Lets talk about customs

Space thing

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
148
Location
Pennsylvania
#41
LR FP is bad if you like your command grab.. The range isnt massively increased from default and it comes out much slower. The LR grab sends them at a more horizontal angle if not DI'd which gives the illusion it kills earlier but its actually just the lack of DI. Range barely increased and the command grab comes out much slower so more time to break it and harder to land because they have more time to react. Terrible move
LR FPG actually does have more inherent knockback than default FPG. It's not much though. The grab is quite a bit slower though, like you say. I think it grabs somewhere from like frame 12-18 lol.
 

_Malal

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 13, 2014
Messages
54
#42
lol at having any form of hope for glancing counter, of all moves I think this is probably the worst

the range is awful, kill power awful, and if you do somehow manage to land it your opponent will be ready for it next time. and on miss this move is probably the most punishable. the payout is low and the risk is high where atleast default DT if activated you're completely safe because of the massive invulnerability. Both are high risk moves but there is no payout for glancing and even most dash attacks will go through it and leave you open. Move is only half decent for grabs
Can't refute the kill power/range being nonexistent.

The reward being not that great is a big knock against it but you severely underestimate how much usable a reversal tool that beats grab and pokes at the same time is.

That's like, half the reason why dolphin slash is amazing (the two moves are very similar)

Annecdotally, I have never been punished by anything ridiculous on baited (which is only shield or avoid the hitbox) Glancing Counter in the MUs I would use it in.

Doubleteam on the other hand in those matchups where you're not given free counter setups, if you get baited out (grab attempt or just wait), the punishment you meet is heavy, and the time until you can shield after the active counter frames are over.

On the other hand, the reward for landing that activation is far greater in most circumstances (ussually almost always a kill)

I cannot ignore that double team can be used to aid recovery either. There you gain nothing from glancing counter hitting command grab attempts instead of dodging them, lose height and lose aerial control.

That being said, I feel the reason you take in Glancing Counter becomes using a medium risk:low/medium reward instead of a high risk:high reward move.

I agree with all your points on ride the wind and long distance force Palm, I'm not really a fan of either.

Force Palm doesn't need to be even more telegraphed, especially since it can already put us in a terrible position when reflected. Maybe teams though? Meh.

Ride the Wind blows only because it's slow, if it was a little faster, maybe, but it's in a weird spot where the it's still too fast to curve in a meaningful way but too slow to recover like pre-patch extremespeed.
Distance is not enough to reliably always recover underneath the stage to the other ledge too.
 

CaliburChamp

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Messages
4,453
Location
Fort Lauderdale, FL
3DS FC
1392-6575-2504
#43
Glaring counter isn't as good as default but its better than the stunning custom counter move. Its also a decent choice against character that have super armor, most preferably little Mac.
I personally believe lucario extreme speed attack is better than default up b. Its fast, its controllable, it has less landing lag, its more powerful, its a better combo finisher option, it also scales with aura making it a decent recovery at around 80%. You're missing out if you haven't discovered this moves potential.
Lucarios best top 3 customs to me would be.

B, side b, down b, up b, in that order.
1, 1, 1, 3
2, 3, 1, 3
3, 2, 1, 3

Snaring aura sphere has more synergy with advancing force palm. Piercing AS has more synergy with long distance force palm. Default down b is always better. Extreme speed attack is always better if you are good enough not to get gimped under 80%.
 

Kami~

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 9, 2014
Messages
369
Location
Oklahoma
NNID
Kamicario
#44
Glaring counter isn't as good as default but its better than the stunning custom counter move. Its also a decent choice against character that have super armor, most preferably little Mac.
I personally believe lucario extreme speed attack is better than default up b. Its fast, its controllable, it has less landing lag, its more powerful, its a better combo finisher option, it also scales with aura making it a decent recovery at around 80%. You're missing out if you haven't discovered this moves potential.
Lucarios best top 3 customs to me would be.

B, side b, down b, up b, in that order.
1, 1, 1, 3
2, 3, 1, 3
3, 2, 1, 3

Snaring aura sphere has more synergy with advancing force palm. Piercing AS has more synergy with long distance force palm. Default down b is always better. Extreme speed attack is always better if you are good enough not to get gimped under 80%.
Lmfao at saying lucarios attack upb is better than his default, every opinion you said after that meant nothing because you honestly think in your head its better. His default is the best upb in the game by miles because it is nearly impossible to be gimped and it keeps him alive for years with proper aim. You would give that up for a brawl distance upb with a gimmicky attack?

If anything it's the worst because of the range and you probably aren't going to kill anyone but a statue with it.

I honestly can't believe i logged in to see this but i see you're not a lucario main and you should probably keep it that way
 

CaliburChamp

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Messages
4,453
Location
Fort Lauderdale, FL
3DS FC
1392-6575-2504
#45
Lmfao at saying lucarios attack upb is better than his default, every opinion you said after that meant nothing because you honestly think in your head its better. His default is the best upb in the game by miles because it is nearly impossible to be gimped and it keeps him alive for years with proper aim. You would give that up for a brawl distance upb with a gimmicky attack?

If anything it's the worst because of the range and you probably aren't going to kill anyone but a statue with it.

I honestly can't believe i logged in to see this but i see you're not a lucario main and you should probably keep it that way
I wouldn't expect you to understand with that scrub mentality of yours of not using or ignoring options your character may have just cause you written custom moves off. Adapt, learn, and be the better smasher. Adaptability is important to a lucario main, its his mega evolutions ability afterall, lol. And while all the other lucario mains are mega evolving (not literally) by adapting and learning, you are not because you limit yourself to the familiar.
As for reasons in arguing against lucario up b extreme speed attack recovery...
You can still wall cling with it, and having a hitbox on a recovery attack is valuable, which his default lacks til the end frames of default up b. Why is it valuable? With high enough damage it will out priortize many attacks against your opponent edgeguarding you, plus its fast and is safer to edge hog with continually.
I also don't know why you think its hard to hit with. Its not. You can aim it and it has a large hitbox that moves. You can also combo from it with U air to up b for an off the top kill. And the potential sky rockets even more on platform stages thanks to canceling aerial landing lag with up b. So much for calling me a for glory only scrub, I experimented this on platforms too and it works great. This move also avoided the lag Nerf that the default up b got.
You can disregard this if you want though Kami, this information is mostly for the other lucario mains since its apparent that you're too stubborn to try something new which is fine, its just a game after all. Play the way you want.
 

Kami~

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 9, 2014
Messages
369
Location
Oklahoma
NNID
Kamicario
#46
I wouldn't expect you to understand with that scrub mentality of yours of not using or ignoring options your character may have just cause you written custom moves off. Adapt, learn, and be the better smasher. Adaptability is important to a lucario main, its his mega evolutions ability afterall, lol. And while all the other lucario mains are mega evolving (not literally) by adapting and learning, you are not because you limit yourself to the familiar.
As for reasons in arguing against lucario up b extreme speed attack recovery...
You can still wall cling with it, and having a hitbox on a recovery attack is valuable, which his default lacks til the end frames of default up b. Why is it valuable? With high enough damage it will out priortize many attacks against your opponent edgeguarding you, plus its fast and is safer to edge hog with continually.
I also don't know why you think its hard to hit with. Its not. You can aim it and it has a large hitbox that moves. You can also combo from it with U air to up b for an off the top kill. And the potential sky rockets even more on platform stages thanks to canceling aerial landing lag with up b. So much for calling me a for glory only scrub, I experimented this on platforms too and it works great. This move also avoided the lag Nerf that the default up b got.
You can disregard this if you want though Kami, this information is mostly for the other lucario mains since its apparent that you're too stubborn to try something new which is fine, its just a game after all. Play the way you want.

LOL. Upb aerial cancel lag is out on WiiU. How embarrassing you didn't know about it, but then again you don't know anything about lucario. I can guarantee you even these lucario mains who think some really bad customs are good that they'll disagree with your handicapped upb decision. You just love having bad recoveries as a link main I see. I do see purpose in some customs like snaring but your decision is just throwing away the best recovery in the game by far. I don't need to be the only one to say how awful that custom is, you can ask others.
 

CaliburChamp

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Messages
4,453
Location
Fort Lauderdale, FL
3DS FC
1392-6575-2504
#47
LOL. Upb aerial cancel lag is out on WiiU. How embarrassing you didn't know about it, but then again you don't know anything about lucario. I can guarantee you even these lucario mains who think some really bad customs are good that they'll disagree with your handicapped upb decision. You just love having bad recoveries as a link main I see. I do see purpose in some customs like snaring but your decision is just throwing away the best recovery in the game by far. I don't need to be the only one to say how awful that custom is, you can ask others.
I mostly do my training mode stuff on my 3DS when I'm away from home. It works on the 3ds with the latest 1.04 patch. So it doesn't work on the Wii U? Well that's a first, since everything else is the same. Anyone could make that mistake.
I'm not denying that default up b is bad. Its a better recovery move. The reason I like his custom 3 up b more is because you can do more things with it. I'd take versatility over an OP recovery, and it becomes a good enough recovery at 80% and above anyways. I could probably understand if the recovery was bad all the way through but fortunately it gains good distance at a decent %.

Also, about Links bad recovery... I tried his whirling spin attack that gives him a huge boost in recovery with no hitbox, but guess what? That was a worse recovery option because it would get intercepted by an edgeguard. At least with links default recovery, the hitbox covers him so link won't get intercepted by an edgeguard. Same application with lucarios recovery for the most part.
 

_Malal

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 13, 2014
Messages
54
#48
The lost distance/curving on UpB3 means a lot...

You don't even have a hitbox on startup, it is not absurdly quick like Falco Quick Firebird either.

Kudos to you if you find success in it, but I can't honestly reccomend it.

Didn't know you could still cling out of it though, that's pretty cool.
 
Last edited:

Croi

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 10, 2010
Messages
1,070
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
#49
You aren't really supposed to be pursuing anyone with Extreme Speed anyway. Rather than combo out of uair with an attack-that's-not-supposed-to-be-an-attack, and risk missing and putting yourself in helpless, just wait for them to come down and punish their landing with an AS.

Extreme Speed Attack sacrifices too much for niche gains. I prefer having godlike reach and flexibility over giving more attack power to something that, primarily, is not an attack.
 

CaliburChamp

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Messages
4,453
Location
Fort Lauderdale, FL
3DS FC
1392-6575-2504
#50
The lost distance/curving on UpB3 means a lot...

You don't even have a hitbox on startup, it is not absurdly quick like Falco Quick Firebird either.

Kudos to you if you find success in it, but I can't honestly reccomend it.

Didn't know you could still cling out of it though, that's pretty cool.
Yes, it sucks that you can't curve it but you still have control where you want to go and wall cling with it. It would be broken if you could curve it.
The hitbox does start up right away on his ESA custom as I was able to up b out of shield when the CPU was right next to me.

Here are a few other things that make ESA useful.
The first hit actually spikes them down to the stage if you angle it downwards as long as the 2nd hit doesn't follow through. This could be useful for starting combos if they don't tech.
The first hit never kills. The 2nd hit of ESA is the part that KOs.
You can wall cling after using it still.
It sends them down at an angle when directed that way at only low %. Kind of like a psuedo spike. For some reason it doesn't psuedo spike at higher %.
The hitbox is active throughout the attack.
Its distance and power scales with lucarios high %. It also gains increased priority just like aura sphere and can start beating out projectiles around the same % that aura sphere can. So it can actually be really handy against some projectile spammers. If its a strong projectile like samus charge beam you won't want to challenge it. I'm talking about weaker projectiles like arrows and fireballs.

Its not as bad as everyone thinks it is.
 

CaliburChamp

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Messages
4,453
Location
Fort Lauderdale, FL
3DS FC
1392-6575-2504
#51
You aren't really supposed to be pursuing anyone with Extreme Speed anyway. Rather than combo out of uair with an attack-that's-not-supposed-to-be-an-attack, and risk missing and putting yourself in helpless, just wait for them to come down and punish their landing with an AS.

Extreme Speed Attack sacrifices too much for niche gains. I prefer having godlike reach and flexibility over giving more attack power to something that, primarily, is not an attack.
I wouldn't up air to up b it in that way either unless I was on a platform stage.
And as I mentioned above. ESA is good against projectile spammer to pursue them in that way. It can be used as an anti air. It can be used as a mix up along with your aerials and b reversal cancels. Its also good in team battles. Overall, it has a lot of potential.
 

Masonomace

Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
Joined
Apr 10, 2010
Messages
4,616
Location
Independence, MO
NNID
Masonomace
#52
Whew this heat in here. . .

My slight contribution for the thread is going to be a bit unproductive, & I dislike it but I gotta say it. Personally I don't like any of Lucario's Custom Specials right now.:ohwell: I see potential later on for some, & others may be MU-exclusive, but yeah. For Singles I would generally recommend 1111.

1 = AS is the sweet mix in-between that I still rely on for sniping, edge-guarding to the extent of KO'ing with, & yeah. SAS & PAS have their quirks, but frankly I'm not a fan as of now, but I'm kind of warming up to SAS & how it'll do for me in the future, & PAS does have some horizontal knockback potential.

1 = FP being used in this game just feels good. AFP & L-DFP have their trade-offs & I like them, but I wouldn't exactly use them as of now for competitive viability.

1 = ES feels amazing, & like Kami said earlier, you can cancel the aerial landing lag of ES upon landing if you guide it correctly. The nerf to ES is an illusion & eventually in time it won't mean much other than, "oh bro. . .you could of canceled that landing".:ohwell: I give a nod to Ride the Wind as a MaybeBaby, but ESA doesn't tickle my fancy that much atm.

1 = DT is great, & I would never switch out DT for either GC or SDT. . .Their effects imo just don't make up for the RDT option you can utilize from the regular DT, & that alone I feel is important to Lucario. I've already done the testing of RDT's distances for myself on the ground floor, but not airborne, & I'm very content with DT more-so than the Custom Down-Bs. DT is more of a Crowd Control counter attack because of the slide & range it travels, but I still prefer it for Singles over the Customs. I have GC in mind because it's interesting, but I have little to no care about SDT.

But for my Custom Set suggestions:
2111
3111
 
Last edited:

Steam

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
6,321
Location
Hell, Colorado
#53
RDT is a great approach when used on projectiles.

also remember that even if you cancel upB on the stage Lucario still has the glitch from brawl where if he upBs into the stage his next landing animation can't be canceled. So just jump ->land after that will give you landing lag as if you airdodged. So after upB and canceling on stage remember to immediately dair if you can or land with nair next time you need to.
 

Pentao

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
95
#54
I've been using Piercing Aura Sphere in a few matches, and it's a lot of fun to use. It helps deal with some projectile heavy characters, and really gets Link out of his zone. That said, the loss in power is very noticeable. While you can still get your off-stage gimps with it (and at times, it's actually easier to do with P-Aura Sphere), normal Aura Sphere is one of the main options we've got for KOing anyway.

While Lucario has a lot of kill moves at higher percents, I find that I always end up getting my KOs through Up Air, Force Palm Grab, and most commonly, Aura Sphere, with smash attacks and back-air only happening once in a while if I make a really good read. Losing out on Aura Sphere as a potential kill move sucks, though it does make it easier to rack up the opponent's percent.

As many have stated before, I'd take in for projectile heavy match ups, but only if you're confident that you won't need the strength of a standard or snaring sphere.


Also after playing around with ExtremeSpeed Attack, you can use this custom... if you're playing solo modes against the CPU, where you're allowed to give yourself dumb stats so you don't need to use this as a recovery move. The range on it is okay at higher percents, but you're severely gimping yourself with it. The range from the other two ExtremeSpeeds let you scare opponents trying to recover constantly with full knowledge that you'll make it back no matter what. ESpeed-Attack can do a nice chunk of damage, but only if you get just the right number of hits in. The move has too many conditions to be used under, and it's just not worth it against a competent opponent. If you need to break projectiles, just use Piercing Aura Sphere or Force Palm instead.

I really don't like Adv. FP or LR FP for similar reasons to P-Aura Sphere. You lose a lot of consistent KO power. Advancing doesn't always help you get those grabs in, and it pretty much always just does 8% per grab, doesn't KO that early, and the start up is annoying. Long Range FP also has that annoying start up, and pretty much means you're getting even fewer FP Grabs, and the range boost is nice, but requires you to be at a higher percent anyway. Perhaps I just haven't been using these two customs right, but they just feel so inferior to the standard Force Palm, which allows you to reliably space and punish hard.
 

CaliburChamp

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Messages
4,453
Location
Fort Lauderdale, FL
3DS FC
1392-6575-2504
#55
Due to Lucario having hardly any multi hit or lingering hitboxes in this game I find Extreme speed attack useful. It doubles as an attack and a recovery. Its great for mix ups and is one of the few moves safe on block if you hit them with the beginning part of it so you stay far away from them attacking you during your lag. Have I really convinced no one how great this move is? You guys are making feel like a horrible sales man if I can't sell you on this custom move...
 

Croi

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 10, 2010
Messages
1,070
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
#56
You're trying to sell us a toilet brush. You promised us 100% satisfaction guaranteed or our money back.

We bought the brush, used it, weren't satisfied, and then returned it. It simply didn't clean our toilets as well as our original brushes had.

Now you're trying to sell us used toilet brushes. We weren't satisfied with the results the first time; we won't be satisfied the next two dozen times.
 

Pentao

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
95
#57
The problem with ExtremeSpeed Attack is that for all it's benefits, it doesn't not outweight what we get out of our usual ExtremeSpeed Shenanigans. Hell, it struggles to contend with Ride the Wind.

Lucario's recovery, even in spite of the horrid "time to kiss the floor for a bit" lag, is fantastic, and allows us to go off stage in some of the dumbest aerial chases in the game. ExtremeSpeed Attack takes that away from us, but we really can't afford to lose that. Our very strong recovery is what lets us do things like charge an Aura Sphere while we're under the stage and still falling, or even throw a Snaring sphere onto the stage and still survive as we fall. It's what let's us jump just to ledge level and force palm blast the area where people would normally camp us, it's what let's us really go deep and far off stage to make people panic as they have to decide between getting you off them or making it back to the stage.

I will say one thing, in a non-competitive environment where I can use custom equipment as well, I will take E-speed attack every time since you can just stack speed to recover.
 

HiFlo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
59
Location
DE/PA area
3DS FC
1865-1068-2662
NNID
Hi.Flo
#58
At higher %'s, Stunning Counter--->UpSmash(uncharged) is a great finisher and it looks BA. That is my default down B across the board for him.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,577
Location
Kansas City, MO
#59
Lucario's current sets in the project are:

2111
3111
2211
1311
1121
1112

I feel like this is extremely likely to make most people happy, perhaps even overshoots that goal. If we're going to round out Lucario with 10 sets, what else would warrant inclusion? Fleshing out up special variants seems like a plausible avenue as well as possibly 2112. Does anyone have any strong feelings on this?
 

Rysir

The shorts wearing blue anubis
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
3,539
Location
Maryland
3DS FC
3394-4486-9387
NNID
Rhysir
#63
Im still on the fence about Ride the wind, but toying around with it I have been able to use it to safely travel below a platform.

Starting it up and immediately holding down while you are on a platform will make you arc around and land on the stage below but since only the face smacking landing can be achieved when doing that its not great against fast characters.

Also its a menace to myself when at high aura since you can't do an early gentle landing, its either smack your face to the ground or glide across the ground with your nose unless you try to land at the very end of it which is a pretty massive distance.

I have no idea what to do with this custom.
 

Pentao

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
95
#64
Playing around with Ride the Wind and Glancing Counter might be decent things to try, if only for more options when playing as Lucario.

Ride the Wind's main weakness is that it moves slower, but because you usually didn't go for the hitbox of ExtremeSpeed anyway, the reduced landing lag of Ride the Wind can be helpful since you're forced to recover from more angles anyway when using it. It also starts off with greater distance covered, so you can go deeper for edge guards/gimps earlier in %.

Glancing Counter supposedly has decent frame data. From my use of it, I can't really say I'd pick it, but it should in theory have some decent applications as an alternate type of dodging that can be done in the air. It's pretty bad for KOing though, and it has bad endlag anyway. Double Team has a place in projectile match ups at the very least, so I'd stick with DT.

I'm not really a fan of either Force Palm differences. Regular Force Palm is too important as a KO move and spacing tool. LD-FP is too slow, weak, and rids us of a good shield beating option. It still requires aura anyway. Advancing-FP is okay for some shenanigans in the neutral (and recovery I guess?) but it doesn't KO nearly as well as regular, and makes us lose a great force palm blast to space with. In some cases, it's also arguably more punishable than regular FP.

As for the choice of aura sphere... well, after playing with all three, default sphere is the best general one. Piercing and Snaring have their place, but I feel Piercing moreso than Snaring. Piercing is really fast, and surprisingly, still gets KOs off the edge due to it's very horizontal knockback. It's easier to spam too, but it's smaller than regular sphere, meaning we can't mix up with charges as much. It's at least decent as a quick way to deal some %, since Piercing can be annoying to dodge. While Snaring has a ton of cool applications, they're almost all for when we're already holding a lead, or in a favorable position. Unlike the other spheres, Snaring has a tougher time getting opponents off you or even keeping you a threat at large distances. While it can be a beastly edge guarding tool, it's so slow to throw out that it usually doesn't net you many positives in the neutral or negative. I'd say to only use Snaring when you feel comfortable fighting someone's particular style.
 

Pentao

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
95
#66
I really thinking Piercing Aura Sphere should be looked at more. It's got so much knockback on it despite the power decrease that it's stupid. It edgeguards way better than Snaring does, and while it doesn't outright KO at times, it gimps a lot of characters incredibly hard. Because it moves so fast, and recovers so fast, you can often force people to use their Up-Bs early and then get a punish on them. Being able to force an opponent to commit to a predictable move with landing lag usually means you're about to pop them like a balloon with Force Palm's grab or even an up smash.

PAS is easier to use in the neutral than regular AS is too, and you can often chuck a lot of these with less consequence. I also feels like it charges faster, just because it doesn't get as big, but it needs less of a charge to traverse the screen for punishes.

It just feels like it warrants some more experimentation.
 
Last edited:

DireWolf

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Messages
27
Location
Miami, FL
3DS FC
1822-1646-5262
#67
I really thinking Piercing Aura Sphere should be looked at more. It's got so much knockback on it despite the power decrease that it's stupid. It edgeguards way better than Snaring does, and while it doesn't outright KO at times, it gimps a lot of characters incredibly hard. Because it moves so fast, and recovers so fast, you can often force people to use their Up-Bs early and then get a punish on them. Being able to force an opponent to commit to a predictable move with landing lag usually means you're about to pop them like a balloon with Force Palm's grab or even an up smash.

PAS is easier to use in the neutral than regular AS is too, and you can often chuck a lot of these with less consequence. I also feels like it charges faster, just because it doesn't get as big, but it needs less of a charge to traverse the screen for punishes.

It just feels like it warrants some more experimentation.
PAS also makes offstage kills more feasible. You can go even deeper than usual thanks to the reduced endlag, and the increased horizontal knockback is better for getting gimps/kills off the side than regular AS.
Biggest drawback is that you can't really BRAS until ~50-60%, and even then you have to position yourself carefully (although this is slightly offset by the fact you can just toss out your AS with reduced chance of a punish).
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
Location
Unlimited Blade Works
#68
So after having a chance to toy around with Lucario's customs, I've collected some thoughts.

Firstly, Snaring Aura Sphere is terrible. The move itself could be incredible, however the amount of recovery time on the move itself once fired is too long. Quite unfortunate.

Advancing Force Palm is legitimately good in my opinion. It has combo application at low %, and the kill power with Aura on the command grab is still really, really good. Given the distance it covers and how it is able to punish rolls well, as well as capitalize on openings, I think it is very good. The trade off to the regular Force Palm is whether or not you need/want the laser at higher % in certain match ups. Against characters like Captain Falcon who are strong zone breakers, AFP is the pragmatic choice as the laser is often unsafe and can lead to punishment, while AFP can allow you to keep up with their faster game.

Glancing Counter I think might have niche use in certain match ups. I suspect it might be useful against Fox's Jab combo we can't escape normally, though I would need proper testing.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Messages
565
Location
Pennsylvania
3DS FC
4441-9316-1706
NNID
Quickbobhero
#69
Someone who wants to get better with Lucario and try to pick him up after the claims of people saying he's low tier here. I want to see what custom moves are best so I can experiment for myself how Lucario works in this new meta. What would you guys say is the best "standard" custom set? What I mean by that is a set that is generally neutral and is great for just experimenting on match-ups? I'm guessing something on the lines of 3111 as it's essentially the same as default but with a faster Aura Sphere making it easier to land.

2213 is the set I'm currently training with, and I find it to be really fun. Landing a Snaring Aura Sphere lets you combo into Dashing Force Palm and it just feels so satisfying to land and I can see it work well. However, I've heard that Snaring Aura Sphere isn't good even as an edge-guarding tool, is Snaring Aura Sphere that bad?
 
Last edited:

Pentao

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
95
#70
I personally don't like Snaring, but as with all customs, it's a matter of preference. I feel like it's too slow on recovery, and as a projectile. It has to be used very differently from the other spheres. If you're good at mixing people up with it, by all means. Piercing and Standard both are pretty good, and Piercing means you can camp out Link/Toon Link (kills bombs, arrows, boomerangs even uncharged at 0%), which is pretty funny. It also destroys Pikachu's thunder jolt/wave, and pretty much every other projectile in the game without you needing to have high aura to trump things in terms of priority.

The knockback angle of the spheres is also pretty different. Snaring is almost purely vertical, Standard is diagnol, and Piercing is nearly pure horizontal.

I don't like Advancing FP too much because I really like the FP Blast at higher percents, and the raw kill power the default one has.

I'd say if your opponents are good, experiment with Ride the Wind and see if they can edge guard you/punish your landing recovery as often. I feel like despite Ride the Wind's low speed, it's pretty easy to maneuver, gives you a lot of distance to alter your trajectory and also gives you the potential to accidentally curve so hard you kill yourself.

Glancing is usable, but it's still not a great move. Though between DT and Glancing, you mainly want DT when you have an opponent with counter-bait things, like Olimar's Pikmin. Glancing is useful against anticipating grabs, but it's not phenomonal or anything. You could always spot dodge too.

I play around with 3122 usually.
 

Pentao

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
95
#71
I personally don't like Snaring, but as with all customs, it's a matter of preference. I feel like it's too slow on recovery, and as a projectile. It has to be used very differently from the other spheres. If you're good at mixing people up with it, by all means. Piercing and Standard both are pretty good, and Piercing means you can camp out Link/Toon Link (kills bombs, arrows, boomerangs even uncharged at 0%), which is pretty funny. It also destroys Pikachu's thunder jolt/wave, and pretty much every other projectile in the game without you needing to have high aura to trump things in terms of priority.

The knockback angle of the spheres is also pretty different. Snaring is almost purely vertical, Standard is diagnol, and Piercing is nearly pure horizontal.

I don't like Advancing FP too much because I really like the FP Blast at higher percents, and the raw kill power the default one has.

I'd say if your opponents are good, experiment with Ride the Wind and see if they can edge guard you/punish your landing recovery as often. I feel like despite Ride the Wind's low speed, it's pretty easy to maneuver, gives you a lot of distance to alter your trajectory and also gives you the potential to accidentally curve so hard you kill yourself.

In all honesty, ExtremeSpeed Attack is usable, but I'm having a really hard time finding a time where I'd want to use this instead of the other variants. It's recovery distance is passable, especially if you've played other characters. But it's not like you can act out of the landing absurdly fast or anything, it doesn't auto cancel, etc. The only neat thing about it is that you can extremespeed attack directly downward, snap the ledge, and pseudo spike someone at the same time.

Glancing is usable, but it's still not a great move. Though between DT and Glancing, you mainly want DT when you have an opponent with counter-bait things, like Olimar's Pikmin. Glancing is useful against anticipating grabs, but it's not phenomonal or anything. You could always spot dodge too.

I play around with 3122 usually.
 
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
2,063
Location
Michigan
3DS FC
2363-5671-9607
NNID
MTInfinity
#74
Against speedsters the auto counter may be good since invincibility starts on frame 3 instead of DT's 4. It seems like you'll barely ever use standard DT against Falcon, anyway...

I've tried Snaring and it is just too slow... Dat endlagggg. Maybe will work against, uh Ganondorf?

Piercing is funny, but doesn't seem like it will do much other than gimp or push an opponent out if they are at the very boundary of a stage...

But yeah customs, could be better...
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,577
Location
Kansas City, MO
#75
So, how are you guys who seem unimpressed with Snaring Aura Sphere using it? My experiences with it are that if you just fire off uncharged ones a lot, especially at high aura, it's incredibly oppressive as the time them dealing with one takes is almost enough time for you to throw another which can let you spam it incredibly liberally against low mobility characters and use it a lot in general against just about everyone who can't reflect/absorb it, but if you try to charge it up a lot it pays off really poorly since the charged version is slower and mostly only good as a well spaced and timed anti-air (but it does insane damage if you connect with a high aura charged Snaring Aura Sphere, by far the fastest way Lucario can rack up damage). That's kinda backward to the thinking with other spheres, where you want to charge them up as much as you can, and I'm wondering if that is impacting people's analysis of this move which, to me, seems flat out incredible.
 
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
2,063
Location
Michigan
3DS FC
2363-5671-9607
NNID
MTInfinity
#76
So, how are you guys who seem unimpressed with Snaring Aura Sphere using it? My experiences with it are that if you just fire off uncharged ones a lot, especially at high aura, it's incredibly oppressive as the time them dealing with one takes is almost enough time for you to throw another which can let you spam it incredibly liberally against low mobility characters and use it a lot in general against just about everyone who can't reflect/absorb it, but if you try to charge it up a lot it pays off really poorly since the charged version is slower and mostly only good as a well spaced and timed anti-air (but it does insane damage if you connect with a high aura charged Snaring Aura Sphere, by far the fastest way Lucario can rack up damage). That's kinda backward to the thinking with other spheres, where you want to charge them up as much as you can, and I'm wondering if that is impacting people's analysis of this move which, to me, seems flat out incredible.
It would be an alright move, but... The cooldown makes it hard to follow up and if you miss against say someone like Falcon you may get a Knee to the face. Robin, despite low mobility can easily shoot electricity at us if we mistime it.

Another thing that would change my opinion about it is if it actually pulled characters in when charging, then we could do some trolly AS charge to JC USmash...

In my opinion I would rather even go for regular Aura Sphere against Ganondorf because you can keep him away at higher %.
 

Pentao

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
95
#77
IMO, gimping/pushing an opponent out of bounds is the reason to use Piercing period. It's not going to ever get outright KOs like standard sphere would, it just doesn't do that much pure knockback. It can, however, carry people away very easily.

On stages like Castle Siege, you have that walk-off transformation. Piercing Aura Sphere has the potential for low % kills from full screen, even despite the existence of the statues in the center. It's incredibly fast speed makes it difficult to reflect too. Pit's guardian orbitars do not come out fast enough to reflect a fully charged PAS on reaction, he has to activate them pre-emptively.

One of the main problems Piercing Aura Sphere faces are that while it eats any other projectile, it gets stopped easily by almost any A-move it clashes with. If you can punch the piercing sphere in time, it'll clank, then pass through you without hurting you. That said, it's like trying to punch a bullet since it's so fast. So, moves with long active hitboxes can keep people safe.

Another problem is that the aura spheres are smaller. Because of this, they don't snag people as well, and require more precise aim. Standard/Snaring get large enough that they're the size of some characters in the game. Piercing Spheres can be hard to hit against smaller characters like Pikachu or Kirby.

While Piercing spheres do less damage, they're a lot more spammable, and you can chuck these from across the stage repetitively. At max charge at 0%, it's only 4% damage, but it's so easy to land, it's not the biggest issue. Piercing Spheres intercept people all the time if they charge at you.

Also against slower characters, I prefer Piercing over Snaring simply because slower characters usually have awful recoveries, bar like, Charizard. If a character like Ganondorf or Bowser gets hit by Snaring, unless it kills them outright (which is difficult due to the vertical knockback against heavy characters), they don't really lose the ledge. If hit by Piercing however, it can carry them just far enough that it's literally impossible for them to recover. It's also easy to hit with since those characters have big hurtboxes. Thanks to the speed of Piercing, it's also tougher to air dodge through.



Despite my enjoyment of Piercing Aura Sphere, the standard sphere is definitely more versatile. The Aura Sphere charge shenanigans you can do for movement can't be done as easily with PAS due to the smaller sphere size. The damage build up is slower, meaning standard sphere has greater returns most of the time. Off-stage gimping/KOs can also be done with regular spheres. Though it's slower, it's also bigger, clipping a lot of characters in the head and, thanks to higher KO power, outright ends people.
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,496
Location
Unlimited Blade Works
#78
So, how are you guys who seem unimpressed with Snaring Aura Sphere using it? My experiences with it are that if you just fire off uncharged ones a lot, especially at high aura, it's incredibly oppressive as the time them dealing with one takes is almost enough time for you to throw another which can let you spam it incredibly liberally against low mobility characters and use it a lot in general against just about everyone who can't reflect/absorb it, but if you try to charge it up a lot it pays off really poorly since the charged version is slower and mostly only good as a well spaced and timed anti-air (but it does insane damage if you connect with a high aura charged Snaring Aura Sphere, by far the fastest way Lucario can rack up damage). That's kinda backward to the thinking with other spheres, where you want to charge them up as much as you can, and I'm wondering if that is impacting people's analysis of this move which, to me, seems flat out incredible.
It doesn't really matter if you use the charged or uncharged variant. The recovery time after the sphere is fired is much too long, limiting its use to basically just ledge guarding tactics, which the regular Aura Sphere already does pretty nicely.

I tested Gancing Counter against Fox's Jab - Jab, and it works consistently at lower % and at higher % if they screw up.

Piercing Aura Sphere is really nice against certain characters like Falcon who have recoveries prone to abuse since the angle it sends you is so bad. Even with DI the angle makes it hard to come back when Lucario is at higher %. I definitely think this move is worthwhile against certain match ups.

The only custom moves worth the slots are Piercing Aura Sphere, Advancing Force Palm, and Glancing Counter. They have legitimate uses in specific match ups. The others are pretty inferior.
 

Ryusuta

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Messages
3,959
Location
Washington
3DS FC
5000-3249-3643
#79
To me, the long-range Force Palm is pretty much a straight upgrade. Not only does it cover a much better distance at a minimal expense, but the command grab send enemies farther and at a lower angle. Simply the best option all around.

The rest of them I keep default, as none of the other customs seem especially worthwhile to me.
 

Pentao

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
95
#80
I don't think Ride the Wind is horrendously bad. It's a lot slower than the other two extreme-speeds, but it can really throw off an opponent's timing just by virtue of it's movement speed being really different. It also gives you a very viable method of recovering on stage, as the landing lag isn't nearly as awful as regular extremespeed. You don't often aim for the opponent with regular e-speed anyway, and you can get some pretty amusing curves out of RtW. You can almost always curve into the stage to get that "bounce" effect and recover faster than you would have if you missed the ledge with standard e-speed. It's not stellar or anything, but if nothing else, it can be useful for extra control, like training wheels.

To me, the long-range Force Palm is pretty much a straight upgrade. Not only does it cover a much better distance at a minimal expense, but the command grab send enemies farther and at a lower angle. Simply the best option all around.

The rest of them I keep default, as none of the other customs seem especially worthwhile to me.
From what I can tell, LR-FP is slower than regular force palm on start up (on both the blast and command grab), and that's just unacceptable when it can be challenging enough to land a command grab. The range increase feels like it only matters at high aura, and regular FP-flame goes pretty far already. Also, dunno if the other FP-blasts work this way, but the damage decreases the further out the flame goes, so spacing it perfectly will actually net less damage.

Still, maybe I'm not giving it a fair shake, I'll try it out more on Anther's Ladder or something.
 
Top