Let's **** that **** - learning how to play vs MK

[Sesshomuronay]

Yes vids would be nice.

 

[castorpollux]

sweet my favorite smasher!
NL, please start playing wolf =D

 

[:034:]

@FD: you did?!

Yeah, pretty sure. Mijn Ganon kon niet op tegen je Snake, though.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Gheb, hosted.filefront.com/rejuker has the losers semis of TNOT. It's not named right, but it's there; Wolf vs Falco. It's pretty close.

 

[teekay]

Anyway does anyone want me to post vids to help out vs MK?

Yes.

10char

 

[NinjaLink]

I have only 1 recent vid of my wolf vs a GW. I'll try to get more vids being i do use him in tourney. I just used him at CH 4.5 in teams and singles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8189Lo2hnDM not much

 

[Grimga]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a13evDB5lCk

this is me vs chopin, I got three stocked but here is all i have

 

[§witch]

The fact is that without cg-->spike falco doesn't have the advantage over wolf and that can be avoided.

You can also see this in Lucien vs sk92 besides the cg-->spike lucien was really taking it hard to sk.

Wolf definitely has the tools to take it to falco, he he can space amazingly. And yet, falco still has alot that can take out wolf even without the chain spike.

D1 is basically top2/3 falco on the EC and ANTI was basically doing him in and still won after getting cg to spiked 2nd stock which was due to him not sticking to his strat.

Yep, Anti played it very well. Yet the thing is; wolf messes up in the slightest and he gets *****, hard.

ITs just ur probably quite wrong about the matchup like most char matchups etc are.
Most of these char matchup rakings are based off theory and what people struggle with against their friends regardless if they dont have alot of skill or not.

Most match-up charts are incorrect, I don't think one is actually close to beign correct; far too much bias.

Not saying you're not good or anything im just speaking in general and 2 top players with their respective characters probably show the matchup alot better such as in this case.

My only real point in that was this one match can't really change the match-up in itself. You made some good points though; I'll be re-thinking this a tad.

 

[Ishiey]

Grimga, don't post videos here unless they're of a good wolf putting up a good fight against a good MK. NinjaLink is an exception, because he's NinjaLink.

If you want critique or something, make a thread for it, and post videos there. Let's keep this thread on topic.


As to edgeguarding, what I meant was that wolf's bair and MK's fair should trade hits if the bair is spaced well, so why not take the 3% and give MK 13? If he airdodges when you try to edgeguard him you can hit him with another aerial when he comes out, I don't see any downsides to edgeguarding MK if you have good spacing. Am I missing something?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You once again missed the invincibility of the Shuttle Loop. You can bair him as much as you want off stage, the shuttle loop will win.

 

[CO18]

OH yeah just to help you dudes out even more. Dannykat posted a Vid of Sk92's/whoever's discovery of how to tech Falco's chaingrab ---> spike. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFgf2EKYB4g

 

[pure_awesome]

You once again missed the invincibility of the Shuttle Loop. You can bair him as much as you want off stage, the shuttle loop will win.

No invincibility frames on aerial Shuttle Loop.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dang forgot that one, you're right

@CO18

wow you're ... awesome o_0

 

[SSBKNIGHT]

Yeah I hate MK too. Use projectiles to stop the tornado like Wolf's blaster.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Wow kool I gotta try that anti falco spike survival thingy.

 

[Grimga]

Grimga, don't post videos here unless they're of a good wolf putting up a good fight against a good MK. NinjaLink is an exception, because he's NinjaLink.

If you want critique or something, make a thread for it, and post videos there. Let's keep this thread on topic.


As to edgeguarding, what I meant was that wolf's bair and MK's fair should trade hits if the bair is spaced well, so why not take the 3% and give MK 13? If he airdodges when you try to edgeguard him you can hit him with another aerial when he comes out, I don't see any downsides to edgeguarding MK if you have good spacing. Am I missing something?

um alright

 

[§witch]

OH yeah just to help you dudes out even more. Dannykat posted a Vid of Sk92's/whoever's discovery of how to tech Falco's chaingrab ---> spike. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFgf2EKYB4g

Aww, **** you, stop giving away our secrets xD

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yea and strat contributing mofos!!!!!

 

[Blad01]

OH yeah just to help you dudes out even more. Dannykat posted a Vid of Sk92's/whoever's discovery of how to tech Falco's chaingrab ---> spike. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFgf2EKYB4g

WHAT THE F**K ! This is a secret ! è_é Can't you keep a secret, you betrayer ??!







Lol joke (of course XD). Actually i'm pretty happy that Falco chaingrab to spike can be avoided :

"Wow, you're so cheap you killed me with a chaingrab to spike..."

"Well... Don't get grabbed"
"You could have teched, you're just not skilled enough, sorry".



[EDIT : Hu... Ok i'm not really responding to that thread ^^" Well, keep your Fair fresh, it's your best kill move here. And shieldgrab the GA. :x]

 

[Turbo Ether]

Wow amazing stuff guys. And people say Brawl has no depth...!

 

[Ishiey]

CO18 for prez. However, it seems like if the falco can predict it, you could get footstooled and die anyways... If you tech it, I'd DI away first so falco can't footstool you and then jump + recover onto stage.

Also, I'm pretty sure falco can spike you out of sideB, but can he spike you out of upB?

 

[ElPadrino]

He can, but he'll have to time it right.

Also you can still recover from a footstool, but he can just edgehog you at the right time.

Your best bet it to tech and jump away from the stage, and Flash to the stage or semi scar.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Can't you just tech -> Shine to stop whatever comes?

 

[Peachkid]

I hate to say it but MK is not broken

wooo late responces ftml (mass power outages suck) but i was using that for hype hehe, guess it failed


as for stages that should be picked against him. i would possibly say green greens, or corneria. im leaning more twards green greens cause of the low ceiling makes fair more reliable for killing. plus the stages boundaries are rather short which makes fsmash reliable too. if sent off i suggest recovering low and as fast as u can. recovering low makes it so he cant just SL right were he is. he would have to drop down and then eather fair or sl.

also his dsmash isnt as useful if all the blocks are stacked up. now i havent tested this, but assuming the natural DI plus the Players DI you should hit the blocks and tech so that u can counter the mk.

i wanna test a few more things about good CPs against Mk before i write more.


Edits:

ok so idk if it has been mentioned yet or what not. but shine can beat out SL. and green greens is in my opinion a good CP for wolf against MK, fair and fsmash are so much more reliable now. i killed mk at like 110 or sumthing. hell i even killed with usmash at 120 XD. the apples when they appear are a godsend. they beat out alot of mks ground moves (Except dash cause anyone can grab items from dash attacks) and are quite fast, perfect for punishing a nado then fsmashing oh and dont worry about scaring on this stage, u wont fall off the other side. u stop right at the edge.

on a side note for the apples, i wanna experiment with DAC Item tosses, i wonder if that could lead into any good options

 

[Sylvan]

If MK shuttle loops, Wolf can reflector, both will be invincible and it can sometimes be preferable to an air dodge or sidestep. I find it useful if in the air and MK is approaching that way. If MK is invincible, it'll pass straight through wolf. If he isn't, then Wolf comes out on top.

Wolf's dash attack cancels the 'nado. Again, not terribly useful, but can sometimes be put to use.

Blaster stops everything.


I haven't played a great deal on MKs. But that's what I know. It might be useful. Might not.

EDIT: not sure if MK is really "invincible" but the two attacks just pass through each other. Wolf is probably using his invincibility fames, and MK is just moving too quick to get hit.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Shines invincibility lasts longer than Shutt Loop's. If they clash Shine will beat it eventually.

However I still think Shield -> o lag fair is a better way to deal with it.

 

[castorpollux]

man, i tried practicing teching falco's chainthrow spike. It's sooo freaking hard. I haven't done it once yet

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Are doing it correctly? You have to SDI towards the stage and then tech it.

 

[castorpollux]

I always time the tech wrong.

Out of curiosity, have u been able to do it consistently? If so, i need some tips. I'm gonna be going to a tourney that features SK92. Lol if i ever play him, I wanna be able to pull this off

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You have to press L/R while he's doing the dair. It might have something to do with the buffer system. Either way, just smash DI towards the stage after he chains you to the ledge. Then press L/R as soon as he spikes you.

 

[napZzz]

Its not too hard, you just need to tech slightly before you hit something in brawl, right? Or am I thinking melee.

This match up is still hard **** since chain grab to spike does so much damage and will put you in awkward places off stage to get ***** coming back if you tech it.

For the mk match up though...I like lazorz! Sorry but I cant contribute anything because I've never tried it...I always use snake on mk for obvious reasons

 

[Ishiey]

Something to help prevent getting edgeguarded in general... This is in theory because I've never tried it (yet), but it sounds amazing. Might've been brought up before.

Bair when you're hit away to recover from hitstun ASAP, then reverse your momentum with the blaster (it should be a reverse blaster). Now your back is facing towards the stage, which means, bair. You should be able to beat away edgeguarders this way, while also living longer because of the momentum reversal. Any thoughts?

 

[megamanexev3]

Play the laser spam and punish game. Try to use your faster moves and mainly only use F-Smashes if you KNOW they will hit. He will punish you with a D-Smash if you miss.

 

[Turbo Ether]

You can start tech chasing MK with Dthrow at 53%.

 

[castorpollux]

What are the best times to punish an MK? And with what moves?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Punishing?

Meta Dsmash with fsmash
Shielded Nado with fsmash (you have to know the direction they land) or dsmash if he lands close to you.
Shuttle Loop with powershield fair

Anything else with Roll Back -> Blaster or shine

 

[-Jumpman-]

If a MK uses a d-smash and you didn't perfect shield it, you won't be able to f-smash that quickly and they'll most likely spot dodge. So use a jab so they won't do that again.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DSMASH

frame breakdown:
1-4 startup
5-6 hitbox out FRONT*
7-9
10-11 hitbox out BACK*
12-34 cooldown

frame summary:
hits on frame 5 front and frame 10 back
IASA frame: 35
Cooldown front: 28
Cooldown back: 23
Shield stun front: 4
Shield stun back: 4
Shield advantage front: -25
Shield drop advantage front: -18
Shield advantage back: -20
Shield drop advantage back: -13

f smash
5
6-14 (9) 1st hit
15-17 (3) 2nd hit
18-22 (5) 3rd hit
23-45 (23)
45 total

*Bolds added by me...

The hitbox of MKs dsmash is only active for 1 frame in front of MK and has a shield stun time of 4 frames. After MK hits his front with the dsmash ... he attacks his back (where he can't hit Wolf) and suffers cooldown lag ... that means he's open from frame 7 until frame 34 ... that would be 27 frames. If you take away the 5 frames of the hitbox + shieldstun, that's still 22 frames MK is open for attacks.

According to Jcav's frame data you can easily land the fsmash, even if you wait for 16 frames (on the 17th Meta will Powershield). However, I've seen some frame rates, where people say that Wolfs fsmash has 10 frames of startup lag (which is possible ... it seems to be a bit slower than the dsmash, which has 6 or 8 frames of startup lag). Even if it takes 10 frames, Wolf will stilll be perfectly able to hit MK out of the dsmash.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Just remember the average human takes .2 seconds to react to somethiing.

 

[ArcPoint]

Also don't forget the 7 frames it takes to lower a shield.