading a life that they may not want.

I just think sexuality is innate, simple as that. I doubt you could turn a straight person gay even with psycology.

 

[Darkfur]

First of all, I'd like you to prove this. Second, isn't everyone born into sin? Are not all men sinful? It doesn't make it a good thing.

Just because you are born with sinful tendency and you will choose to sin does not mean that it is justified and okay.

I would like to ask nicely that all of this stop. Do not bring your bigoted religious beliefs into this thread as, believe it or not, not everyone in the world is Christian. And I can attest from my personal life experience that I was born this way as well. Just because you feel that somehow you have the ability to understand how other people are better than themselves, gives you no right to. And also the belief that you can do that simply makes you look arrogant.

As a Christian myself, this extremely annoys me when people do this. And before you ask how this is possible, read this, which is written by a Christian minister. It's called "A letter to Louise" If you have not read it all, do not even bother contacting me via PM. I still request that this be kept out of this thread.

And, for the record, Marriage isn't only religious. Several cultures around the world marry, and not always for religious reasons. Heck, people in the United States marry simply for benefits, and still others from the US marry people in Canada to take advantage of Health insurance. Not to mention people marrying in the united states just to get citizenship. Marriage shouldn't be denied to two people who legitimately love each other whilst allowed for people who don't and are just doing it to cheat systems.

Now please. This thread is meant to be a haven for people who need people to talk to about there sexuality. It is very difficult becasue of the way society treats us.

I beg you to leave it in peace. Please. Just have a heart. Kindness and love is a key tenant of Christianity, so if you are really a Christian, please show some here and stop causing trouble. Please. I really can't ask more sincerely than this.


---


Now, to kenhead. Welcome to the thread. ^_^ I'm sorry this is happening during your first time here, but please don't let it bother you. We are all here for you. Some of us have AIM and stuff too if you would like to talk further and such, and I am sure many of us wouldn't mind a surprise PM. I know I wouldn't. If you would like to speak on AIM sometime or just have a question you'd like asked that you feel would not be appropriate for the thread, just send me a PM here at Smashboards. ^_^

 

[Kix]

I'm finding it hard to find sense in your post (Not intended to antagonise you, but thats what I think)

I mean by living a lie that gay men and lesbians would get married to straight people, have kids and essentially be leading a life that they may not want.

I just think sexuality is innate, simple as that. I doubt you could turn a straight person gay even with psycology.

I'm not saying that they need to get married. I'm just saying that living the way you want to is not always right. The mind is a strong thing. The way it develops in the early years I think has a lot to do with how a person will respond to sexual things.

1) I would like to ask nicely that all of this stop. Do not bring your bigoted religious beliefs into this thread as, believe it or not, not everyone in the world is Christian. And I can attest from my personal life experience that I was born this way as well.

2) Just because you feel that somehow you have the ability to understand how other people are better than themselves, gives you no right to. And also the belief that you can do that simply makes you look arrogant.

3) As a Christian myself, this extremely annoys me when people do this. And before you ask how this is possible, read this, which is written by a Christian minister. It's called "A letter to Louise" If you have not read it all, do not even bother contacting me via PM. I still request that this be kept out of this thread.

4) And, for the record, Marriage isn't only religious. Several cultures around the world marry, and not always for religious reasons. Heck, people in the United States marry simply for benefits, and still others from the US marry people in Canada to take advantage of Health insurance. Not to mention people marrying in the united states just to get citizenship. Marriage shouldn't be denied to two people who legitimately love each other whilst allowed for people who don't and are just doing it to cheat systems.

Now please. This thread is meant to be a haven for people who need people to talk to about there sexuality. It is very difficult becasue of the way society treats us.

5) I beg you to leave it in peace. Please. Just have a heart. Kindness and love is a key tenant of Christianity, so if you are really a Christian, please show some here and stop causing trouble. Please. I really can't ask more sincerely than this.

1) I'm sorry but I'm going to need to you to actually prove that in some way. Because you have been gay since you can remember does not mean that unchangeably from the day you were born you were gay. There are relatively few studies but for those that exist show that a large portion of the people that are gay that have identical twins are not always gay and the study is already suspect by the way it gets its participants and similar living conditions of the siblings.

2) I'm sorry, the belief that you can do what?

3) I'm sorry, did I say that gay people could not be Christian? I think you may be assuming something I never stated. I specifically remember stating that we are all sinful. Just because you are gay or maybe have participated in gay sex does not make you any less saved or ****ed than any other person on the planet.

This discussion will be kept in this thread because I care about gay people and I don't want them to ignore God's sacrifice for them because they hear that homosexual sex is sin and that homosexual "marriage" is wrong.

When you object to what I said it gives me a bad impression regarding the sinful state of man.

4) Marriage was put in place by God between a man and a woman. Sex outside of marriage is sin, and if marriage is between a man and a woman, disregarding the moral law which is still upheld in the New Testament for the moment, then what argument is there that homosexual sex is not sin? I'm not talking about those who get married and or just cheat the system. I didn't say they were good. I didn't say all marriages between a man and a woman are good, in fact many of them are not good. When God is not at the core of the relationship then it is not good.

Back to homosexual "marriages" why is that justified here? If Jesus said it was between one man and a woman then would you believe him? Otherwise, what do you argue against polygamists, what if they love each other? What about siblings and family members getting married? That's something separate but please think about it.

5) I hope I cleared some things up for you. I don't do this in a spirit of hate rather I want gay people to understand why people do this. Sure some people do it for the wrong reasons or for themselves but I'm not talking about them. Do you realize how convenient it is to say that this is good? How many people are married here even? See what I mean? When is it justified?

6) Now on to the letter. First of all I think I've read this more then once. I never said "go change" I said "do what's right" just because you are straight does not mean that the sex you get into is good and wholesome, or some marriage relationship s good. If it is severely grounded into the homosexual's mind from early ages then the change here would naturally be absurdly hard anyway. Then factor into the teenage years and the actual amount of years they have been lusting after the same sex and even worse have actual sexual relationships with the same sex. Of course it's going to be nigh impossible to change this, but I'm not asking you to.

What this person misunderstands is that God makes man but man has a sinful nature. Man most often chooses to sin and isn't interested in what is right because it is inconvenient to his nature. So some people are extremely violent and other things but it does not make them good. When this person says "the gay has purposes" they are absolutely correct, but falling into sin from it is not what God wants. This is common sense.

I am having trouble taking this seriously. I do not liken it to alcoholism - the change is much deeper and earlier. If your focus is God and what he has done for you then you will not focus on the self. The Bible says that man's heart is desperately wicked.

Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

So how then can man's desires - especially when in contradiction to what is said in scripture be right?

"Four. Several passages in the Bible speak of same-gender sex. In every instance, the Bible is talking about heterosexuals who, filled with lust, have become sex perverts. The Bible says nothing about innate homosexuality as we know it today or about people who are homosexuals."

This assumes that we are talking about two entirely different kinds of human beings here. Furthermore what the heck? Straight people that have had gay sex? This person is just making that up. Regardless in the theocracy of the Jews God was very serious about keeping their line pure. Unlike today where the moral laws are still in place, there were also civil laws for he theocracy and also priestly laws, or "cleanliness" laws that were kept in place to keep them until the messiah, or Jesus was born as the final sacrifice for man's sin through faith.

In the civil laws had a heavy punishment

Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

This is moral command given to Moses in the Torah that is still part of the upheld laws. Even if this can be explained away there is still the problem of sex outside of marriage. Since when does the Bible say that sex outside of marriage is okay? What does "love" justify? For some reason this article says that it is not part of the moral code but it actually is, much like the whole chapter.

Basically to clear things up all man is ****ed because of the sinful choices they make. God incarnated as a man, Jesus to die for the sins of man, and when you accept him through faith this is what makes you Christian. When you believe the gospel message and that faith you are saved.

Remember that you do not define right and wrong by what you want to think. When you do outside of Scriptural justification then it is actually based on nothing. So basically you might see now that I hadn't had such an evil intent as you may have thought, but furthermore you should have already known that if you are Christian because you would have understood the sinful state of man. If man wasn't in this state there would be no point in a savior. All humans need a savior equally and his perfect sacrifice of himself is adequate for all sin.

 

[Pikmin And Yoshi]

IM not gay but i am Bi. I havent told anyone i know yet.

 

[Darkfur]

Obvioulsly, Kix. You are doing this because you are stubborn and no other reason. I asked not to bring it up in the topic, and to PM me. But you couldn't even manage that. *shakes head*

I asked you to please leave this topic in peace. And if you had any shred of goodness in you whatsoever you would understand that what we have to go through is hard, and we are trying to have some fellowship of our own here. You must recognize that, no matter how much you talk about God, not everyone believes in God. And just because you say God defines marriage one way, that means nothing in the world as a whole because marriage isn't something that only Christians do. Other cultures marry too. That is a fact, so using anything having to do with Christianity in a marriage debate is pointless. Not everyone is Christian.

Now please. I'm asking you once more. Leave this topic in peace.

 

[Kix]

Darkfur, my post was specifically to you since you told me that you are a Christian. I told you I am interested in the salvation of people regardless if they are gay.

Not everything is about this, I just want people to understand where these people are coming from. To be honest I don't quite understand why this is such a problem. I know a lot might not agree but I'm trying to not only make the point within Christianity but that if you don't have an objective standard for morality then it is baseless. This should mean something when they read something and get really mad. People should just think about this.

You did nothing wrong to me so I don't see any reason to dislike you or anyone on here for that matter as a person. People seem to be assuming my intent is hostile. They are assuming wrong.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Notice something you did here. Although completely separate from my initial points what you have done is established homosexual unions have not been - ever defined as marriage. Sure it was accepted in some cultures but this brings up he next point - who defines morality? Some people think marriage is a sacred institution and beyond this I'm asking you for a moral argument because the constitution does not allow them same-sex "marriage"

The thing is where you have mentioned misuses of marriage, some still going on today that does not make homosexual "marriage" good, or moral beyond the lacking reason for legal marriage I don't see that you have made your argument. In the same way you can't say how any marriage, gay or otherwise is "right" or "wrong" or how Hitler was "wrong" - not anything. When you state sometimes when "marriage" was misused you are trying to say what? That what I have been stating isn't the historical norm across the board? Remember though, I'm not arguing that society has the right to make up morality, as morality if it is agreed upon even it does not make it logically true.

To further make a point though - why should this be allowed? You don't seem to understand what the implications of changing the definition of marriage are. There are many groups that want "marriage", such as polygamist groups and why shouldn't siblings be able to marry? Where do the marriage benefits stop and what is the number allowed within one marriage? How do you further deny these groups? Do not they then have the "right"? Why does it have to even be between two people? See here we have that marriage is between a two people of the opposite sex. This is the same for everyone. You are saying that the person of a sex does not have the same "right" as the other to marry a person of the opposite sex... does that make any sense? It's the same, sorry.

Then guess what? What about the president! He has a lot of power! Are these "rights"? Are we not equal because we are all presidents? See here I am presenting this in case you were going this direction. Not everyone is in the same position and you are grossly misusing "rights".

About incest being allowed it was until the point of Abraham because the genetic line became weaker at this point. That's the theory anyway because then deformities and such began to happen past this point.

Where morals are simply agreed upon, but subjective and still based on nothing means they are worth nothing as "morality". They still are based on no standard are merely agreements of subjective human minds. See the difference here is that if I have an objective standard, I at least have the potential to rational exactly why things are right and wrong and who we are ultimately accountable too. You can't. Period. That's the difference. So you don't even possibly have a leg to stand on. See here, but you can't really argue anything to a person like the one you mentioned when they get away with it, if they want to. What does it matter? Remember, atheistically you simply die and rot in the ground. So you have yet to show me how this actually could matter as actual morality and if there is to be any standard of ultimate accountability.

Let me present an example. A bird takes a fish from another bird that it is trying to eat. Sure the bird "took" it but surely it did not "steal" it. A lion might kill another animal but it did not "murder" it. What are we supposed to be? Nothing but relatively advanced primates? Why does it matter? Sometimes **** and killing other people might be advantageous to an organism to pass on its genes. What then? See ultimately you cannot answer this, and never will.

Do you get it? I have an objective standard of morality and also stemming from this accountability. It may be wrong, but if objective morals exist then God exists, period for they cannot be based on anything else. You tell me what else they could be based on. Human minds? How does that point to why these are "moral truths" especially when they are contradictory. The physical world? Absolutely not. So go ahead and tell me.

I know I'm repeating myself but maybe it will become more obvious to you - you have no objective standard and have no chance of having one. You can't point back to anything and therefore have no stand in discussion pertaining to such things, and you never will. When you say things about being a theist and having an objective standard then thinking whatever you want in regards to morality it strongly hints at the fact that you do not understand my argumentation, so maybe this repetition isn't in vain. You see, when you have an objective standard to rationally point back to for morality you can say things like "God commanded this" and "what is right goes along with God's nature, for instance telling the truth is right because God is truth, lying contradicts truth and is wrong because it contradicts God's very nature as truth" and that is just a simple example for you.

So therefore, since Yahweh is the only God consistent with rationalizing this morality, then if something is morally stated as wrong I can say - hey look, this is against what God has established whereas you will say "this is what we agreed upon... based on absolutely nothing? It sounded good!" - see the difference? So therefore if someone is to go **** someone and murder them, I will say that it is morally wrong, and why.

Maybe it makes sense now? I want anyone to read this, especially the gay people on here. I never said whether or not I was gay - it has nothing to do with it. I don't hate gay people and I don't think I did anything better to get God's grace because none of us deserve it. I merely can point back to why things are right and wrong, therefore it is based on something and has the possibility of being right whereas when it is based on nothing then how do you suspect it would ever be right? Make no mistake, just because it sounds good does not mean you can rationalize why.

Respond to my points, I think it's obvious that you're avoiding my points, even while subtly referencing to their implications.

If your unwilling to respond to my points, that illustrates the weakness to your argument.

I pointed out a completely non-religious standard by which ethics and social mores could be established and derived from, one perfectly valid for use, but you never bother to debate that assertion instead blanketedly stating that "morality achieved through agreement isn't objective", while in fact my point was that it was NEITHER morality NOR achieved by agreement, merely it's PROTECTION.

So, unless you can respond to my posts, well you just continue to illustrate that you are unable to defeat reletivism.

I'm sorry, but that's not true. Maybe strongly psychologically ingrained, perhaps genetically effected, but that statement is crap. Do I need to pull up some studies, and similarly would you like to?

Why do people assume this? Where does it get them?

Ok, pull some studies, from ubaised sources of course, because you have the burden of proof.

You see, if you had left it at "there's no proof to this" then you had a retively easy argument, but you made an assertion, "people aren't born gay", which is signifigantly more difficult to defend, because you need to prove such a thing, whereas saying that there is no proof that people are born gay only requires attacking other's points.

The burden of proof is on you, so please, produce it.

 

[Jellybelly]

I really wish I could take the christian/Religous element out of homosexuality for 24 hours.

If we stop mentioning the word god, sin and hell we'll get this...

Most people are straight but some people are gay

Whether innate or aquired they have sexual feelings towards members of the same sex.

Gay people have sex with consenting adults just as two straight individuals would

Gay people show now differences to straight people other than there sexual preference.

END

If we were to add religion to it, then homosexuality is deemed a sin by the bible, it's not neccesarily a sin to be a homosexual, but to act upon these feelings by engaging in gay sex (correct me please if i'm wrong)


Just think about it . People ****, murder, molest and commit terrible atrocities to each other every day, is homosexuality really a sin compared to all this? Do practising homosexuals deserve to be tarred with the same brush as these people?

People are not all the same, some people are white, some people are black. Some people are gay, some people are straight, some people are christian, some people are muslim.

Anywayz I've kinda lost where i was going with this, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[arrowhead]

to kix: just so you know, your argument about "how do you define morality" doesn't support your argument in any way. anyone can just as easily say back to you "how do you know it's moral to keep gay people from a happy marriage?"

and not everyone wants to be "saved". not by you, not by anyone. not everyone here is religious or even christian, so supporting the limiting of rights because of your religion is just being selfish.

and it doesn't matter if people are born gay or not. what matters is that it's not a choice, so discrimination against them is just as bad as racism

 

[Kix]

to kix: just so you know, your argument about "how do you define morality" doesn't support your argument in any way. anyone can just as easily say back to you "how do you know it's moral to keep gay people from a happy marriage?"

and not everyone wants to be "saved". not by you, not by anyone. not everyone here is religious or even christian, so supporting the limiting of rights because of your religion is just being selfish.

and it doesn't matter if people are born gay or not. what matters is that it's not a choice, so discrimination against them is just as bad as racism

My argument is as of right now what I stated - I have the possibility of rationalizing my morality whereas he does not. I could say something based on the objective standard, but again my point is to point out that he doesn't have one therefore he and people that believe as he does cannot rationally tell me why, in any circumstance. They don't have an objective standard that might possibly be wrong, they have nothing but agreements and relativistic views that are actually based on nothing.

I don't save anyone, what are you talking about? Also for the fiftieth time I am saying that there is no reason to allow it. The moral argument cannot be made from his side, or your side and I don't see a good legal one either.

Okay, but how is racism wrong again? I might be able to say how, but what about you? Also, what about discrimination against behavior?

1) Respond to my points, I think it's obvious that you're avoiding my points, even while subtly referencing to their implications.

If your unwilling to respond to my points, that illustrates the weakness to your argument.

2) I pointed out a completely non-religious standard by which ethics and social mores could be established and derived from, one perfectly valid for use, but you never bother to debate that assertion instead blanketedly stating that "morality achieved through agreement isn't objective", while in fact my point was that it was NEITHER morality NOR achieved by agreement, merely it's PROTECTION.

So, unless you can respond to my posts, well you just continue to illustrate that you are unable to defeat reletivism.






3) Ok, pull some studies, from ubaised sources of course, because you have the burden of proof.

You see, if you had left it at "there's no proof to this" then you had a retively easy argument, but you made an assertion, "people aren't born gay", which is signifigantly more difficult to defend, because you need to prove such a thing, whereas saying that there is no proof that people are born gay only requires attacking other's points.

The burden of proof is on you, so please, produce it.

1) Was I ever discussing anything with you?

2) Oh, Relativism? Can you edit in what you are talking about so I can further comment?

3) The study used to be located here: http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/twins.html

but is no longer right now so I have to find it. In fact it was the results with bias in the other direction - opposite of mine but it still made these points none the less which was strange to say the least.

I made a positive assertion, just like he did and a lot of people in this thread. I'm going to point them out for you: Hey guys, you made a positive assertion, back it up! In fact if people start bringing up studies for me it will most likely be easier to make my point.

Now back to me I am going to edit this post when I find the studies and in fact the position of much of the psychology community and why it was forced to be changed. Also stuff about genetics and behavior and sexuality.

 

[kenhead]

Kix please stop posting these long posts that I will never read through thanks to my short attention span and they never seem to make a point. Nobody wants to hear your complaining about god said this and that and that your not born gay because yada yada yada. Just leave because you should have seen by all the posts people have sent you that we don't want you here period. They're starting to change the subject and i liked the subject we were on before you came here. please leave peacefully like a good Christian would.

 

[-Hoggle-]

Sorry wrong thread

 

[MASAHIROx]

thank you kenhead.

lets talk about something fun or interesting.

not this argumentative BS.

i work at starbucks and this one gay guy comes in every day. i swear hes the happiest person i know.

 

[Kix]

Kix please stop posting these long posts that I will never read through thanks to my short attention span and they never seem to make a point. Nobody wants to hear your complaining about god said this and that and that your not born gay because yada yada yada. Just leave because you should have seen by all the posts people have sent you that we don't want you here period. They're starting to change the subject and i liked the subject we were on before you came here. please leave peacefully like a good Christian would.

Leave like a good Christian?

I'm not trying to be rude or start anything but does this kind of discussion hurt your feelings?

 

[.:~*Momo*~:.]

Yeah fun and interesting please! D=

@ MASAHIROx... how is he happy? =P

 

[Darkfur]

thank you kenhead.

lets talk about something fun or interesting.

not this argumentative BS.

i work at starbucks and this one gay guy comes in every day. i swear hes the happiest person i know.

Starbucks is pretty great. :D I don't see why anyone, gay(homosexual) or not wouldn't be gay(happy) in starbucks. =p Well, unless it's an airport starbucks. Ouch on prices there.

My boyfriend and I are actually about to leave to go to starbucks in a few minutes. I'm going to get myself a one of the chocolate cream based fraps with a pump of Raspberry syrup. Yum.

 

[Rampage]

I have no idea how you one can be gay...do you like...just want guys or...? lol Does not compute.

 

[Darkfur]

I have no idea how you one can be gay...do you like...just want guys or...? lol Does not compute.

It's just the way we are born. Even though bigots usually argue otherwise. When you think about liking the same gender in that way, it doesn't appeal to you at all. Well for us that is how it is when we think about liking the opposite gender in that way.

Basically, we are sexually attracted to and fall in love with members of the same sex. It's just who we are. Look at it this way. =p More girls for you to have a shot at woo-ing thanks to less competition.

 

[SU_Remo]

I have no idea how you one can be gay...do you like...just want guys or...? lol Does not compute.

Just like Darkfur said, it's not very complicated. We are guys who are attracted to guys (or girls/girls, of course) just as you are attracted to women. No biggie, right?

 

[MASAHIROx]

@ MOMO : He's just always smiling and he's pretty cool. (even when we mess up his order by accident >_<) He can actually carry a conversation unlike half of our customers.

he has some really cool stories too. it sounds like he lives a full happy life.

Starbucks is fun because we do get some really interesting people that come through here. They get some crazy drinks too. my personal favorite is a triple, venti, breve,4 pump white mocha, cinnamon dulce white mocha with toffee nut sprinkles on top...LOL



@ Kix : I'm pretty sure you didn't hurt his feelings. your posts are just...boring. no offense but take it to pm's or something.

 

[Kyari]

actually, i wouldn't say every gay person is born that way, but that many people are born with perhaps a genetic predisposition to having gay desires? or perhaps everyone is born with a predisposition to it, depending on how they grow up and how their life experiences shape the deep intricate areas of the mind. i say this as a gay person because i used to identify as straight, but now identify as bi, but only for what sexually attracts me, emotionally i actually feel like i have shifted from wanting one thing to wanting another; but i don't really have time to talk about it right now and i probably won't unless people care enough to hear it. i will say though that very core important things about me such as my level of empathy, understanding, and kindness have all dramatically improved over the time frame through which that shift occured. *whistles and walks away*

 

[Andydark]

I personally go with the theory that everyone is a little bi, honestly I think if I got drunk my best friend and I would end up connecting on a deep deep level.

In other news, I'm somewhat of a ****. The guy I was interested in and I were hanging out and such. We lied down together, and...stuff happened. Mostly my doing, but yeah.

The guy who he was going to go on a date with visited the following day and he vowed he wouldn't do anything with him, not for me, but for the sake of being you know...not whorish.

Stuff happened then, too.

And now he feels terrible.

My life is like a bad soap opera.

 

[MetaKnight'sSword]

wow i was gone for quite a bit...but apparently i just saw some haters in this thread.....XP

 

[Crimson King]

From here on out, I want everyone here to report any gay bashing from here on out. It's considered flaming and was the second post of this topic. Kix is being pretty respectful, but Rampage and the other guy I warned were not.