Lets talk about customs

Ulevo

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#81
The reason you need the speed for vanilla Force Palm as it is on start up is because the grab range is short and you can't afford to miss it. AFP is much easier to land than vanilla because of the distance it covers. Again, the reason you use one over the other comes down to how much you value the laser, and the laser is simply better or worse than the command grab range depending on what match up you're in.

Also, I see no reason to use the other variants of Extreme Speed. Throw off your opponents timing? Ask yourself, when was the last time someone ever successfully edgeguarded you as Lucario without you screwing up somehow. The vanilla variant is too fast and has minimal lag as long as you land with it properly.
 
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#82
Noticed that Snaring Aura Sphere's Charge hits happen a lot more frequently... Might be easier to JC USmash depending on the situation...
 
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#83
If any of you saw the Lucario player that played during the Shockwave Tournament, he used Snaring Aura Sphere and put it to very good use. He jumped and planted an Snaring AS there in-order to force Bowser Jr. to have to react to that while getting back on stage (FD)...only to get bopped by Force Palm.

That stuff got Lucario the closest to beating the Palutena and the stage was Lylat Cruise. He still lost but he was very close to winning the second round while the first round was eh. (He didn't take Snaring Aura Sphere then) Palutena is definitely going to be a hard match-up for Lucario though so if Snaring Aura Sphere makes that easier for him that's great!
 

Ulevo

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#84
If any of you saw the Lucario player that played during the Shockwave Tournament, he used Snaring Aura Sphere and put it to very good use. He jumped and planted an Snaring AS there in-order to force Bowser Jr. to have to react to that while getting back on stage (FD)...only to get bopped by Force Palm.

That stuff got Lucario the closest to beating the Palutena and the stage was Lylat Cruise. He still lost but he was very close to winning the second round while the first round was eh. (He didn't take Snaring Aura Sphere then) Palutena is definitely going to be a hard match-up for Lucario though so if Snaring Aura Sphere makes that easier for him that's great!
This is certainly an interesting view. Because what I saw was Lucario struggle against a character that is likely a bad match up (Palutena) and he failed to make significant use of the move because it's legitimately bad. Whenever he used it, he either gave Palutena time to reset back to neutral, failed to hit her with it, or he never got to use it in time. I didn't watch the matches with Bowser Jr., but then again I don't count Bowser Jr. as a good character, so who cares.
 

Ryusuta

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#85
This is certainly an interesting view. Because what I saw was Lucario struggle against a character that is likely a bad match up (Palutena) and he failed to make significant use of the move because it's legitimately bad. Whenever he used it, he either gave Palutena time to reset back to neutral, failed to hit her with it, or he never got to use it in time. I didn't watch the matches with Bowser Jr., but then again I don't count Bowser Jr. as a good character, so who cares.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT4X9mirHTE Is this the video we're talking about? Because if so... yeah... he really didn't make a good case for Snaring at all. In fact, he switched off of it after round 1. Anytime he used it it had about as much impact as a dropped feather.

I tried to find the Bowser Jr. match, but couldn't. I'm not against Snaring, but I haven't seen a particularly compelling case for its usefulness just yet.

Edit: Stupid autoplay...
 
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#86
@ Ryusuta Ryusuta No, I was referring to a match in the Shockwave 9 stream yesterday, where he used it to trap Bowser Jr. and set up some good Force Palm positions.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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#88
Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Lucario:

1/2/3, 1, 1, 1/2 niche: X2XX, X3XX, XX2X

2111, 3111, 1112, 2112, 3112
niche: 1211, 2211, 1311, 1121, 3121

You guys don't seem very enthusiastic about Lucario's custom move options, but the issue remains that we still must have 10 sets for the character. I believe these represent the options most likely to be picked if available and also the moves that you guys seem to generally view as the most worthwhile; if you guys would prefer to have different moves available instead, please let us know.
 
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#89
We aren't enthusiastic about Lucario's custom move options because almost all of his customs are useless and our character does worse in custom format. The only moves we'd actually use are Piercing Aura Sphere and maybe Glancing Counter and Ride The Wind.
 

Rysir

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#90
I have been playing around with piercing aura sphere,standard force palm, standard extreme speed and shocking double team set and it has proved to be pretty fun and effective (especially in teams, VERY team friendly)

Shocking DT has let me get free up smashes/forward smashes/force palm grabs and the window gets bigger as the opponent's damage goes higher. While yes you can't advance with it but it cant be guarded and thus not be wasted.
 

Pentao

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#91
Personally, as a Lucario player who likes using his customs, my favorite custom sets are 3122, 3121, 1121, and 1122.

I really like Ride the Wind simply for the control it gives, and I don't typically feel like I get punished for using it that often. It's basically babby Riolu's training wheels, but I still find it to be a solid option to recover with.

Glancing Counter, while not a great move, is still a move where I can go "well, in match ups where I would never use double team anyway, it can at least see some use." Default Double Team is still useful against projectile users for RDTing and in general, beating out predictable spam. Glancing Counter's hitbox is also surprisingly vertical, and you can do some dumb stuff like ledge dropping, GC, then recover to the ledge to cover yourself, in an almost Pikachu using thunder under the stage kind of way.

I've already said why I like Piercing before, but it's still match up dependent.

But, regarding the previously mentioned list of customs posted by AA, I would be fine with those.
 

Loota

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#92
I hate this video being brought up as an example for Snaring since that was literally one of the first times I ever used that move in a matchup I had played, like, one time beforehand without customs.

The lack of appreciation for Snaring is making me feel sick ;-; The endlag is easily manageable with proper zoning, the fully charged one will even cover your front basically for the entirety of it. You should also be usually firing it off from a shorthop if you're afraid of getting hit after, it controls space and limits movement soooooo well.

I have a customs tournament coming up this weekend, I'll try to get some quality matches recorded with Snaring to shake up some opinions here.
 
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Masonomace

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#93
Snaring is. . .decent I guess. The more I play with the custom, the more I realize that maybe it's designed to be close-range zoning & favors combo potential because they get launched up for a F-air string or a F-air > U-air finish. A semi-charged Snaring sphere combined with throwing out a Baby Snaring sphere definitely puts a floor wall on & forces them to approach from the air because rolling towards it really messes up their rolling due to the sphere's properties so they overshoot their roll distance & that's basically a Force Palm opportunity. Advancing Foce Palm is ight with this custom for the roll reads & such.
 
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Ryusuta

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#94
I hate this video being brought up as an example for Snaring since that was literally one of the first times I ever used that move in a matchup I had played, like, one time beforehand without customs.

The lack of appreciation for Snaring is making me feel sick ;-; The endlag is easily manageable with proper zoning, the fully charged one will even cover your front basically for the entirety of it. You should also be usually firing it off from a shorthop if you're afraid of getting hit after, it controls space and limits movement soooooo well.

I have a customs tournament coming up this weekend, I'll try to get some quality matches recorded with Snaring to shake up some opinions here.
I wasn't making an example; I just was looking for the match that the people I was talking to were referencing.

You might also make note of the fact that I said I'm indeed interested in the move and would like to see a really good usage of it. I'm not against Snaring - I just want to see more evidence of it before I start supporting it.
 

Loota

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#95
I wasn't making an example; I just was looking for the match that the people I was talking to were referencing.

You might also make note of the fact that I said I'm indeed interested in the move and would like to see a really good usage of it. I'm not against Snaring - I just want to see more evidence of it before I start supporting it.
Sorry, I didn't mean to direct my displeasure to you but just in general as I've seen that match linked multiple times in other places too (and the GF's where I got destroyed even harder). Luckily it's usually just people talking about Palutena's customs and not my performance whee
 

Pentao

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#96
Little more Snaring Aura Sphere experience here, and one thing I found out about it is that it utterly shuts Olimar/Alph down on the ground. Like... it's kind of crazy how he used to be able to sponge one of our spheres with a Pikmin, laugh, and toss another. With Snaring, the Pikmin he throws (be it from side-B or a smash attack) gets sucked into Snaring Aura Sphere, and canceled out, while the Sphere continues to him. To top it off, if he did get a Pikmin on you, and you run into the Snaring Sphere, it'll hit it off you in most cases, killing the Pikmin.

Because of that, Snaring forces Olimar to jump over it, in pretty much all instances. He can't camp you out if you toss a baby snare, because it eats all his Pikmin, meaning he's in a negative spot. He is literally forced to play around the sphere because it just ruins most of his options on the ground.

Snaring also seems to be like Piercing, where it doesn't clank with projectiles. If you'd want to nullify all the hits of snaring, you'd probably have to do some 3rd Strike esque parrying.


EDIT: Little more Snaring Match-Up stuff.

Little Mac hates Snaring, though he hates most projectiles. Still, Snaring makes his great ground game something he has to play very carefully. A single tap of a somewhat charged or a somewhat (40%+) Aura powered Snare Sphere, and it'll put him in the air. Of course better Little Macs will be fast falling to the stage and will weave around you, but Snaring can give a Little Mac user trouble if you space it right, as it can effectively push him to the edge of a stage as he waits it out.

Rolling through baby snares is an option for Mac players, but rolling through large Snares will just result in him getting pulled back to it and getting, well, snared. This lets you play incredibly campy on the stage. However, while it may seem tempting to gimp Little Mac with it, the Snare's gravity pull can sometimes help him recover, so be wary when you place them. You're better off using it when Snaring is at the point where it can kill, or if you're using it as a method of covering ledge options.

I don't really get why so many people think you're able to just hang on the edge and wait out Snaring Aura Sphere. A fully charged Snare will last long enough to hit someone just as their ledge invincibility wears off.

Against Pikachu, Snaring Aura Sphere helps with one main thing: it screws up Quick Attack... sometimes. I don't really recommend Snaring in this match up. Snaring doesn't cancel thunder jolts, it ignores them, so you can get camped out by thunder jolts, just, Pikachu can't chase his own jolts because he'll probably run into your sphere if he does, but at least his jolts outrange you. Snaring beats Skull Bash hard, but the only times Pikachu will use Skull Bash is for recovery, unless they're also using a custom, in which case, they only use Heavy Skull Bash on a hard read or as a punish. Pikachu is very mobile, and can easily get out of most pressure you try to give. Lucario isn't designed to lock opponents down in a single area, and since Pikachu has a ton of ways to get back on stage safely, Snaring doesn't help much for edge guarding either IMO.

That's not to say Snaring is useless, but in the light of other options, I'd take standard or Piercing against Pikachu.

If an opponent tries to approach you when you have spaced a Snaring Sphere, they're forced to jump in. This leads to Street Fighter-style fireball mind games, where if they jump in, you can anti-air them easily, and if they don't, you can run away and try to space with more snares. Jumping in on Lucario while a snare exists is inherently disadvantageous for most other characters simply because you're probably just going to shield grab them, meaning you can usually SH-fair them before they can throw out a hitbox reliably. And if you do shield grab them, there's a chance they get tossed into the snare anyway.
 
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Twin Rhapsody

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#97
@ Pentao Pentao
Thank you for helping discuss this character's options. It's worrisome that everyone seems to hate everything this character gets as alternate options. I do not main Lucario, but as someone who is highly invested in the future of Customs and the options they can provide, I'm going to just state that I feel like Lucario's customs are pretty solid (could be worse, you could be Puff) and that most of them have useful or redeemable features. The one I don't believe has merit is Extreme Speed Attack. You sacrifice your ability to weave for an attack that does not kill reliably or efficiently. Ride the Wind can at least perform Diddy-level ledge grabs.

Also my intention is not to start any real argument, I just want to see this character get some deeper representation at EVO and beyond. I look forward to seeing what is finally decided on later this month.
 
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#98
It's because you don't main Lucario is the reason why you don't really see us (mostly Kami and I) seeing his customs as alternate options. I believe Lucario's custom moves doesn't help mitigate his weaknesses or drastically change any matchup which other characters do get drastic changes.

Let's take Aura Sphere, the move that pretty much defines Lucario. Both customs shrink the size of the charge, which means less pressure opportunities which can lead into a kill. Snaring removes the punish option off of Aura Sphere and instead it forces a mix up situation rather than a straight punish. Piercing gives up how much the punish hurts. For my playstyle, I won't give up consistency and being able to kill off of Aura Sphere by itself. For me, default is always to best option for Aura Sphere.
 

M@v

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#99
A couple Lucarios in my region like 1312 as a moveset. I know your last couple are niche ones so i figured I'd make that suggestion :)
 

Space thing

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A couple Lucarios in my region like 1312 as a moveset. I know your last couple are niche ones so i figured I'd make that suggestion :)
Am I supposed to be one of those Lucarios? 'Cause I don't like the 3rd custom side B ever. Now I do kinda like 1212 sometimes if that's what you meant?

Like I kinda of like it against Fox (though 1112 is probably better or just as good) because it gives Lucario some actual mobile threat in the match up and Fox is light enough that it can still kill well enough anyway. And Glancing Counter works against his Jab combos so yea.
 

M@v

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Col does. I mean its not a massive priority of his which is why I definitely think it would be somewhere on the niche list. Your a big fan of the other side b
 
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Pentao

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Advancing Force Palm talk today. (X2XX)

This custom is a lot easier to use at lower percents than regular Force Palm, but, as stated many times before, does not kill nearly as soon as his regular Force Palm command grab, and lacks the increasing range of the blast at higher percents. If anything, the knockback of Advancing Force Palm is something you can expect as a KO move around 110% with about 90% of Aura.

First off, a reminder: picking this custom means you're losing out on one of Lucario's best spacing tools at high percents, and while you still have Smash attacks for comeback potential, Force Palm's command grab gives you a powerful alternative to beat shields and add that salt to your opponent's death at like 36%.

Anyway, onto the custom. Adv. Force Palm is actually really easy to use, and not hard to land at all. It has pretty good range, and the start up isn't terrible. It's hard to react to unless your opponent sees you spamming it, and is a great way to break open opponents if they sit in shield all day. Though the blast portion is small, it's still usable in the sense that if you mis-space it, or your opponent spot dodges, the blast can still hit them due to it's delayed hit. The fact that Lucario zooms forward during this move makes it a lot easier to land air-to-ground command grabs as well (however, you need to be low to the ground already, you can't air-to-ground command grab if you use it at the apex of a short hop), meaning you have a move that essentially gives Lucario a solid approach mix up.

Adv. Force Palm doesn't have a lot of follow ups you can do after it from what I can tell. You can try chucking spheres, but regular Aura Sphere and Snaring Aura Sphere are too slow, and Piercing is too small for anything guaranteed, but it's still a set up they'll have to be on guard for.

Adv. Force Palm also gives you horizontal movement mid-air, in a very similar fashion to Greninja's Shadow Sneak due to the end lag and the eventual momentum loss. However, the command grab doesn't work while you're aerial, so don't expect to hit with this. It doesn't sweet spot the ledge, but amusingly, sometimes using it into the ledge will cause you to automatically move upward and onto the stage, but at other times just puts you under the stage, so be careful.

In match ups where you feel like you might not space very often with the blast due to it being unsafe, you may want to try this custom. If you try to use this custom like you would regular FP, it'll be even less safe most of the time, but because it's a more practical way to beat out an opponent's shield, you can rack up damage more easily against a foe like Captain Falcon or Zero Suit Samus. Extremely defensive opponents may be more susceptible to this version of Force Palm, so you might just want to use it if you know how your opponent players, rather than their character.
Also, a bit more info on Snaring Aura Sphere. (2XXX)

Vs. Yoshi: Snaring AS against Yoshi isn't actually a bad option. While many characters can typically run->shield->roll it, Yoshi cannot because of his incredibly slow roll. Because Yoshi tends to recover high anyway, Snaring Spheres can be placed in the air to control areas he's essentially "not allowed to be in" unless he wants to get juggled back up. Yoshi, like Lucario, can also take advantage of his neutral-B as he's following in a B-reverse for momentum shifts, and air-to-ground command grabs (unless he's using the custom neutral-B, Lick). Snaring Spheres can mess with b-reverse attempts, and in general, because Yoshi relies more on his double-jump than his up-B, he's more susceptible to the gravity effect of the snares.

Yoshi tends to rush people down very effectively while also having a great projectile in egg throw, snaring spheres make his rush down more bearable, but trying to contest with egg throw is difficult without high-aura standard spheres, or piercing spheres.

Vs. Sonic: Initially, I expected Snaring Aura Sphere to be a great tool against Sonic, but I was actually pretty underwhelmed by it's performance. While it can definitely make it harder for him to spam spindash charges, Sonic actually has a custom spin dash of his own that makes him leap up and over snares! It's like it can hard counter Snares, but there is a way around that if you pick Halberd). I'd argue Snaring to be good against Vanilla sonic, but if the Sonic player is aware of the potential in their custom spindashes, they can work around Snares.

Snares mess with Sonic's approach options and recovery, but since he's so damn fast, you have to be extra careful spacing them out, as the usual problem with snare is if the opponent runs into it, shields, rolls behind you and punishes you for using a move with extra lag like Snaring. Throwing multiple baby snares forces Sonic on the defensive, or forces him to just run around the stage while you lack a projectile that can catch him.

Vs. Pikachu: First off, if you pick Snaring, be prepared to lose to Thunder Jolts. Snares ignore Jolts, and Jolts ignore Snares. Pikachu can just keep jumping back to avoid the snare, peppering you with jolts. That said, Snares do help since it messes with Pikachu's Quick Attack on stage. Pikachu players unfamiliar with Snares may end up being dragged into it if they haphazardly Quick Attack. Snares also beat out Skull Bash as a recovery move in a more damaging way than other spheres might. Standard Sphere is canceled out by charged Skull Bashes if it's not a high powered one, while Piercing ones are definitely always canceled out. Snares drag Pikachu into them, and canceling one hit usually won't matter.

On Halberd: If you're on the bottom platform of Halberd, Snares essentially force your opponent to stay on the platform above you, or away from you. Snares are a stage control custom in the first place, and Halberd is one of the best stages to keep control of. Mind the low ceiling, though amusingly enough, Snares can also benefit from the low ceiling as well since they do almost purely vertical knockback.

Vs. Reflectors: Probably a very obvious thing, but I'll mention it anyway. This is a horrible custom to bring in against most people with Reflectors. It's a free reflect for them most of the time, and dealing with your own sphere is no fun. Pit/Dark Pit are the only ones whose Reflector might not be too tough to deal with, since they come out a little slowly, but even then it's kind of a gamble I wouldn't risk. If you're fighting Falco and he's rocking Void Reflector, you can safely use this.
And finally, a little bit of talk about Ride the Wind (XX2X).

Ride the Wind is, in a nutshell, "Training Wheels ExtremeSpeed." It's safer on landing, but slower on movement with no hitbox on it. When used too close to the stage, you run into issues landing properly. Because Ride the Wind essentially makes it so Lucario fires aura from his paws the entire duration of the move, it's hard to get him to stop once you reach the stage unless you already exhausted most of his aura! This can cause you to inadvertently fly along the ground of the stage until you fall off the opposite side (but you'll grab the ledge, luckily). However, the main thing about Ride the Wind's "constant aura stream" is the fact that it means you're more likely to get crash landings.

You've surely seen Lucario use an Up-B into something so hard he spun into a ball and bounce off a surface before. This tends to occur when you directly hit a surface you can't land on at your current angle, while Lucario is still exhausting aura. Because of that, you have to be careful when using Ride the Wind along stage lips.

With proper control, it's pretty difficult to punish Ride the Wind landing. Because of your slower movespeed during the move, you should plan a proper flight plan to make sure your opponent can't tell where you're going. Stages with platforms really help with this. Ride the Wind is controlled in a kind of weird way. Tilting the controller alters your angle, you should see turning more as rotating a dial rather than Lucario turning to the direction you tilt in. The direction you first fire yourself off in sets the dial position, and inputs after that will turn the dial. If you hold left, for example, imagine you're just continuously turning a dial counter clock-wise. You'll have to let go after a while, or else Lucario will end up turning so hard, he spirals back to the right! The other versions of ExtremeSpeed may control this way too, actually, hence why I call this custom the Training Wheels version.

There isn't much more depth to this move from what I can tell. No hidden properties, no special tricks, it's literally just a slower version of ExtremeSpeed with greater distance, less landing lag and speed, and no hitbox.
 
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coolhandluc

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I see customs being reserved to custom tournaments for a while. The fact that it takes so long to unlock them is alone enough to delay mass implementation.
 
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I see customs being reserved to custom tournaments for a while. The fact that it takes so long to unlock them is alone enough to delay mass implementation.
Not trying to be rude sir, but you read the description of this, right? The whole point of this project is to mitigate that issue and this method is so far what has caused the current custom tournaments to occur. All you need is a single 3DS that has a custom set for every character (it's much easier to get custom moves on the 3DS, and you can even use the 3DS Action Replay and save time on this as well) and the job is done!
 

Pentao

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More custom talk from me. This time I'll be describing some findings about Piercing Aura Sphere. (3XXX)

Vs. Link and Toon Link
Piercing Aura Sphere eats pretty much all of their projectiles. Either Link player may find themselves absurdly frustrated with dealing with the fact that they can't really zone you out. Because of the speed of Piercing Spheres, you can punish them for even trying to space a Boomerang.

The real test is if it can stop Fire Arrows from having a hitbox after they're on the ground, but otherwise, Links cannot toss bombs at you to stop your spheres when you use Piercing. Piercing helps against both Links because they both rely on bombs to have good recovery. Without good bomb timing, Link AND Toon Link struggle recovering horizontally, which is the type of knockback Piercing specializes in. If you fight a Toon Link player, they can, however, have the short-fused bombs which essentially means they can always blow themselves up to come back, but you'll at least get another 20%+ on them each time you force them to do it.

Piercing definitely eases up the match up in terms of projectiles, but without gimps, Piercing will never kill. Piercing is really good at gimping though, so you'll easily condition your opponent to air dodge off stage and you'll find opponents will almost always want to recover low.

Vs. R.O.B.
The main thing to note here is that Piercing Aura Spheres will sweep a gyro away. Because of their piercing effect, any move that acts as a "physical wall" pretty much won't stop you from out camping ROB. ROB still has lasers, so don't get cocky, and Piercing doesn't stop lasers as far as I can tell. Still, being able to get rid of ROB's stage controlling gyros very easily is a big plus, and something to consider in the match up. It's also less of a liability if it gets reflected at you, since you're never going to die to your own reflected PAS, unless you're throwing them while in the blast zone against a nearby active reflector hitbox. I have reason to believe PAS will also shred bananas in the same vein, but I haven't tested that yet.

In General
Piercing Aura sphere works as you'd imagine in most match ups. It's a solid way to deal with people's projectiles. It a projectile that basically reaches across an entire map's width, it's an incredibly fast moving projectile, and it's essentially any camper's ideal way to annoy someone. People with poor recoveries never want to get hit by it off stage, as it is essentially a death sentence: especially characters like Lucina, Marth, Megaman, the Links, etc.

It doesn't pair well with Long Distance Force Palm, since they both overlap in usage (mainly horizontal knockback move that has good zoning capabilities), but that's my opinion on it. Typically, using it lets you free up your Counter slot for Glancing Counter, as you have a good way to deal with zoning if you use Piercing, meaning one of the main draws to using Double Team as a way to approach an opponent who uses a lot of projectiles is less important in match ups. Likewise, you could use Stunning Double Team if you don't need the utility of RDTing. Using Piercing with either other Force Palm variant seems good to me, as both will give you a solid close-mid range option, and the force palm blast is still nice even when you have piercing, simply because the blast is attached to the potential to command grab someone.
And about Glancing Counter (XXX2).

In General
Glancing Counter is a move you tend to use because you think to yourself: "How often do I land double team in a competitive match when I'm not using it to approach zoners?" Glancing Counter is a move that you can use more often than double team, because it's an evasive attack. That said... it's still not something you want to throw out all the time because as others have stated before, the move still has pretty bad end lag after the punch, making it punishable. Still, it's probably less punishable than a missed Double Team.

The typical use for it is that if you see an opponent running at you and you want to go for a defensive option, but you're unsure if you should shield an incoming attack or attack an incoming grab, Glancing Counter takes the thinking away for you and gives you an option that says "hey I beat both!... sometimes."

Characters like Captain Falcon and Meta Knight sometimes dash straight through your invinc-frame window, miss their grab, but end up crossing you up, leaving you to punch the air. These two characters are also fast enough to recover and punish you for making the right read, but against the wrong character. Meanwhile, other characters, like... well, other Lucario, who attempt to get dash grabs, will eat a punch to the face.

Landing the Glancing Counter isn't an incredibly rewarding hit move of the time. The move deals primarily vertical knockback, but while the knockback is usually decent, it's growth is awful, and will rarely kill an opponent, even at high aura and high enemy %. It'll often get close, but the point is that you won't really rely on this move to KO. It's not a big pay off read. Nonetheless, Glancing Counter activates fast enough that it supposedly lets you escape Fox jab-locks, which you are otherwise helpless against, which is faster than other Double Team variants.

Glancing Counter's punch actually emits a sort of flame to it. The flame rises, and gives you a strangely vertical hitbox from it, allowing you to actually poke through stages with it.

Do note that because of the bad end lag of this move, if your opponent shields it, you are liable to be punished. Opponents with fast smash attacks can even smash you in retaliate of shielding it, so do be careful.

Glancing Counter is a move you pick because you think it has utility, as it adds another possible defensive option that can trump other ones. It is not nearly as rewarding to land as Double Team, or even Stunning Double Team are, but it tends to be far easier to land, with usually less worry about punishment for missing.
 

Space thing

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Glancing Counter seems to be invincible on frame 3 whereas DT is on frame 4. I don't know if it breaks Fox's jab-lock when Fox is frame perfect, but it's certainly good option for it and should work most of the time. Considering I can get out of the lock with Greninja just by pressing A, it's probably a pretty reliable escape.
 
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2211 is easily my favorite set. Snaring Aura Sphere + Advancing Force Palm is such a good kill-confirm it's not even funny, and I love how much zoning even barely charged Snaring Aura Spheres bring and it's just really nice to be able to abuse the hit-stun eventually and get a guaranteed kill with Advancing Force Palm.

Speaking of Advancing Force Palm, AFP is easily my favorite custom move. I feel like it's a much better punishing tool than a lot of Lucario's other moves simply because of how much mobility it brings on the ground, and it provides some nice damage and knock-back at later percentages that it really does make Lucario more scary and less reliable on "landing the hit when you are at high percent" but rather making you able to get multiple hits off and give Lucario a much better neutral overall imo.

3211 isn't allowed at EVO sadly, and it's my fault for not preaching about it; but I really like 2211 regardless and most custom tournaments allow you to transfer your own set so me having access to 3211 if/whenever I need it should be fine. :3
 
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Ulevo

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I do not know why you'd need Snaring to confirm in to AFP when AFP is already really easy to land on its own. Still think Piercing Aura Sphere, Advancing Force Palm, and Glancing Counter are the only real useful customs (all of them match up specific tools).
 

Pentao

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I do not know why you'd need Snaring to confirm in to AFP when AFP is already really easy to land on its own. Still think Piercing Aura Sphere, Advancing Force Palm, and Glancing Counter are the only real useful customs (all of them match up specific tools).
It's more of just the lock down that can occur with Snaring Aura Sphere. Because you can keep an opponent in shield with Snaring, you can pretty much score AFP while they're blocking the shield incredibly easily, due to range of AFP.

I still think Snaring Aura Sphere has it's uses, and it really screws with Olimar. Against foes with a Reflector, it's probably one of the worst things you can do without proper pressure, since using it in the neutral is guaranteed to have you get it reflected (and don't forget, reflected projectiles have an extended lifespan), but I really think Snaring can really mess with people's ability to land if you can throw it at the right angle with the right charge.
 

Ulevo

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I still think it is far too slow. Using it in neutral is basically asking to be punished, and using it when you have the advantageous position means you're opting to use it over other tools that are usually more effective. Like, it's cool, but I don't think it's very useful.
 
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It's more of just the lock down that can occur with Snaring Aura Sphere. Because you can keep an opponent in shield with Snaring, you can pretty much score AFP while they're blocking the shield incredibly easily, due to range of AFP.

I still think Snaring Aura Sphere has it's uses, and it really screws with Olimar. Against foes with a Reflector, it's probably one of the worst things you can do without proper pressure, since using it in the neutral is guaranteed to have you get it reflected (and don't forget, reflected projectiles have an extended lifespan), but I really think Snaring can really mess with people's ability to land if you can throw it at the right angle with the right charge.
Snaring is super duper situational. If it tinks your shield you can just... get out of the way. If it had less cooldown I'd probably use it.

The only custom I really have my eye on though is Glancing Counter due to the frame 3 invincibility frames. So many situations you can work around with that...
 

SmashRacer

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Decided to do some testing in Training Mode with Stunning Double Team. Mario was the training dummy.
I tested it out to see what percentages his Smash Attacks connects.
The speed was set to 1/4. I kept holding the shield button as Mario and I kept flicking the C-Stick as Lucario, to make sure if its a perfect shield. These percentages are after the hit. Tested at 0% and at Max

190% Stunning Double Team Damage: 5%

Forward Smash Hit: 51%
Down Smash Hit: 41%
Up Smash Hit: 29%

0% Stunning Double Team Damage: 1%

Forward Smash: 71%
Down Smash: 62%
Up Smash: 40%
 
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I feel like Snaring Aura Sphere could be really good vs characters who prefer to fight solely on the ground, or in the air.

Toss an Areal aura sphere at puf, and now she either has to maneuver around it, which makes her movement predictable, or she can attempt to approach you on the ground. Either way, we have the advantage. On the flip side, toss a grounded Aura Sphere at Little Mac what is he going to do?

I can see some use for it against captain falcon, it'll force him to slow down and give us the breathing room we need to poke with our fairs and tilts. It's pretty much lucario's way of saying "Screw your momentum! Eat my slow moving ball of death"!

Grounded SAF on BF covers a ton of options, since we have plats to protect us from above.

Good move is good.

:006:
 

Elixar

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Lol now that we have no more Kami...

I personally run 3221 for all match ups except doubles. Piercing's knockback is stupidly high and there's also the fact that at mid-high aura it actually has deceptive hitboxes. If only advancing force palm had the PM force palm aerial thing, would love it to pieces. But even though it has poorer killing power than force palm, its utility is completely different. As it allows you to grab from further away, alternating this with dash grabs, standing grabs and pivot grabs leaves your grab range ambiguous at all times, forcing your opponent to forgo their shield once you reach dashing force palm range. If they shield, they get force palmed, if they try and advance, retreating pivot grab. Mixing all of these with run up shield will also completely mess with their shielding habits. If they start trying to attack instead of shield to beat out grabs, run up shield allows you to power shield the attack and standing grab.

I prefer ride the wind for its ease of recovery, seriously, once you get tricky with RTW at high percentages, you don't need to worry about getting challenged. I've done half loops away from the stage into an S to give myself momentum to ledge snap. Once you pull that off, unless they're like... villager or something, everyone's gonna just accept you're recovering and not risk losing a stock.

I mentioned screwing with shielding habits earlier. Once your opponent gets grabbed at mid percent, forward throw is a godsend. It's mad knockback pushes them off stage at high aura and leads to piercing AS. Even mid charge AS at this point can combo to get the gimps, and if they recover low, run-off dair covers perfectly. It forces them to recover high, which in most cases leaves them prey to up smash with the read, or a reactionary AFP which launches them diagonally if it doesn't kill, so the situation resets. This custom set has quickly caused Lucario to jump to my highest number of 3 stocking characters.

For doubles I run 2221 with my brother's villager to abuse Mahvel Sph3re. I'm very capable of stock tanking with characters like Ike, so lucario is a cake walk. Mahvel Sph3re only works if lucario lives to high percents. Doing so gives you the stronger sphere which you can throw out, have it hit, and then get pocketed. As I learned in winner's finals. Sandwiching an opponent with Snaring is incredibly brutal. Or throwing out an AS to then force them into villager's AS is ridiculous. The two spheres can combo into each other. I don't have footage of the 3 stocks atm (3ds, saving clips for crew trailer anyway), but you can see how we utilise Villager/Lucario on our channel on Wednesday when the doubles footage comes out

In the mean time - from Trifoze https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn-7IZrN6bs
I think the lucario in this is @ Loota Loota so props to him for this if that's the case.

Edit, my bad, the lucario was Forre, villager was Spike
 
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Kami~

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Not going to get in any custom arguments because I know how bad they all are but im a traitor and actually used one to combat cancerous trip seed/explosive upb villager

Used piercing sphere even though it's complete *** but it made him come to me since lucario wins the melee game but cant approach villager hiding behind that tree well.

Piercing punishes his planting/chopping of the tree and lloyds of course and even if pocketed will not kill you since the knockback is garb. Even managed to land an asc to jcu with the small piercing charge hitbox if any of you custom nubs even know what that is

it was on wifi but its still a good example of how i think the mu should be played vs that style of villager even though the player was kinda bad
starts at 24:30-ish http://www.twitch.tv/isabellafj/b/657742612
 
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Lol now that we have no more Kami...

I personally run 3221 for all match ups except doubles. Piercing's knockback is stupidly high and there's also the fact that at mid-high aura it actually has deceptive hitboxes. If only advancing force palm had the PM force palm aerial thing, would love it to pieces. But even though it has poorer killing power than force palm, its utility is completely different. As it allows you to grab from further away, alternating this with dash grabs, standing grabs and pivot grabs leaves your grab range ambiguous at all times, forcing your opponent to forgo their shield once you reach dashing force palm range. If they shield, they get force palmed, if they try and advance, retreating pivot grab. Mixing all of these with run up shield will also completely mess with their shielding habits. If they start trying to attack instead of shield to beat out grabs, run up shield allows you to power shield the attack and standing grab.

I prefer ride the wind for its ease of recovery, seriously, once you get tricky with RTW at high percentages, you don't need to worry about getting challenged. I've done half loops away from the stage into an S to give myself momentum to ledge snap. Once you pull that off, unless they're like... villager or something, everyone's gonna just accept you're recovering and not risk losing a stock.

I mentioned screwing with shielding habits earlier. Once your opponent gets grabbed at mid percent, forward throw is a godsend. It's mad knockback pushes them off stage at high aura and leads to piercing AS. Even mid charge AS at this point can combo to get the gimps, and if they recover low, run-off dair covers perfectly. It forces them to recover high, which in most cases leaves them prey to up smash with the read, or a reactionary AFP which launches them diagonally if it doesn't kill, so the situation resets. This custom set has quickly caused Lucario to jump to my highest number of 3 stocking characters.

For doubles I run 2221 with my brother's villager to abuse Mahvel Sph3re. I'm very capable of stock tanking with characters like Ike, so lucario is a cake walk. Mahvel Sph3re only works if lucario lives to high percents. Doing so gives you the stronger sphere which you can throw out, have it hit, and then get pocketed. As I learned in winner's finals. Sandwiching an opponent with Snaring is incredibly brutal. Or throwing out an AS to then force them into villager's AS is ridiculous. The two spheres can combo into each other. I don't have footage of the 3 stocks atm (3ds, saving clips for crew trailer anyway), but you can see how we utilise Villager/Lucario on our channel on Wednesday when the doubles footage comes out

In the mean time - from Trifoze https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn-7IZrN6bs
I think the lucario in this is @ Loota Loota so props to him for this if that's the case.

Edit, my bad, the lucario was Forre, villager was Spike
With piercing you will lose a lot of AS pressure and getting a Jump Cancel USmash KO will be harder.

Lucario's guaranteed kill setups generally require Aura Sphere to be a reasonable size.
  • Aura Sphere Charge to Jump Canceled USmash
  • Aura Sphere ledge regrab punish
  • Aura Sphere Charge footstool into landing Aura Sphere get up chase
Not to mention all of the pressure with AS Charge ledge pressure.

If you are great at reading air dodges I could see Piercing work, but generally vanilla AS feels like it is safer and gives more pressure.

Ride the Wind feels a bit slow to me and lacks a hitbox, so the opponent could pressure is a bit more. Mastering vanilla Extreme Speed can be hard, but it is worth it.

Just ny two cents.
 

Elixar

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With piercing you will lose a lot of AS pressure and getting a Jump Cancel USmash KO will be harder.

Lucario's guaranteed kill setups generally require Aura Sphere to be a reasonable size.
  • Aura Sphere Charge to Jump Canceled USmash
  • Aura Sphere ledge regrab punish
  • Aura Sphere Charge footstool into landing Aura Sphere get up chase
Not to mention all of the pressure with AS Charge ledge pressure.

If you are great at reading air dodges I could see Piercing work, but generally vanilla AS feels like it is safer and gives more pressure.

Ride the Wind feels a bit slow to me and lacks a hitbox, so the opponent could pressure is a bit more. Mastering vanilla Extreme Speed can be hard, but it is worth it.

Just ny two cents.
I might see if I can show off some of RTW's tricksies to show its versatility, it also helped for me because I was never hyper accurate with standard.
I get what you mean for vanilla AS though.I currently have trouble with the the AS JCUS and ASC footstool. Also, wavebounces, how? I can't do the aggressive one that has AS come first. :/
 
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I might see if I can show off some of RTW's tricksies to show its versatility, it also helped for me because I was never hyper accurate with standard.
I get what you mean for vanilla AS though.I currently have trouble with the the AS JCUS and ASC footstool. Also, wavebounces, how? I can't do the aggressive one that has AS come first. :/
With a wavebounce think of it as a double, yet quick reverse. Flick the control stick forwards and then back. You might want to try it in Training at 1/4 speed to see the window of frames you have to Wavebounce.

If you want we can ditto and I can show you why I feel the way I do about Lucario's customs.

The only custom I'm kinda interested in is Glancing Counter. Dat frame 3 invincibility.
 
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