Levelling Up Shulk's Arts - Custom Moveset Discussion 3.0

[Berserker.]

Mighty Air Slash isn't that good. So I think we have the perfect right/responsibility almost to ignore it.

I don't think it was a good idea to snub the custom instantly. It could work as a niche/counterpick option at the very least for floaty characters or for stages like Halberd.

 

[Goesasu]

I don't think it was a good idea to snub the custom instantly. It could work as a niche/counterpick option at the very least for floaty characters or for stages like Halberd.

MAS aint bad but default and AAS in particular are better in almost every situation.
I have fallen in love with AAS i could write a book about it, it cover so much flaws on shulks aggro and defensive gameplay. Paired with Dspeed im an aggro monster and paired with Dshield im a lot heavier than DDD and can come back to stage easier.

 

[Masonomace]

MAS aint bad but default and AAS in particular are better in almost every situation.
I have fallen in love with AAS i could write a book about it, it cover so much flaws on shulks aggro and defensive gameplay. Paired with Dspeed im an aggro monster and paired with Dshield im a lot heavier than DDD and can come back to stage easier.

I can't lie, DShield + AAS + DV makes my life so much easier. Shield Art getting camped easily by projectiles is not fun, but with AAS & DV, I don't feel as stressed. Plus, walking + shielding projectiles + rolling once to close the gap is pretty fantastic if I'm being patient because it's 20 seconds of "yes I love this Art so much".

2222 oddly is becoming my favorite set.

EDIT: I'd like to add your NNID & play you sometime if that's cool. I want to play other Decisive Art enthusiasts .

 

[Scieric]

Nobody likes MAS. It sucks. No need to debate it. We all agree.

 

[Berserker.]

Nobody likes MAS. It sucks. No need to debate it. We all agree.

Please do not make posts like this when it comes to contributing to the discussion.

Thanks.

 

[erico9001]

Uh. I think we made a LOT of mistakes with the presets

Like you know, ignoring back slash leap and mighty air slash

Yeah, there's nothing that can be done right now about that, but at least it can be changed in the future. However, there have not been enough responses regarding changing the sets yet. At this rate, nothing will be changed . Here's the summary (from page 2) of what I discussed extensively on the bottom of page 1.

3213 seems more like an optional set than preferential, as its niche over the critical 3113 set is highly situational. It could simply swap places with 2123, which is currently an optional set, that seems more likely to be used in a tournament anyways. Or, perhaps 2122, 2322, or 1133 could take its place. Also open to suggestions.

Something else I did not bring up, is perhaps 1133 should replace 1213 in optional sets? Or any other set?

I need thoughts/opinions.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm sure this gonna be another edition for possible custom changes, so I guess I shouldn't have worried

 

[Sha-Shulk]

I'm sure this gonna be another edition for possible custom changes, so I guess I shouldn't have worried

I like 2113 and 2313

sorry, but I just can't use AAS right now.

I'd try it in a 2222 custom, but I can't get the AAS drift thing (whatever it's called) to work. I end up just whiffing and then getting SMASHed.

MAS aint bad but default and AAS in particular are better in almost every situation.
I have fallen in love with AAS i could write a book about it, it cover so much flaws on shulks aggro and defensive gameplay. Paired with Dspeed im an aggro monster and paired with Dshield im a lot heavier than DDD and can come back to stage easier.

Does AAS have "more hitbox" than regular AS?

or does it just drift forward...

 

[Masonomace]

Does AAS have "more hitbox" than regular AS? or does it just drift forward...

The 1st hit of AS & the 1st hit of AAS have the same hitbox range, just different knockback angles, & the 2nd hit of AAS has more hitbox range for sure.

but I can't get the AAS drift thing (whatever it's called) to work. I end up just whiffing and then getting SMASHed.

By the drift thing, do you mean going for the 1st hit & whiff but then hold away?

 

[Sha-Shulk]

The 1st hit of AS & the 1st hit of AAS have the same hitbox range, just different knockback angles, & the 2nd hit of AAS has more hitbox range for sure.

By the drift thing, do you mean going for the 1st hit & whiff but then hold away?

I mean using the 2nd hit to strike my opponent, while my opponent is on the ground. I read somewhere that you can do that... but maybe it's not true?

 

[Berserker.]

@ Sha-Shulk

Do not double post please. Thanks bruh :D

 

[Sha-Shulk]

@ Sha-Shulk

Do not double post please. Thanks bruh :D

What is "double posting"?

 

[Berserker.]

What is "double posting"?

Um. Okay? .-.

What you just did here (in another thread) is double posting:

Double posting is mostly not allowed in threads unless it's for important reasons such as reserving posts (only the opening post owners can do this), important announcements, or important thread bumping.

Next time you double post, you'll be given a verbal warning

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Oh, so just don't post twice in a row?

Ok.

(why didn't the double-post problem occur in the other thread?)

 

[Scieric]

Who knows? Now back on the topic of customs please.

 

[Masonomace]

I mean using the 2nd hit to strike my opponent, while my opponent is on the ground. I read somewhere that you can do that... but maybe it's not true?

Oh all this is, is just delaying the 2nd slash & allowing Shulk to dip a little lower during the wait. If you delay the 2nd slash, Shulk can hit opponents who are standing but it does vary on the character, especially if they were too small to hit in the first place.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Oh all this is, is just delaying the 2nd slash & allowing Shulk to dip a little lower during the wait. If you delay the 2nd slash, Shulk can hit opponents who are standing but it does vary on the character, especially if they were too small to hit in the first place.

Oh, ok.

Thanks!

 

[Scieric]

Can we talk about customs please? Someone please throw a custom out to discuss.

 

[Berserker.]

If you want to discuss a custom then by all means start the discussion with one that you're interested in.

 

[Scieric]

I'm not interested in any one custom. If someone else is, please open a discussion.

 

[Peppa]

I'm fairly certain that's what the entire thread is about, then you'd post a custom you like or dislike and start your discussion why it is good/bad.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm fairly certain that's what the entire thread is about, then you'd post a custom you like or dislike and start your discussion why it is good/bad.

This

There hasn't been any discussion yet, how about I ask you guys on your opinions about what's good/bad about decisive arts. With the metagame shifting towards tech exploiting of MALLC and MADC, frequent art switching along with discovering the several unique and situational ways on how to use Shulk (or re-discover, lolol), decisive arts seems to be quite a contradiction when it comes to this and to even Shulk's "intended design." I mean, it's good because decisive speed and buster are insane but you're missing the ability to switch arts when it's needed. More importantly, you can't even use MALLC or MADC frequently with DArts as your default custom.

I've seen DArts dismissed by many. You guys think it could have some niche use for a certain match up?

 

[Scieric]

DArts's best use is for doubles. It's ability to be used for a stock tank Shulk is unrivaled by the other Arts. Sith the buffed upgrades but the same debuffs, coupled with AAS and DV, you're not going to die for 20 second intervals with only a 5 second cooldown in between. DArts forces your opponent to kill you within a 5 second interval. The only time you won't die in those 5 seconds is if you are at 250% or so, or you get hit by a strong move, qwhich your opponent can cover you from. Also DJump is great for escaping situations, if you really feel it, you can use DSpeed, but it's situational.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

I think DArts is great in singles. I utilize tactics that don't require me to lock into one art. Also, I RARELY (but still do) go into Decisive Smash and Decisive Shield.

(EDIT)

I also agree:

DArts is phenomenal in doubles. The Decisive + Dash is great. Not sure about the AAS, I prefer AS.

(Another EDIT)

What is MADC? I know what MALLC is, but I've never heard of MADC. Is it Monado Art Dash Cancel?

 

[Maple42]

Mr. Maple42

Ms : p

The Doubles DA point is actually very valid; he also has the niche of actually be a decent aggro as well as a stock tank : o
As for Singles, I believe the correct usage of DA is against zoners; Speed and Jump apply great amounts of pressure on the ending lag of chucking projectiles ~
Oh, and @notyourparadigm and I had this theory that in mirror matches, you could use DA to stall out both standard arts and especially Hyper Arts; it seems to be panning out well, with the most successful example so far being stalling out Smash.

 

[Scieric]

Yeah, but once thay are stalled out, you are kind of stuck and the other Shulk can choose the countering Art to the one you are currently stuck in.

 

[Goesasu]

Yeah, but once thay are stalled out, you are kind of stuck and the other Shulk can choose the countering Art to the one you are currently stuck in.

there is no counter to Dspeed.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

there is no counter to Dspeed.

True.

 

[erico9001]

At the start of this, you see @Jerm using AAS, and he falls through the platform really fast. This is a pretty cool tech. On battlefield, you get the damage out right before you start falling fastly. It allows for actual follow-ups from AAS once you reach the ground! That's pretty good. Additionally, this also works on all platforms where AAS misses the second hit, which keeps the move safe, since you reach the ground quickly instead of landing on a platform (where, since they're in the air, they can hit you). This also works while in Monado Jump and/or when delaying the move.

How to do it? All you need to do is hold downwards on the joystick by the time you hit the platform. Give it a try, it's very easy!

Why does it happen? It is because the air slash code (animation and everything) is programmed to cancel whenever it reaches land or a platform. This happens with all air slash customs, both first and second strike. You can observe this by going to town and city with regular air slash, using just the first slash on the tall side platforms, and holding down; Shulk will enter fall animation when he reaches the platform. However, what happens with advancing air slash is, when it is cancelled, the downward velocity that is in the second strike carries through. I'm not sure if this is a 'set/add velocity' code or just the movement of the animation itself, though.

 

[Masonomace]

there is no counter to Dspeed.

I hate to bring the custom Shulk ditto debate in here, but I think DShield could have DSpeed's number to an extent. If DSpeed Shulk tries going for a combo out of a throw such as DThrow > FAir, DShield Shulk can say no to it with an Air Slash move, Vision move, or doublejump airdodge before FAir can connect. It's not just DThrow > FAir either. Basically any of DSpeed Shulk's combos at early to mid percentages against DShield Shulk aren't guaranteed, & that notion must be respected because the hitstun reduction DShield possesses will allow combo breaking. DSpeed Shulk would have to mix it up until later percents DShield Shulk would receive enough hitstun to be combo'd, but DSpeed Shulk can easily mix it up.

Although DSpeed can easily get more hits in, it means little when DSpeed reduces damage output on top of DShield reducing that damage even further.

An Example: DSpeed FTilt deals 0.8x aka –20% damage less, & DShield reduces damage dealt by 0.603x aka –39.7% damage less. So say DSpeed Shulk hits with a pivoted FTilt dealing a fresh 10.92%, but now apply DShield Shulk's damage defense & that fresh pivoted Ftilt only deals 6.58%.

At the start of this, you see @Jerm using AAS, and he falls through the platform really fast. This is a pretty cool tech. On battlefield, you get the damage out right before you start falling fastly. It allows for actual follow-ups from AAS once you reach the ground! That's pretty good. Additionally, this also works on all platforms where AAS misses the second hit, which keeps the move safe, since you reach the ground quickly instead of landing on a platform (where, since they're in the air, they can hit you). This also works while in Monado Jump and/or when delaying the move.

How to do it? All you need to do is hold downwards on the joystick by the time you hit the platform. Give it a try, it's very easy!

Why does it happen? It is because the air slash code (animation and everything) is programmed to cancel whenever it reaches land or a platform. This happens with all air slash customs, both first and second strike. You can observe this by going to town and city with regular air slash, using just the first slash on the tall side platforms, and holding down; Shulk will enter fall animation when he reaches the platform. However, what happens with advancing air slash is, when it is cancelled, the downward velocity that is in the second strike carries through. I'm not sure if this is a 'set/add velocity' code or just the movement of the animation itself, though.

I enjoy this. We can also do this without having to hold the control stick down but it requires the right positioning. For example, on Battlefield, if you first grab the ledge & do a ledge-climb followed by a forward roll, you can input AAS quickly holding up & you'll have the same result. It's not too useful though but I thought I'd mention it since I remember @Plain Yogurt talked about this a couple of times.

A Buster Art + platform-dropping AAS = ultimate safety & dealing ~20%.

 

[Scieric]

Ok. All of this might get me to pick up AAS. It does seem superior. Also, I believe that Jump beat Dspeed in the Arts MU so DJump should do nicely to DSpeed.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

I hate to bring the custom Shulk ditto debate in here, but I think DShield could have DSpeed's number to an extent. If DSpeed Shulk tries going for a combo out of a throw such as DThrow > FAir, DShield Shulk can say no to it with an Air Slash move, Vision move, or doublejump airdodge before FAir can connect. It's not just DThrow > FAir either. Basically any of DSpeed Shulk's combos at early to mid percentages against DShield Shulk aren't guaranteed, & that notion must be respected because the hitstun reduction DShield possesses will allow combo breaking. DSpeed Shulk would have to mix it up until later percents DShield Shulk would receive enough hitstun to be combo'd, but DSpeed Shulk can easily mix it up.

Although DSpeed can easily get more hits in, it means little when DSpeed reduces damage output on top of DShield reducing that damage even further.

An Example: DSpeed FTilt deals 0.8x aka –20% damage less, & DShield reduces damage dealt by 0.603x aka –39.7% damage less. So say DSpeed Shulk hits with a pivoted FTilt dealing a fresh 10.92%, but now apply DShield Shulk's damage defense & that fresh pivoted Ftilt only deals 6.58%.

True about DSpeed and DShield, but I think you're forgetting that DSpeed can just outlast the DShield by sheer.... speed.
Then switch to another art that won't be countered well.

EDIT:
I know you can't switch out of DArts. I mean just switch to DJump or something else (after cooldown), and if the opponent switches to a countering art, then just stall again.
Maybe even consider not switching into an art if you feel that your opponent will counter it. VShulk isn't all that bad.

In short, just work with what you have, but change it when you can.

ANOTHER EDIT:

*If your opponent is in Arts or HArts, then you still have superior game with DSpeed. Maybe HShield or HJump could counter you? But then again, it will only be 6 seconds of total rekt if you get in a tricky situation.... which can be prevented from the use of DSpeed.

If you have DArts, and your opponent doesn't, just stall in the "movement arts" (speed & jump) and wait it out. DArts has faster cooldown, and stronger game than the regular Arts. And Hyper only lasts for 6 seconds.

I think 2*23 is a great custom set.

("*" means any back slash. I don't really prefer any one over the other. Regular has great combo out of bthrow, leap has some pretty nice punishes on aggro players, and charge gives you a pseudo side recovery.)

 

[Scieric]

Yeah, but I want to be able to cancel my Art if someone chooses one that has my number. Not to mention decisive arts is longer, so it might be hard to stall out for that long.

 

[Piford]

If we are talking decisive arts, I think they are terrible. After playing and watching matches where they are used, I think the sacrifice of not being able to change isn't worth the extra boost it gives. If they didn't last nearly as long as they do, it might work, but 20 seconds is too long. A lot of times, you don't want to risk going for an art in fear that it might be terrible in a small amount of time. When you are in an art, it's common that the momentum of the match shifts to where you need a different art, but you can't use it. Unless you want to be in speed the entire match, I don't really see a need to use it. Versatility is what allows Shulk to succeed, but this takes away that.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

If we are talking decisive arts, I think they are terrible. After playing and watching matches where they are used, I think the sacrifice of not being able to change isn't worth the extra boost it gives. If they didn't last nearly as long as they do, it might work, but 20 seconds is too long. A lot of times, you don't want to risk going for an art in fear that it might be terrible in a small amount of time. When you are in an art, it's common that the momentum of the match shifts to where you need a different art, but you can't use it. Unless you want to be in speed the entire match, I don't really see a need to use it. Versatility is what allows Shulk to succeed, but this takes away that.

I just utilize Shulk's tactics in a way that doesn't require me to be "stuck" in an art's tactics.

Also, I can push the momentum to my favor if I have a powerful enough art activated (speed jump buster.... not smash or shield)

 

[erico9001]

I don't think decisive arts are bad. If you're using them right, you usually want those extra seconds of time. Although, I haven't used them much outside of Shulk dittos. Imo, decisive arts beat regular arts in dittos. The extra strength is legitimate. Decisive buster, for instance, seems to trump all of regular Shulk's options. Decisive shield lets you survive to rediculous percents, and is good in the neutral as well. Overall, regular arts Shulk just has a hard time beating them. However, I have not personally taken them to many other MU's, so I'm going to start doing friendlies on Anther's Ladder with them.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

The main thing about Decisive that's throwing me off is that the metagame seems to be advancing towards incorporating MALLC and MADC a lot, and with Decisive it's much harder to do that and often not possible due to not being able to change arts.

 

[Scieric]

I don't like decisive and I don't think I ever will. They last too damn long to not be cancelable. One again, allow me to reference to a post I made earlier.

DArts's best use is for doubles. It's ability to be used for a stock tank Shulk is unrivaled by the other Arts. With the buffed upgrades but the same debuffs, coupled with AAS and DV, you're not going to die for 20 second intervals with only a 5 second cooldown in between. DArts forces your opponent to kill you within a 5 second interval. The only time you won't die in those 5 seconds is if you are at 250% or so, or you get hit by a strong move, qwhich your opponent can cover you from. Also DJump is great for escaping situations, if you really feel it, you can use DSpeed, but it's situational.

Read this. I never say anywhere that I like it in singles. This is because I don't. They suck.

 

[erico9001]

I think they are best when you know the MU, and so you know what art you should be in. Of course, that's a little skewed by how much better the positive attributes are. It won't be exactly the same what are you should use.

So far, I've had success with them on smashladder, btw!

 

[Scieric]

That's nice. I still don't think they're any good.