Levelling Up Shulk's Arts - Custom Moveset Discussion 3.0

[Maple42]

I have mentioned why Back Slash Charge is superior; it's the two posts before the one in reference; as for Dash Vision, it can punish any type of projectile, not just up close ones.
I never said I'm using it to attack, nor as an approach; Back Slash as a whole is quite possibly one of the worst moves in the game, seeing as its starting and ending lag is horrendous, especially with its lackluster damage output, and as such, is almost worthless as an offensive option. As mentioned twice before, BSC has a use as an option out of aerial off-stage combos; Back Slash almost has no worth, and as such, I'd rather it have an extremely niche purpose instead of no purpose at all.
On the other hand, you have not provided reasons to use Back Slash or Back Slash Leap.

 

[Scieric]

I have mentioned why Back Slash Charge is superior; it's the two posts before the one in reference; as for Dash Vision, it can punish any type of projectile, not just up close ones.
I never said I'm using it to attack, nor as an approach; Back Slash as a whole is quite possibly one of the worst moves in the game, seeing as its starting and ending lag is horrendous, especially with its lackluster damage output, and as such, is almost worthless as an offensive option. As mentioned twice before, BSC has a use as an option out of aerial off-stage combos; Back Slash almost has no worth, and as such, I'd rather it have an extremely niche purpose instead of no purpose at all.
On the other hand, you have not provided reasons to use Back Slash or Back Slash Leap.

Can someone PLEASE explain to this moron the uses of Back Slash. Because I am not being listened to at all.

 

[erico9001]

2123 is my set i can defend it till the end of time. It always bugged it being labeled as an option set rather than a preferential set. But as long as its there im good.

actually now i cant turn back to default monado or default airslash i need them both together so much. Decisive because im always in speed and AAS its amazing with decesive shield and as an on stage attack.

So you're indifferent?

I respect your opinion. OPINION! All preferences for custom moves are OPINION. Why does it bug you? I personally play very aggresively so this set would not work for me because it looks pretty defensive on paper. It requires putting much more time into thought before approaching. I don't wan't to give my opponent the chance to think too much. I want to catch them off guard by while they think we are just going to feel each other out, I am already in your face pressuring you before you can make too elaborate a game plan. With this set, you have to commit to a certain Art beforehand. If I find that a certain Art isn't working out because I chose wrong, I'm totally fine because I can just change it. That way I've seen how my opponent reacts to pressure and since I am scaring them, but I'm totally fine, so I'm thinking about ways to pressure them with a different Art while they are still trying to work on this one. The Arts' whole point is to adapt to what your opponent is doing and then, completly change your whole plan right in front of them whilst they are still adapted to fighting the one you were just in? Guess which MArt custom DEOSN'T allow you to change your plan whenever. It gives your opponent WAY too much time to think for my preferences, so you must play cautiously while you may have made a huge mistake in your Art choice or just given yor opponent time to plan out for all of them. However, if you do find this Art your preference, then I respect your choice of UpB. Being stuck in Sheild while recivering makes it a near-impossible task against those who had the TIME TO PLAN AN EDGEGUARD unless you have that one. As for your choice of Back Slash, I respect it. Like Leap, this Back Slash variant actually has a little use! Charge should be reserved strictly for doubles. Don't even bother putting it in a niche set. Waste of time.

Shulk mains typically play defensively, but I play aggressively as well. Decisive arts do not need to be used defensively. The offensive aspects are boosted along with the defensive aspects.

Shulk's Back Slash Leap seems to serve little purpose; increasing its offensive potential is irrelevant, considering Back Slash (or any of its variants) aren't exactly the best option to attack with. However, with Back Slash Charge, it can be used as a niche option due to its Super Armor to get out of a combo; while it only serves that purpose, it seems to be more than what Back Slash Leap offers.

Back Slash does have some use.
-Hit people who are using Bair
-Hit people who are recovering with a jump after a B-throw
-Maybe after an U-throw
-Throw people off who are using a projectile

Back slash charge has uses too. However, all back slash moves don't provide enough use to decide a set.

I think we would benefit from having a general sense of what archetypes should be countered by which custom set; as such, here are the theoretical optimized sets for each character:

2322 (Anti-Zoning)

Spoiler

Toon Link, Samus, Rosalina and Luma, Bowser Jr., Mr. Game and Watch, Pit, Dark Pit, Villager, Pac-Man, Mega Man, Duck Hunt, ROB, Robin, Link, Zelda

To me, these are the most obvious; Decisive allows Shulk to go mobility Arts the entire time, which zoners don't take very well to. Advancing Air Slash is usually paired with Decisive to allow Speed to recover horizontally to the stage, a task it is lackluster at. Finally, Dashing Vision takes a proactive role in these match-ups, being able to punish stray projectiles.

3313 (Characters that can't outrun a Hyper Monado Art and don't have a Dash Vision-counterable projectile)

Spoiler

Bowser, Little Mac, Wario, Donkey Kong, Ganondorf, Meta Knight, Kirby, Falco, Charizard, Lucario, Jigglypuff, Lucina, Olimar, Ike, Marth

The oddball group; they aren't fast enough to stall out the shortened timer of Hyper Arts, and as such, theoretically our best match-ups. Power Vision, other than countering projectiles, is a flat upgrade to Vision.
Lucario is in this list despite having Aura Sphere because Power Vision is worth the risk against it; when it loses the stock lead, it usually loses the match as well.

3312 (Characters that can't outrun a Hyper Monado Art and have a projectile)

Spoiler

Mario, Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, Diddy Kong, Dr. Mario, Wii Fit Trainer, Ness, Mewtwo

Same reasoning as the 3313 group, except they have projectiles suspectible to being Dash Vision'd.

1311 (Characters that aren't suspectible by Power Vision and can outrun Hyper Monado Arts)

Spoiler

Zero Suit Samus, Palutena, Pikachu, Greninja, Fox, Captain Falcon, Sonic

Unfortunately, these characters are just too fast to catch with Hyper Arts consistently. Furthermore, their main ways of attack are aerial, and as such, are not reliably hit with Power Vision.

1313 (Special cases)

Spoiler

Sheik

Despite being classified the same way as the 1311 group, Sheik holds a special niche; she can't seal the KO easily. As such, like Lucario, it'd be a boon to be able to close the stock early if at all possible.

Unsure of the match-up
Mirror, Kind Dedede

As always, feel free to correct me. c:

What are you basing this all on? I just don't see the logic.

Can someone PLEASE explain to this moron the uses of Back Slash. Because I am not being listened to at all.

Please try to be constructive...

 

[Maple42]

I assumed the Hyper Arts would be best against characters that could not outrun and stall them out; therefore, characters who cannot do so were assigned that custom. For the Vision customs, Dash would theoretically be better for characters with projectiles, with Power Vision being better than the default, except for characters who are aerial combo based, as Power Vision becomes unreliable against aerial foes.

 

[Scieric]

Shulk mains typically play defensively, but I play aggressively as well. Decisive arts do not need to be used defensively. The offensive aspects are boosted along with the defensive aspects.

Were you paying attention to anything I said? I said it gives opponents too much time to think as well as requiring you do a lot more thinking than necessary. It had nothing to do with the actual bonuses the Arts give you.

Please try to be constructive...

I am. I am just being blatantly ignored by this person who cannot listen.

I assumed the Hyper Arts would be best against characters that could not outrun and stall them out; therefore, characters who cannot do so were assigned that custom. For the Vision customs, Dash would theoretically be better for characters with projectiles, with Power Vision being better than the default, except for characters who are aerial combo based, as Power Vision becomes unreliable against aerial foes.

You STILL provide no reason for BSC. Give me a reason to use it.

 

[Maple42]

Back Slash does have some use.
-Hit people who are using Bair
-Hit people who are recovering with a jump after a B-throw
-Maybe after an U-throw
-Throw people off who are using a projectile

Back slash charge has uses too. However, all back slash moves don't provide enough use to decide a set..

This is what I was asking for; this is what being constructive is. I'm okay with being wrong, but please tell me why you think I'm wrong rather than simply stating that I am. I have stated multiple times the reasons I think BSC to be superior; however, like erico said, it simply isn't important enough to post more on the subject. Honestly, you can just say ##x# for those sets, I just slapped BSC on there because that's what I believe to be correct; feel free to put Back Slash there, because it literally just isn't as important as the others to discuss. If you don't mind, please, just drop it.

Also, we're not ignoring you; we have been actively replying to your posts. You're treating us rather poorly; we'd just want you to expand on your points, but you're repeating that we're not giving you points when we are.

 

[erico9001]

I assumed the Hyper Arts would be best against characters that could not outrun and stall them out; therefore, characters who cannot do so were assigned that custom. For the Vision customs, Dash would theoretically be better for characters with projectiles, with Power Vision being better than the default, except for characters who are aerial combo based, as Power Vision becomes unreliable against aerial foes.

Hmm, your rankings on the previous page seem to have an unstated premise that hyper arts are better, or more efficient, than regular monado arts. Then, you build from that with whether opponents can stall it out. That's what I don't really understand. Why is hyper better in all of those situations than both decisive and regular?

I agree with your use of dash vision in the cases against opponents who have projectiles. Even projectiles that aren't useful for zoning we could use dash vision against.

What I'm curious about is the situation where you say power vision is not useful because the opponents use aerial attacks. I just don't get how power vision would whiff more than vision against opponents who use aerial attacks. They both hit, don't they?

 

[Goesasu]

@ erico9001 As long as 2123 its there i dont think it truly matters. But im with you and i also think in should be labeled under "preferential" rather than "optional".

In other things, AAS i so so good as a ground attack. Default Air Slash looks so lackluster compared to it.

 

[Maple42]

Yeah, I did assume that Hyper was better than Default; of course, we're still discovering all the things we can do with both, so I suppose Default could be better than Hyper. My reasoning for Hyper to be better is because its effects are more prominent, and, in theory, are more efficient at their jobs than Default; however, that could be flawed, since Default has a longer time to actually do that job.
To determine whether Hyper or Default are appropriate, we'd want to look at the trend of damage output per Art duration; for now, we only have gut feelings as to which one can do its job better.

As for Decisive, I find having access to Buster, Shield, and Smash more of a boon than being able to stay in Speed / Jump for the entire match, unless the opponent can't handle that (zoners). Being stuck in an Art that was appropriate before and not anymore makes him less effecient.

I was under the notion that Vision and its variants whiffs if the opponent passes you fast enough in the air; since Power Vision is slower to perform, I'd think it'd have a greater chance to whiff if the opponent has more time to get to its blind spot.

 

[Scieric]

@ erico9001 As long as 2123 its there i dont think it truly matters. But im with you and i also think in should be labeled under "preferential" rather than "optional".

In other things, AAS i so so good as a ground attack. Default Air Slash looks so lackluster compared to it.

Please be glad that it's there at all. At least your favourite set made it.

 

[Berserker.]

I might go back to tinkering with customs. I haven't messed with them in months. I'll probably try looking into hyper arts and power vision. Advancing air slash too. I guess.

 

[erico9001]

Please be glad that it's there at all. At least your favourite set made it.

Please try to be constructive...

Anyways, I'm still looking for input on this:

The exceptions to the rules of each group of sets is what are the key points for possibility of change. Firstly, does 3213 qualify for a (preferential) customs set? It is very similar to the critical set, 3113, with the only change being Back Slash -> Back Slash Leap. From what I understand, the only reason driving this set is that Hyper Buster is able to break the shield of somebody if they are on a platform above you and you hit them in just the right spot with the move. This seems like it would be a very rare occurrence, and has anybody actually been employing this strategy? That might not provide enough utility to justify a spot over something else, such as advancing air slash with decisive arts (which is great for the decisive Shield strategy). Another option for this spot is 2122, which would be great for zone breaking and would give decisive shield another recovery option. That would be organized under the niche sets group, however. 2322 could be tacked onto there as well, for additional recovery/zone breaking. Another option is to have a 1133 set; although, still consider what I said above about Mighty Air Slash. If it actually turns out that 3213 is liked enough, it is also possible for 3213 to replace 3113 in the critical sets.

At the least, 2123 should be switched around with 3213. This provides more consistency. Since 2123 will probably be more common than 3213, it makes more sense for 3213 to be an optional set so there is less importing at tournaments that are not like EVO. Still, even with that as optional, it might be better for another set to take its place in the optional section for events like EVO (any of the ones I mentioned would work).

Again, I don't think I can get Amazing Ampharos to change the set at this time, so there is no rush in discussing this .

3213 seems more like an optional set than preferential, as its niche over the critical 3113 set is highly situational. It could simply swap places with 2123, which is currently an optional set, that seems more likely to be used in a tournament anyways. Or, perhaps 2122, 2322, or 1133 could take its place. Also open to suggestions.

Something else I did not bring up, is perhaps 1133 should replace 1213 in optional sets? Or any other set?

I need thoughts/opinions.

 

[Berserker.]

Edit: Nothing happened in this post >_>

 

[erico9001]

I think for this week, I will try to find something useful about back slash. Yep, I said a week. Because it's garbage. It could be a good tech-chasing option though for all I know!

On another note, Shulk's b-air is great for tech chasing (if this isn't new then ignore this and move on to what you were doing). The range on it is insane enough anyway, from my experience.

D-air also has this weird property of placing opponents beneath Shulk's sword. I've exploited this whenever opponents still try to bop me off while I'm grabbing the ledge. Just ledge drop > rising d-air. If their hurt box is stretching a bit from the edge, they're sure to get meteor smashed by d-air. You don't even have to move forward while using d-air. Just jump upward while using it

Like for example, Ganondorf does an f-tilt and whiffs it. If he whiffs, you drop from the ledge then do a jumping d-air. His foot is still counted as a hurt box so d-air will position Dorf and meteor him downward to his death.

It's really hard to explain or teach in words. I probably need a video or GIF to show it. My bad if this was too hard to understand.

I think you meant to post this in the Metagame Thread, but I welcome it here because this thread doesn't get many replies anymore .

Though, now that I think about it, it makes sense. We have gone through and explored most of the custom moves quite extensively.

The only moves that could use more exploration are the back slash customs (Uses? When are they safe on hit?), maybe mighty air slash (when can we use it as an attacking move?), and possibly hyper arts (hyper arts = new combos/strings, primarily, as well as constructing a clearer overall strategy).

Then we have sets. However, the set list won't be updated until later in the year. That kind of lowers the amount of worth there is in discussing it right now.

Hmm... idea... What if, rather than discussing sets for the sake of constructing a set list for the custom moveset project (tournament operators), we did so for individual Shulk players? We could have a different sort of set list in the original post, which would not focus on deciding what tournament operators should put on their machines, but would display/describe sets – even unconventional ones. Players would come to this thread to learn about sets that suit their playstyle, suit their match-up, and overall improve their Shulk games. Or, Shulk players could come to this thread to describe their own sets, and potentially have the set and description thereof placed into the op. Other players could critique the set.

So, would that be a good system? I need some responses, or that will not be incorporated into the op.

---------------

Also, Mace tested/constructed this:

@ erico9001 Kudos to you for inspiring me to remake / remaster the Horizontal Ranges of Shulk's move-set. This even includes the Custom Specials & all that good stuff.

Maximum Horizontal Range​

Note: All of Shulk's moves are listed from farthest to shortest. I used a custom stage I created to help assist with this, & used the Crate item to better determine the results. Not even Wii Fit Trainer was the greatest example to use the first time for this.

Note: I only measured the range of Shulk's moves by the farthest they could reach aka the Beam aka the Sourspot in most cases (Exceptions like NAir are loved & appreciated, because NAir, you break the B & B "rule"<3. I also did not test move techniques like Jump Canceled Vision).

1. Back Slash Charge sliding hit-box as Shulk with any Art excluding all 3 Speed Arts
2. Back Slash Charge sliding hit-box as Speed Shulk / DSpeed Shulk / HSpeed Shulk
3. Dash Vision counterattack (This basically looks like a disjointed Tipper hit-box, but it's the sourspot)
4. Advancing Air Slash 2nd hit
5. Power Vision counterattack
6. Vision counterattack
7. Back Slash landing Tipper hit
8. Instant Dash Attack as Speed Shulk
9. Instant Dash attack as Vanilla Shulk / Jump Shulk / Buster Shulk / Smash Shulk
10. Instant Dash Attack as Shield Shulk
11. Back Slash Leap landing Tipper hit
12. Forwarded Dash Vision counterattack
13. Air Slash 2nd hit
14. FSmash 2nd hit without angling
15. Full Jab Combo (Rapidly tapping A)
16. FSmash 2nd hit angled downward & upward
17. BAir from behind
18. Forwarded Vision counterattack
19. Forwarded Power Vision counterattack
20. FThrow collateral 3% hit
21. Air Slash grounded 1st hit AND Advancing Air Slash grounded 1st hit
22. DSmash 3rd hit from the front (It's actually the 5th hit of DSmash)
23. DTilt
24. FSmash 1st hit angled upward
25. FAir
26. FSmash 1st hit without angling
27. FTilt
28. FSmash 1st hit angled downward
29. DSmash 2nd hit from the back (it's actually the 4th hit of DSmash)
30. DSmash 1st hit from the back (it's actually the 2nd hit of DSmash)
31. DSmash 1st hit from the front
32. DSmash 2nd hit from the front (it's actually the 3rd hit of DSmash)
33. Mighty Air Slash 2nd hit
34. Jab-1 > Jab-2
35. Ledge Attack from the ledge
36. NAir from the front
37. BThrow collateral 3% hit from behind
    
38. Mighty Air Slash grounded 1st hit
39. Jab-1
40. NAir from behind
41. UTilt
42. USmash Front Ground-Hitting knock-up
43. BAir front-facing hit
44. Standing Grab
45. USmash Back Ground-Hitting knock-up
46. DAir
47. UAir

Heads up. So you guys remember the MHR aka Maximum Horizontal Range test right? So here's a MVR of Shulk's attacks.

Maximum Vertical Range (Finished)​

Note: Instead of a numbers list going from the longest to shortest range, I'll rate a move's MVR by stars. 1★ means the 1st platform, so the more stars a move has beside it, the higher the MVR. I used a stage I created to help test the MVR along with using the Barrel item that I would set on top of a platform to designate as the "sandbag" to hit. Shulk for most of this experiment will be starting from the stage's floor while trying to hit the Barrel above on a platform, but I'll include a bonus MVR showing the moves Shulk can hit below him too.

Note: The Jump Art, Decisive Jump Art, & Hyper Jump Art all increase the vertical height therefore increasing the vertical hit-box range of Air Slash, Advancing Air Slash, & Mighty Air Slash. So don't be surprised to see Hyper Jump Shulk's Mighty Air Slash possessing the greatest MVR.

Note: When a move has the word "Floor" beside it, this indicates that the move can hit characters even crouching lower than 1 star aka the 1st platform. Characters like Mr. G&W, Jigglypuff, Kirby, & Wii Fit Trainer are all characters worthy of crouching lower than the 1st platform.

*Note: I'm restricting the MVR for Shulk's aerials by using Hyper Monado Arts, specifically Hyper Speed & Hyper Shield so that the jump height was reduced enough for an idea of their restricted MVR. I Short Hopped & inputted the aerial immediately after the jump. Otherwise, aerials should be free to have whatever MVR they desire because aerials can be inputted at whichever height you jump.

Jab1 = 1★ – 2★
Jab2 = 1★ – 3★
Jab3 = Floor – 4★
Dash Attack = Floor – 2★
FTilt = Floor – 2★ (Only a small portion of the attack hits the following characters crouching in the 2nd Note)
UTilt = Floor – 9★ (Not every character will be hit on the 9th platform)
DTilt = Floor – 1★
FSmash 1st hit no angling = Floor – 2★ (Although it can whiff vs the Noted crouching characters)
FSmash 1st hit angled down = Floor – 1★
FSmash 1st hit angled up = 1★ – 2★
FSmash 2nd hit no angling = 1★ – 2★
FSmash 2nd hit angled down = Floor – 1★
FSmash 2nd hit angled up = 1★ – 3★ (The 2nd hit's sourspot is why it's ★★★)
USmash 1st hit = Floor – 4★
USmash 2nd hit = Floor – 7★
DSmash (All 5 hits) = Floor – 1★
*SH NAir (Hyper Shield) = Floor – 7★
*SH FAir (Hyper Speed) = Floor – 8★ (The active hit-box of FAir will reach the 8th platform)
*SH BAir (Hyper Speed) = Floor – 4★
*SH UAir 1st hit (Hyper Speed) = 1★ – 6★
*SH UAir 2nd hit (Hyper Shield) = 1★ – 10★
*SH DAir 1st hit from the Floor (Hyper Speed) = Floor – 3★
*SH DAir 2nd hit from the 4th platform (Hyper Speed) = Floor – 4★
Back Slash = Floor – 5★
Back Slash Leap = Floor – 8★ (The overhead swing of BSL reaches the 8th platform)
Back Slash Charge = Floor – 5★ (The active hit-box of BSC from above Shulk reaches the 5th platform)
Air Slash 1st hit = Floor – 10★
Air Slash 1st hit (Jump) = Floor – 12★
Air Slash 1st hit (Decisive Jump) = Floor – 13★
Air Slash 1st hit (Hyper Jump) = Floor – 13★ (It's odd because Hyper Jump Shulk can land on the 14th platform)
Air Slash 2nd hit = 6★ – 13★
Air Slash 2nd hit (Jump) = 9★ – 16★
Air Slash 2nd hit (Decisive Jump) = 10★ – 17★
Air Slash 2nd hit (Hyper Jump) = 12★ – 18★
Advancing Air Slash 1st hit = Floor – 10★
Advancing Air Slash 1st hit (Jump) = Floor – 12★
Advancing Air Slash 1st hit (Decisive Jump) = Floor – 13★
Advancing Air Slash 1st hit (Hyper Jump) = Floor – 13★ (It's odd because Hyper Jump Shulk can land on the 14th platform)
Advancing Air Slash 2nd hit = 2★ – 8★ (You can hit the Barrel on the 1st platform if you delay the 2nd slash)
Advancing Air Slash 2nd hit (Jump) = 4★ – 11★ (You can hit the Barrel on the 3rd platform if you delay the 2nd slash)
Advancing Air Slash 2nd hit (Decisive Jump) = 6★ – 12★ (You can hit the Barrel on the 5th platform if you delay the 2nd slash)
Advancing Air Slash 2nd hit (Hyper Jump) = 8★ – 13★ (You can hit the Barrel on the 7th platform if you delay the 2nd slash)
Mighty Air Slash 1st hit = Floor – 10★ (MAS can hit crouched characters when both are on the Floor, but Shulk cannot hit when he's standing on the 1st platform)
Mighty Air Slash 1st hit (Jump) = Floor – 11★
Mighty Air Slash 1st hit (Decisive Jump) = Floor – 11★ (Yet DJump Art + MAS can land on the 16th platform)
Mighty Air Slash 1st hit (Hyper Jump) = Floor – 12★ (Yet the HJump Art + MAS can land on the 17th platform)
Mighty Air Slash 2nd hit = 9★ – 14★
Mighty Air Slash 2nd hit (Jump) = 12★ – 18★
Mighty Air Slash 2nd hit (Decisive Jump) = 13★ – 19★
Mighty Air Slash 2nd hit (Hyper Jump) = 15★ – 21★ (This is crazy height)
Grounded Vision = Floor – 3★
Grounded Forward Vision = Floor – 3★
Grounded Dash Vision = Floor – 3★
Grounded Forward Dash Vision = Floor – 3★
Grounded Power Vision = Floor – 3★
Grounded Forward Power Vision = Floor – 3★
FThrow = Floor – 3★
BThrow = Floor – 3★
UThrow = Floor – 6★ (Someone else would have to be very close to Shulk to be hit at Floor level & above)
DThrow = Floor – 1★ (Shulk grabbing & DThrowing someone on the 4th platform can hit a Barrel on the Floor)
════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════

EDIT: Bonus Maximum Vertical Range​

The moves listed below are the only moves that Shulk can hit a crouching character with while they're on the Floor & Shulk is on a ★platform. These moves ALSO can hit an opponent hanging on the ledge per-say you want to ledgetrump & hit with any of these moves for when they regrab the ledge:

FSmash 2nd hit angled down -- from 1★
DSmash 5th hit -- from 1★ (Has to be fairly spaced away since it won't hit from up close underneath)
*SH NAir (Hyper Speed) -- from 1★ (You can reach from 2★ if you input the FAir upon landing with or without a Monado Art)
*SH FAir (Hyper Speed) -- from 2★ (You can reach from 3★ if you input the FAir upon landing with or without a Monado Art
*SH BAir (Hyper Speed) -- from 1★ (You can reach from 2★ if you input the BAir upon landing with or without a Monado Art)
*SH DAir 2nd hit (Hyper Speed) -- from 4★
Back Slash Leap -- from 1★ (Oddly enough, neither Back Slash nor Back Slash Charge can hit like Back Slash Leap can)
Air Slash 1st hit -- from 1★
Advancing Air Slash 1st hit -- from 1★
DThrow -- from 1★

Yes, it includes custom moves!!

 

[Scieric]

Discussion on Back Slash customs would definitely be appreciated and needed. Back Slash as a whole is such an underused move, so customs should open the door. At least a little bit. And if Mr. Maple42 is going to reply to this talking about Back Slash Charge, please provide a somewhat in depth analysis about why this should be used over the other 2.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I really think we should start looking into Mighty Air Slash. I mean yeah it's range is just lol, especially OOS, but against characters who have very little range and shield pushback on most of their moves, it'd be very good. We just have to start testing who these characters would be.

 

[Scieric]

When you say "against characters with low range and shield pushback" you seem to for get that everyone is going to be able to stay away from that. It is also very punishable if it misses and MAS is just WAY easier to miss with. At least with regular, you actually have an option that has more range that your shield, which means that you actually have a chance to hit it. Also, with some characters, if it doesn't kill, it's punishable ON HIT! I use to like it, but I now see so much more use in Regular Air Slash.

Oh, and by the way. Fiora is the only character I've voted for. FIORA FOR DLC!

 

[faderpotater]

Hello shulk mains, I am a palutena main but I play my friend who plays shulk a lot and we had something happen the other day I thought you might find interesting.

So we were playing around with customers and he countered my DA with power visions. I was like augh I'm dead, but then when the attack connected my invincibility from dash attack had not faded yet and I came out of it hunky dory. I believe he used the forward counter as I ended up behind him but I figured you might be interested that that happened. Can't confirm if the same thing happens with her bair which also has invicibility frames. Also I believe he has forward countered my DA with normal visions before and this did not happen so it seems to be something about power visions.

 

[Berserker.]

Hello shulk mains, I am a palutena main but I play my friend who plays shulk a lot and we had something happen the other day I thought you might find interesting.

So we were playing around with customers and he countered my DA with power visions. I was like augh I'm dead, but then when the attack connected my invincibility from dash attack had not faded yet and I came out of it hunky dory. I believe he used the forward counter as I ended up behind him but I figured you might be interested that that happened. Can't confirm if the same thing happens with her bair which also has invicibility frames. Also I believe he has forward countered my DA with normal visions before and this did not happen so it seems to be something about power visions.

Invincibility must have saved Palutena from power vision. That's the only explanation I can think of. Forward vision is faster than normal-inputted vision so by the time forward vision happens, Palutena was probably still invincible which means she can avoid the hit completely. If Shulk used the normal-inputted vision (which means not forward), I think power vision will hit Palutena since the start up is slower and by the time the hitbox comes out, Palutena's invincibility would have worn off, leaving her open for the hit.

This is the same case with Zard's f-smash. Forward vision it, you'll completely whiff. If you DON'T forward vision it, you'll hit it.

 

[faderpotater]

Hmm interesting stuff, I'll share it with my friend next time I see him. I wonder if game and watches invincibility lasts long enough on his usmash to have a similar effect. Though I don't know if GnW would use usmash often in instances where shulk could counter.

 

[Berserker.]

About advancing air slash

If you're finishing an off-stage combo with air slash, you're as good as dead. That's a known fact. Doing n-air > f-air > air slash successfully is a guaranteed kill but you will obviously not make it back. But there is a chance that air slash's second hit won't connect because you didn't space it right. By this, I mean that you don't land the first frame of the hitbox of air slash on the opponent. That very hitbox will pop them up for the second hit which is always guaranteed to hit (except against maybe puff and kirby). You can do that OR you can fast fall a bit, get the latter part of air slash to hit the opponent then land the second hit. That works too

However, with advancing air slash, you don't have to care about your spacing because the second slash will send you diagonally downwards. So it's always a sure-hit even if you don't space it right.

 

[Scieric]

About advancing air slash

If you're finishing an off-stage combo with air slash, you're as good as dead. That's a known fact. Doing n-air > f-air > air slash successfully is a guaranteed kill but you will obviously not make it back. But there is a chance that air slash's second hit won't connect because you didn't space it right. By this, I mean that you don't land the first frame of the hitbox of air slash on the opponent. That very hitbox will pop them up for the second hit which is always guaranteed to hit (except against maybe puff and kirby). You can do that OR you can fast fall a bit, get the latter part of air slash to hit the opponent then land the second hit. That works too

However, with advancing air slash, you don't have to care about your spacing because the second slash will send you diagonally downwards. So it's always a sure-hit even if you don't space it right.

Yes, but it isn't as good for vertical recovery. If you actually want to hit the second hit, you have to go down. Against people who are trying to cover your getup options, it won't even hit them. I can't tell you how many times that I have gone a bit above the ledge so I used the second hit of Air Slash to cover myself and make them unable to hit me. If I hit them, my getup is perfectly safe (this actually happens a lot since my opponents don't expect it) or if I hit their shield, most characters will not be able to punish due to shieldstun, shield-dropping animation and lack of a ranged grab coupled with not having a fast and ranged grab as well as aerials not being able to hit you meaning you still have a hill to climb, but you're not screwed. With AAS, the possibility of catching them off guard with the 2nd hit and just being stuck at the ledge. And just so you know, in most circumstances that AS will not connect, neither will AAS because in most of these situations, your opponent ended up behind you. And maybe your opponent ended up too high to hit the second hit of AAS, but AS will hit just fine. While messing around with it, I found that this does happen. So while it does have use for offstage combos, just as much use can be put into regular AS with it having an easier time at the ledge with it.

Hello shulk mains, I am a palutena main but I play my friend who plays shulk a lot and we had something happen the other day I thought you might find interesting.

So we were playing around with customers and he countered my DA with power visions. I was like augh I'm dead, but then when the attack connected my invincibility from dash attack had not faded yet and I came out of it hunky dory. I believe he used the forward counter as I ended up behind him but I figured you might be interested that that happened. Can't confirm if the same thing happens with her bair which also has invicibility frames. Also I believe he has forward countered my DA with normal visions before and this did not happen so it seems to be something about power visions.

A similar thing happens against Ness. Some people like to use UpB on me while they are recovering from above. You can only counter the 2nd half of the attack though. I found this out while messing around on FG, the 1st half of PK Thunder 2 is completely invincible, but counering the 2nd half will allow you to hit him and get an almost guaranteed stock off of it.

 

[Berserker.]

Yes, but it isn't as good for vertical recovery. If you actually want to hit the second hit, you have to go down. Against people who are trying to cover your getup options, it won't even hit them. I can't tell you how many times that I have gone a bit above the ledge so I used the second hit of Air Slash to cover myself and make them unable to hit me. If I hit them, my getup is perfectly safe (this actually happens a lot since my opponents don't expect it) or if I hit their shield, most characters will not be able to punish due to shieldstun, shield-dropping animation and lack of a ranged grab coupled with not having a fast and ranged grab as well as aerials not being able to hit you meaning you still have a hill to climb, but you're not screwed. With AAS, the possibility of catching them off guard with the 2nd hit and just being stuck at the ledge. And just so you know, in most circumstances that AS will not connect, neither will AAS because in most of these situations, your opponent ended up behind you. And maybe your opponent ended up too high to hit the second hit of AAS, but AS will hit just fine. While messing around with it, I found that this does happen. So while it does have use for offstage combos, just as much use can be put into regular AS with it having an easier time at the ledge with it.

Whoa. Interesting input man. I'll take note of this

Also, double posting is a no-no

 

[Scieric]

Sorry about that. I'm a little new on Smashboards, but I may have recieved a notice about this before without knowing exactly what it meant. No johns tho XD. Also, were you being sarcastic with the compliment? Or was it legit? I can't tell.

 

[erico9001]

About advancing air slash

If you're finishing an off-stage combo with air slash, you're as good as dead. That's a known fact. Doing n-air > f-air > air slash successfully is a guaranteed kill but you will obviously not make it back. But there is a chance that air slash's second hit won't connect because you didn't space it right. By this, I mean that you don't land the first frame of the hitbox of air slash on the opponent. That very hitbox will pop them up for the second hit which is always guaranteed to hit (except against maybe puff and kirby). You can do that OR you can fast fall a bit, get the latter part of air slash to hit the opponent then land the second hit. That works too

However, with advancing air slash, you don't have to care about your spacing because the second slash will send you diagonally downwards. So it's always a sure-hit even if you don't space it right.

Advancing Air Slash can actually make it back to the stage too, if you are high enough. What I have found with Advancing Air Slash, is it whiffs more when the opponent is below you. Regular Air Slash is better at scooping. This also makes Advancing Air Slash crumby against opponents who are on the edge, and it works on much less of them. Though, Advancing Air Slash is certainly a lot more accurate with the two hits when both people are the same level. Vanilla AAS works on Monado Shield Shulk (but not decisive/hyper shield) all the way to Jigglypuff. Monado Jump AAS works on Bowser. The move is also good from above, but not too high. When you use it on an opponent who is very high up, they will be hit by the first slash, but won't be in the pathway of the second hit, as the second hit goes diagonally downwards.

Yes, but it isn't as good for vertical recovery. If you actually want to hit the second hit, you have to go down. Against people who are trying to cover your getup options, it won't even hit them. I can't tell you how many times that I have gone a bit above the ledge so I used the second hit of Air Slash to cover myself and make them unable to hit me. If I hit them, my getup is perfectly safe (this actually happens a lot since my opponents don't expect it) or if I hit their shield, most characters will not be able to punish due to shieldstun, shield-dropping animation and lack of a ranged grab coupled with not having a fast and ranged grab as well as aerials not being able to hit you meaning you still have a hill to climb, but you're not screwed. With AAS, the possibility of catching them off guard with the 2nd hit and just being stuck at the ledge. And just so you know, in most circumstances that AS will not connect, neither will AAS because in most of these situations, your opponent ended up behind you. And maybe your opponent ended up too high to hit the second hit of AAS, but AS will hit just fine. While messing around with it, I found that this does happen. So while it does have use for offstage combos, just as much use can be put into regular AS with it having an easier time at the ledge with it.

It sounds to me like you aren't using Advancing Air Slash at the right time. It's understandable to try to recover low with Advancing Air Slash, because that is the way you recover with normal and Mighty Air Slash. However, Advancing Air Slash is different because of that horizontal movement it has. If you are looking to get the maximum distance with Advancing Air Slash, you must use it when your feet are about half the height of Shulk above the ground of the edge. Here's an image I made in Paint to illustrate.

I'm not sure if the distance is exactly half of Shulk's body, though. It could be a little more.

Actually, Advancing Air Slash prevents opponents from DI'ing behind Shulk with the first slash by its more horizontal knockback angle (the same reason it can be used to stage spike).

Another interesting thing with Advancing Air Slash, which I observed from @ Masonomace , is it can be used as a move to get you back on-stage while hurting the opponent after detaching from the edge. It hits opponents are kind of far in-stage, and the lack of difference in air speed makes it safer too. I don't know if that applies to what you are saying here: "just as much use can be put into regular AS with it having an easier time at the ledge with it." I am having a hard time understanding what you wrote there X(.

 

[Scieric]

"just as much use can be put into regular AS with it having an easier time at the ledge with it." I am having a hard time understanding what you wrote there X(.

Sorry. I meant just as much can be put into regular AS with it WHILE having an easier time at the ledge with it. Also, as an addon to what I was saying last time, If, you hit the 1st hit of AS while recovering, you are actually guaranteed the second hit and therefore, a safe getup. With AAS, you may lock on to the ledge instead, which can be a little weird. I mean, hitting someone with the 1st hit which can combo into the second, (obviously) then you just grab the ledge and allow your opponent to limit your options. Also, thx for the graph. I will also add that AAS doesn't half Shulk lateral movement after use. I do see it as a legit move that I just do not prefer. Thanks for the pic tho. That is the derpiest stick Shulk I have ever seen.

"Actually, Advancing Air Slash prevents opponents from DI'ing behind Shulk with the first slash by its more horizontal knockback angle.

Well then, I stand corrected on that point. But what point is the ability to stage spike if it's not supposed to be used under the stage? And with regular AS, your opponent can only really DI behind you if you hit with a certain hitbox. Everything else is hit 2 guaranteed.

 

[erico9001]

Sorry. I meant just as much can be put into regular AS with it WHILE having an easier time at the ledge with it. Also, as an addon to what I was saying last time, If, you hit the 1st hit of AS while recovering, you are actually guaranteed the second hit and therefore, a safe getup. With AAS, you may lock on to the ledge instead, which can be a little weird. I mean, hitting someone with the 1st hit which can combo into the second, (obviously) then you just grab the ledge and allow your opponent to limit your options. Also, thx for the graph. I will also add that AAS doesn't half Shulk lateral movement after use. I do see it as a legit move that I just do not prefer. Thanks for the pic tho. That is the derpiest stick Shulk I have ever seen.

Well then, I stand corrected on that point. But what point is the ability to stage spike if it's not supposed to be used under the stage? And with regular AS, your opponent can only really DI behind you if you hit with a certain hitbox. Everything else is hit 2 guaranteed.

Yeah, that's true. Usually, a recovery being able to grab to the ledge is seen as a good thing, though. It prevents them from edgeguarding you.

You can decide to go below the stage with AAS if you want to. The first slash still has the same height as regular air slash's first slash. Sometimes it is best to recover low, and with AAS you still do have that option. Just make sure you can make it before you commit to it XD. You could also intentionally stage spike with it too, of course.

 

[Berserker.]

Sorry about that. I'm a little new on Smashboards, but I may have recieved a notice about this before without knowing exactly what it meant. No johns tho XD. Also, were you being sarcastic with the compliment? Or was it legit? I can't tell.

I was serious

 

[Scieric]

Yeah, that's true. Usually, a recovery being able to grab to the ledge is seen as a good thing, though. It prevents them from edgeguarding you.

You can decide to go below the stage with AAS if you want to. The first slash still has the same height as regular air slash's first slash. Sometimes it is best to recover low, and with AAS you still do have that option. Just make sure you can make it before you commit to it XD. You could also intentionally stage spike with it too, of course.

I do see great use in AAS. I guess it just comes down to personal preference. I myself am more a standard Air Slash of guy.

I was serious

Ok then thanks

 

[Plain Yogurt]

3213 is my set of choice. I admit I haven't landed the hyper buster shield break before, but even without it I like the combo since BSL's damage is more consistent along the blade iirc so at the very least the shield will always take a beating from Hyper buster.

Regarding BSL as a move: I just like it better. It's faster on both startup and falling speed, so it works better as a surprise option (which is pretty much all Backslash has) when someone gets a little too greedy when chasing you in the air. It also appears to have better utility on platform stages which from my experience are preferred by Shulk. It does lose the ability to punish laggy projectiles from a distance but if you're in speed or jump you should be able to land a fair/landing grab on that anyways. And of course lastly its weird sweetspot does an extra 2% that default backslash doesn't have (which is what lets hyper buster nearly break shield in the first place).

Meanwhile I just don't get BSC:
-Use it from a distance -> get shielded and punished. Heck, a front hit could be punished with its pitiful knockback/hitstun.
-Use it up close -> Whiff and get punished
-Use the armor to get out of combos -> Unless they're in a massive commitment it's gonna get punished thanks to the end lag anyways. A very niche use, but I suppose it could work on occasion.
-Use it to recover -> IF you can reach the stage and IF they've already committed to an offstage edgeguard this would work.
-Miraculously hit them with the back hitbox because you leap a freaking mile how are you spacing this the other versions don't need this much of a read-> cry as you do significantly less damage than either of the other variants, not helped by the fact that BSC has like 8 different hitboxes doing wild variants of damage.

I'm not a fan.

 

[Scieric]

Yay! Someone else likes it!

 

[kenniky]

Honestly, I'm not too big of a fan of either Back Slashes. Back Slash Leap has an extremely unintuitive angle imo and it always catches me off guard. Back Slash Charge's front hit leaves something to be desired and the endlag is HORRENDOUS. I prefer using default Back Slash myself.

That and playing a lot of non-customs has gotten me accustomed (no pun intended) to normal Back Slash's range.

Advancing Air Slash is a move where you NEED to know when to activate the second hit. With Air Slash and Might Air Slash it's not too big of a deal, but Advancing Air Slash's second hit can and will screw up your recovery if you use it badly.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Advancing Air Slash is a move where you NEED to know when to activate the second hit. With Air Slash and Might Air Slash it's not too big of a deal, but Advancing Air Slash's second hit can and will screw up your recovery if you use it badly.

This is actually the main reason I don't use AAS as of right now. I love the move but I need to practice with it a little more so I don't SD with it in a match. When I used to use it I'd always end up recovering high because I didn't want to risk screwing up the second slash and SD'ing, which unfortunately made my recovery really predictable. Honestly I really need to hit the lab for a bit with Shulk in general: I've had a bunch of stuff with him on my mind lately.

 

[Scieric]

I use 1213. But those who have existed and read this already know that. Reg. Air Slash 2 gud.

 

[Goesasu]

AAS is so much better than regular AS, it is a crucial part of shulk ground game because its his second fastest attack (frame 10) right after jab (frame5). You can use it to attack OOS from both sides!! this cover a major weakness of shulk moveset, can follow up after combos, use it to escape from danger, as a kill option etc... Even though regular AS can usually do the job, it doesnt do it as good. Also if you miss to land it you are left very vulnerable, unlike when you miss AAS. If only i had a way to videotape it....one day i will.

AAS has become my bread and butter, as a combo extensor and as a panic button to escape from combos. I cant go back to regular AS, when i do i feel like im losing like 40% of shulks potential.

 

[Scieric]

That's just you. I have my preferences. I will admit that AAS is the only custom I don't use simply because of preference and that if I got used to it, I could use it just as fine.

 

[Berserker.]

Uh. I think we made a LOT of mistakes with the presets

Like you know, ignoring back slash leap and mighty air slash

 

[Scieric]

Mighty Air Slash isn't that good. So I think we have the perfect right/responsibility almost to ignore it.

 

[Scarhi]

Mighty Air Slash has its uses though, at least as a counterpick option if you end up on a low ceiling stage (such as Halberd), where it should be able to kill earlier than regular AS (since it kills vertically).

I really like AAS but I'm sticking to regular AS for now since I use it a lot for edgeguarding while facing away from the ledge (which you can't do safely with AAS if you're not high enough above the ledge)

 

[Masonomace]

No worries, it's not like we eggspected to know which Customs were going to be that great except for Power Vision 'cus that move is just silly.

I was going to type a justifiable post for Mighty Air Slash & Back Slash Charge but eh not enough time put into them. Imo though, BSL is the truth & I find myself using SideB so much more now than I did with Back Slash. And because of that, I'm now using Back Slash more.

I will say that MAS is great for floaties because Jiggly regularly hit by Air Slash iirc in my real matches vs a good Puff main will be launched too high for the 2nd hit to connect, but having a Jump Art active probably solves that. Regardless, MAS would be a good pick vs floaties or against CQC characters without projectiles & range. Oh yeah, & MAS can hit characters hanging on the ledge but I have to finish that little project so I know who's guaranteed to die from being ledge-trumped & Shulk stands right near the ledge ready to finish 'em off the top of the ceiling.