Levelling Up Shulk's Arts - Custom Moveset Discussion 3.0

[Scieric]

This is quite interesting. But one thing, MAS and the 2 BS customs are best for niche sets. However, I feel that DV is great against zoners and should be in more than one set. 3122 perhaps? It's rather intrusive, what we want for an approach based set like against Mega Man. (One of his hardest matchups)

 

[Berserker.]

My set against custom Villager/s made me realize that power vision isn't great against EVERYTHING

I think I would have done better with dash vision :|

 

[Masonomace]

This is quite interesting. But one thing, MAS and the 2 BS customs are best for niche sets.

Fair enough. I hope that by the next time custom sets get re-listed, all of Shulk's customs will make it in at least one set.

However, I feel that DV is great against zoners and should be in more than one set. 3122 perhaps? It's rather intrusive, what we want for an approach based set like against Mega Man. (One of his hardest matchups)

Most definitely. DV is the way to go against any kind of projectile ranged zoning for several reasons not to mention that DV is truthfully a better counter than Vision in almost every way. If PV wasn't ridiculously silly being in 90% of our sets, DV could potentially be in at least half of our sets. Here's some numbers:

Note: Mario's Jab1 from the center of Omega Gaur Plains in Training Mode vs Vision DV & PV with Vectoring / DI. Mario's being launched to the left blastline:

Vision countering Mario's Jab1 starts KOing Mario at 193% while he's holding for max survival VI / DI
DV countering Mario's Jab1 starts KOing Mario at 184% while he's holding for max survival VI / DI
PV countering Mario's Jab1 starts KOing Mario at 89% while he's holding for max survival VI / DI


However, Dash Vision isn't the greatest for KO'ing strong hits like Ganon's Neutral-B non-reversed (that's what PV is for:)

Vision countering Ganon Punch starts KOing Ganon at 25% while he's holding for max survival VI / DI
DV countering Ganon Punch starts KOing Ganon at 35% while he's holding for maximum survival VI/ DI
PV countering Ganon Punch starts KOing Ganon at 1% while he's holding for max survival VI / DI. . .

I'll say that Ganon holding launches him at a really bad DI angle, so he may have to hold for a better angle, or maybe even if he survives. I doubt it though. Holding is so good that it's needed especially for being hit by PV.
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That aside, DV is definitely my Down-B go-to for Mega Man as well. Lemons man. . .

My set against custom Villager/s made me realize that power vision isn't great against EVERYTHING

I think I would have done better with dash vision :|

DV over PV would have got you saying, "We can definitely do this!"

 

[Scieric]

I went to a tourney 2 days ago. It was a Mega Man player. I didn't want to go Shulk just because of the MU. It didn't occur to me that I could've just used DV and probably have won the set. I went Brawler and Mac. Got 2-0ed.

 

[Masonomace]

I went to a tourney 2 days ago. It was a Mega Man player. I didn't want to go Shulk just because of the MU. It didn't occur to me that I could've just used DV and probably have won the set. I went Brawler and Mac. Got 2-0ed.

I'm not aware of your eggsperience with Brawler or Mac vs Mega Man, but Shulk it up. DV & the Jump / Speed Arts do work not to mention using Buster with a DV counter for just the base damage alone fresh is 11.76%. It's definitely okay to stale DV if you foresee many projectile counter opportunities since DV also hits early before Vision as well.
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So for sets, the 3122 set ya mentioned already happens to be in the OP, & so is the 1122 set. I'm okay with 1122 but I feel BSL or BSC could make a better difference in a MU than regular BS.

I feel 1222 or 1322 would be slightly better than 1122

 

[Scieric]

I'm not aware of your eggsperience with Brawler or Mac vs Mega Man, but Shulk it up. DV & the Jump / Speed Arts do work not to mention using Buster with a DV counter for just the base damage alone fresh is 11.76%. It's definitely okay to stale DV if you foresee many projectile counter opportunities since DV also hits early before Vision as well.
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So for sets, the 3122 set ya mentioned already happens to be in the OP, & so is the 1122 set. I'm okay with 1122 but I feel BSL or BSC could make a better difference in a MU than regular BS.

I feel 1222 or 1322 would be slightly better than 1122

Well then I should've used 3122. Damn. I could've made it past Losers R3. The match that I got rekt as Brawler/Mac was actually streamed. I don't think I'll ever live it down.

 

[Masonomace]

Well then I should've used 3122. Damn. I could've made it past Losers R3. The match that I got rekt as Brawler/Mac was actually streamed. I don't think I'll ever live it down.

Bummer Mejores. Don't shweat it though.

In any case, should I post about options / movement inputs we can do? Like for example:

Jump Shulk: Inputting a Short Hop F-air allows for a doublejump or a Special move before taking the landing lag, & we can do whatever we want after the doublejump like say Airdodge or D-air in case they challenge us from below.

 

[Scieric]

If this isn't about setups with a custom Art, please put this in the metagame thread. If this is about DJump or HJump setups then say so, and I will be interested. Otherwise, we don't really need to discuss what Jump can do. I'm pretty sure we should already know that.

 

[Masonomace]

But Jump was just an example.

But really, I won't go out of the way to address every movement option we can do with DJump or HJump. Though I will say that because DJump & HJump have such high gravity / fall speeds, we can't even input a doublejump after performing a Short Hop with F-air. At least we can cancel the F-air's landing lag state with an Air Slash or Vision move but they halt Shulk's drifting movement upon landing. Using a Back Slash move won't halt Shulk's drifting movement from DJump's landing state thus DJump Shulk slides across the floor while performing BS BSL or BSC.

Speaking of, the landing slide feature granted by the Jump Arts especially DJump & HJump is spectacular & we could utilize that much more for two main options I've messed with recently:

1. Super sliding grab
2. Super sliding across a platform & falling off it in an instant

If you Short Hop as DJump Shulk & keep holding your direction to drift forward, you'll slide some distance upon landing right? Well take that same idea & now, Short Hop + Airdodge & keep holding towards that direction. Once you've landed on the floor & beginning the slide moment, keep holding your control stick towards that direction & input grab. If you've done it successfully you'll slide a TON of distance & connect a grab that would open your eyes. From what else I've noticed, doing a U-tilt, D-smash charged or not, & an uncharged F-smash can slide across the floor as well. This slide feature is so good that you can turn your direction around while sliding past a character to grab them from behind --- basically a pivot grab from a tomahawk no less.

To put it in perspective, imagine yourself doing a MADC & inputting U-tilt or D-smash. Now, trying the same concept but instead with DJump or HJump will result in a slide distance greater than what the MADC grants.

This also does well with platforms. The Jump, DJump, & HJump Arts can all Short Hop & land on Battlefield's lower level platforms. So what you do with that knowledge is start a SH input & drift towards the platform while doing an aerial or Airdodge so that by the time you've begun the SH input, you're already above the platform & sliding across it. Doing so most likely results in sliding all the way to the edge of that platform & you can choose to input what comes next since you can slide so far that you're physically off the platform. Inputs that can come next include:

• Normal falling --- You could just do this to slide across the platform & then get back on the floor in a quick manner & not over-committing to anything
• Back Slashes --- BSL done right as you're falling off the platform can reach the upper top platform above you. You can also do a reversed Back SLash to come from behind in a sneaky manner
• Aerial --- N-air is great with this
• Airdodge --- Even if you suffer landing lag, you can drift so that you get a slide of retreating distance
• Doublejump
• Air Slashes --- Advancing Air Slash looks sexy with this

 

[Scieric]

Yeh. The sliding is really important and I find central to his Jump combo game, and with DJump or HJump, it can go even farther, improving his combo game even more. Also, AAS on BF platforms in HJump... aeuieaoaoaeiauueiaeuoaieaueoaieuiaeaaa! DELICIOUS!

 

[Berserker.]

Decisive arts is really good. Very underrated custom art only because you can't use MALLC or MADC. It's true that it's a disadvantage to not have access to those 2 techs but decisive buster and decisive speed are like.... really good. My personal favorite is decisive buster ofc because I'm biased towards buster and decisive buster's damage increase makes Shulk's attacks safer on shield (obvious facts). Decisive jump is also really good. Default arts are still my personal favorite, of course and hyper arts is really good. They're all match-up specific, I guess. Decisive arts is probably more preferred against campers because speed lasts much longer.

Oh and btw, if you guys are worried about needing a specific custom set against windboxes, you don't have to be worried imo. Even default set is fine against those characters. If you wanted a specific custom set, I'd say you stay away from hyper arts and use decisive. You might have to be on jump art for a long time. I guess. Just learn how to use jump art for Shulk's neutral if you're willing to commit that much

- Some random tips from a guy with traumatic customs experience

 

[Scieric]

Windboxes aren't too big a deal for Shulk anyway I find. Just experience.

 

[Berserker.]

It only becomes a mess once you go off-stage but even then, jump art is really good for recovering so it doesn't really matter that much. Stay on-stage, play smart, and space properly. You won't have any issues.

 

[Masonomace]

I've said it once & I'll say it once more as a helpful warning: Don't even try to recover using an Air Slash move with any Smash Art active against windboxes. You will be blown too far away to hope your drifting will save you even with AAS. On the other hand, Shield Arts reduce the effectiveness of windboxes so it's not as bad, but a Shield Art is still not a great idea for recovering against said windbox move unless you're challenging it with DShield + AAS. Then it's almost okay to try.

DArts I feel are still underrated & that's okay. I don't expect the majority of Shulk players to agree that they're greater than MArts or HArts but I pretended (I did the math for DArts to see what their numbers would of been if they had stronger debuffs since they're the fine middle line between the MArts & HArts. Example: If you added Buster's 1.4x damage multplier & HBuster's 1.68 damage multiplier, you'd get 3.08x. Divide that by 2 & you get 1.54x, which is DBuster's damage multplier.) that DArts had drawbacks in the middle of regular Arts & Hyper Arts. When you pretend that DArts don't have the same level of drawbacks as MArts, you'll realize that DArts could have been a lot worse.

 

[Linkmario00]

I've said it once & I'll say it once more as a helpful warning: Don't even try to recover using an Air Slash move with any Smash Art active against windboxes. You will be blown too far away to hope your drifting will save you even with AAS.

Wait does Smash increase the distance you are launched by a Windbox?
About DArts, I still think they're the worse of the three (still a very good move hovever). Yes, I know they have the same drawbacks as MArts and increased advantages, and they're a good choice in certain MU because DSpeed and DJump last so much longer, but the fact that you can't interrupt them is too much for me. One error and you have to stay with an art you didn't want for 20 seconds. Let's say your changing art and at a certain point your enemy puts a big pressure on you so that you have to defend yourself and you can't change your art. Boom, you may go to DShield while you wanted to take DBuster instead. And you have to stay DShield offstage which force us to use AAS for a chance while we're open to an edgeguard. I'd like to love Darts thanks to thier indisputable strenghts but changing Arts in any moment it's too important for me to give them a chance. All this IMO obv.
Hovever I can still see some usage in one or two sets against camping characters thanks to DSpeed and DJump, so in this sense the set would probably be 2X23 so with DVision to get through projectiles.

 

[Masonomace]

Wait does Smash increase the distance you are launched by a Windbox?

Ye. Like the nature of Shield & Smash Arts reducing or increasing knockback taken, it seems that nature applies to windboxes. Whispy Woods' wind blowing doesn't apply to that nature though, which is weird.

One error and you have to stay with an art you didn't want for 20 seconds.

I will agree that it's quite a bummer to be stuck in DBuster when their percent is say, 80% or higher. This was also something I worried about with DArts, but it's actually not that easy to be stuck in a DArt you didn't want because it takes roughly 1.5 seconds for a DArt to lock in. That's plenty of time to cycle to a different DArt if you realize the DArt displayed is not what you want. It's more common cycling to an incorrect MArt or HArt & have it activated than it is to cycle to an incorrect DArt in that regard, but that incorrect MArt or HArt activation can be deactivated.

Let's say your changing art and at a certain point your enemy puts a big pressure on you so that you have to defend yourself and you can't change your art. Boom, you may go to DShield while you wanted to take DBuster instead. And you have to stay DShield offstage which force us to use AAS for a chance while we're open to an edgeguard. I'd like to love Darts thanks to thier indisputable strenghts but changing Arts in any moment it's too important for me to give them a chance. All this IMO obv.
Hovever I can still see some usage in one or two sets against camping characters thanks to DSpeed and DJump, so in this sense the set would probably be 2X23 so with DVision to get through projectiles.

Well. . . .as the Shield fanatic that I am, I'd take DShield over DBuster any day. . . .but that's not the point.

The top priority of securing the DArt you want to cycle to requires a plan far ahead of the moment that happens now. (This is why I originally thought that DArts required more ground-game & maintain stage presence until you make a move right around the same time your DArt activates.) So say you're getting rushed down or heavily walled out by projectiles from afar Shulk's mid-range, you drop shield as soon as you can & cycle however quickly you can to the DArt you need & resume back to keeping up your defense to avoid damage. That's what the longer activation time can be used for. If absolutely needed, it's not uncommon to run to the ledge & quickly run off the stage & edge-hog grab the ledge while mutl-tasking your DArt cycle. Once you have the DArt you want that's displayed, then you can drop from the ledge & ledge-hop onto the stage using an aerial like N-air or F-air & DALLC by the time you land.

Stuff like that helps secure your activation while playing safely if pressure becomes troubling. Use the best of Shulk's frame data: shield, roll, spotdodge, airdodge, even pivoting grab or F-tilt as a retreating option is fine.

EDIT: Idk how I didn't think of it, but DVision & PVision are great Jargon terms to name them.

 

[Berserker.]

There's nothing wrong with being stuck in DBuster when your opponent is at kill percent. What's wrong with tacking on more percentage with buster art? The higher the percentage, the easier it is to kill off the opponent

 

[Masonomace]

There's nothing wrong with being stuck in DBuster when your opponent is at kill percent. What's wrong with tacking on more percentage with buster art? The higher the percentage, the easier it is to kill off the opponent

In my case, I played a Customs Shulk ditto where both my opponent & I were using DArts. I was cycling to DSmash to attempt finishing their stock because their percent was ~85% while I had ~52%. I had a decent momentary percent lead but I was interrupted in a way that I couldn't cycle to DSmash so I was stuck on DBuster & we were both on our last stock iirc. The result was me losing because they cycled to DShield shortly after to counter the weak knockback / hitstun I dealt on top of being unable to take their stock & then Power Vision got my number. . .DBuster hitting a PVision counter is. . .painful. Dealing tons of damage to DShield means very little because that Art won't die & is the perfect Rage collector for making PVision KO much much earlier.

I learned from the mistakes I made to say the least. I could of just played defensively & patiently, but being game 3 & on last stock it got to me.

 

[Linkmario00]

EDIT: Idk how I didn't think of it, but DVision & PVision are great Jargon terms to name them.

Lol thanks man.
However the point of DArts isn't that you can make an error (which is still a problem). The point is that they force you to have a particular playstyle for 20 seconds. Let's say for example I'm vs a DDD and I Go To DSmash to take his stock in 5 seconds. Now for 15 seconds I have to run away because DDD can take my stock at 50 while in Smash, and I have to do it without the optimal art.
Another example, I'm vs C. Falcon and I want to approach him in DJump then change to DBuster when I've put him in a disadvantage position for more damage, but I can't because I'm stucked in Jump.
IMO on of the most important thing for playing Shulk is to change the Art based on the moment of the match and DArts don't let you do this, it's as simple as that

 

[Masonomace]

Lol thanks man.
However the point of DArts isn't that you can make an error (which is still a problem). The point is that they force you to have a particular playstyle for 20 seconds. Let's say for example I'm vs a DDD and I Go To DSmash to take his stock in 5 seconds. Now for 15 seconds I have to run away because DDD can take my stock at 50 while in Smash, and I have to do it without the optimal art.
Another example, I'm vs C. Falcon and I want to approach him in DJump then change to DBuster when I've put him in a disadvantage position for more damage, but I can't because I'm stucked in Jump.
IMO on of the most important thing for playing Shulk is to change the Art based on the moment of the match and DArts don't let you do this, it's as simple as that

I feel you. DArts hold Shulk back because they can't deactivate when the pace of the match shifts to a favorable or unfavorable instance, but DArts improve Shulk's Neutral including DSmash > Smash. Even though you'd be stuck in DSmash vs DDD, you still take increased knockback that's helpful enough to escape Jab & any move you use can deflect Gordos back despite that your damage is cut in half. The only way DDD can KO you at 50% is with a smash attack or any telegraphed move like an aerial & that will be obvious. DSmash also has combos against DDD because he's a heavy fast faller & DSmash has the right blend of knockback to F-air string him or even U-throw > U-tilt / Air Slash. Running away & avoiding the battle is fine to do but just in case something must be done, you do have options.

I still agree with you like everyone else who has brought up this point:

IMO one of the most important things for playing Shulk is to change the Art based on the moment of the match

Yet, DSpeed DShield & DBuster are much, much better Arts compared to Speed Shield & Buster in Neutral. DJump is also great except for the slight chance you're getting juggled / combo'd then it's not pretty.

 

[Linkmario00]

Yeah, DDD was only an example, that could also work with a much faster character like Falcon.
I know DArts give Shulk a better neutral and I think they deserve one or two sets for certain MU, but really, changing art is too important. It's not only what YOU want to do that's limited, but also your opponent will know what you can and cannot do for 20 seconds making you a lot more predictable and this is bad for a character like Shulk that needs a constant mix up.
Also, MALLC and MADC are gone and with time I feel they will have a very important role in Shulk's Metagame.
Plus, HArts give Shulk an even better neutral with more drawbacks and they are ideal for successive MALLC.
Just my two cents

 

[Berserker.]

You get a much more solid neutral and a more rewarding advantage with decisive arts if we compare it to default arts. Only reason why I'd say that DArts gives you a much more solid neutral is because utilizing default arts all rides on you making sure that you utilize the art properly and avoid having your weaknesses exploited during the activated art. This is why each art is used at a specific time (and they have a purpose at that set moment). Default definitely handles the disadvantaged state the best imo because of course, you can switch to jump or shield to escape from the disadvantage. Hyper arts is a bit at the middle roads with that because the nerfs from the monado art effects are really massive. Like, escaping juggles is much easier because HJump is ridiculous but if you get hit then lmao whelp. Worse, jump lasts for like 6 seconds and you'll mostly reserve that for recovering. Basically, shield is your only option at a disadvantage because it's a horrible idea to use jump on stage (hyper jump, I mean). Let's be real here, fast falling (if done right) with HJump makes your FF N-airs safe. Sure. But what if you get grabbed or hit? Dear god that would be really horrible. So yeah. Now.... to decisive... it's the worst at handling the disadvantage unless you're committing to jump art which is a risk by itself if you're not careful. Once you're in an art not named jump or shield, your options at a disadvantage are limited. This is really bad for Shulk. It's something that most of the speed-believers (aka those who say that speed art is the 20xx for Shulk mains) keep forgetting. No, speed art doesn't help with escaping juggles. It doesn't help with escaping combos either unlike Jump. I mean, yeah. You take more damage in jump but you take more knockback and you escape combos easily with that.

My 1 cent on the matter

 

[Scieric]

@ Linkmario00 Finally! Someone gets why HArts aren't as good! The Arts are about capitalizing on your current situation. The flow of battle can change in less than 2 seconds, then you're stuck for the rest of the Art? That's not how it should be!

 

[Berserker.]

@ Linkmario00 Finally! Someone gets why HArts aren't as good! The Arts are about capitalizing on your current situation. The flow of battle can change in less than 2 seconds, then you're stuck for the rest of the Art? That's not how it should be!

HArts? Don't you mean DArts?

 

[Masonomace]

So. . . . . . . .Who's got any good times to share using HArts DArts BSC or MAS?

I've had good times with HArts & ofc DArts but BSC & MAS not so much. I'm still trying to improve my skills with those specials but it's going meh so far. Also, I feel that MArts DArts & HArts do fantastic with AAS regardless. HBuster Shulk's two-hitting AAS deals 23% & you can hold your control stick backwards to make the move safer on-hit, 'cus AAS's drifting is awesome like that.

When you rely on an oos option like AS, put on AAS instead & love it.

 

[Scieric]

HArts? Don't you mean DArts?

Oh, yes. Thatnk you.

EDIT: It's been a really long time. Why has nobody been responding?

 

[erico9001]

I have completed the degrees of inclination for Shulk's recoveries! I've also reviewed it and fixed any math or recording errors. This time, higher degree = longer distance recovered. Umm, these values cannot be exact, due to using platforms uniformly spaced apart. The platforms are pretty close together, so there is not going to be much difference. However, monado jump and decisive jump probably do not have the exact same drift angle, even though it reads like they do.

Form of recovery|Neutral fall angle|Monado Jump's angle|Decisive Jump's angle|Hyper Jump's angle|Monado Speed's angle|Decisive Speed's angle|Hyper Speed's angle
Just drifting|–49.6°| –42°| –42°|–43.5°|–40°|–37.8|–35°
Drift with an air jump|–35.9°| –18°| –16.7°|–15.4°|–25.4°|–23°|–23°
Drift then Air Slash|–34°| –19.3°| –16.7 |–15.4°|–19.3°|–19°|–14°
Drift then Advancing Air Slash|–29.9°| –23°| –21.8°|–20.6°|–19.3°|–18°|–16.7°
Drift then Mighty Air Slash| –34°|–24.2°| –15.4°|–12.7°|–20.6°|–18°|–14°
Drift, air jump, and Air Slash| –11.3°|+14°| +18°| +18°|+1.4°|+2.9°| +2.9°
Drift, air jump, and Advancing Air Slash|–5.7°| +9.9°| +12.7°|+12.7°| +1.4°|+1.4°| –1.4°
Drift, air jump, and Mighty Air Slash| –12.7°|+16.6°| +18°|+21.8°|0°| 0°| 0°

Discussion:
- As Mace wrote, the most efficient way to recover with mighty air slash - for both vertical and horizontal length - is to use both strikes very quickly. Given this, I retested the mighty air slashes and updated the tables with the information.

Spoiler: custom Speed arts have noticeable, significant air speed differences

- You'll notice that decisive speed and hyper speed make quite the difference with angle of inclination. This is just due to the higher speed each of them have. With the earlier tests of decisive speed, this air speed difference did not appear as strongly, because as Mace has shown me, Decisive Speed actually has lower jump height than regular speed

Spoiler: Mighty Air Slash is now better for recovery than previously thought. Quite significant differences with Jump

- Now that we know the true way to maximize recovery with mighty air slash, it has shown to be better in all fields, giving it a more significant lead over regular air slash while in Monado Jump. It also happens to beat advancing air slash when it comes to Hyper Speed.

Spoiler: Mighty Air Slash does improve recovery distance if you are in regular/hyper arts and switch to it

-If using regular arts or Hyper arts, it does not matter much that mighty air slash has the least total distance traveled other than jump arts and Hyper Speed. We always just switch to Jump if we need the extra recovery, anyways. Looking at it like that, mighty air slash does have the best recovery IF you make sure to save Monado Jump for when you need it!

Spoiler: Decisive Arts + Mighty Air Slash: Not good

-Mighty Air Slash is not an overall optimal choice to pair with decisive arts. It only benefits recovery if you happen to be in Monado Jump. You've cut your recovery on all arts other than that one. This means you're move vulnerable in Smash, Buster, Speed, and especially Shield. Decisive Shield is an amazing benefit to using decisive arts, but with mighty air slash, you might as well be dead if you end up off-stage!

Spoiler: Mighty Air Slash + Hyper arts = maybe good

-Mighty Air Slash does appear to help out Hyper Arts. Hyper Jump + MAS has insane height and rising speed. What these angles do not show is the vertical height helps out Hyper Speed, which often finds it hard to edgeguard. Of course, mighty air slash has an easy to intercept path. However, its speed can make up for it. Also, make sure to take advantage of any stage lips. I would not recommend mighty air slash on a stage like duck hunt, which does not have one.

Spoiler: Advancing Air Slash + Hyper Arts = maybe not as great, but maybe ok

-Advancing Air Slash has comparatively worse recovery in hyper arts. Arts do not last long, and can be deactivated to switch to Speed or Jump at any time. Hyper Shield could benefit, but is so resistant to knockback that it probably won't need it. If it did, again, Jump or Speed. However, recovery with advancing air slash and hyper speed is pretty bad, as you can actually see from the degrees on the chart. It travels a decent distance horizontally, like mighty air slash does vertically, but lacks the vertical height to make the difference. You lose some edgeguarding capabilities. For instance, you cannot run off the edge and use an immediate Dair, for you will not make it back. You also cannot detach from the ledge and use Bair. Still, Advancing Air Slash has its attacking capabilities, as well as the potential to be able to save Monado Jump for a time it is needed.

Spoiler: Hyper Jump hurts drifts between first and second strikes of AS/AAS

-Hyper Jump has pretty much the same recoveries as Decisive jump with advancing and regular air slash, because the fall speed hurts the drifting you typically do between the first and second strike. In fact, hyper jump with regular air slash kind of resembles the shape of mighty air slash.

Spoiler: You can see the effect Hyper Speed's super low jump height has on recovery

-You'll notice that Hyper Speed's value for drifting + air jump is the same as Decisive Speed's value there. The fact that Hyper Speed does have a higher angle than Decisive Speed when just drifting shows the effect of how small Hyper Speed's air jump is.

Spoiler: Hyper Speed + Regular Air Slash = Amazing drift speeds between AS slashes

-Regular Air Slash with hyper speed has a very long drift distance between the first and second strike. This is why there is such a difference between decisive speed and hyper speed, while there is no such difference between regular speed and decisive speed.

Spoiler: As you get the stronger Jump arts, your recovery angle does decrease a little bit. Jumping alleviates that.

Indeed!

So... yep! Trigonometry is useful. Wish I could say the same about Calculus of Several Variables.
/

 

[Masonomace]

Some notes to add on about the Air Slash variants heights with arts:

• Speed art doesn't reduce the vertical height of both hits of Air Slash, Advancing Air Slash, or Mighty Air Slash at all
• Shield DShield & HShield arts don't reduce the vertical height of Air Slash, Advancing Air Slash, or Mighty Air Slash at all
• DSpeed slightly reduces the 1st hit's vertical height for Air Slash & Advancing Air Slash, but DSpeed doesn't reduce the 1st hit's vertical height for Mighty Air Slash
• DSpeed reduces the 2nd hit's vertical height for Air Slash & Mighty Air Slash, and DSpeed also worsens the 2nd hit's vertical height for Advancing Air Slash by making Shulk descend lower than Vanilla or Speed
• DSpeed & HSpeed have the same vertical height for the 1st hit of Air Slash & Advancing Air Slash
• HSpeed slightly reduces the 1st hit's vertical height for Mighty Air Slash
• HSpeed reduces the 2nd hit's vertical height for Air Slash & Mighty Air Slash, and HSpeed also worsens the 2nd hit's vertical height for Advancing Air Slash by making Shulk descend slightly lower than DSpeed
• Jump DJump & HJump arts increase the 1st hit's vertical height for Air Slash, Advancing Air Slash, & Mighty Air Slash
• Jump DJump & HJump arts increase the 2nd hit's vertical height for Air Slash & Mighty Air Slash, but Jump DJump & HJump also worsen the 2nd hit's vertical height for Advancing Air Slash by making Shulk descend even lower than Vanilla

EDIT: Additional Notes that we may or mayn't have already known:

• Air Slash's drifting speed is in the middle of Advancing Air Slash & Mighty Air Slash. You might be asking, "what does that mean exactly?" --- It means that delaying the 2nd slash as late as you're able to without being too late inputting it will bring out the maximum horizontal drifting potential for Air Slash, but by delaying the 2nd slash later & later, you'll either only sacrifice a bit or some of vertical height for AS AAS or MAS's recovery. It also means that Advancing Air Slash's drifting speed is souped up & Mighty Air Slash's drifting speed is much more inferior. In a strange way, the Speed art can be compared to as the middle art in terms of air speed since the Jump art has higher air speed whereas the Shield art has lower air speed (But the Jump art also does increase fall speed, which makes Air Slash recovering a mixed feeling but mostly for the better). So in this case for Air Slash, the Speed art not decreasing the vertical height for the 1st & 2nd hits of Air Slash will make Speed a more prime art to use for maximizing Air Slash's drifting speed when recovering horizontally.
  
  
• Drifting speed during AS, AAS, or MAS can also be directed forward & backward. And like I mentioned in the first bulletin, AAS out of the three variants has the best drift speed while MAS has the worst drift speed. This basically means drifting backward is more helpful with using AAS whereas MAS drifted backward isn't really helpful at all.
  
  
• There is no different timings to when you can delay the 2nd slash for AS AAS & MAS. You can delay them all as long as you can possible can. The only reason that I can think of why we'd want to delay MAS's 2nd hit is to make sure you'd optimize out on the vertical height of the move with some drifting to it. Otherwise, it's better to mash the MAS input in order to get the best horizontal drifting movement with still enough good vertical recovery. For AS & AAS, delaying the 2nd hit as late as possible guarantees that we get the maximum horizontal recovery out of it, & if you want the best of both worlds (that being horizontal & vertical) then you wait until your AS's or AAS's 1st hit reaches its apex before inputting the 2nd hit.

EDIT #2: Some pictures to show good moments of when to delay AS1 / AAS1 / MAS1 whether Shulk is facing left or right. Just remember that delaying MAS1 isn't as important since the drift speed for MAS is the worst out of the three. MAS mashed quickly while holding your joystick toward a direction is the best horizontal distance you can get, but like these images show for delaying AS1 / AAS1 to get the best vertical height, MAS1 thrives on that key moment to maximize its vertical recovery too. With that said, these images are primarily more for AS & AAS.

When Facing Left

When Facing Right

​

Hoped that the extra edits helped.

 

[Masonomace]

Bump~

I want to post about the Decisive arts apparent drawback level said to be the same as Monado arts. I'll list the differences & similarities I know of that we may or may not have known before. I'll show this little table for a reference too.

Monado Art | Increased stats | Decreased stats Jump | Jump height, Air speed, Fall speed, Air Slash height | Defense Speed | Ground speed, Air speed, Traction | Damage dealt, Jump height Shield | Defense, Knockback resistance, Shield health & regeneration | Damage dealt, Jump height, Ground speed, Air speed Buster | Damage dealt on-hit & on-shield, Shield Push dealt | Defense, Knockback dealt Smash | Knockback dealt | Damage dealt on-hit & on-shield, Shield Push dealt, Knockback resistance

Monado Jump & Decisive Jump

• Monado Jump has less jump height, air speed, fall speed, & air slash height than Decisive Jump. However, with recent discoveries from Eric, if you buffer the Monado Jump art's deactivation & perform an aerial or airdodge quickly you will jump higher without falling faster.
• Even though both arts look like they jump the same height, they're not because Decisive Jump has higher fall speed & gravity to nullify the better jump height it has.
• Defense stat is the same. They both share the same damage taken multiplier.
• It's not listed in the table, but Decisive Jump does have a greater landing friction slide than Monado Jump.

Monado Speed & Decisive Speed

• Decisive Speed has greater ground speed, air speed, & traction than Monado Speed, but the traction increase feels inconsistent.
• Both Monado Speed & Decisive Speed have the same Damage dealt multiplier.
• Decisive Speed actually has a lower jump height than Monado Speed.

Monado Shield & Decisive Shield

• Decisive Shield has a greater defense stat, take less knockback, & more Shield health and regeneration than Monado Shield.
• Monado Shield & Decisive Shield have the exact same damage dealt, jump height, ground speed, & air speed.

Monado Buster & Decisive Buster

• Both have the same defense stat, knockback dealt, & damage received multiplier. Decisive Buster only looks like it barely deals more knockback because it has a higher damage dealt multiplier.
• Decisive Buster deals greater damage on-hit & on-shield, & more shield knockback than Monado Buster.

Monado Smash & Decisive Smash

• Both deal the same damage on-hit & on-shield, & shield knockback. They also have the same knockback received multiplier.
• Decisive Smash has a greater knockback dealt multiplier than Monado Smash.

Most of this post seemed like common knowledge except for maybe Decisive Speed having a lower jump height than Monado Speed, & Monado Shield and Decisive Shield staying true with the motive of this post in that their drawbacks are exactly the same.

 

[Linkmario00]

After the buffs probably there's no reason to use a custom BS. It's sad to lose BSC super armor but hey,we have better punishes now. Also I still think DArts are the worst of the three, even more with the new MADTD

 

[Berserker.]

We just call MADTD MABD or buffered deactivation in short

But yeah, the more we keep up with evolving the Monado art's utility, the more DArts become irrelevant

 

[erico9001]

Regular Monado Arts

We all know how to use Regular Monado Arts. They're okay, but they lack something important. Power. These are the weakest of the monado arts, and it shows. You will still die when in Monado Shield, and Shield doesn't really get you out of combos. Smash may raise your kill percents, but the payoff can be low. Buster has nice damage, but you still get punished on shield. Speed is fast, but slow enough so that it misses out on combo opportunities, has worse cross-ups, less punish opportunities. etc.

You get safety in that you have access to each different monado art more than both decisive and hyper arts, but as a result, the arts will just have less impact. You get more freedom with what arts you can choose, but they are worth less as a result.

Decisive Monado Arts

These sure have power. All of the arts are more useful than their regular Monado Arts counterparts.

- Decisive Buster deals 1.54x damage rather than 1.4x damage, which means more damage of course (to set up for later knockback) and safer hits on shield. You deal a lot of damage. Do you have trouble evening out the damage you take vs damage you deal while in regular Monado Buster? Well, this should make that difference.

- Decisive Speed has combos which connect much more fluently, and it matters less when the opponent has good DI. You just go faster! It's great. You can feel the speed. Everything you wished worked in regular Monado Speed now works.

- Decisive Shield is totally anti-meta. Gets you out of combos, lets you survive until very late percents.

- Decisive Jump is pretty scary with its faster fall speed, which allows you to take advantage of situations where the opponent is open quicker. The air speed helps you make combos, and helps you to escape combos/follow-ups. And better recovery too.

- Decisive Smash actually gets kills. How's it feel to have a Ness B-throw? Decisive Smash is actually VERY menacing, because it lasts for a long time, meaning you're eventually going to get the kill! All you need is that grab, that dash attack, that frame trap, and the opponent is dead. Having 20 seconds of it, a small break, and then another 20 seconds of it, means you are very likely to get the kill. Stalling out while in decisive smash is not actually hard.

Since all these arts are so nice, you'll want as much time with them that you can get. They are available to you for 20 seconds, and only take 5 seconds to come back once gone.

What's the catch? Well, it's in the name. You must be decisive. Since you cannot cancel monado arts, you must make a decision and commit to it. What's important in decisions? Knowledge! Have a good idea of which of the arts benefit you, and you should find decisive Monado Arts improve your gameplay, a lot. However, if you do not know what is good to use against an opponent, you will not be able to experiment as much to find out. If you pick the wrong one, you will need to pay for longer. Though, picking 'the wrong one' with decisive monado arts is easier said than done, for again, all arts are excellent.

You do lose some techs, and get to use the others less frequently. Tech is great and all, but being more powerful trumps that. You gain a better neutral, which is more important.

Hyper Arts

These are nice. I actually prefer them to regular arts now! Here is my current overview, and I must remind you that I am not exaggerating.

Hyper Jump: During these 6 seconds, you don't want to be hit. It's easy to avoid attacks with how fast you are in every way via air. On the other hand, you have good offense. The fall speed allows you to more easily punish opponents who commit to attacks, which you may have baited. Then, the air speed allows you to carry that aerial you used into another aerial. In general, for this art, I recommend to be careful and maintain your spacing. Do not use this art if you are not comfortable with it. You slowly work into becoming comfortable with hyper jump.

Hyper Speed: The idea here is to overwhelm the opponent. However, you still do not have good frame data. Still space them out, and don't let them land.

Hyper Shield: Lol @ their attacks. Attacks that would normally kill you now MIGHT send you to the edge of the stage from the middle. Other than that, some uses to this art are making it safe onto land from air, momentary stalls (always a good idea to use as filler for cooldown), and getting out of combos..

Hyper Buster: This is scary. If I'm vs this art, my focus is really brought in. Things become serious. This game can go either way very quickly.. If you have the percent lead and the opponent puts this on, you want to be patient. If you are the person using Hyper Buster, you want to have the positioning advantage before you use this art, so that you get the most from the 6 seconds. This advantage will also prevent you from taking damage yourself.

Hyper Smash: Similar to Hyper Buster in regards to usage. You want to put this on in a time where the opponent is pressured. Gain the advantage first, by using some other arts or even Vanilla, then put it on. While it's not necessary that you have the advantage, without it, you might waste this incredibly useful art or even get yourself killed.

---The Hyper Monado Arts are very centralized around Hyper Buster/Hyper Smash. Those two arts have the most impact.

Now, these Monado Arts are hard to manage at first. My general strategy is to use Shield and Speed as filler arts, as I wait for an opportunity to use Buster or Hyper Smash. I might use Monado Jump, but am still a bit iffy about it in the neutral. I mostly use it for situations like a quick reset, getting some movement in on the opponent before I quickly change to another art, or recovering.

You do have MALLC and other techniques with Hyper Arts. So, good for you if you like those. Still, I personally perform better with Decisive Arts, even though I do use lots of MALLC.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Alright, so with that discussed, I will go into combining different customs into sets.

We, rushed, decided on this for EVO:
1113 - bland but needed
2113 - Not too much use over 2123. Might be good to keep, will go into more detail.
3113 - decent, should stay
1123 - a staple
3123 - actually good, will discuss why
3213 - unneeded, especially with regular back slash being buffed now
1122 - Dash vision yay
3122 - Understandable, but I'm iffy about it. I need to test dash vision + hyper arts.

1213 - Unneeded
2123 - So glad this made it in.

Okay, so to get this started, here is just my idea of the sets...

0) Default
1) 1113
2) 1123
3) 1122
4) 2123
5) 2122
6) 3113
7) 3123
8) 3122
-
9) 2112
10) 2322

Sets explained:

1113:
This is just your no customs set with power vision instead of regular vision. Good for people who do not understand much about Shulk's customs. Not bad, either.

1123:
Same as the previous, but with Advancing Air Slash. Advancing Air Slash is a nice move. A lot of people prefer it to regular air slash. Move is described further in the op.

1122: Same as previous, but power vision has been swapped for dash vision. This set will take a bit more skill, for dash vision has a smaller frame to activate. However, the reward of having that extra option against projectiles makes it worth it. Dash Vision still kills, and is actually better for gimps too.

2123:
This set focuses on Decisive Arts with Advancing Air Slash, a combo which allows you to utilize Decisive Shield in order to survive until very late percents. It is a quite potent threat, once you get used to using Decisive Monado Arts and Advancing Air Slash.

2122:
Dash Vision rounds out this set's utility, giving it suitable options against projectiles while in arts other than speed and jump.

3113:
Like the first set, but with hyper arts. Hyper Jump + Regular Air Slash can reach the ledge from the bottom blast zone on FD.

3123:
Advancing Air Slash is actually very useful for hyper arts. With hyper buster, hyper smash, and hyper jump, safety is needed. Advancing Air Slash, due to dealing more damage and being safer, is an excellent choice for the hyper monado arts, which centralize around hyper buster and hyper smash. As for recovery, the height of advancing air slash with hyper jump is 'good enough'. Do treat it like more of a vertical recovery, however.

3122 - All the other arts get dash vision, why not hyper arts? Advancing Air Slash is used over regular air slash when paired with dash vision, because both are good for facing projectile users.

2112:
Seems useless compared to 2122 at first, but it has a distinct role. Some projectiles really stink for advancing air slash. For example, all of Lucario's Neutral B's. Another would be Samus's fully charged shot. Sometimes, Air Slash is just needed. So, even though 2122 is generally better, 2112 needs use in some cases.
As for why dash vision is used instead of power vision, the very reason we are using regular air slash is these annoying projectiles. Projectile -> dash vision.

2322 basically focuses around decisive shield and being anti-meta. Decisive Shield gets you out of combos, Back Slash Charge gets you out of combos (Rob U-throw -> Uair just came to mind as one... Doesn't on this combo, see below for details), and dash vision prevents decisive shield from being zoned out. Back Slash Charge can also be an alternative recovery for decisive shield.

Possible others:

N) 1133 - I've tried mighty air slash in some more matches, and I still do not like it. What gets me now is the ease to which opponents get away from the second hit due to DI. All the other downsides still apply though, don't worry. Before putting mighty air slash into an official set, we need to seriously test this and make sure it deserves it. The spot means a lot. We should not just throw it in for the ideal of having all air slashes available.

N) 3133
This sounds op, but is actually extremely risky with hyper arts. If you miss with mighty air slash in hyper smash, hyper buster, or hyper jump, expect a lot of bad stuff. The only real use is with recovery, but regular air slash already has that more than covered as explained in the description for 3113.

N) 1112 or 3112
I would argue for advancing air slash with dash vision rather than regular air slash with dash vision for a couple reasons. First, both advancing air slash and regular air slash are good against projectiles. They're two options. Then, people who pick dash vision are more likely to actually know about customs, and so more likely to also like advancing air slash. You could say that my reasoning for 2112 could apply again here (like Lucario's neutral B), but since with hyper and regular arts monado jump can be activated from any art, advancing air slash can become that more vertical recovery move which is needed.

Other things worth noting:

Power vision vs Dash Vision​

Power vision: due to being slow while having the same slowing effect as the other visions, it is worse against 3 types of things:
1) Projectiles
2) Fast attacks
3) Moving attacks

If the opponent is using an attack with a minimal amount of end-lag, they can dodge before power vision hits. Moving attacks like dash attacks can give power vision trouble as well, since they get out of the way before it hits. Finally, after considering no version of vision triggers a slowing effect onto the opponent, since power vision is so slow, they can actually kind of dance around you for a little bit before punishing you.

Dash vision: Has many uses over power vision.
1) Can work against many projectiles, fast attacks, and moving attacks.
2) Has less end-lag, which means more maintenance of your stage control.
3) Has a lower knockback angle. In the air, it can gimp people, and on the ground, it can force people to tech (or miss their tech)

Dash vision still does kill nice and early. Not as early as power vision, more like regular vision. Compared to regular vision, the main drawback is it has a lesser window of activation, meaning more skill is needed to use it.

They're both good, but like, don't use power vision vs mega man or something. Dash vision is useful. In fact, I say it rounds out many of the issues we Shulks face. Primarily in that we don't have much to do against projectiles. Dash vision is that thing we can do. We also can have issue against people with fast attacks, and it is nice to be able to hit them without chance of them spot dodging and punishing.

Another use dash vision has is it is safer at times where power vision might get punished, like when in buster at low percent, or something.

Dash vision's lower angle gives opponents a harder time recovering after hit away by it. This is nice for us. We might get an Fair on them to finish the job, or whatnot.

Dash vision can be used to intercept off-stage, just like power vision. Works against everybody I posted about here (tested =) ):

Ah, oh well about Fox and Falco. I tried that with power vision as well, and it did not work. Neither did dash vision. But yeah, it's deadly if you counter the start up of his up B!


Dash Vision doesn't actually send you very far if activated in the air... so it seems viable for this strategy too.

Power Vision is also great.


Something to keep in mind about this strategy is you want to fall into the recovery, or you will miss. You need to be higher up, or you will fall too low below the recovery. Also, be sure to use the move far away from the edge if they snap to it (most do).


I'm testing all of these with power vision.


Works great against Ness. I am sure this kills at incredibly early percents. Even the time when I timed the counter to soon, since he hit the counter, his recovery distance was shortened.


Works deliciously against Donkey Kong. On FD in training mode, it kills him even before 70% damage.


Against Charizard, it can work if he recovers low. You might hit him during his super armor if you activate at the way start of his recovery move. If you activate near the end, you won't hit him, as he will grab the edge. Overall, it can work against Charizard, but it's hard.


It works well against Link if you use it high enough above him, otherwise he will get out of the way of the move. The other option is to use it behind him, as the sword spins around him. You will counter backwards and stage spike him. The same is true for Toon Link, but the lower range on his move makes it a bit harder to run into with the counter.


Works well against Samus if you are far enough from the edge.


I can't get the opportunity to test it against ZSS... Does not work for Marth, and you would want to gimp him with Fair anyways. No for Ike. Apparently he has super armor at the way start of his up B, and that is the only time it would work. It does not slow down Wii Fit Trainer at all. An off-stage counter on her soccer ball might work, though. Does not work on Mario. Does not work on Doctor Mario.


Works really well on Luigi's cyclone down B! Nice way to respond to Luigis recovering low. You might take 1 damage with minimal knockback, which ends the counter immediately after it hits him. This makes it even easier to recover. It works against Luigi's up B only at the top and if he does not snap the edge.


Excellent against Peach's umbrella. You might take 1% damage/tiny knockback.


The move is extremely good against Bowser's up B. When your counter hits him, you will take 3% damage/tiny knockback, like Luigi and Peach.


I am having a hard time testing against both Wario's up B and his bike. No idea. Can't get it to work against Game and Watch too.


Works against Little Mac's up B (he doesn't snap to the edge). Can work on his side B, but why not use Fair instead, as it does not require his hitbox to hit you


Meta Knight does not seem to work. Might work if he activates it at the loop he makes, but GL.


You cannot counter Yoshi's egg mid-air.


This works against Mii Brawler's piston punch. However, I don't feel like testing all the other miis and their recoveries.


So, power vision works against:

(piston punch) (probably )

Unsure about:


Also, unsure about custom recoveries. Probably works against any slower custom recoveries.


Edit: Also, vision does not slow down horizontal movement as well as I thought it did. Usually best if you jump off the stage.


Recovery is not an issue as long as you have your air jump. I was able to recover with just the first strike of advancing air slash.

Back Slash Charge​

I did some testing today with @ Scieric about what back slash charge gets out of.
-Can BSC out of Sheik combos, but the end-lag will make it punishable if you do not use it strategically.
-Cannot BSC out of Rob D-throw -> Uair combo.
-Can BSC out of Luigi down-throw combos, and not get punished unless Luigi sees it coming.
-Cannot BSC out of Mii Brawler up B combo, but monado shield means we don't care about that anyways.
-Can BSC out of Meta Knight D-throw -> Uair -> Uair -> (...) -> Up B and Dash Atack -> Uair -> Uair -> (...) -> Up B

That's what we've tested so far.

So yeah! Ideas for discussion:
-What do you think about the different monado arts, now that time has passed?
-Do you think BSC is useful?
-What do you think about the sets?
etc. Post whatever you want of course .

 

[Goesasu]

@ erico9001 amazing post.

IMO this are the 9 staples.

1113
1123
1122

2113
2123
2122

3113
3123
3122

This 9 sets serve 1 purpose: 3 options for every monado art, also its the more "fair" approach.
One with regular air slash and power vision for more conservative people.
The other two with AAS (because its better) mixing dash vision and power vision. IMO the better choices.

-BSC its not useful, the endlag kills it.

-All arts are useful, All of them and its a matter of preference.

Regular arts are just ok, being able to input jump or smash when you need it its the true benefit.
Its uncommon to desacivate speed or buster, shield only if you are sent offstage.
Regular shield its not very good, doesnt decrease the knockback enough.

Decesive arts makes every art truly shine. The 5 extra 5 secs and 5 secs of cooldown allows you to really commit to an art. You can become a Dspeed or Dbuster specialist, and when the % dictates Dshield.
Decesive shield is amazing, allows to survive till 180% average.
Decesive speed and buster are godsend.
Decesive smash its good but risky, once you get the stock its time to stall until the art desactivates.
Decesive jump is good, just not fond of it.

Hyper arts makes Hspeed and Hshield not that good.
Hsmash and Hbuster truly shines.(still risky)
H jump its ok for recovery and thats it.

AAS is better than regular AS, safer and stronger. Only drawback is that you cant try to meteor below unless you have jump art active.

Hoping the meta allows customs, shulk really benefits from them makng him even more appealing and deep.

 

[Scarhi]

Since we'd probably want to cover as many situations/match-ups as possible using all sets, MAS might deserve one set as a counterpick option against opponents who want to take us to Halberd or similar low-ceiling stages ^^

If we follow this idea, BSC should have one set as well, especially if it can escape Meta Knight's death combo. (I faced a Meta Knight in tournament a month ago, and I'm pretty sure the match-up would be in Shulk's favor if not for this combo, since Shulk usually has a very hard time escaping it, and his frame data makes it really hard not to eventually get hit by a Dash Attack). The 2322 set erico mentionned should do the job

About Monado Arts, I'd still say that they're MU dependent. I'd usually use either Regular Arts or Decisive Arts depending on how much more Decisive Arts would make me win the neutral game against this particular character and how bad his disadvantaged state is.
I like being able to play the neutral with Speed/Jump (sometimes Buster) and immediately switch to Buster/Smash when I gain a positional advantage with Regular Arts but if the character I'm facing can escape disadvantage really easily I might be better off with a better neutral(Decisive Arts).
Another thought I had: with enough practice Hyper Arts might become strictly superior to Regular Arts at their job but I'm not sure how reliable they are. (couldn't practice with them enough since customs are banned at most tournaments in Europe =/)

 

[Berserker.]

I think Hyper arts is great against bad match-ups. You're going to need to amplify your reward from winning the neutral a few times so hyper arts is probably the best art for that matter

 

[Scieric]

I like Hyper Arts vs Rosalina. Hyper Shield is an automatic landing for you.

 

[Masonomace]

H'allrighty. The tourney I attended lately allowing EVO custom sets was neat but lacking to me.

Right now there is no set that has Decisive arts with Dash Vision and frankly that troubled me. I had to decide between 2123 & 1122 alternating after a match based off my performance with each set, so I approve of 2122 as a potential candidate set. What I found troubling was playing with Decisive Shield Buster or Smash arts against characters possessing projectiles like Diddy's bananas & peanuts, or moves like Sonic's Hammer Spin Dash since It's not that easy punishing these things without a great & fast punish move like Dash Vision, or if you're on-point with other options to answer them. It could be me because I'm a Shield fanatic, but frankly I enjoy the anti-meta potential Decisive Shield has & it's basically the one art that's essentially a straight upgrade from Monado Shield as long as you have AAS alleviating Decisive Shield's recovery drawback. Decisive Speed basically seems like a straight upgrade 'cus it pretty much is, but it's not completely an upgrade because it has a lower jump height than Monado Speed to the point Decisive Speed slightly reduces the overall vertical height of any Air Slash variant whereas the Shield arts do not. The height difference to the AS variant doesn't seem that bad but add on the fact that our doublejump is lowered and it becomes more clear. Since AAS has some anti-projectile strategy to it, Dash Vision provides as a reliable and relatively more-used counter for it's counter window regenerating more quickly. It's capable of shutting down some tactics with my slow yet anti-meta DArt.

Although I liked BSL, the wonderful BS frame startup buff is very, very appreciative, which causes me to steer to the idea that every set be X1XX. BSC to me still holds enough merit to be on one set just because Super Armor starts on frame 1 and ends on frame 30. The endlag urges me not wanting its inclusion, but for the sake of SA frames and potential to avoid a combo on a favorable stage, it can be of use at some points in a match including Doubles or even 4v4 quads.

That's it for now. Oh, and I'm not too comfortable with HArts vs Mega Man but I do like HArts vs RosaLuma.

EDIT: In regards to MAS, we should consider this blast zone data thread in case we get counterpicked to those stages.

 

[Scieric]

@ erico9001 amazing post.

IMO this are the 9 staples.

1113
1123
1122

2113
2123
2122

3113
3123
3122

This 9 sets serve 1 purpose: 3 options for every monado art, also its the more "fair" approach.
One with regular air slash and power vision for more conservative people.
The other two with AAS (because its better) mixing dash vision and power vision. IMO the better choices.

-BSC its not useful, the endlag kills it.

-All arts are useful, All of them and its a matter of preference.

Regular arts are just ok, being able to input jump or smash when you need it its the true benefit.
Its uncommon to desacivate speed or buster, shield only if you are sent offstage.
Regular shield its not very good, doesnt decrease the knockback enough.

Decesive arts makes every art truly shine. The 5 extra 5 secs and 5 secs of cooldown allows you to really commit to an art. You can become a Dspeed or Dbuster specialist, and when the % dictates Dshield.
Decesive shield is amazing, allows to survive till 180% average.
Decesive speed and buster are godsend.
Decesive smash its good but risky, once you get the stock its time to stall until the art desactivates.
Decesive jump is good, just not fond of it.

Hyper arts makes Hspeed and Hshield not that good.
Hsmash and Hbuster truly shines.(still risky)
H jump its ok for recovery and thats it.

AAS is better than regular AS, safer and stronger. Only drawback is that you cant try to meteor below unless you have jump art active.

Hoping the meta allows customs, shulk really benefits from them makng him even more appealing and deep.

This looks OK, but you should replace 2113 with 2112 as 2123 is strictly superior to 2113 and 2112 has a valid explanation words it.

2112:
Seems useless compared to 2122 at first, but it has a distinct role. Some projectiles really stink for advancing air slash. For example, all of Lucario's Neutral B's. Another would be Samus's fully charged shot. Sometimes, Air Slash is just needed. So, even though 2122 is generally better, 2112 needs use in some cases.
As for why dash vision is used instead of power vision, the very reason we are using regular air slash is these annoying projectiles. Projectile -> dash vision.

And for the 10th set, we should have that anti-meta/doubles 2322. 2322 was always my set of choice for doubles and we should give doubles a little credit here. And 2322 is also arguably the most frustrating possible Shulk for anyone to have to deal with. DShield + BSC's Super armour + AAS to recover in DShield + DV for a little extra recovery (not seeing that much use though) and one counter = stage control. No matter what. You have stage control and your opponent is possibly offstage ready to be edgeguarded. Annoying, isn't it. 2323 would also work however and it's really up to which vision we would find more annoying. Possible death at 30% or above, or instant stage control? I'm OK with either. Just saying, to exaggerate the frustration that your opponent must deal with, a good strategy would possibly be to be in DShield the whole match. Make your opponent crumble. Even those who are better than you suddenly become worse than you. We shouldn't just look at gameplay. We must think about the mental aspect of the game as well.

 

[Masonomace]

I secondary Lucario and I can place my Spheres in unfavorable places for Shulk. Me and Eric kinda stumbled on that in the MatchUp but I think AAS works better against any Aura Sphere variant than AS since the second slash snaps the ledge quicker and deals more damage when it comes down to challenging a Sphere variant.

EDIT#2: Actually, for Aura Sphere and Piercing Aura Sphere, MAS could perform better than AAS because the move's first and second hit deal more damage when we're recovering accordingly. Something to think about I suppose.

EDIT: I too approve of the 2322 set's inclusion. DShield's knockback reduction compliments the frame 1 super armor, plus we can reverse the direction during the move's startup in order to hit them or land elsewhere.

 

[Scieric]

Don't do MAS. Just use Reg. AS for those purposes. MAS has a greater advantage on-hit, but you'll never hit it.