Lets talk about Snake

[Rapid_Assassin]

Part of my problem against Snakes is simply lack of experience. The only Snakes I come across are in tournament, and I don't get to practice at home against them as often as I do against the characters my friends play. Granted, there are plenty of them in tournament (I live in New england, where about 7/10 of the top placing players are Snake mains), so the problem will probably fix itself eventually, like similar problems did when I played Melee.

 

[Kashakunaki]

Well, Gazelle, perhaps you could see if Olimar can Cypher Grab. That would lead to low percent **** kills against Snake.

 

[DanGR]

Would anyone mind summing up the whole matchup? I can place bits and pieces of it into the weekly matchup thread if you like, b/c I don't really want to dedicate a week to snake if we've already got a thread for him eh? There's a lot of different opinions that suggest different attitudes towards the matchup, and I'd rather not make any assumptions from reading all the info y'all put into this thread.

If you decide to help out and sum it up:
-Id' like to know his scary moves, his killing moves, and his recovery and how to counter.
-his overall difficulty ( I think it's even(5/5) but some of y'all seem to suggest 2/8 in favor of snake heavily)
-snake's general behavior midgame v olimar
-how to win? (basic strategy that works well v snake)

~thanks~

 

[nevershootme]

a small summary about the snake vs olimar matchup.

-Don't be a fool by standing in front of a c4 that was planted.

-If you latched alot of pikmin on snake, he could charge in with dash attack (or mortar slide) or up-tilt to wipe them all out.

-Always memorize his distance of his f-tilt, your side smash is worthless against it up close, so keep your distance carefully

-If snake is firing a nikita at you and you're at a close distance, act fast to grab him.

-chuck a pikmin at a mine or have it walk to the mine to clear the way,

-Side step as much as possible to avoid his dash attack.

-smack him with red pikmin if he dares to recover. as always prepare a purple for u-smash and u-throw to finish him off. or blue for back throw or red too for u-smash

-Don't forget snake's air game is lame at times. super armor or dodge at the right time when needed.

-Don't try to throw the grenade back unless you know he's gonna strip it off of you

EDIT: Don't ever try to up-smash while he's doing his back-air. his lil "sex kick" property pings with it during the early frames of the move and you will get hit at the end

Overall it's an even matchup and it boils down to player skill.

 

[DanGR]

thanks, nevershootme. anyone else got more to add?

 

[KMAY]

I agree with nevershootme, it is pretty evenly matched. I mean the matches could go either way if the players are even in skill. I have been getting in a lot of time with some good snakes lately. If the snake you play likes to throw a grenade on the level before he Up-B's, or even if he just starts his Up-B low or even with the stage PUNISH HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just make sure you get out there before he gets too high, plus it is the coolest kill to get IMO, because no one expects olimar to double jump waaaayy out there and be able to recover, but if you have all 6 pikmin you should beable to DI after the fair and tether to recover without worrying about an edgehog. Up-tilts are mainly what I die on vs snakes, it kills oli at 90%-105% so watchout.

 

[Kashakunaki]

Everything about Snake is scary.

I just have a word of advice for everyone. I have found that a lot of Olimar players use Up Smash... a lot. I'd recommend only using it at low percents, then have it recover from its stale-ness so you can use it as a killing move later on.

Too many times I see an Up Smash not kill because it has been spammed to hell. No bueno.

 

[DarkStraw]

Usually whenever i have problems with snake, im usually being too agressive. I figure olimar can out spam snake, so do just that, and when he approaches punish him. Approaching snake when he's just waiting for you is suicide. Olimars pikmin can clank with grenades (making them fall to the ground) they can set off his downsmash mine, and they can take out his missle.

 

[NC-Echo]

I stand by what I said it is not an even match-up. Snake is the best character in the game right now and I do not believe that any character has an even match-up with snake. I'll explain why I think this later but for now I am heading out.

If you want some proof check the tournament results forum. Snakes are winning all of the major tournaments and I doubt its because the Snake player was more skilled every time.

 

[DanGR]

I think MK is the best character in the game right now, not snake. I'm pretty sure one of the biggest reasons snakes are winning all the tourneys is b/c he's an MK counter. Too many people use Snake to beat MK(the most likely of the cast to make it TO the final 4 in tourneys. He has made it to the final 8 and the final 4 more than any other character in the game.) I'm not saying Snake isn't good, but he has his weaknesses.

 

[Kashakunaki]

Does Snake honestly counter MK?

 

[nevershootme]

Does Snake honestly counter MK?

In the brawl match-up chart thread, it shows that snake counters MK with a check mark. But to me, that's baloney and should be replaced with a ~

 

[eskimo bob]

When a Snake is recovering, don't dAir him because you'll only get hit yourself. Let him come and upB him. It won't cancel his recovery, but will certainly deal some damage. You could also uAir or fAir him, but that's quite dangerous I say because he can quickly let go of his recovery-machine (what is it anyway?) and hit you with one of his overpowered - again - aerials.

so does that mean olimar has no chance of koing a vertically recovering snake? we simply have to wait until he's come up, then deal some blows and then kill him? that seems overcomplicated...

 

[nevershootme]

so does that mean olimar has no chance of koing a vertically recovering snake? we simply have to wait until he's come up, then deal some blows and then kill him? that seems overcomplicated...

if you react slow, then the snake player can just air dodge before your pikmin swings through him. an alternative you might do is just latch a few pikmin at him if you're not sure if you can hit him.

you do have a chance to KO snake in the air, it's all about the timing and reaction.

 

[FancyPlants]

There are alot of good Snake players at the UCSD and UCLA tourneys that i go to! I never had trouble beating snakes before with my Olimar until i found out that he was GOD tier! maybe its a mental thing.. :/

 

[Kashakunaki]

so does that mean olimar has no chance of koing a vertically recovering snake? we simply have to wait until he's come up, then deal some blows and then kill him? that seems overcomplicated...

I disagree more than you can possibly imagine. If he is recovering low you should always try and Dair him. It will hit him, the cypher will hit you and send you up some and you should have your double jump and lots of Pikmin, too. You are almost guarenteed a spike and a recovery. Also, a lot of Snakes will freak out and let go too soon trying to Uair you or air dodge back to the stage, only to plummet to their death. Others will try to C4 recover, but you will usually Dair them before they can get away and C4.

 

[Jarri]

I had an amazing match versus a great Snake earlier. Too bad it was 5 minutes long, so couldn't save the replay.

Anyway, what did I do and what were my mistakes. I basically did what I wrote here earlier and it seemed to work very good. He only C4'd me once during the match and that was because I had just pressed shield a bit too late. He never tried to spike me (fAir), instead he did uSmashes near the edge constantly when I was thrown off the stage. I tethered and the first time I held on too long and was immediately back in the air because of the bomb that fell on me. I tried again and this time I quickly pressed B two times, so I could hit him while getting of the edge. Only mistake I made here was that I got hit by another bomb, and got throw into the air again. Next time I was on the edge, I tried to jump over the bomb quickly (after hanging on the edge of course). It worked, until he decided to uAir and send me back in the air again. Conclusion: I think it's best to roll of the edge, so you get frames, can't get hit by an uAir or a uSmash bomb. Will try it next time I play him, but I have to be quick to defend because he can just start using tilts at me then.

During the matches, he used the DACUS quite a lot. I could tell almost every time when he was going to use it, so I could dodge the attack and grab him while he was uSmashing, followed up by a combo. When he used his tilts on me, I just dodged, let him go "through" me and then did an uSmash or an fSmash. uSmash works best, I think, because it's quicker and he can't defend that while tilting.

I think that's all for now. I also have to say I beat him in all other games we played and then went like "Do I need to use Snake to beat you?". Snake-users are pretty confident they can beat anyone. Mindgame them, say "Oh noes SNAKE" and then pwn them in the face.

 

[scalpel]

Well, Gazelle, perhaps you could see if Olimar can Cypher Grab. That would lead to low percent **** kills against Snake.

Yes, you can grab Snake out of his cypher. When you grab him out of his cypher, don't throw him. Hold onto him and let the cypher float out of the screen. There. He lost his cypher and won't be able to use it until his next stock.

I've been playing a lot of ranked matches against Snake players, lately, on the Allisbrawl ladder. I still don't believe a Snake vs Olimar battle is an even match-up. However, there are lots of things that Olimar can do against Snake that other characters cannot. For example, Snake's forward-tilt attack is very punishable by shielding the full attack and grabbing with any Pikmin except Purple ones. Usually, other characters shield Snake's forward-tilt, but the attack pushes them away too far for them to do anything. Olimar, on the other hand, can reliably grab Snake after shielding his forward-tilt. This is just one example of tricks that Olimar can do against Snake, where other characters can't do.

 

[Dark Nemesis]

How to beat Snake: Camp->Pikmin ****->keep an eye on snake, he might set up a trap (C4)-> repeat until victory.

Keeping your distance WILL annoy him at some point, which will leave an opening for you.
Patience is the key. Beating a good Snake may take longer time than you think.

 

[Excellence]

Sorry, but I think that's a very naive thing to say. I am not trying to offend you, or anyone else. The statistics are there. If you don't believe me, look at them yourself. In every major SSBB tournament so far, Snake users have filled the top five ranks. You may be able to beat many Snake users, but against a truly good Snake user, Olimar does not have the upper hand. It's definitely possible to win, of course, but the Olimar user just has to work much harder. When I say "Good Snake," I'm not defining a good Snake subjectively, as many people here are doing. I define a good Snake as a competitive player who has participated in a major tournament and has achieved a high ranking in that tournament.

I could say the exact same thing. I can tell you that I've won against a lot of Snake users. Does that mean that I've beaten truly good Snake users? It does not. It only tells you that I've played against Snake users many times. It says nothing about the skill level of the Snake user. Play against a Snake user who has competed in a major tournament, and ranked high, and you know that you're playing against a good Snake. Once you've done that, then it's easy to understand that Snake is an extremely difficult opponent; it's not true just for Olimar, but for every character in the game.

Anyways, NC-Echo, can you please elaborate on your concerns against Snake? Out of all of the people who have posted here, so far, I believe you have the most experience against actually good Snake players. Please enlighten us about your specific Snake concerns, and the rest of us in the Olimar forum can continue to discuss and find solutions.

I still disagree with you. When I look at Snakes moveset I see moves that limit his opponent's options. In grenades we have limited attack options, because we don't want them to explode in our face. In mines we find areas we are unable to tred for fear that they will explode on us. With his mortal we are unable to go upward or run straight through them at times. Each of his moves provides a set way for him to limit what we can do against him, and because most characters only accel in one specific aspect such as ground game, aerials, or projectiles, we find ourselves in tough situations and feel sufficated.

Olimar doesn't have that problem, he's pretty good in all sorts of situations. If you throw Pikmin, they can stop his grenades and make them drop where they collide, and those that make it past actually latch on to Snake. Since he has trouble getting them off, the pressure is on for him to do something. In my experiences, they usually want to stop the Pikmin with an Up Tilt and then Mortar Slide, why not grab Snake and combo him? When he comes down, I notice a lot of them go for back air and sometimes down air, our Up Air can get through that.

When a mine is laid on the ground, Snakes try and back you into them or drop them down for defense. These are easily delt with by keeping out of Snakes range, though still in range for a grab. If we can grab Snake, it's pretty easy to make him sweat since there isn't a lot he can do in the air. I've also notice, a lot of Snakes don't realize when they're mine is ready to explode through ellapsed time, maybe we can use this to our advantage? You can even try what I do on Battlefield. When Snake plants a fake mine, I just down grab him and the bounce he recieves smacks him into the mine. There is also the time it takes Snake to say "Now" that we can actually get inside his face and do damage.

If there's anything that I'd say gives me trouble, it's Snake's mortar. It's really tough to get on the ledge sometimes, especially with a good setup. Remember we've got 3 Up-Bs (provided we're not hit), to think about how to get around it, or look for any mistakes we can exploit. When he Mortal Slides, you can always send him back with F-Smash and then hit him with Pikmin spam. We just have to look at his game plan, because one a Snake decides to play a certain way, they usually can't change it too much.

Let's not forget about the gimpable cypher, I love smacking Snake right back down to his doom.

It's definately not as cut-n-dry as I made it seem in my reply, and the way I do things may not work for everyone, but they are just examples of how we can think around things and keep the pressure on Snake. There isn't much we can do against his awesome tilts or fast attacks, but remember that Olimar does really well from a distance, and if played right you can force Snakes to come at you and take damage. Again, this is just my opinion that I've gained based on playing Snakes. Tell me what you think.

 

[JustinKamikaze]

I had beaten every Snake I had played here in Arizona which I thought were pretty good, but up until I played Ajax and DSF I finally realized how hard the match up really is. Even now when I play Forward's Snake there is no room for any mistakes. Even playing a campy grab game it's so hard to get past ftilts which can hit you out of grab. My best bet is just playing as slow and patient as the Snake player. Grenade/C4/Mortors don't really bother me they are pretty avoidable, but getting in and actually trying to attack a shield/spot dodging/counter Snake is the biggest pain. In my opinion the match up is in Snake's favor if played out right. I just feel that you have to put way to much effort in defeating him, but hey it pays off in the end if you can win the match though. Even now it seems that everybody is picking up Snake and I'm pitted against many of them in tournies and it gets pretty dull. I always seem to have a bracket full of MKs and Snake's ;(

 

[Juanda991]

N Echos, who is your second main?

 

[asob4]

snake is an easier match up for olimar. being aggressive is actually what you should do, since only his tilts are fast, you can get him before he does anything else. predicting a ftilt isn't hard and WAC'ing an up tilt is VERY helpful, specially when at 150%. give him no room to breathe and the match is yours. it helps when everyone thinks olimar plays campy haha
oh and pikmin spam as an approach is too good, annoys the hell out of them

 

[jmanxiv]

Well, I also have this, but i have never won against a good snake player, they always luck in with one move that is able to kill my Olimar. also who doesn't spam pikmin? That's a necessity to play with him.

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

Spamming pikmin and whistle cancelling is all you can really do lol. Try to get in grabs also if you can.

Whistle Cancelling? What's that? ​

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Well, I also have this, but i have never won against a good snake player, they always luck in with one move that is able to kill my Olimar.

Was it ftilt? Or utilt when you're over 100%?

 

[Kyas]

Also dairing a Snake can kill Snake easily. If you sweet spot it and hit him instead of the cypher you'll spike him and just take a small hit from the cypher. seriously not that hard but not gonna happen often that snake will be below you.

I just tested this out and Dr. Hyde is quite right. If you dair the cypher itself, snake will die. If you don't hit the cypher and dair snake, nothing happens. Snake must be below you for it to work properly.

 

[Izzhov]

Surprised no one's mentioned these vids yet:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4_iyIBcGpNA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rZS4GWEOB7s

Both are Mr. X vs. Psycho ******. In my opinion, this match-up is in Olimar's favor. You just need to watch the bomb placement, use Pikmin Throw quite a bit, and not succumb to mindgames.

Also, I recommend you watch in high quality.

 

[geekd]

why not spike snake out of his ub? the damage from the cypher is only slight at it usually scores me a kill

 

[OlimarFan]

Was it ftilt? Or utilt when you're over 100%?

Snake's U-Tilt can kill Olimar below 100%

 

[asob4]

Snake's U-Tilt can kill Olimar below 100%

unless you WAC > up smash :DDDDD
they hate it when you survive what they think is an instakill :D