castorpollux
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,502
i guess i'm not reacting fast enough. Whenever I f-smash after a d-smash, Sean spot dodges and i get dsmashed in my face.
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Let's **** that **** - learning how to play vs MK
- Thread starter ~ Gheb ~
- Start date
Dragoomba
Smash Lord
Try buffering a bair. By the time spot dodge is done he'll have a kick in da face.
castorpollux
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,502
buffering a bair after an f-smash? i'm pretty sure there will be 2 much lag. F-smash has sooo much cooldown lag
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Haha, a spot dodge is just 20 frames.
Loki de Thorbald
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2008
- Messages
- 4
Wolf's down tilt is also 4 frames, can be use to counter MK' Dsmash (but not D tilt), also wolf's down tilt is faster for recovering than MK's D smash.
Stay away from the ledge at all coast and especialy under the ledge, never ever try to challenge MK there. Take your time to recover, don't waste your second jump. Keep in mind that you have several recovering abilities, if you use them correctly, you will be safe. Shine will help you a lot. Don't use the same recovery all the time and be sure to get the edge
On the ground, MK is faster than wolf. Use the blast AS MUCH AS YOU CAN. when he gets closer, F air/B air, as fast a possible, those two attacks are the key for putting pressure. Punish with F smash or tilts. Grab is very useful on MK a medium percent because you can hit him a long time. Try not no shield to much because the little ******* grabs fast, use spot dodge for glide attack and shield for D smash/F air and punish immediatly. Save your down smash to kill, and only for that. Don't roll
In the air, use only F air and B air. F air is very useful against MK because, even if it is slower than B air, it has a better range, so it will be easier for you to hit him. even if you don't hit hit often in the air, remember that you are heavier than he is, so giving as much as you take is ok. Also, when you hit, don't let him go: spam B air to hit him several times. The match up agains MK is easier in the air I think, because of your ability of dealing a lot of damages in a few seconds.
I believe MK match up against wolf isn't as bad as DDD or falco. For each attack of MK there is a counter for wolf. Be defensive as much as you can, otherwise put pressure and give him all you've got as soon as you hit him once. The recovery is also very important, because if not done correctly you will get ***** very easy.
Stay away from the ledge at all coast and especialy under the ledge, never ever try to challenge MK there. Take your time to recover, don't waste your second jump. Keep in mind that you have several recovering abilities, if you use them correctly, you will be safe. Shine will help you a lot. Don't use the same recovery all the time and be sure to get the edge
On the ground, MK is faster than wolf. Use the blast AS MUCH AS YOU CAN. when he gets closer, F air/B air, as fast a possible, those two attacks are the key for putting pressure. Punish with F smash or tilts. Grab is very useful on MK a medium percent because you can hit him a long time. Try not no shield to much because the little ******* grabs fast, use spot dodge for glide attack and shield for D smash/F air and punish immediatly. Save your down smash to kill, and only for that. Don't roll
In the air, use only F air and B air. F air is very useful against MK because, even if it is slower than B air, it has a better range, so it will be easier for you to hit him. even if you don't hit hit often in the air, remember that you are heavier than he is, so giving as much as you take is ok. Also, when you hit, don't let him go: spam B air to hit him several times. The match up agains MK is easier in the air I think, because of your ability of dealing a lot of damages in a few seconds.
I believe MK match up against wolf isn't as bad as DDD or falco. For each attack of MK there is a counter for wolf. Be defensive as much as you can, otherwise put pressure and give him all you've got as soon as you hit him once. The recovery is also very important, because if not done correctly you will get ***** very easy.
From my (limited) experience, MKs like to follow up glairs with dsmashs, so they'd hit you out of a spotdodge, or if you lower your shield after shielding glair. With that logic, shielding both and then trying to punish sounds like a better option. Then again, a good MK wouldn't do such things automatically, so maybe spotdodge after shielding glair would be a good idea too.
ArcPoint
Smash Lord
Yeah Glide attack is a pain to punish.
§witch
Smash Lord
Sheild stun, you haven't accounted for that, plus the 7 frames it takes to lower your shield.
ArcPoint
Smash Lord
The hitbox for Fsmash may come out in 5 frames, but it still takes time for the hitbox to get to their hurtbox.
I did. It's 4 frames of Shieldstun + 1 frame of the dsmash hitbox. If you take the 7 frames of shield drop lag into account and the 5 frames start-up ... it's still 22 frames overall ... if it takes 5 frames less, it hit's on the 27th frame and MK can dodge/shield it.
Zen127
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2009
- Messages
- 110
Here are my thoughts on playing this match up gathered from my experience.
The Meta Knight match up is definitely a hard but not impossible game for Wolf if the player is focused and played more intelligently. Spacing your moves and good prediction/mind game skill is definitely needed against just about any average MK player. You can't really afford to make any slight mistake, just like against Falco or DDD, because one over looked or careless action will cost you dearly.
First off, spaced bairs are good to keep out of reach against MK's range. Spaced bair walls may help as well, but I believe MK can shuttle loop the Wolf in the middle of it, so I wouldn't recommend over using them.
Retreating 0 Lag Fair is also super dooper against MK, and I think 0 lag Fair alone can go through MK's Fair. I find myself going from retreating fairs to laser spam as I get out of reach.
Whorenado can be DI'd out of if you DI up and either bair or shine. I'd rather shine though because of the invincibility frames.
Laser spamming is definitely the most important part of Wolf's arsenal against MK. Being that MK doesn't have a projectile to camp back.
Always go from laser camp to the Dsmash KO at over 110% damage when you find the opportunity.
---
Now for MK's Dsmash. You guys were arguing about the lag frames of MK's Dsmash being viable for punish by Wolf's Fsmash. I wouldn't talk any more of this, because I've only been able to punish MK's Dsmash with Fsmash when I've perfect shielded it or predicted it perfectly. I would either jab or grab if dsmash doesn't push you that far, as the MK will most likely spot dodge, or roll the opposite direction and continue lasering. It's best not to take a risk with Fsmash punishing MK's dsmash.
The Meta Knight match up is definitely a hard but not impossible game for Wolf if the player is focused and played more intelligently. Spacing your moves and good prediction/mind game skill is definitely needed against just about any average MK player. You can't really afford to make any slight mistake, just like against Falco or DDD, because one over looked or careless action will cost you dearly.
First off, spaced bairs are good to keep out of reach against MK's range. Spaced bair walls may help as well, but I believe MK can shuttle loop the Wolf in the middle of it, so I wouldn't recommend over using them.
Retreating 0 Lag Fair is also super dooper against MK, and I think 0 lag Fair alone can go through MK's Fair. I find myself going from retreating fairs to laser spam as I get out of reach.
Whorenado can be DI'd out of if you DI up and either bair or shine. I'd rather shine though because of the invincibility frames.
Laser spamming is definitely the most important part of Wolf's arsenal against MK. Being that MK doesn't have a projectile to camp back.
Always go from laser camp to the Dsmash KO at over 110% damage when you find the opportunity.
---
Now for MK's Dsmash. You guys were arguing about the lag frames of MK's Dsmash being viable for punish by Wolf's Fsmash. I wouldn't talk any more of this, because I've only been able to punish MK's Dsmash with Fsmash when I've perfect shielded it or predicted it perfectly. I would either jab or grab if dsmash doesn't push you that far, as the MK will most likely spot dodge, or roll the opposite direction and continue lasering. It's best not to take a risk with Fsmash punishing MK's dsmash.
Captain Sa10
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2007
- Messages
- 390
I would never punish MK's Dsmash with an fsmash because it is SLOWER, and your more likely to be punished for it. In my opinion, it's better to spot dodge his Dsmash and then punish with your own.
1. You can successfully get off the dsmash around the ending parts of meta's dsmash (back hit).
2. If he see's it coming and spot dodges back, you still have enough time to spot dodge, or roll if he comes back with another one.
To me, this is the only possible punish except for a jab since trying to grab MK, unless your right in his face and even then I think he can come out with another when your going into grab animation, is pointless because of the speed of his dsmash. Same goes for a spotdodge>reflector since that automatically counts as a shine effect + dodge which you have a less likely chance of being punished for it.
1. You can successfully get off the dsmash around the ending parts of meta's dsmash (back hit).
2. If he see's it coming and spot dodges back, you still have enough time to spot dodge, or roll if he comes back with another one.
To me, this is the only possible punish except for a jab since trying to grab MK, unless your right in his face and even then I think he can come out with another when your going into grab animation, is pointless because of the speed of his dsmash. Same goes for a spotdodge>reflector since that automatically counts as a shine effect + dodge which you have a less likely chance of being punished for it.